michgtrialtranscriptsday 6 part 1 of 3 regnerus

8/12/2019 MichgTrialTranscriptsDay 6 Part 1 of 3 Regnerus

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I N D E X


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I N D E X

STATE DEFENDANTS CASE

Pr el i mi nar y Mat t er s 4

WI TNESS: PAGE:

MARK REGNERUS, Ph. D.

Cr oss- Exami nat i on by Ms. Cooper 10

E X H I B I T S

RECEI VED:

None.


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BENCH TRI AL - VOLUME 6 - PART A TUESDAY, MARCH 4 TH, 2014

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cont ent t hat was never i n Dr . Pr i ces exper t r epor t . So I1

am r equest i ng of t he Cour t one of a number of r emedi es:2

Ei t her t hat t he Cour t st r i ke t he power poi nt and not per mi t3

t hat t o be used or t hat Dr . Pr i ce i nst ead of t est i f yi ng4

af t er Dr . Regner us whi ch I t hi nk ever ybody assumes wi l l be5

t oday t hat he not t est i f y unt i l t omor r ow whi ch woul d gi ve6

me an oppor t uni t y t o r evi ew al l t hi s mat t er . Or i n t he7

al t er nat i ve gi ve an ext ensi ve, a l engt hy, l engt hy r ecess8

f ol l owi ng Dr . Regner us t est i mony so t hat I have an9oppor t uni t y t o r evi ew al l t hi s because t hi s i s a l ot of 10

mat er i al and I ve never seen i t bef or e. Obvi ousl y at 10: 3011

at ni ght , you know, I was goi ng t o bed.12

THE COURT: Goi ng t o bed. Thi s i s an i mpor t ant13

case.14

MS. NESSEL: I know.15

THE COURT: Wai t a mi nut e.16

MS. NESSEL: I haven t had an oppor t uni t y t o - -17

THE COURT: Ten t hi r t y, you r e suppose t o t ake18

your No- Doze.19

MS. NESSEL: I know. I f i t was over t he count er ,20

t hen, yes.21

So t hose ar e my r equest s t o t he Cour t , your22

Honor .23

THE COURT: What does t he St at e have t o say?24

MS. HEYSE: Good mor ni ng, your Honor .25

12- 10285 DEBOER, ET. AL. V SNYDER, ET. AL.


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I m happy t o addr ess t hi s but bef or e I do I j ust1

want t o t ake a br i ef moment .2

Your Honor had asked me t o i nt r oduce member s of 3

our s t af f .4

THE COURT: I di d.5

MS. HEYSE: They wer e abl e t o come t o cour t .6

THE COURT: Pl ease do.7

MS. HEYSE: I do want t o poi nt out t hat one of our8

newest Ass i st ant At t or ney Gener al i s Scot t Shi mkus who i s9i n t he cour t r oom her e t oday.10

THE COURT: Ni ce t o see you.11

MS. HEYSE: He has been a t r emendous hel p t o t he12

t eam i n pr epar i ng f or t he case so I di d want t o acknowl edge13

hi m.14

THE COURT: Good t o have you. We r e t r yi ng t o get15

ever ybody acknowl edged.16

MS. HEYSE: Thank you, so much f or t hat17

oppor t uni t y, your Honor .18

And, agai n, I m happy t o addr ess Ms. Nessel s19

r equest s. She i s absol ut el y r i ght t hat we wer e unabl e t o20

get her t he power poi nt unt i l l at er i n t he eveni ng21

yest er day. I don t di sput e t hat . The f act of t he mat t er i s22

t hat we l ef t her e, we went t o meet wi t h our wi t ness who23

came i n f r om out of st at e, was abl e t o go over t he power24

poi nt wi t h hi m, and f i nal i ze i t so we coul d get t hem t he25



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f i nal ver s i on.1

J ust t o r epr esent t o your Honor , i t cer t ai nl y2

wasn t anyt hi ng t hat was pur posef ul on our par t . We got t o3

i t as I r epr esent ed yest er day, got i t t o her as soon as we4

possi bl y coul d.5

I woul d poi nt out j ust a f ew t hi ngs, your Honor ,6

wi t h r egar d t o t hi s mat t er . I t i s demonst r at i ve evi dence.7

Ever yt hi ng t hat i s i n t hat power poi nt and I won t di sput e8

t he f act t hat t her e ar e qui t e a f ew sl i des. Ever yt hi ng t hat9i s i n t hat power poi nt i s ei t her cont ai ned i n Dr . Pr i ce s10

r epor t or hi s ar t i cl e t hat i s goi ng t o be admi t t ed. Agai n,11

i t s demonst r at i ve so we r e not movi ng f or admi ssi on, i t s12

j ust somet hi ng he s goi ng t o be di scussi ng dur i ng hi s13

t est i mony.14

I al so poi nt out f or your Honor t hat , you know,15

we ve had si mi l ar exper i ences wi t h pl ai nt i f f s i n t hi s16

mat t er as wel l . We had some l ast mi nut e changes f r om t hem17

wi t h r egar d t o t wo power poi nt s t hat we j ust br i ng t o t he18

Cour t s at t ent i on because qui t e f r ankl y t hese t hi ngs j ust19

happen i n t r i al . So, you know, we woul d ask t hat we be20

al l owed t o use t he power poi nt . We cer t ai nl y don t have any21

obj ect i on i f Ms. Nessel needs addi t i onal t i me t o pr epar e.22

We have no obj ect i on t o t hat , your Honor , but we woul d ask23

t hat we be al l owed t o pr esent t he power poi nt .24

THE COURT: Okay. I t hi nk - - demonst r at i ve25



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evi dence i s j ust t hat , i t demonst r at es or hel ps t he wi t ness1

demonst r at e t o t he Cour t i n an easi er f ashi on. We had a2

pol i cy t hat each si de woul d exchange i t as soon as t hey had3

i t . Each s i de i n t hi s case has got t en al ong, t he c i vi l i t y4

i s gr eat . I have no r eason t o bel i eve t hat t he St at e di dn t5

get i t t o t hem - - t o t he pl ai nt i f f s as soon t hey coul d. So6

what we r e goi ng t o do, we l l pr oceed. I t s demonst r at i ve,7

i t s not anyt hi ng el se.8

Ms. Nessel , i f t her e comes a t i me when i t becomes9necessary t o have mor e t i me, we l l cer t ai nl y t al k about . I10

have no pr obl ems wi t h t hat . But I t hi nk - - l et s see what11

i t s al l about . As I say, we ve seen demonst r at i ve evi dence12

bef or e. And, agai n, i t s onl y t o demonst r at e and t o hel p13

t he Cour t and t hose ar e her e under st and t he t est i mony.14

I t i s l i mi t ed, however , of cour se, t o t he r epor t .15

I f i t exceeds t he r epor t t hen t her e woul d be I suspect an16

obj ect i on i ndi cat i ng t hat - - not so much demonst r at i ve17

evi dence but t he t est i mony i t sel f because t he demonst r at i ve18

evi dence i s not evi dence.19

So we l l pr oceed and t ake i t one st ep at a t i me.20

MS. NESSEL: May I j ust br i ef l y, your Honor ?21

THE COURT: Yes.22

MS. NESSEL: My onl y i ssue, your Honor , i s t hat I23

won t know t hat unt i l I see i t pr esent ed si nce I haven t24

had an oppor t uni t y t o r evi ew i t . So t hat s why I m aski ng25



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t o have some ki nd of l engt hi er r ecess so t hat I can at1

l east r evi ew t he sl i des t o know whet her t hey wer e i n t he2

r epor t or not . I t s ver y di f f i cul t as you can i magi ne t he3

second t hat i t appear s f or me t hen t o know, you know, was4

i t i n t he r epor t - -5

THE COURT: But you know - - okay. I m goi ng t o6

gi ve you some t i me. But you know, i t s i n t he r epor t . I t s7

not what s on t he scr een t hat count s, i t s what t he exper t8

t es t i f i es t o. I f he s t es t i f yi ng t o somet hi ng t o whet her i t9be on t he scr een or based upon hi s t est i mony, and i t s not10

i n hi s r epor t t hen I woul d suspect t hat you r e goi ng t o11

make an obj ect i on. You al r eady know t he r epor t I m sur e12

backwar ds and f or war ds. So you wi l l be abl e t o make t hat13

obj ect i on. I t has no bear i ng what soever t o t he14

demonst r at i ve evi dence. I t has t o do wi t h hi s swor n15

t est i mony.16

MS. NESSEL: I woul d onl y br i ng t o t he Cour t s17

at t ent i on, t her e s some ver y compl ex char t s and gr aphs wi t h18

many, many number s so I have t o be abl e t o go t hr ough t he19

number s t o - -20

THE COURT: Let s t ake i t one at a t i me. Let s21

move on.22

MS. NESSEL: Al l r i ght .23

THE COURT: We l l see. We may get a br eak and i t24

may be r i ght at t he r i ght t i me f or l unch, and we may t ake a25



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l i t t l e l onger l unch. Let s t ake a l ook. We r e not goi ng t o1

j am ei t her si de. I t hi nk each si de t hr oughout t hi s whol e2

t r i al t hei r i nt ent wasn t t o do anyt hi ng t o t he ot her si de.3

Let s move on. Anyt hi ng el se?4

MS. STANYAR: No, your Honor .5

THE COURT: Okay. Wher e s our wi t ness?6

We r e not goi ng t o r e- swear you, you r e st i l l7

under oat h.8

Counsel , you may pr oceed.9MS. COOPER: Thank you.10

THE COURT: I don t know i f t he wi t ness has met11

you.12

M A R K R E G N E R U S, PH. D. ,13

HAVI NG BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTI FI ED AS FOLLOWS:14

CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON15

BY MS. COOPER:16

Q Lesl i e Cooper .17

Good t o see you l i ve i n per son.18

Good mor ni ng.19

A Good mor ni ng.20

Doct or Regner us, you ment i oned on Di r ect Exam21

yest er day t hat you asked t wo of t he pl ai nt i f f s exper t22

wi t nesses, Mi chael Rosenf el d and Gar y Gat es t o ser ve as23

consul t ant s on your NFSS St udy; i s t hat r i ght ?24

A Yes.25



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Q And you consi der Mi chael Rosenf el d t o be wel l - r egar ded1

pr of essi onal l y; i s t hat r i ght ?2

A Yes.3

Q And you consi der Gar y Gat es t o be wel l - r egar ded i n4

l esbi an and gay demogr aphy; cor r ect ?5

A Yes.6

Q Now, t ur ni ng your opi ni ons , i t s not your opi ni on, i s7

i t , t hat chi l dr en r ai sed by same sex par ent s necessari l y8

have poor out comes; i s t hat r i ght ?9A Woul d you r est at e t hat ?10

Q Sur e. I t s not your opi ni on i s i t t hat chi l dr en r ai sed11

by same sex par ent s necessar i l y have poor out comes; i s t hat12

r i ght ?13

A Poor er out comes.14

Q Poor er out c omes.15

A That i s not my opi ni on.16

Q And you agr ee t hat t he soci al sci ence of gay par ent i ng17

based on non- pr obabi l i t y sampl es have t aught us t hat i t i s18

possi bl e f or chi l dr en r ai sed i n same sex househol ds t o19

devel op nor mal l y; i s t hat r i ght ?20

A Yes.21

Q I n f act , you wr ot e i n your - - i n one of your NFSS22

ar t i cl es t hat most of t he r espondent s i n your own NFSS23

St udy r epor t ampl e success and l ar gel y avoi d pr obl emat i c24

physi cal and emot i onal di f f i cul t i es r egar dl ess of t hei r25



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par ent s exper i ences; i s t hat r i ght ?1

A I t depends on t he di f f er ent out comes. You know, some2

out comes t hat s cer t ai nl y t r ue.3

THE COURT: Speak a l i t t l e bi t sl ower .4

BY MS. COOPER:5

Q And you have wr i t t en t hat ,6

I t s possi bl e t hat t her e may be genui nel y be t wo7

gol d st andar ds of f ami l y st abi l i t y and cont ext f or chi l dr en8

f l our i shi ng, a st abl y coupl e het er osexual househol d and a9st abl y coupl e homosexual househol d but no popul at i on base10

sampl e anal yses have yet been abl e t o consi st ent l y conf i r m11

wi de evi dence of t he l at t er ; i s t hat r i ght ?12

A Yes , pr es umi ng you r e di r ect l y quot i ng f r om - -13

Q Your r epor t .14

A The r epor t , yes.15

Q Okay. You have r ecogni zed t hat st udi es usi ng non-16

popul at i on base sampl es s uggest t hat chi l dr en i n pl anned17

gay, l esbi an, bi sexual f ami l i es seem t o f ai r compar at i vel y18

wel l ; i s t hat r i ght ?19

A Coul d you r epeat t hat once mor e?20

Q Sur e.21

MS. HEYSE: Your Honor , I woul d ask t hat i f we r e22

goi ng t o have l engt hy quot es t hat Dr . Regner us be abl e t o23

see a copy of what she s quot i ng f r om?24

THE COURT: I t hi nk he has t he r epor t .25



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MS. COOPER: Thi s was f r om t he st udy i t sel f .1

BY MS. COOPER:2

Q Do you have a copy of your NFSS St udy?3

A Fr om t he st udy i t sel f ?4

Q The st udy i t sel f ?5

THE COURT: Do you r emember what exhi bi t - -6

MS. HEYSE: Exhi bi t 6 f r om your or i gi nal ar t i cl e.7

THE COURT: Counsel , you can cont i nue t o ask hi m8

quest i ons, but j ust ki nd of r ef er hi m t o t he page.9BY MS. COOPER:10

Q Looki ng at page 766, t he concl usi on sect i on.11

A Yes.12

Q Bot t om of t he f i r s t par agr aph, i f you l l r ead wi t h me.13

You r ef er ence t hat ,14

Whi l e pr evi ous st udi es suggest t hat chi l dr en i n15

pl anned GLB f ami l i es seem t o f ar e compar at i vel y wel l : i s16

t hat r i ght ?17

A Yes.18

Q Okay. Now you al so bel i eve t hat we shoul d pr i vi l ege19

t he col l ect i on of pr obabi l i t y base dat a over ot her dat a; i s20

t hat r i ght ?21

A Yes.22

Q I n your vi ew, t he hal l mar k of a r i gor ous st udy i s a23

l ar ge r epr esent at i ve pool of par t i ci pant s dr awn f r om a24

popul at i on base r andom sampl e; i s t hat r i ght ?25



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A That s cor r ect .1

Q But you r ecogni z e t hat t hi s i s not neces sar i l y t r ue2

wi t hi n t he f i el d of psychol ogy; i s t hat r i ght ?3

A I know ps ychol ogi s t s don t pr i vi l ege t hos e ki nd of 4

sampl es i n t he way t hat soci ol ogi st s or cer t ai nl y5

demogr apher s do.6

Q And your under s t andi ng i s t hat most r esear ch i n7

psychol ogy uses smal l er non- r epr esent at i ve sampl es; r i ght ?8

A I woul dn t s peak f or al l of ps ychol ogy, but t her e ar e9pl ent y t hat pr i vi l ege smal l er sampl es f or sur e.10

Q Okay. You had your deposi t i on t aken i n J anuar y; i s11

t hat r i ght ?12

A Yes.13

Q And you have a copy of your t r anscr i pt t her e? I have14

one f or you.15

I f you t ur n wi t h me t o page 19. Li ne 19,16

begi nni ng t her e,17

Quest i on: And i s i t t r ue t hat most r esear ch i n18

psychol ogy uses smal l er non- r epr esent at i ve sampl es?19

Answer : That i s my under st andi ng. 20

Di d I r ead t hat cor r ect l y?21

A Yes.22

Q Thank you. Now, yest er day on Di r ect t est i mony you23

t al ked about your cr i t i ci sm of t he r esear ch on gay par ent24

f ami l i es t hat was di scussed i n a r epor t by t he Amer i can25



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Psychol ogi cal Associ at i on. Now t hat r epor t was i ssued i n1

2005; i s t hat cor r ect ?2

A Ri ght .3

Q And you r e awar e t hat r esear ch on chi l dr en of same sex4

par ent s di d not st op i n 2005?5

A Cor r ect .6

Q That t her e has been r esear ch conduct ed si nce t hen?7

A Yes.8

Q Now, yes ter day you t es t i f i ed t hat i t s pr emat ur e I9t hi nk i s t he wor d you used t o al l ow same sex mar r i age unt i l10

we have l ar ge scal e popul at i on base l ongi t udi nal st udi es on11

out comes f or chi l dr en of same sex coupl es; i s t hat r i ght ?12

A Yeah, and I t hi nk t he r ef er ence - - I coul d be mi s t aken13

but t he r ef er ence i s t o pr emat ur e t o set t l e t he si gns14

ar ound t hi s st uf f .15

Q Okay. You, your sel f , di d a l ar ge scal e s tudy of over16

15, 000 i ndi vi dual s i n t he NFSS; i s t hat r i ght ?17

A We scr eened 15, 000. I nt er vi ewed f ul l y j us t under18

3, 000.19

Q You woul d cal l t hat a l arge s cal e s t udy.20

A Yes.21

Q And af t er screeni ng over 15, 000 peopl e you f ound onl y22

t wo who wer e r ai sed f r om bi r t h i n a same sex par ent f ami l y;23

i s t hat r i ght ?24

A That s cor r ect .25



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Q That sampl e wasn t bi g enough t o gi ve you s t at i s t i cal1

power t o eval uat e chi l dr en r ai sed f r om t he begi nni ng i n2

same sex f ami l i es; r i ght ?3

A That i s cor r ect .4

Q You need a bi gger gr oup t o do t hat .5

A Def i ni t el y.6

Q How many peopl e do you t hi nk you woul d need t o sur vey,7

t o scr een r at her , t o get a l ar ge enough gr oup t o st udy?8

A I t depends a l i t t l e bi t on t he out come t hat you r e9eval uat i ng. I f on aver age t he out comes at f ace val ue di f f er10

mar kedl y, f or exampl e, t he sampl e - - i n adul t s whose11

mot her s have same sex r el at i onshi p, mot her s - - adul t12

chi l dr en whose mot her s had a same sex r el at i onshi p t hey13

t end t o r epor t exper i enci ng pover t y or bei ng on communi t y14

assi st ance at not abl y gr eat er r at es. I t s l i ke 70 per cent15

or somet hi ng compar ed t o cl oser t o 10 t o 20 per cent f or16

i nt act bi ol ogi cal f ami l i es. When you have a pr of ound17

di f f er ence one does not need l ot s of cases because t her e s18

al r eady a not abl e di f f er ence i n t he ef f ect . But when you r e19

det ect i ng smal l er ef f ect s t hen you need a l ar ger number of 20

cases.21

So l i ke my r ef er ence yest er day t o t he CNN pol l22

wher e i f t wo candi dat es ar e r unni ng neck and neck you need23

a l ar ger sampl e si ze t o di st i ngui sh whet her t her e s a24

st at i st i cal l y si gni f i cant di f f er ence bet ween t hose t wo. But25



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i f one i s bei ng - - i n t he ot her 70 t o 30 you don t need1

t hat many cases. But cer t ai nl y mor e t han t wo, cer t ai nl y2

mor e t han - - i deal l y wel l over - - mor e t han 50 or a 100.3

Q Okay. So i f t hey need mor e t han 50 or 100 l et s say - -4

A I deal l y. I t depends on t he out come and how di f f er ent5

t hose out comes ar e.6

Q So by my mat h t o get 50 i f your 15, 000 peopl e yi el ded7

onl y t wo t o get 50 - - you can check my mat h - - you woul d8

have t o have 375, 000 peopl e scr eened?9A I don t have t o check your mat h, but i t s - - i t s a10

l ot mor e t han 15, 000 t o scr een whi ch i ndi cat es t hat we r e11

not onl y deal i ng wi t h a smal l popul at i on among whom12

st abi l i t y was compar at i vel y r ar e i n t hat er a, but we r e13

al so - - I mean, i t cal l s f or mor e dat a anal ys i s . So t hi s i s14

why peopl e ar e i nt er est ed i n t he census and what i t has t o15

say on t hi s, or t he ver si ons of t he census, The Amer i can16

Communi t y Sur vey. But i t r ai ses an i nt er est i n new dat a17

col l ect i on.18

Q Because t he census dat a doesn t ac tual l y pr ovi de19

i nf or mat i on on chi l d out comes; r i ght ?20

A Not many.21

Q School pr ogr ess i s one.22

A Ri ght .23

Q Okay. How much di d i t cost you t o do t he pr oj ect24

sur veyi ng or scr eeni ng 15, 000 peopl e?25



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A You r e sayi ng how much di d i t cos t?1

