Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 22 JULY 1913

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Ekctions Acts Amendment Bill. (22 JULY.] Personal Explanation. 583

TUESDAY, 22 JULY, 1913.

The SPEAKER (Hen. W. D. Armstrong, Lockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

AUDITOR-GENJ'RAL'S REPORTS.

The SPEl·.KER announced th,,: receipt ..,f the following report. from the Auditd­C'eneral:-

Half-yearly report, date;d 17th July, 1913, on Treasury bills and notes.

Half-yearly repoxt, d ,ted 18th July, 1913, on the public debt reduction fund.

Ordered to be print• d.

PER~ONAL EXPL.\N.ATION.

Tho PREMIER (Eon. D. F. Denham, Oxley) : I desire to make a personal explana­tion.

The SPEAKER : Is it the pleasure of ths Hou ·e that the Chief Secretary be allowed to make a personal explanation?

HoNOURABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear !

The PRE:r\1IER: Hen. members. on \Ved­nrsday last, when the hDn. member for Forti­tude Valley suggested that a Parliamentary Committee be appointed tQ invc"tigatc his charges ugain<t tlw firm of Denham Brothers, I saw no objection tu that course. I was aJ:,•) preparPd to t:->ncur in his proposal that the Committee should be cJmposed equally of .tl<mbers ·deckd from the Go.vernment side • of the House by him, and from the Oppo­sition side by me. But, l , fore taking definite steps in that directi• :~, I thought it my c'•l' to subr)cit the r·ropc, :tl to my legal advE~rs, I'rl•"··n·~;. ..._-\tt!IO\Y anr1, ~fcGre;c:or, bec..tv ~e tLJ ITI'ltt~ r \' ..ts t-h,::n ::-:b iudice, being the subject of t.n a. tion in thP i:luprcme C>urt. Thev havo advis"J m·c tL1t an invcsti­::ction by the House oJ thP very sa:tle issue ' l.ic'r is tD be d· cided shmtly l'y a jury in t!w Supr\,me Court would be mo .. ~ improper. I regret th.ct I feel bDund to act on this :.tdvi<'e, becmrse I v.·.t; quite prepared, and, were the procedure unobjectionable, woulrl Flill be prepnr• d, to 3• C•- pt the v:.:tdict of the hon. munb~rs who, in the circnn1,)tances m":·ntioned, v.ould have formed the Com­mittee. .\t t!w same time I must say that, in m~ opinion, the hen. member. for F.,rtitude Val!..-y, having made charges a~am•t l!'e, o.nfiht himself personally to make thP m;mn~s. I again ask him tu do so .. I prornse hl!Jl that he shall have en ry famhty to asccrtam all the facL of the matier, and, if he dtlems it nece<sary, he may o~tair_r the s~rvice~ of an audito1· to assist h1m m the mveshga­tion. In this wa.y a cn_ncl~sion coul<j be reached without any preJudiCe tD the Issue tha't is being tried in the Supreme Court. But for th~ same reason which prevents investiuation by a Parliamentary Committee, the ho;., member for Fortitude Valle:y must undertake not to disclose the facts 1n any way until the issue raised in the Supreme Court has been finally disposed of. The honourable gentleman will then aot in the matter as becomes an honourable member of this House.

GOVERNMENT MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

lion. D. F. Denha,..]

584 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Marsttpial, etc., Bill.

QUESTIONS. R.A.ILWAY EMPLOI<:ES' MEDICAL FDNDS-

MOUNT l\lULLIGAN RAILWAY \VORKS.

Mr. THEODORE (Chill""goe) aoked the l'!eeretarv for Railv. a c 3-

" i. When an ~mployees' medical fund 13 eAablished on railway c'Onstruction works, am not employees contributing to euch fund entitled to free medical and hospital treatment in the event of sick­ne~s o,r accident?

" 2. Is an engineer in charge of construc­tion works justified in refusing medical or hospital treatment to a contriLuting employee who has been injured, simply becaus0 •-uch employee is in receipt of compensation under the \Yorkers' Com­pensation Act?

"3. Will he instruct the resident engi­neer of the Mount Mulligan Railway works to administer the employees' medicttl iund in such manner as will permit employees to receive free medical and hospital treatment in the event of accident as well as sickness? "

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS (Han. W. 'l'. Paget, Mackay) replied-

" 1. Employees are entitled to medical or hospital treatment in ease of sickness, but not in case of accident.