Q How much di d i t cos t t o do t hat sur vey?2

A I t hi nk t ot al about $415, 000.3

Q So t o scr een - - your sur vey was not l ongi t udi nal ,4

r i ght i t was j ust one assessment .5

A Yes.6

Q So i f i t was - - you say 400 - -7

A Four hundr ed f i f t een i s my r ecol l ect i on.8

Q So i n or der t o screen say 375, 000 peopl e on mul t i pl e9assessment s can you even est i mat e t he cost of t hat ? I s i t10

i n t he t ens of mi l l i ons of dol l ar s t o f und t hat ?11

A I can t of f hand es t i mat e, but i t s not s omet hi ng t hat12

t he f eder al gr ant syst em can t handl e i f i t wi shes t o st udy13

t hi s.14

Q I s i t common f or r esear ches t o get gr ant s i n t he t ens15

and mi l l i ons of dol l ar s?16

A Wel l , I know t hat t he Ad Heal t h Pr oj ect i s now on i t17

way f our or f i ve, t hat was i n t he ei ght f i gur es I know i n18

t er ms of t he gr ant . I mean, i t s unusual but i t s not19

unhear d of f or t hose l ar ge f eder al l y f unded gr ant s.20

Q And do you expect anyone woul d f und a t ens of mi l l i ons21

of dol l ar s st udy t o assess whet her chi l dr en r ai sed by same22

sex par ent s f ai r any di f f er ent l y t han chi l dr en r ai sed by23

het er osexual coupl es when t he pr of essi onal gr oups i n t he24

f i el ds of psychol ogy, soci ol ogy and pedi at r i cs have al r eady25



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sai d we have suf f i ci ent r esear ch t o answer t hi s quest i on1

and we know t he answer ?2

A One of t he t hi ngs I t hi nk i t ought t o be added t o i s3

ei t her an exi st i ng or an upcomi ng l ar ge f eder al gr ant and4

t her e s a handf ul of t hem out t her e at any gi ven t i me. I m5

not awar e of what s out t her e r i ght now. I t coul d be t acked6

ont o an exi s t i ng chi l dr en s s tudy. So i t s not - - f or al l I7

know i t coul d be i n t he wor ks, but I m unawar e of i t .8

Q So i n your opi ni on - - or i s i t your opi ni on t hat i f 9t he t ype of st udy you descr i be, a nat i onal l y r epr esent at i ve10

l ar ge scal e, l ongi t udi nal s t udy i f t hat t ype of s t udy i s11

never done because i t s cost pr ohi bi t i ve i s i t your vi ew12

t hat we shoul d j ust never al l ow same sex coupl es t o mar r y?13

MS. HEYSE: Obj ect i on, your Honor . Cal l s f or14

specul at i on.15

THE COURT: He s an exper t . He can t est i f y.16

A Wel l , t her e ar e ot her as pect s t o cons i der i ncl udi ng17

sci ent i f i c aspect s. I ment i oned i n a deposi t i on and I t hi nk18

I ment i oned yest er day t hat mar r i age hi st or i cal l y i s about19

expect at i on of per manence, f i del i t y, and gener al l y openness20

and wel comi ng of chi l dr en. Sci ent i f i cal l y and st udi es t hat21

we t al ked about yest er day per manence i s - - per manence i s22

l ess common especi al l y i n househol ds of t wo women.23

Expect at i ons of f i del i t y ar e l ess common i n househol ds of 24

t wo men sci ent i f i cal l y. And t hen you l ook at t he wel comi ng25



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of chi l dr en and t hat s when we get i nt o t al ki ng about1

expect at i ons - - assi st ed r epr oduct i ve t echnol ogy whi ch i s2

ver y expensi ve and l ess expect ed among peopl e of l ower3

means. So i t s not j ust about sci ence ar ound chi l d4

out comes. I t s al so a sci ence ar ound common expect at i ons5

and mar r i age.6

Q So ei t her i f we had t he t ype of s t udy you woul d7

r equi r e t hat st i l l woul dn t be - - t hat woul dn t answer t he8

quest i on and al l ow you t o suppor t same sex mar r i age.9A Ther e ar e mor e as pect s t o i t t han j us t a l arge chi l d10

out come st udy f or sur e.11

Q Now, I want t o go back t o your st at ement t hat t her e12

may be t wo gol d st andar ds of f ami l y st abi l i t y and cont ext13

f or chi l dr en f l our i shi ng, a st abl y coupl ed het er osexual14

househol d and a st abl y coupl ed homosexual househol d but no15

popul at i on base sampl e anal yses have yet been abl e t o16

consi st ent l y conf i r m wi de evi dence of t he l at t er . That was17

your st at ement i n your r epor t ; r i ght ?18

A Yes.19

Q Now, ar e t her e popul at i on base s tudi es t hat20

consi st ent l y conf i r m t hat chi l dr en of l ow i ncome coupl es21

devel op as wel l as chi l dr en of hi gher i ncome par ent s?22

A I m goi ng t o as k you t o r epeat t hat one.23

Q Sur e. Ar e t her e popul at i on base s tudi es that24

consi st ent l y conf i r m t hat chi l dr en of l ow i ncome coupl es25



21/91


21

devel op as wel l as chi l dr en of hi gher i ncome coupl es?1

MS. HEYSE: Obj ect i on, your Honor . That s out si de2

t he scope of hi s r epor t .3

THE COURT: Agai n, he s an exper t and i t s cr oss-4

exami nat i on. I f he knows.5

A I nsof ar as I know, yes.6

BY MS. COOPER:7

Q Conf i r mi ng t he equal l y good out comes of chi l dr en of 8

l ow i ncome and hi gh i ncome par ent s?9A Conf i r mi ng t hat , no. I mean - - t ypi cal l y10

di st i ngui shi ng t hat t her e ar e di f f er ences.11

Q Ri ght . So, i n f act , s t udi es s how t he oppos i t e. I t12

doesn t conf i r m t hat t hey ar e doi ng equal l y wel l , i t13

conf i r ms t hat chi l dr en r ai sed by l ow i ncome par ent s don t14

on aver age devel op as wel l .15

A That s what I m agr eei ng wi t h.16

Q Okay. Ar e t her e popul at i on base s tudi es t hat17

consi st ent l y conf i r m t hat chi l dr en of non- col l ege educat ed18

par ent s devel op as wel l as chi l dr en of col l ege educat ed19

par ent s?20

A I know l ess about t hat , but on aver age I woul d expect21

t her e t o be di f f er ences.22

Q Ri ght . St udi es act ual l y show t he oppos i t e t hat ki ds of 23

non- col l ege educat ed par ent s don t devel op as wel l as24

chi l dr en of col l ege educat ed par ent s.25



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A Typi cal l y i nsof ar as i t s associ at ed wi t h soci al cl ass1

and l i f e chances f or chi l dr en.2

Q But you don t f avor excl udi ng l ow educat ed coupl es3

f r om mar r i age; i s that r i ght ?4

MS. HEYSE: Obj ect i on, your Honor . That s not5

r el evant t o t hese pr oceedi ngs.6

THE COURT: Over r ul ed. Agai n, i t s cr oss-7

exami nat i on.8

A I do not .9BY MS. COOPER:10

Q And you don t f avor excl udi ng l ow i ncome peopl e f r om11

mar r i age; i s t hat r i ght ?12

A I do not .13

Q So i t i s not your vi ew t hat mar r i age shoul d be l i mi t ed14

t o t hose gr oups whose chi l dr en ar e st at i st i cal l y most15

l i kel y t o have posi t i ve chi l d devel opment out comes.16

A Can you say t hat agai n?17

Q I t i s not your vi ew, i s i t , t hat mar r i age shoul d be18

l i mi t ed t o t hose gr oups whose chi l dr en ar e st at i st i cal l y19

most l i kel y t o have posi t i ve out comes?20

A Cor r ect , i t s not .21

Q And i t i s not your opi ni on t hat gr oups t hat ar e known22

f r om t he sci ent i f i c resear ch t o r ai se chi l dr en who f ai r23

mor e poor l y shoul d be excl uded f r om mar r i age.24

A Ri ght .25



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Q But i n your vi ew because t her e ar e, quot e, out s t andi ng1

quest i ons about whet her chi l dr en devel op as wel l i n same2

sex househol ds compar ed t o opposi t e househol ds t hat same3

sex coupl es shoul d not be al l owed t o mar r y?4

A I t s my vi ew t hat t he sci ence her e i s ver y new wher eas5

t he sci ence ar ound t hese ot her quest i ons you ve asked i s6

not abl y ol der . So t her e s an i nt el l ect ual debat e goi ng on7

t hough peopl e woul d l i ke t o cl ose i t qui ckl y, I t hi nk i t8

shoul d st i l l be open and i t shoul d be f ur t her i nvest i gat ed9about t he no di f f er ences debat e. But as I ment i oned j ust a10

l i t t l e bi t ear l i er i t doesn t t ackl e t he ques t i on of t he11

hal l mar ks, t he hi st or i c hal l mar ks of mar r i age.12

Q And t hat s a s epar at e i s sue. We l l got t o t hat .13

MS. HEYSE: I m goi ng t o obj ect , your Honor . He14

shoul d be abl e t o f i ni sh hi s r esponse.15

THE COURT: He may compl et e hi s answer .16

A I mean, i t s not j us t about t he s ci ence ar ound chi l d17

out comes. I t s al so t he sci ence ar ound l ongst andi ng18

expect at i ons ar ound mar r i age.19

BY MS. COOPER:20

Q So gi ven - - you ment i oned t hat t he r esear ch on l ow21

i ncome and l ow educat ed coupl es i s mor e l ongst andi ng, t hat22

r esear ch act ual l y conf i r ms poor out comes but you don t23

f avor excl udi ng t hose gr oups.24

A Ri ght .25



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Q Okay.1

A I t s a f unct i on of sor t - - t hey r e mor e i n l i ne wi t h2

t he l ongst andi ng cr i t er i a ar ound mar r i age especi al l y t o t he3

i dea t hat mar r i age uni t es man and woman and t he4

expect at i ons ar ound chi l dr en because I t hi nk st i l l t oday5

hal f of al l chi l dr en t hat ar e bor n ar e unpl anned. And6

mar r i age f or a ver y l ong t i me has s er ved t o uni t e t he7

par ent s, t he bi ol ogi cal par ent s of chi l dr en i n a uni on t hat8

wi l l be pr ot ect i ve of t hat chi l d wher eas - - I mean - -9MS. COOPER: Your Honor , i t s non- r esponsi ve t o10

t he quest i on.11

THE COURT: Ther e s no quest i on.12

MS. COOPER: Thank you.13

BY MS. COOPER:14

Q Now, i n your opi ni on and I t hi nk t hi s was your15

ul t i mat e opi ni on i n your exper t r epor t and I m happy t o16

pul l t hat out i f you need but i t s a sent ence so you t el l17

me.18

I n your opi ni on,19

I t r emai ns pr udent f or gover nment t o cont i nue t o20

r ecogni ze mar r i age as a uni on of a man and a woman t her eby21

pr omot i ng what i s known t o be an i deal envi r onment f or22

chi l dr en ; i s t hat r i ght ?23

A Yes.24

Q Okay. Now, you r ecogni ze t hat same sex coupl es have25



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chi l dr en ei t her t hr ough adopt i on or assi st ed r epr oduct i on1

i ncl udi ng i n st at es l i ke Mi chi gan wher e t hey can t mar r y.2

A Ri ght .3

Q And you r ecogni ze t hat excl udi ng same sex coupl es f r om4

mar r i age does not pr event t hem f r om havi ng chi l dr en i n5

t hese ways.6

A That i s t r ue.7

Q And you r e not awar e of any dat a showi ng t hat al l owi ng8

same sex coupl es t o mar r y r educes t he number of chi l dr en9who ar e rai sed i n het er osexual bi ol ogi cal par ent f ami l i es;10

i s t hat r i ght ?11

A I m unawar e of t hat .12

Q So, i n f ac t , you acknowl edged, di d you not t hat you13

don t act ual l y know whet her t he excl usi on of same sex14

coupl es f r om mar r i age act ual l y does anyt hi ng t o pr omot e15

what you consi der t o be t he i deal envi r onment f or chi l dr en.16

A Ri ght , we don t know except t hat i t s an open17

quest i on. Movi ng f or war d t her e s mor e dat a t o col l ect her e.18

Q But you don t know.19

A I don t know.20

Q Okay. Now I want t o ask you some quest i ons about your21

NFSS St udy. You not ed yest er day t hat t o be i ncl uded i n your22

l esbi an mot her , or gay f at her gr oups t he r espondent had23

t o af f i r mat i vel y answer t he f ol l owi ng quest i on:24

Fr om when you wer e bor n unt i l age 18 or unt i l25



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you l ef t home di d ei t her of your par ent s ever have a1

r omant i c r el at i onshi p wi t h someone of t he same sex; i s2

t hat r i ght ?3

A Yes.4

Q And j us t f or t he r ecor d i f I us e l es bi an mot her or5

gay f at her t er ms I m not usi ng t hat t o suggest anyt hi ng6

about t he sexual or i ent at i on of t he i ndi vi dual s but t hose7

ar e t he t er ms used i n t he st udy so I may use t hat i n8

shor t hand.9For exampl e, i f a r espondent r epor t s t hat her10

mot her had a r el at i onshi p wi t h anot her woman f or , say, si x11

mont hs but ot her wi se onl y had r el at i onshi ps wi t h men t hat12

i ndi vi dual woul d be put i n t he l esbi an mot her gr oup;13

r i ght ?14

A Ri ght , and i n a f ol l owup I s ai d i t woul d be bet t er t o15

t al k about t hi s cat egor y as mot her s who ve had l esbi an16

r el at i onshi ps or f at her s who had gay r el at i onshi ps.17

Q But t hi s i ndi vi dual woul d s t i l l be i n t hat c at egor y.18

A Ri ght , because t he r el at i onshi p was a same sex one.19

Q Okay. And over hal f of t he r espondent s you deemed t o20

f al l i nt o t he l esbi an mot her cat egor y never act ual l y21

l i ved i n a same sex househol d; r i ght ?22

A Wel l , t hey di dn t l i ve i n t he hous ehol d but t hei r23

mot her and her par t ner - -24

Q So t hat s yes.25



27/91


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A I don t pur por t t o know how l ong t he par t ner shi p1

l ast ed.2

Q But t hey never l i ved i n an househol d wher e t her e was3

a same sex coupl e l i vi ng.4

A Not accor di ng t o t hem, yes , cor r ect .5

Q Okay. And ver y f ew of t he r espondent s t hat you deemed6

t o be chi l dr en of a gay f at her ever l i ved i n a same sex7

coupl e househol d.8

A I n t hat er a t hat was par t i cul ar l y uncommon.9Q So t hat s cor r ect ?10

A Di d you s ay none of t hem ever - -11

Q No, no, ver y f ew.12

A Few. I want t o say 23 per cent l i ved f or some shar e of 13

a year wi t h t hei r dad and hi s par t ner .14

Q And you have not ed t hat a maj or i t y of t he r espondent s15

you deemed t o f al l i nt o t he l esbi an mot her or gay16

f at her gr oup wer e t he pr oduct of a f ai l ed het er osexual17

uni on; cor r ect ?18

A I sai d a maj or i t y, di d you say?19

Q Yes.20

A Yes.21

Q Now, your pr i mar y het er osexual par ent compar i son gr oup22

or any of your het er osexual par ent compar i son gr oups wer e23

not def i ned by aski ng t he quest i on di d your par ent ever24

have a het er osexual r el at i onshi p; r i ght ? That s not how you25



28/91


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est abl i shed gr oups.1


Q Your pr i mar y compar i son gr oup was a gr oup of 3

i ndi vi dual s who l i ved f r om bi r t h t o age 18 i n an i nt act - -4

t wo bi ol ogi cal par ent f ami l y; i s t hat r i ght ?5

A Accor di ng t o t hem, yes.6

Q Wel l , al l of t hi s i s accor di ng t o t hem.7

A Yes.8

Q And t hi s gr oup whi ch i s cal l ed i n shor t hand I BF,9i nt act bi ol ogi cal f ami l y, excl uded al l di vor ced, a s i ngl e10

par ent , het er osexual f ami l i es; r i ght ?11

A Excl uded who?12

Q Di vor ced peopl e?13

A Ri ght . I mean, t hey may have had a di vor ce bef or e t he14

chi l d came al ong. But t he chi l d exper i enced i t as an i nt act15

bi ol ogi cal f ami l y f or t he dur at i on of t hei r chi l dhood.16

Q Okay. So any chi l d who had exper i enced di vor ce was not17

i n t hat gr oup.18


Q And s i mi l ar l y any chi l d who exper i enced s i ngl e par ent20

f ami l y l i f e, t hat was st r i pped away, not i n t hat gr oup.21

A Cor r ect .22

Q Okay. So t he i dea of i nt act bi ol ogi cal f ami l y gr oup23

was def i ned by t he st abi l i t y of t he f ami l i es.24

A Yes. I di d t hat i nt ent i onal l y because st abi l i t y has25



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l ong been seen as a r esour ce. And i n a l ot of t he1

l i t er at ur e i n t hi s ar ea t he exact s t abi l i t y of t he2

compar i son gr oup was of t en uncl ear somet i mes ent i r el y.3

Hi s t or i cal l y, s t abi l i t y i s a good t hi ng, I want ed4

t o make sur e t hat we under st ood t he compar i son cat egor y was5

f ai r l y cl ear .6

Q So t hat s a yes i t was def i ned by i t bei ng a s t abl e7

f ami l y gr oup.8

A Yes.9Q Okay.10

A By t he way, we don t know how happy t hi s gr oup was. I11

di dn t make t hat - - ar e t hey t oget her .12

Q So on t he one hand you compar ed t he t wo gr oups - - t wo13

of t he gr oups i n whi ch a maj or i t y of t he i ndi vi dual s had14

been t hr ough a f ami l y br eakup. That woul d be t he l esbi an15

mot her and gay f at her gr oup. You compar ed t hem t o a16

gr oup t hat was def i ned by i t s st abi l i t y, t he i nt act17

bi ol ogi cal par ent - - sor r y, i nt ac t bi ol ogi cal f ami l y gr oup.18

A Coul d you r epeat t he f i r s t par t of t hat ?19

Q Sur e. You compar ed t wo gr oups i n whi ch t he maj or i t y of 20

t he r espondent s had been t hr ough a f ami l y br eakup. That21

woul d be t he l esbi an mot her and gay f at her gr oup. You22

compar ed t hem t o a gr oup t hat was def i ned by t he st abi l i t y23

of t he gr oup, t he i nt act bi ol ogi cal f ami l y gr oup.24

A Yes.25



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Q Okay.1

A That was not t he cr i t er i a by whi ch - - t he cr i t er i a by2

whi ch I sor t ed t hem whet her t hey had a same sex - - t he3

par ent s had a same sex r el at i onshi p.4

Q But t hat was the compar i son.5

A Yes.6

Q Now, t he t wo r espondent s i n t he l esbi an mot her gr oup7

who l i ke t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he I BF gr oup l i ved f r om8

bi r t h t o age 18 i n an i nt act st abl e f ami l y appear ed wel l9adj ust ed.10