"2. The resident engineer is justified in refusing medical or hospital treatment in case of accident, but he alway·s procures :!lrst aid in case of accident.

"3. No, excel?t as above stated. This wo,uld mean givmg preference to the men on the Mount Mulligan line as against those on other railways under construc­tion. The \Yorkers' Compensation Act of 1905 prescribe~ the action to be taken in case of accident."

PROPOSED PURCHASE OF TRAMWAYs COMPANY'S BUSINESS.

Yr. FIHELL Y (Paddington) asked the ~Secretary for Railways--

"1. Has the statement of Mr. W. F. Hamilton, K.C., at the twelfth annual meeting of the Tramways Company in London-viz., ' That there was no proba­bility of the Government or the muni­cipal\t.ies purchasing the company's busine.'s,' been brought under the no~ice of the Minister?

"2. In view of Mr. Hamilton's state­ment, and o£ the fact that Mr. Hamilton visited Quer·ns!and last year on the Tram­ways Company's business, is it considered likely that the Tramways Company will continue on its way unchecked after its franchise expires?

" 3. Under the circumstances, will the Minister instrnct the Railway Commis­sioner to formulate a sche'lle for supply­ing a thoroughly efficient suburban rail­way service, and, if necessary, suppl0ment that Bervice by an up-to-de,te system of motor-buFes to feed the railways, and thus establish an active means of com­peting with the present monopoly?"

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS replied-

" 1. No. "2. I am unable to indicate what ma.y

occur after 20th September, 1920. "3. The Government e,nd the Commis­

sioner are fully alive to their responsi­bility."

ELECTRIFICA.TIO};" np 13rn 'BAXE RAIL'},'AYS.

Mr. FIHELLY ask-cl th' S· Railways-

,, 1. lias the Railw. 1 ) C~ neC('lb.:J~try pov.re..:: ~o , .d t

struct light tr.L· •L:e' '' tho Brisban,• c .. 1ba.·l . ?

" 2. In vi~,y.- of + }J ways Company are.,, bit ant sum fo,· t: .rir the Commicsionu i.Jr

SuBURBAN

ary £or

ton- the i·:. {.f'll­

U" , :.:y of

in buildj·:.g a po" •:>r-hur~ l', present .Jtiburban r _il ·y \Y systmn, and ext"'Pr~-1~1b l :d: i> rvir: ,~~J as to tLlp all sn}:~rbs?

" 3. \Vould not the immecli ' 1 n off. ct of such a policy be (al. to l_n:tke :d'. :E~dLer realise his responslbl~H,l\~"\ to .the -~onl­munity; (b) to make tho lrau\\ay." Com­pany's assets so, much :erap. iror: by the time its franchise had expn·c d!

"4 Will the Minis':er o1tain a repo.rt from· the Commis-,ioner 011 the 1natter? "

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS replied-

"1. Not without parliamemaxy autho-rity.

" 2. I have no knowledge of any offer. "3. Purely a matter of opinion. "4. No."

MARSUPIAL PROOF FENCING ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

INITIATION.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS (Han. J. 'l'olm'ie, TooU'oomba): I beg to move- .

"That the House will, at its next sit­ting resolve itvdf 'into a Committee of the Whole to consider of the desirableness of introducing a Bill to amend the Mar­supial Proof Fencing Act of 18?8 by enlarging the definition of marsupials. so as to include d'ingoes, and by extendmg the provisions of the said Act to all. lm:'ds held from the Crown, and by ahenng the term of loans for wire netting and appliance•·, ...

Mr. L\ND (Balo.,nr) : I do not wish to detain the House, but this ic a \cry Impor­tant measure, mu~h. mo,re F :J ,tJ:an t~e average member OL the House trunks; m fact, I question vu·y much whether the Minister himseli, at this stage, knows how 'important this mr·asure is. I would like to be c '~surod th·l ~ VhJ have sufficient sc~pe unde1· this p1·cposal to pass a Bill v,hwh will be sufllcient for 'he purpoFe of fully carrying out what is required to be done. I comidor that once this Act is passed, and lessees can obtain marsupial netting on the same terms as they can obtain rabbit-proof netting, then there will. be . thousands of m:iles of that netting reqUired m the \V <"stern country; and I question very much 'i'~ether the Minister has got a great deal o, mfor­mation on this subject. So long as th_e Minister has the ncces··.ary pm1 er under this proposal to make all the nccr•<;ary require­ments I have no need to detain the House any I~nger in making referenc<O to. it. It is introducing a new ;rn:inciple altogether;_ bul I would like the Munster to as9ure me If he has got the necessary power to deal with it in the way he suggests.