A On aver age. I don t r ecal l t hem bei ng not abl y ei t her11

way.12

Q Yes t er day you t es t i f i ed t hey made - -13

A Yes.14

Q And you r ecogni ze t hat I t hi nk you j us t sai d a f ew15

moment s ago t hat st abi l i t y i s associ at ed wi t h bet t er16

out comes f or chi l dr en.17

A Ri ght .18

Q And di vor ce i s gener al l y assoc i at ed wi t h poor er19

out comes f or chi l dr en; i s t hat r i ght ?20

A Yes.21

Q Now, yest er day you sai d you had no i dea what t he st udy22

woul d r eveal bef or e t he dat a came i n. Ar e you sayi ng you23

r eal l y had no i dea t hat a sampl e i n whi ch most of t he24

subj ect s exper i enced a f ami l y br eakup woul d f ai r wor se t han25



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a compar i son gr oup wher e not a si ngl e one of t he subj ect s1

had exper i enced t he f ami l y br eakup because i t was def i ned2

t o excl ude t hose i ndi vi dual s?3

A What I mean by t he st at ement i s I had no i dea what t he4

- - when t he dat a was i n t he f i el d how i t woul d r et ur n i n5

t er ms of t he number of peopl e who had sai d t hei r par ent s6

had same sex r el at i onshi p or what t hei r househol d cal endar s7

woul d l ook l i ke. That s what I mean by I had no i dea.8

Q But you r ecogni ze t hat i n t he er a i n whi ch t hese9i ndi vi dual s gr ew up pl anned same sex par ent f ami l i es was10

qui t e uncommon.11

A I t was , and I ment i on t hat i n t he s t udy.12

Q Okay. Now, you sai d yes ter day I t hi nk t hat i ndi vi dual s13

i n t he l esbi an mot her gr oup had out comes t hat wer e ver y14

compar abl e t o t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he st ep f ami l y gr oup; i s15

t hat r i ght ?16

A I f t hat s what I had sai d yest er day, I t hi nk - - st ep17

f ami l y, yeah.18

Q Okay.19

A I t hi nk what I sai d was i n t he f ol l owup s tudy wher e I20

spl i t t he pi es a l i t t l e bi t mor e nar r ow t he f ewest21

di f f er ences bet ween cases wher e adul t chi l dr en had a mom or22

same sex r el at i onshi p and t hey l i ved wi t h t hei r par t ner and23

si ngl e par ent s who di d not have subsequent par t ner s. I24

t hi nk t hat was t he most cl ose equat i on t hat I ment i oned25



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yest er day.1

Q But I t hi nk you al so ment i oned t he compar i son t o st ep2

f ami l i es wer e ver y compar abl e?3

A Sl i ght l y l ess but compar abl e.4

Q Okay. Now t hat ac tual l y woul dn t be sur pr i s i ng, woul d5

i t , gi ven t hat i n al most ever y case i n t he l esbi an mot her 6

gr oup t he mot her s same sex par t ner was not an or i gi nal7

member of t he househol d. I t was a l at er f or med8

r el at i onshi p.9A Sur e.10

Q Okay. Now, you made cl ear yest er day t hat you wer e not11

maki ng any cl ai ms about causat i on r egar di ng chi l d out come12

i n t he NFSS St udy; i s t hat r i ght ?13

A Ri ght .14

Q Okay. I n f act , you agr ee t hat t he sub- opt i mal out comes15

t hat you f ound i n t he l esbi an mot her and gay f at her 16

gr oups may not be due t o t he sexual or i ent at i on of t he17

par ent ; i s t hat r i ght ?18

A Si nce I di d not measur e i t , I cannot make a cl ai m19

about i t .20

Q Okay. Now, s wi t chi ng gear s a l i t t l e bi t . I want t o21

t al k about t he pool . So t he r espondent s i n t he NFSS wer e22

ages 18 t o 39; r i ght ?23

A Yes.24

Q So t he dat a was col l ect ed i n 2011 and 2012; r i ght ?25



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A Yes.1

Q So t hat means t hey wer e bor n f r om 1972, t o 1993; t hat2

wi ndow?3

A Yes.4

Q At t he t i me t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he NFSS wer e bei ng5

r ai sed, you agr ee t hat st i gma was mor e pr onounced and6

soci al suppor t f or l esbi an and gay par ent s was f ar mor e7

modest t han i t i s t oday; i s t hat r i ght ?8

A I woul d suspect so. I di d not measur e t hat . I mean, I9measur ed how of t en t hey wer e bul l i ed, t hi ngs l i ke t hat , but10

one can pr esume so.11

Q Now, i n your ar t i cl e on t he NFSS you not ed t hat i t i s12

of t en t he case and i t cer t ai nl y i s t r ue of t he NFSS t hat a13

gay or l esbi an par ent f i r st f or med a het er osexual uni on14

pr i or t o comi ng out of t he cl oset ; r i ght ?15

A Ri ght .16

Q And you al so wr ot e t hat t he NFSS may best capt ur e what17

mi ght be cal l ed an ear l i er gener at i on of chi l dr en of same18

sex par ent s and i ncl udes among t hem many who wi t nessed a19

f ai l ed het er osexual uni on. 20

MS. HEYSE: Agai n, your Honor , I woul d j ust ask i f 21

we r e goi ng t o be r eadi ng f r om speci f i c - -22

THE COURT: I agr ee, and a l i t t l e bi t sl ower .23

MS. COOPER: Sur e, sur e.24

BY MS. COOPER:25



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Q You ve got your NFSS ar t i cl e wi t h you?1

A Yes.2

Q I f you woul d t ur n t o page 756, and i f you l ook wi t h me3

at t he bot t om par agr aph on t hat page, second sent ence.4

Today s chi l dr en of gay men and l esbi an women5

ar e mor e apt t o be pl anned ( t hat i s, by usi ng adopt i on,6

I VF, or sur r ogacy) t han as l i t t l e as 15- 20 year s ago, when7

such chi l dr en wer e mor e t ypi cal l y t he pr oduct s of 8

het er osexual uni ons. 9 You wr ot e t hat ?10

A Yes.11

Q Okay. Let s st ay on page 756. Ski p t hat .12

On page 765, i f you go t o t he t hi r d par agr aph13

f r om t he bot t om, l ast sent ence,14

Chi l d out comes i n st abl e pl anned GLB f ami l i es15

and t hose t hat ar e t he pr oduct of pr evi ous het er osexual16

uni ons ar e qui t e l i kel y di st i nct i ve as pr evi ous st udi es17

concl usi ons woul d suggest . 18

You wr ot e t hat ?19

A Yes.20

Q Okay.21

A And I f ol l owed i t up wi t h sor t of - - we don t know how22

many of t hose act ual l y ar e.23

Q You don t bel i eve t hat you can dr aw concl us i ons f r om24

your NFSS St udy about out comes f or chi l dr en i n pl anned25



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l esbi an coupl e f ami l i es ; i s t hat r i ght ?1

A I f by pl anned you mean ass i s t ed r epr oduct i ve2

t echnol ogy t hi ngs l i ke t hat , yeah.3

Q Okay. Now, t hat s f ami l i es l i ke t he pl ai nt i f f s - -4

wel l , act ual l y f ami l i es l i ke many coupl es seeki ng t o mar r y5

and f or m f ami l i es t oget her ; i s t hat r i ght ?6

A I don t pur por t t o know what s har e of t hat i s t r ue.7

Q Okay. I t hi nk you emphasi zed t hi s yest er day but I want8

t o make sur e we under st and t hat t he NFSS St udy document ed9di f f er ences s tat i s t i cal l y s i gni f i cant di f f er ences bet ween10

gr oups. I n ot her wor ds, i n t he gr oups i n t he so- cal l ed11

l esbi an mot her gr oup and t hose i n t he i nt act bi ol ogi cal12

f ami l y gr oup, but i t di d not concer n i t sel f wi t h t he13

magni t ude of t hose di f f er ences.14

A Cor r ect , and I s t at ed i n t he ar t i cl e t hat was not my15

pur pose.16

Q Now, you t al ked yest er day about t he audi t of t he NFSS17

St udy conduct ed by t he J our nal Soci al Sci ence Resear ch t hat18

- - t he j our nal t hat publ i shed t he st udy.19

A I t was aut hor i zed by t he j our nal . I t was not conduct ed20

by t he j our nal .21

Q Aut hor i zed by t he j our nal , okay. And you expr essed22

some vi ews about t he mot i ves of t he i ndi vi dual who wr ot e23

t he audi t , but one quest i on about t hi s t hat I j ust don t24

t hi nk was answer ed yest er day was - - i t was t he j our nal t hat25



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publ i shed t hat audi t ; i sn t t hat r i ght ?1

A I bel i eve so.2

Q Now, ar e you f ami l i ar wi t h a soci ol ogi s t named Paul3

Amat o?4

A Yes.5

Q He s a pr of es sor of s oci ol ogy at Penn St at e?6

A Yes.7

Q And you consi der Paul Amat o t o be a wel l - r egar ded8

schol ar i n f ami l y st r uct ur e st udi es?9A I do.10

Q You cons i der hi m t o be a l evel and l evel - headed11

schol ar ?12

A Gener al l y speaki ng.13

Q And you consi der hi m t o be a schol ar who s r i ght down14

t he mi ddl e pol i t i cal l y nei t her l i ber al , nor conser vat i ve?15

A He had s t r uck me at one poi nt . I have no i dea i f t hat16

i s ent i r el y accur at e, but he st r i kes me as a moder at e.17

Q And, i n f ac t , you asked Paul Amat o t o be one of t he18

consul t ant s on your st udy.19

A I di d.20

Q And he agr eed?21

A He di d.22

Q So he s er v ed as a cons ul t ant ?23

A Yes.24

MS. COOPER: I l i ke t o mar k a document as an25



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exhi bi t f or i dent i f i cat i on. I t s Exhi bi t 54.1

MS. HEYSE: Your Honor , I woul d j ust ask t hat we2

be pr ovi ded a copy. We have not seen i t .3

THE COURT: I t hi nk counsel as a bunch of copi es.4

MS. HEYSE: I f we coul d have a f ew mi nut es t o5

r evi ew?6

THE COURT: Sur e. Show i t t o t he wi t ness so he can7

r evi ew i t al so.8

MS. HEYSE: Your Honor , I woul d j ust not e f or t he9r ecor d t hat we di d agr ee t o exchange exhi bi t s i n advance of 10

t he t r i al and t hi s was not pr ovi ded t o us.11

THE COURT: Why was i t not pr ovi ded?12

MS. COOPER: Thi s i s bei ng used f or i dent i f i cat i on13

t o ask quest i ons, and i t was an exhi bi t t hat was used at14

t he deposi t i on, t hey have i t .15

THE COURT: Do you i nt end t o i nt r oduce i t ?16

MS. COOPER: No.17

THE COURT: Okay.18

MS. HEYSE: Oh, I m sor r y.19

THE COURT: I t s onl y f or pur poses of use, but not20

f o r - -21

MS. COOPER: Not t o admi t .22

THE COURT: Okay.23

BY MS. COOPER:24

Q So, Dr . Regner us, t hi s i s a st at ement Paul Amat o wr ot e25



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about your NFSS St udy; i s t hat r i ght ?1

A The sour ce i s a bl og. I m not sur e what al l of i t i s2

ver bat i m, Paul Amat o s wor ds, and what i s - -3

Q Wel l , I l l di r ect your at t ent i on. Thank you f or4

cl ar i f yi ng.5

A Thi s i s not Paul Amat o s bl og.6

Q Under s t ood. I f you l l r ead wi t h me. I t s ays her e - -7

THE COURT: Tel l hi m wher e you r e r eadi ng.8

MS. COOPER: I j ust want t o f i nd t he r i ght9passage.10

BY MS. COOPER:11

Q I f you l ook at t he second par agr aph f r om t he t op.12

A Fi r st page?13

Q Yes. Second sent ence,14

I r egr et t hat bef or e wr i t i ng t hat post - -15

A Who wr ot e t hat ?16

Q I l l cl ar i f y. The f i r st t hr ee par agr aphs i n I t al i cs17

ar e st at ement s f r om somebody who wr ot e t he bl og, not18

at t r i but abl e t o Paul Amat o.19

MS. HEYSE: I m goi ng t o obj ect , your Honor , t o20

t he ext ent t hi s i s hear say.21

THE COURT: I m not sur e wher e she s goi ng at .22

The f i r st t hr ee wer e not wr i t t en by - -23

MS. COOPER: I m t r yi ng t o di r ect Pr of essor24

Regner us t o t he st at ement t hat t hi s bl ogger says,25



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Ther e i s a st at ement sent t o me by Paul Amat o1

whi ch I agr ee t o post and t hen he post s t he st at ement2

bel ow.3

A And who i s he?4

THE COURT: Who i s t he bl ogger , i s t hat your5

quest i on?6

THE WI TNESS: Yes.7

MS. COOPER: The bl ogger s name i s Phi l Cohen, I8

bel i eve. Thi s i s somet hi ng we l ooked at your deposi t i on.9BY MS. COOPER:10

Q Do you not r ecal l i dent i f yi ng i t ?11

A I do, yeah. I j ust don t know - - I can t i dent i f y on12

t hi s who wr ot e t hi s t op par t .13

Q Okay. But t he par t I want t o f l ag your at t ent i on t o i s14

i n t he second par agr aph i t says - - t hi s i s not Paul Amat o,15

t hi s i s t he bl ogger ,16

I r egr et t hat bef or e - -17

MS. HEYSE: Your Honor , I m goi ng t o obj ect t o t he18

ext ent of r eadi ng somet hi ng i nt o t he r ecor d - -19

THE COURT: Sust ai ned.20

The bl ogger sai d somet hi ng and now what s your21

quest i on?22

MS. COOPER: I don t r eal l y car e what t he bl ogger23

sai d, I j ust want ed t o di r ect Pr of essor Regner us so t he24

st at ement f r om Paul Amat o t hat i s post ed her e.25



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THE COURT: Good.1

BY MS. COOPER:2

Q That begi ns,3

Thought s on t he Mar k Regner us 2012 St udy by Paul4

Amat o. 5

Do you see t hat headi ng i n bol d?6

A Yes.7

Q So t hat s the begi nni ng of t he s t at ement .8

So I d l i ke you t o t ur n t o page 3 of t hi s9st at ement .10

A Ar e t her e s 12 pages t o t hi s ? I m onl y s eei ng f our.11

Q Thi s i s t he f i r s t f our. I di dn t pr i nt t he comment s t o12

t he bl og because - - I t hi nk, i n f act , t hat may have been13

somet hi ng t hat counsel f or def endant s di d not want t o14

i ncl ude i n t he exhi bi t . But ei t her way I di d not consi der15

that .16

THE COURT: The exhi bi t i s j ust t o ask hi m17

quest i ons.18

MS. COOPER: I t s j ust t o f eat ur e t he st at ement .19

BY MS. COOPER:20

Q So i f you can go t o page 3 wi t h me.21

A Okay. I f you woul d l ook at t he second par agr aph f r om22

t he bot t om, okay, begi nni ng wi t h t he second sent ence, and23

r ead al ong wi t h me,24

Many - -25



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MS. HEYSE: Your Honor , i t s hear say and she can t1

r ead i t i nt o t he r ecor d.2

MS. COOPER: I t s not f or t he t r ut h. I want t o ask3

hi m i f he agr ees wi t h st at ement s made by one of hi s own4

consul t ant s about hi s s t udy.5

THE COURT: For t hat pur pose, you may.6

BY MS. COOPER:7

Q Many conser vat i ve obser ver s have ci t ed t he Regner us8

st udy as i f i t pr ovi ded evi dence t hat bei ng r ai sed by gay9or l esbi an par ent s i s har mf ul t o chi l dr en. Thi s cl ai m i s10

di si ngenuous because t he st udy f ound no such t hi ng. A11

not ewor t hy exampl e came f r om Regner us hi msel f who si gned an12

ami cus br i ef t o t he Supr eme Cour t ci t i ng hi s st udy as13

evi dence agai nst same sex mar r i age. Thi s i s cur i ous because14

on page 766 i n hi s 2012 ar t i cl e, Regner us st at ed t hat hi s15

st udy was not i nt ended t o ei t her af f i r m or under mi ne t he16

l egal r i ght t o same sex mar r i age. 17

And on page 768 of hi s r esponse t o t he18

comment ar i es i n t he same i ss ue, he st at ed,19

That hi s dat a shoul d not be used t o pr ess any20

pol i t i cal pr ogr am. Gi ven t hese caut i ous ear l y st at ement s i t21

i s exasper at i ng t o see Regner us l at er ci t e hi s own st udy as22

evi dence agai nst same sex mar r i age. 23

So, f i r st quest i on about t hi s: I s Pr of essor Amat o24

who i s a consul t ant on your st udy cor r ect t o say t hat i t i s25



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di si ngenuous t o cl ai m t hat t he NFSS St udy pr ovi des evi dence1

t hat bei ng r ai sed by gay or l esbi an par ent s i s har mf ul t o2

chi l dr en?3

A The quest i on hi nges ar ound sor t of what does i t mean4

t o be r ai sed by, r i ght ? And I t hi nk we ment i oned t hi s a5

l i t t l e bi t yest er day and i t says gay or l esbi an par ent s. My6

mi st ake and acr onyms not wi t hst andi ng I t al k about par ent s7

who have same sex r el at i onshi p wi t h no assumpt i ons about8

t hei r or i ent at i on. So when he t al ks about bei ng r ai sed by9whi ch i mpl i es some degr ee of t i me I assume and househol d10

pr esence I assume. But t hen he goes and uses gay or l esbi an11

as an adj ect i ve whi ch I don t t hi nk - - I mean, I don t have12

dat a on t he or i ent at i on, i t s har mf ul t o chi l dr en. I t hi nk13

t he j ur y i s out on t hi s, f i gur at i vel y speaki ng. What we14

need i s - - t he absence r ai ses si gni f i cant quest i ons about15

chi l dr en who gr ow up i n f ami l i es wher e a par ent has a same16

sex r el at i onshi p.17

What i t doesn t answer hi s quest i on about18

or i ent at i on, and i t di dn t come desi gn t o answer pol i t i cal19

quest i ons. I t came desi gn t o addr ess an i nt el l ect ual20

quest i on.21

Q Okay. So he i s cor r ect i n your vi ew t hat - - s or r y. He22

i s cor r ect t hat you sai d t he st udy was not i nt ended t o23

ei t her af f i r m or under mi ne t he l egal r i ght s of same sex24

mar r i age?25



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A That s what I wr ot e i n t he or i gi nal s t udy, yes .1

Q Okay. Okay. Gr eat .2

Now, ar e you awar e t hat yest er day t he Chai r of 3

t he Soci ol ogy Depar t ment at t he Uni ver si t y of Texas, your4

depar t ment , i ssued a st at ement post ed on i t s websi t e5

st at i ng t he f ol l owi ng:6

Li ke al l f acul t y - -7

MS. HEYSE: Obj ect i on, your Honor . Hear say.8

MS. COOPER: I m happy t o pr ovi de a copy i f you9l i ke. I m not seeki ng t o admi t i t agai n - - happy t o show a10

copy i f you don t have i t .11

MS. HEYSE: I don t have a copy.12

THE COURT: And, agai n, i t s onl y f or pur poses of 13

cr oss- exami nat i on.14

MS. HEYSE: Thank you.15

MS. COOPER: So I ve mar ked t hi s f or16

i dent i f i cat i on as Exhi bi t 55.17

BY MS. COOPER:18

Q So, i f you l l r ead al ong wi t h me, t he st at ement says,19

Li ke al l f acul t y Dr . Regner us has t he r i ght t o20

pur sue hi s ar eas of r esear ch and expr ess hi s poi nt of vi ew.21

However , Dr . Regner us opi ni ons ar e hi s own. They do not22

r ef l ect t he vi ews of t he soci ol ogy depar t ment of t he23

Uni ver si t y of Texas at Aust i n. Nor do t hey ref l ect t he24

vi ews of t he Amer i can Soci ol ogi cal Associ at i on whi ch t akes25



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t he posi t i on t hat t he concl usi ons he dr aws f r om hi s st udy1

of gay par ent i ng ar e f undament al l y f l awed on concept ual and2

met hodol ogi cal gr ounds and t hat f i ndi ngs f r om Dr . Regner us3

wor k have been ci t ed i nappr opr i at el y i n ef f or t s t o di mi ni sh4

t he ci vi l r i ght s and l egi t i macy of LBGTQ, par t ner s and5

t hei r f ami l i es. We encour age soci et y as a whol e t o eval uat e6

hi s cl ai ms. 7

Ther e s addi t i onal mat er i al but I j ust want ed t o8

cal l your at t ent i on t o t hat par agr aph.9Wer e you awar e of t hi s s t at ement ?10