Marsupwl Proof Fencing [22 JULY.] Ac' Amend .. nent Bill. 58i

*. ::'llr. HAMILTON (Gregory): I would like to get some mme mformation from ~he Ministe~ before we give permission to mtroduoo th1s measure. \Ve want a compre­hensive measure to meet the conditions that exist at the present time. I undmstaml that this Bill is merely one to enlarg0 the scope of tho :i\.hrsupial Proof Fencing Act of ~898, so as to ir.clude dingoes as marsupials, m order that wire netting may be issued to lessues on the same terms as marsupial nethng is issued. I am in favour of that. ~ow, under the Marsupial ·Act of 1905, dmgoec, are protected to a certain degree. We know th:•.t there are some hundreds of scalpers in the West-men ,.ho earn their living by ~":a.l:ning Uingo, _s and lHar--lP~,ials~­and as there 'is a provision under th~ Mar­supial Boards Act by which the ler.sees can obtain exeLlptions for their holdings, these scalpers a;·e unable to go on to the holdings a.fter the dingoes at alL At the pr•c>•"nt tm1e they are prev"nted from killing dingoes on these holdings.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIO LANDS : This doc' not affect the Marsupial Act at all.

Mr. HAMILTON: I do not think that this measure goes far enough. I am quite in harmony with this measure, and have nothing to say against it at all; but I would sooner see a comprehensive Bill introduced dealing with all the noxious animals. We could call it a Noxious Animals Destruction Act.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The marsupials are dealt with by the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. HAMILTON : This is only tinkering with the question. I do not se(l why we should tinker with questions like this at all. \Yhile ~ know this is going a long way to g1ve rehef, we want to give still further relief. In many districts in my electorate the mar­supial boards are pretty well formed by managers of c11ttle stations, and they obiect to anyone going on to theh· holdings' to shoot the dingoes, so they grant exemption to one another. They say that the dingoes keep down the kangaroos and wallabies and such like marsupials, and that even if they do lose a few calves through the dingoeo., they are compensated by the num­ber of marsupials that the dingoes them­selves kill. But adjoining these cattle stations there are a number of sheep stations and gr,zing. farmers, and they suffer loss through the dingoes, and it is very hard on them when they are trying to keep the dingoe~ off their properties, when they know that the adjoining cattle stations are nothing but breeding grounds for this pest. The dingo, or wild dog, promises to be one of the biggest pests which we have in Queensland, and their numbers are increasing. \\-e want to go into the matter in an exhaustive mannPr and deal with it in an effe;·tive way. Then, again, I consider that all these questions should be admini,terecl bv the one department. At present we have the F•mc:ng Act adminis­tered by the Lands Department, and the marsupials come under the Department of Agric•1lture. There is divided control, but it is far better to have it all under the one head. I am in favour of the measure as far as it goes; but I would like to see some provicicn to compel the station-owners to rkstroy the wild dogs on their holdings, as that would only be fair to the man adjoin­ing who ha' sheep on his land and is trying his best to k oep the wild dog ant.

The PREMIER : The hon. member for Gregory may be perfcdly correct in saying that the Marsupi:d Act r.eeds amending, but this Bill which the Mini t•r fur Public Lcmds is sedring per:rnission to introduce is not in the direction of am.··.din;:r t1.c Mar:ollpial Act at all. ·

:Mr. HA~IILTO"': I am a·war-'l of that. The PREMIER : We arc merely dealing

with the ]\Iarc: 1pial Proof Fencir:-g Act, and we wish to give the h ssces the pOi'• or to obtain fencing so that they can knp the dingo out. vVhilst th~ dingo is reprdcd as a marsupial under the Marsupial -~ct, he is not so rep.rd· d undn the Mat:•, pial Proof Fencing ~\ ,._ At pr.:scnt the l·asc·!10ld<:r cannot obtain mar~up;::tl proof fencing from the Crown. It is onlv v,hcn the hnd has berm turnrd into freehold that the wire netting can be obtained, or land that is in procc"•S of being made into frer hold. It is to enable the leaseholder to obtain wire netting for the purposes of keeping out the dingo that this amendment has been brought in. The terms of repayment have been ,;Jtered. Under the present law it is twenty years, but it is proposed to alter it to make the payments cover ten, fifteen, twenty, up to twenty-five yBars. This Bill is to en­courage the kaseholdcr to apply for wire netting to keep out the dingo, although from what has taken place in recent weeks I do not think they will require much encour,ge­ment. The object is to facilitate l"aseholders to keep out the wild dog from land which is now leaP0hold, and put the leaseholders on the same footing as the freeholders.