A I saw i t yest er day.11

Q Okay. And what i s your r eact i on t o t hat ?12

A I t s r egr et t abl e. I t hi nk t he Uni ver s i t y has13

char act er i zed my academi c f r eedom. I guess t hey have been14

get t i ng negat i ve pr ess pr obabl y about my appear ance her e,15

and deci ded t o make a st at ement whi ch t hey had not made16

bef or e even t hough I had conduct ed t he r esear ch - - t he17

pr ocess a f ew year s ago. The ar t i cl e came out a year and a18

hal f ago. I t hi nk t hey j ust want ed t o di st ance t hemsel ves19

f r om me whi ch i s s ad. And I hear d f r om some of my20

col l eagues t hat t hi s was an i nappr opr i at e t hi ng f or t he21

depar t ment t o do.22

Q And you ar e awar e t hat The Amer i can Soci ol ogi cal23

Associ at i on di d submi t a br i ef , an ami cus br i ef i n t he U. S.24

Supr eme Cour t i n t he Wi ndsor and Per r y cases s t at i ng t hat25



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your st udy doesn t al l ow f or concl usi ons about bei ng r ai sed1

by - - t he i mpact of bei ng r ai sed by same sex par ent s; i s2

t hat r i ght ?3

A I m awar e of t hat .4

Q Okay. And I want t o swi t ch gear s away f r om NFSS now5

and your r esear ch and ask about anot her st udy.6

You r e f ami l i ar wi t h a st udy done by Dougl as7

Al l en based on t he Canadi an Census t hat l ooks at hi gh8

school gr aduat i on r at es?9A I ve r ead and I wr ot e a l i t t l e summar y pi ece about i t10

but I m not i nt i mat el y f ami l i ar wi t h t hat dat a. I t cannot11

be r epl i cat ed so f ar as I can t el l because i t was12

pr opr i et ar y t o t he Canadi an Census.13

Q Okay. You ment i oned t hat you wr ot e a l i t t l e bl og pi ece14

or a l i t t l e ar t i cl e about t hat .15

A Yes.16

Q I n t hat ar t i cl e you sai d t hat a l i mi t at i on of t hi s - -17

act ual l y, l et me show i t t o you so we don t have any18

conf usi on her e.19

The document I ve mar ked f or i dent i f i cat i on as20

Exhi bi t 56 cal l ed A Mar r i ed Mom and Dad Real l y Do Mat t er :21

New Evi dence f r om Canada t hat s t he bl og pi ece you wr ot e22

about t he Al l en st udy?23

A Yes.24

Q Okay. I f you coul d t ur n wi t h me t o t he second page.25



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I f you l ook at t he t hi r d par agr aph f r om t he bot t om, and1

r ead al ong. I t says,2

Ever y st udy has i t s l i mi t at i ons and t hi s one3

does, t oo. I t i s unabl e t o t r ack t he househol d hi st or y of 4

chi l dr en nor i s i t abl e t o est abl i sh t he ci r cumst ances of 5

t he bi r t h of t he chi l dr en whose educat i on i s eval uat ed,6

t hat i s, wer e t hey t he pr oduct of a het er osexual uni on,7

adopt ed, or bor n vi a sur r ogat e or assi st ed r epr oduct i ve8

t echnol ogy. 9 You wr ot e t hat ?10

A I di d.11

Q Okay. And you have sai d t hat you woul d bet t hat gi ven12

t he t i me per i od i n whi ch t hese 17 t o 22 year ol ds i n13

Al l en s s t udy wer e bor n t hat many of t he i ndi vi dual s who14

wer e i n t he same sex f ami l y gr oup wer e t he pr oduct of 15

f or mer het er osexual uni ons; r i ght ?16

A Di d I say t hat ? I don t t hi nk I sai d t hat .17

Q Wel l , l et s t ake a l ook at your deposi t i on.18

A I may have s ai d i t . I f you coul d poi nt t o t he page?19

Q Woul d you agr ee wi t h t hat now?20

A I f you woul d r epeat t he ques t i on.21

Q Sur e. You woul d bet t hat gi ven t he t i me per i od i n22

whi ch t he 17 t o 22 year ol ds i n Al l en s st udy wer e bor n23

many of t he i ndi vi dual s who wer e i n t he same sex f ami l y24

gr oup wer e t he pr oduct of a f or mer het er osexual uni on.25



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A I t s l i kel y gi ven t he t i mi ng.1

Q Sur e.2

A Agai n, we don t r eal l y have good dat a on sor t of ART3

i n t he past . We r eal l y don t have good dat a on i t at t he4

pr esent .5

Q Okay. But you t hi nk i t s l i kel y.6

A I t s l i kel y.7

Q And you ve sai d you suspect t hat pl anned same sex8

coupl e f ami l i es wer e not what t he Al l en st udy eval uat ed on9aver age.10

A I don t t hi nk he coul d, yeah. I mean - -11

Q Okay. Now, t her e s been a l ot of di scuss i on about12

coupl e st abi l i t y. So I want t o ask you some quest i ons about13

t hat .14

Fi r st of al l , can you t el l us gener al l y what t he15

di vor ce r at e f or het er osexual s i s i n t hi s count r y?16

A What do you mean by di vor ce r at e? Rat e per year , I17

t hi nk i t s t wo per cent per year .18

Q I s n t t he dat a over s or t of a t en- year per i od?19

MS. HEYSE: Your Honor , I m goi ng t o obj ect .20

THE COURT: Let hi m answer .21

MS. COOPER: I m sor r y. I t hought he was f i ni shed.22

My apol ogi es. Go ahead.23

A My r ecol l ect i on i s t he di vor c e r at e i s , you know, i t s24

24, 000 mar r i ed women per year .25



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BY MS. COOPER:1

Q Okay. And i s t her e dat a showi ng t he di vor ce r at e over ,2

say, you know, per cent ages of mar r i ages t hat f ai l at , say,3

f i ve year s or t en year s?4

A The Nat i onal St udy of Fami l y and Gr owt h i s abl e t o do5

i t . I ve crunched i t once. I don t r ecal l of f hand t he6

number s. But i t var i es by, you know, age at mar r i age and7

t hi ngs l i ke t hat .8

Q But as a popul at i on as a whol e l ooki ng at al l9mar r i ages you don t have a sense of what t he di vor ce r at e10

i s over - -11

A Over t en year s, i t woul d be guess wor k. Ar ound 20 t o12

30 per cent - - over f i ve year s? No, i t be over t en or 1513

year s. I t woul d r eal l y be guess wor k and i t woul d be14

i nappr opr i at e f or me t o do t hat .15

Q Okay. Now, you t al ked a l ot about t he i ssues of 16

i nst abi l i t y i n t he NFSS St udy and t he l esbi an mot her and17

gay f at her gr oups. But t her e ar e t wo concept s t hat I18

t hi nk got pot ent i al l y bl ur r ed yest er day and I want t o see19

i f we can cl ar i f y. The concept s of househol d i nst abi l i t y on20

t he one hand, and coupl e i nst abi l i t y on t he ot her . So I21

have a coupl e of quest i ons t o hel p get at t hat .22

So, I t hi nk your t est i mony made cl ear t hat23

i ndi vi dual s i n t he l esbi an mot her and gay f at her gr oups24

exper i enced si gni f i cant househol d i nst abi l i t y, you d agr eed25



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wi t h t hat ; r i ght ?1

A Ri ght .2

Q For exampl e, you not ed t hat a maj or i t y of t he3

i ndi vi dual s i n t hi s gr oup had s t ar t ed out l i f e i n a4

het er osexual mot her f at her f ami l y t hat br oke up; r i ght ?5

That s househol d i nst abi l i t y, t hat s not about coupl e6

i nst abi l i t y.7

A None of t hese ar e choi ces t hat chi l dr en make, r i ght ?8

Q Of cour se. But i s t hat cor r ect ?9A That s who we ar e i nt er vi ewi ng i s the adul t chi l dr en.10

They r e t el l i ng us who came and went .11

Q Under s tood. So, agai n, t hat exampl e, t hat i n t he12

maj or i t y of t he f ami l i es, you know, t he i ndi vi dual s i n13

l esbi an mot her and gay f at her gr oup, t he f act t hat t hey14

came f r om a pr i or het er osexual uni on t hat br oke up t hat s15

an exampl e of househol d i nst abi l i t y but not an exampl e of 16

same sex coupl e i nst abi l i t y; i s t hat r i ght ?17

A Cor r ect . I f , i n f act , t hose - - what br oke was t he18

opposi t e sex r el at i onshi p.19

Q Whi ch was a maj or i t y of t he househol d - -20

A That was t he maj or i t y of t he c i r cumst ances ar ound21

t her e or i gi ns.22

Q Okay. Now, so, f or exampl e, i n t he NFSS t he f ac t t hat23

a subj ect onl y spent say t wo year s l i vi ng i n a same sex24

househol d t hat doesn t necessar i l y mean t hat t he coupl e25



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r el at i onshi p l as t ed t wo year s ; i s t hat r i ght ?1

A That i s t r ue, al t hough I m not s ur e why, you know, a2

l i ve- i n r el at i onshi p woul d suddenl y, you know, end and t he3

par t ner woul d not be t he househol d. They may have moved,4

but I woul d pr esume most of t hem t hat when a par t ner l eaves5

t he househol d of t he mot her and her chi l d t hat t he6

r el at i onshi p has pr obabl y ceased, but I don t know t hat f or7

sur e.8

Q Now, i n some of t he cases t hat you onl y count t wo9year s of l i vi ng wi t h t he same sex par t ner because i t was a10

change of cust ody, r i ght , t he ki d went , say, t o l i ve f r om11

mom s house t o dad s house. So i n t hat par t i cul ar case t he12

coupl e may be t oget her , may not be t oget her ; i s t hat r i ght ?13

A Tr ue. That woul d r equi r e one t o go i nt o t he ac tual14

i ndi vi dual househol d r ost er s and l ook at what happened i n15

di f f er ent ki ds .16

Q But i s i t cor r ect t hat t he f act t hat a par t i cul ar17

i ndi vi dual r epor t s l i vi ng t wo year s wi t h t he same sex18

coupl e and i n some cases t hat has no bear i ng on t he l engt h19

of t i me of t he coupl e, i t may be t hat t he chi l d l ef t ;20

r i ght ?21

A I t coul d be, al t hough i t s uncommon and gener al f or a22

mot her t o l ose - - you know, cede cust ody of her chi l d some23

- -24

Q So none of t he chi l dr en i n t he NFSS St udy - -25



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A Oh, I m s ur e some of t hem di d, but I don t know how1

many.2

Q Let me s t ar t t hat agai n. Ar e you sayi ng t hat none of 3

t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he l esbi an mot her gr oup exper i enced a4

change of cust ody f r om mom s cust ody t o dad s?5

A I di dn t say t hat , no. I m j ust sayi ng i t s l ess6

common f or a mot her t o l ose cust ody i n gener al . You can t7

r eal l y t el l l ose cust ody. You j ust know t hat a chi l d l i ved8

wi t h mom or di dn t l i ve wi t h mom. The chi l d woul d r epor t as9an adul t who he l i ved wi t h at di f f er ent year s.10

Q So di d any of t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he l esbi an mot her 11

gr oup f r om t he NSFF repor t a change f r om l i vi ng wi t h mom t o12

l i vi ng wi t h dad?13

A I bel i eve t her e ar e s ome cas es . I don t r ecal l how14

many.15

Q Okay. And al so i n some cases, you know, you st opped16

count i ng when t he chi l d was 18, r i ght , so you - - t he f act17

t hat an i ndi vi dual r epor t s t hat mom s par t ner moved i n when18

t hey wer e 16 and t hen at 18 you r e done count i ng; r i ght ?19

A Ri ght .20

Q Okay. Now, t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he NSFF wer e al l r ai sed21

pr i or t o mar r i age bei ng an opt i on f or same sex coupl es22

anywher e i n t he Uni t ed St at es; i s t hat r i ght ?23

A I f we do t he mat h I guess t he youngest peopl e i n t he24

NFSS wer e 18 i n 2011. So t hey shoul d have been cases - - I25



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don t t hi nk - - I don t know t he st at e wher e t hey l i ved. But1

t her e shoul d have been cases wher e t hey l i ved i n st at es2

wher e t hei r mot her s coul d mar r i ed, r i ght ?3

Q Let me c l ass i f y because I t hi nk I can be mor e pr eci se4

i n t he quest i on.5

None of t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he NSFF wer e bor n6

i nt o f ami l i es wher e coupl es, same sex coupl es coul d have7

been mar r i ed; i s t hat cor r ect ?8

A That i s cor r ect .9Q Okay. And you agr ee t hat mar r i age hel ps pr omot es10

st abi l i t y among het er osexual coupl es.11

A I n gener al I t hi nk i t r ef l ect s st abi l i t y. Peopl e who12

wi sh t o make t hei r uni on secur e seek mar r i age. And mar r i age13

gener al l y speaki ng ent ai l s - - r ef l ect s some secur i t y and i t14

ent ai l s some secur i t y and put s up some bar r i er s t o br eak15

up.16

Q So i t does hel p st abi l i ze coupl es.17

A Concept ual l y, yes.18

Q Concept ual l y.19

A Yes.20

Q I n r eal i t y do you know?21

A Ther e s somet hi ng cal l ed sel f - sel ect i vi t y l i ke t he22

ki nds of peopl e who mar r y ar e t he ki nd of peopl e who ar e23

mor e apt t o st ay t oget her anyway. But gener al l y speaki ng24

i t s under st ood t hat mar r i age bot h r ef l ect s and f ost er s25



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secur i t y.1

Q Okay. So i t r ef l ect s - - s el ect s f or s t abl e coupl es and2

al so f os ter s s t abi l i t y i n t hose coupl es ; i s t hat r i ght ?3

A Yes.4

Q Okay. And you have sai d you woul d expect gr eat er5

st abi l i t y among mar r i ed gay and l esbi an coupl es t han t hose6

even i n ci vi l uni ons ; i s t hat r i ght ?7

A Can you poi nt t o wher e I s ai d t hat ?8

Q Sur e. Do you have your r epor t ?9A The r epor t ? I don t t hi nk I have t he r epor t .10

Q I wi l l mar k t hi s as 57. Agai n f or i dent i f i cat i on onl y.11

I f you l l t ur n wi t h me t o par agr aph 49 of your12

r epor t . I t s on page 13.13

A Okay.14

Q Now, j us t t o gi ve t he cont ext t he pr evi ous par agr aph15

you l l see i s r ef er enci ng a wor k by Mi chael Rosenf el d, a16

st udy by Rosenf el d. I n 49 you say,17

I n t hat st udy t he hi ghest st abi l i t y r at es appear18

among het er osexual mar r i ed coupl es whi l e not abl y bet t er19

st abi l i t y i s l ocat ed among mar r i ed, gay and l esbi an coupl es20

t han among t hose i n ci vi l uni ons as woul d be expect ed. 21

You wr ot e t hat ?22

A Yes.23

Q Okay.24

A Whi ch i s a r ef l ect i on of peopl e who wi sh t o have25



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r el at i onal st abi l i t y t ended t o t r ack t owar ds, you know,1

gr eat er l egal s t abi l i t y.2

Q But f or het er os exual s you r ecogni z e t hat i t s not j us t3

t he mat t er of sel ect i ng t he most st abl e, mar r i age al so4

hel ps f os t er s t abi l i t y.5

A On aver age, yes.6

Q Okay. Now, you ment i oned yest er day t hat i n t he NFSS7

t he househol d r ost er s, t hose ar e t he cal endar s t hat you8

t al ked about , r i ght , t hey ar e compl i cat ed not j ust among9t he i ndi vi dual s i n t he l esbi an mot her and gay f at her 10

gr oup but al so i n ot her gr oups l i ke t he st ep f ami l y gr oup11

and si ngl e par ent f ami l y gr oup; i s t hat r i ght ?12

A Yes.13

Q So t her e was i ns t abi l i t y f or t hos e i ndi vi dual s as14

wel l ?15

A Yes.16

Q So t her e was i nst abi l i t y i n al l t he gr oups i n t he17

st udy except f or t he one t hat was def i ned by t he st abi l i t y18

t hat woul d be t he i nt act bi ol ogi cal f ami l y gr oup.19

A Ri ght .20

Q Okay. Now, you t al ked yest er day about your deci si on21

not t o cont r ol f or f ami l y i ns t abi l i t y, t hat you di dn t22

t hi nk i t was appr opr i at e t o do t hat , but you di d23

ef f ect i vel y cont r ol f or st abi l i t y among t he excl usi vel y24

het er osexual par ent gr oups by cr eat i ng t he i nt act25



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bi ol ogi cal f ami l y gr oup; r i ght ? You separ at ed out al l t he1

st abl e ones.2

A I di dn t cont r ol f or i t . I t i s r ef l ect ed i n t he3

cat egor y.4

Q Okay. St i l l t al ki ng about t he t opi c of coupl es5

st abi l i t y yest er day you ci t ed some dat a f r om t he UK wher e6

you sai d I t hi nk t her e wer e hi gher di ssol ut i on r at es of 7

ci vi l par t ner shi ps of l esbi ans compar ed t o gay men - -8

A Yes ter day, I don t sayi ng anyt hi ng about t he UK 9yest er day.10

Q Oh, okay. I t hought you di d. My not es may be bad.11

You al so t al ked yest er day about Mi chael12

Rosenf el d s s t udy on school pr ogr ess usi ng t he US Census;13

r i ght ?14

A Yes.15

Q And you i dent i f i ed t hi s st udy as r el evant t o coupl es 16

st abi l i t y I t hi nk t he l anguage you used, you sai d t he st udy17

cont r ol l ed t he way i nst abi l i t y.18

A Cont r ol l ed f or , yes.19

Q But j us t t o cl ar i f y what he cont r ol l ed f or was whet her20

t he chi l d ac tual l y l i ved i n t he par t i cul ar f ami l y s t r uctur e21

at i ssue dur i ng t he past f i ve year s; r i ght ?22

A Ri ght .23

Q He di dn t act ual l y cont r ol f or coupl e br eakups .24

A Ri ght .25



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Q I mean, t he Census dat a doesn t pr ovi de t hat1

i nf or mat i on; does i t ?2

A So f ar as I know.3

Q Okay. Now, you r ai sed t he i s sue of s t abi l i t y i n same4

sex coupl e r el at i onshi ps but I t hi nk you st ar t ed t o t ouch5

on i t bef or e t hat t her e s a var i et y among gr oups i n t he6

Uni t ed St at es about di vor ce r at es when I asked you a7

quest i on about t he di vor ce r at e.8

A Yes.9Q So, f or exampl e, t her e ar e di f f er ences i n di vor c e10

r at es associ at ed wi t h r ace?11

A Gener al l y speaki ng, yes.12

Q Di f f er ent r aci al gr oups have di f f er ent r at es of 13

di vor ce.14

A Ri ght .15

Q So i s i t cor r ect t hat Af r i can- Amer i cans have a hi gher16

r at e of di vor ce t han ot her r aci al gr oups?17

A On aver age.18

Q And i t i s cor r ect t hat i nt er r aci al coupl es have hi gher19

r i sk of di vor ce t han same r ace coupl es?20

A On aver age al t hough I m not ent i r el y - - I mean, I m21

l ess cl ear wi t h t hat .22

Q Okay. And I t hi nk you ment i oned yest er day t hat23

r emar r i ages by what - - I under st ood i t means second24

mar r i ages?25



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A Yes.1

Q That r emar r i ages f ai l at a hi gher r at e t han f i r s t2

mar r i ages.3

A Cor r ect .4

Q Do you f avor excl udi ng Af r i can- Amer i cans f r om mar r i age5

based on t he el evat ed r at e of di vor ce i n t hat gr oup?6

A I don t .7

Q I n f act , i f t her e wer e popul at i on base dat a showi ng8

t hat Af r i can- Amer i cans had a br eakup r at e t hat was hi gher9t han t hat of same sex coupl es you woul d not f avor excl udi ng10

Af r i can- Amer i cans f r om mar r i age.11

MS. HEYSE: Obj ect i on, your Honor . Cal l s f or12

specul at i on.13

THE COURT: He s an exper t . He can answer i f he14

has an opi ni on.15

A I don t .16

BY MS. COOPER:17

Q Okay. And do you f avor excl udi ng peopl e who have18

pr evi ousl y al r eady been mar r i ed and di vor ced f r om19

r emar r yi ng gi ven t he el evat ed r at e of di vor ce f or20

r emar r i ages?21

A I have no s t r ong opi ni on on t hat . I t end t

michgtrialtranscriptsday 6 part 1 of 3 regnerus

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