Mr. PAYNE (Mitchell) : I reccgnis!l what the Premier saYs-that this Bill is for the purpose of providing the lessees with fencing to keep out the dingo.0s. While that may give some temporary relief, still I agree with the hon. membGl· for Gregory that unless you get at the root of the evil, you are not going to do much gond. Only to-day a large sheepowner, whose property is outside my electorate, told me that he had lost 30,000 or 40,000 shDep in the last two years through dingoes. He is the owner of Galwav Downs. It is quit" true, as the hon. member for Gregor:" says, that we have cattle stations that the dinr;o does not trouble very rimch, and, somehow or other, most of the managers of the- 3 st ,\Hons seem h1 put {'VDrv obstacle in the way of scalpers, or othere,· who try to get a liYing by destroying dingoes.

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber is in order in mentioning the so rna tters incidentallv, as the hon. member for Gregory d-id, but the hon. me-nber will not be in order in going into details giving marsupial destruction.

Mr. PAYNE : This motion, I undershnd, deals with the dingo pest.

The PREMIER : No. Mr. PAYNE: Well, it is to enable people

to get wire netting to keep dingoes out, on the same terms that they get rabbit netting. Unless there is some proYi·ion · in this Bill by which the Minister can compel every lessee, whether of -a cattle or sheep run, to nse some means to dpctroy the dingoes, you are not getting at the root of the trouble. I know there are people all over my electorate who spend hundreds and hundreds of pounds a year trying to cope with the dingoes. and the cattle sh tions, just outside, are brer•ding thGm np. I dare

Mr. Payne.}

586 Marsupial, etc., Bili. [ASSEMBLY.] Prickly-pear, etc., Bill

say it will be possible to erect a fence high Pnough to keBp the dingoes out, but, .after all, cv~n if you are enclosed by e, dingo­proof fen.·e, it is not a comfort:tble thing to know that once you get outside that fen~8 you are in the jaws of the wolf. To COJY with this evil you want to get a.t the foundation-you want to eradicate the dingo by ce mpelling everyone, if they do not wish to destroy them thems<'lves, to allow men to go on to their runs to destroy them. 'rhe provio_;.,n in tht· Marsupial Act giving certain exe; 1p'.ions in the cate of dingoei, has done m·Ji·e hcrm in Central Queensland than any­thir. ·:· I know of.

Ml'. HUNTER (Jiarunoa): I hold some very strong views regarding th-: principles that should govern this St~te in dealing with p.•<ts, and with this pPst in particular. I a:n one of those who think that in farm­ing out powus to various boards and small bodies, as the Government do, and propose

do a~ain here, is not the way to deal with them. There are marsupial boards, rabbi,; boards, and quite a number of other boanlq dealing with small matters in them­selves-in a way dividing authority between each other, and crossing one another in their authority, and none of th<>m doing their work as well as it might be done had the Government retained the powers them­oielves, and carried out thf' work through their own officers. If, instAad of introduc­ing a Bill to form a rabbit board with a. cenhaJ authority in Brisbane, and a num. ber of small ouhide bouds, the Govern­melle ,-,."·e to ~:>me down wirh a compre­he~:-,ive measure dealing with rabbits and oth"r marsupial pt·sts, and these matters were contra lied through the authorit;es in Bri,'•;.rf', with various officers in the outside di,tri .t- "-' t;1;g on their bc.l1alf, just as the lands offic •rs do, or DUr clnks of petty Ee~,; 1D'', c ~1-lc.ers, or our raih' a.y officers do, in connr-· tion with the . various bnsinesses of tlH- Stah•, then we would not have the diffi­cul 'es we have to <'flntend with in connec­tion with pests of this kind. This Bill pro,,Q3· > to deal with certain marsupials, "nd with r~:;-ard to marsupials you find this sbtc of t}lingJ c'<ish: You have a nc'lrsupial bo,.rd at Taroom offering a large pr<'cmium for ndi,-o dngs, and then you hav<; another away in the South offering a Pmall pre­ll1ium.

Th" PREMIER : This Bill does not deal with marsupials at alL

Mr. HUNTER : This measure proposes to dec1.l wilh marsunial netting. Instead of this meamre dealing with marsupial boards m"d rabbits, and ta{)king on tD that some­+hi:Ig in connection with marsupial boards in the mr<,Her of \Vhe netting, we should haYr a hoard dealing with the whole ques­tion. I think this Bill is not comprehen­sive enough. What do we find? No attempt whatever to give a reward for the destruction of dingoes.

The PREMIER : Why don't you talk e,bout that at the proper time? This is not the time to discuss that matter.

Mr. HUNTER : It is the proper time and place when we are dealing with rabbits.

The PREMIER : This proposal does not deal with rabbits.

Mr. HUNTER : There are certain methods proposed by the Government to get rid of rabbits. (Laughter.)

The PREMIER : No. rM,·. Pa11ne.

Mr. HUNTER (after reading motion) : I have to apologis<> to tho House. I 'Yas under the impression that we \\Dro dealmg with a Rabbit Bill. (Rt:newrd laughhr.) I find this is a proposal to amend the Mar­supial Proof Fencing Act of JE98 by enlarg­ing the definition of maLupials c,·.o a' to include dingOfcs. I am perfedly in accord with that, because, I suppose, foxes wrll <:orne under that definition.

The SECRETARY FOR PCBLIC LANDS : Oh, Y~>S ,

Mr. HUNTER: In the West the fox i8 becoming a very great pe~t. Indeed, I was informed, just before I left Roma on Mon­day, that a very large fox had been caught just outside the town, and it is necr;sar.r that some st<Jps .-,hould be taken by the Government to provide for their destruc­tion.

The SPEAKER: Order! The hon. mem­ber is discussing me-tters in relation to the dp.,,truction of marsupials, ar,d 'in that he is not in order, but he will be in order in incidentally referring to them. The hon. member for Gregory incidentally referred to them, and the hon. member for Mitchell alao, but when the han. member for Mitchell procued<>d to discuss the details of what he thought should be the provisions of .a Mar­supials Destruction Bill, I pointed Ol}t th~t he was f'ntirely out of order. Thrs Brll deals with fencing only.

Mr. HARDACRE (Leichhardt): It seems to me that at this stage we ought to have a Iitth~ infonnadon. .._\.'J far as I can S£-P,

this measure provides for the supplying of nFtting to leasehold<'rs, and that will be of advantege to a very large number of pas­toral lessees and grazing farmers. At the same time it ir proposed to extPnd the terms for r~pa:nr,ent of the loans. I think every­one renresfcnting ·western districts will vote for a r:1cc mre of that kind, and I hope the Minister will carry out the promises he has made in connedion \\ ith this measure.

QJc-Stion put and passed.

PRICKLY-PEAR DESTRUCTION ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

!NITIATIO)ol,

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS, in moving-

" That the House will, at its next ,:ttin;o, resolve itself into a Committ~e of the Whole to consider of the de•irable­ners of introducing- a Bill to amend the Prickly Pear D£struction Act of 1912 in certain particular;::)''

said: There arc only two provisions in this Bill. \Vhere the contractor and the Minister cannot agres with regard to certain por­tions of the agreement ent"red into between Mr. RDherh and the dep"rtment, the Bill provides that the matter may be referred to the Land Court, the ;ame as other agree­ments.

Mr. COYNE: And let him select the easiest land to. clear-is that it?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No, The Land Court will be the sole arbiter of whether the contract has been carried out or not. The Dther particular in which it is proposed to amend the Act is to give power under the .Act to make regulations to

Prickly-pear, etc., Bill (22 JULY.] Rabbtt Bill. 587

govern contracts o£ thi~, kind. At the pre­sent time there is no. such power in the

Act, and it is very desirable [4 p.m.] that there should be such a

power. I may inform bon. mem­bers that there arc other people who are desirous of entering int<l contraets, but so far I have declined to en tel' into any furth,, r oontracts until I see how the contract with Mr. Roberts is going to work out. If it proves a success, then I shall be quite prepared to enter into other cDntracts; but I am not going to allow persons to obtain what may be a valuable cone< ;sian, and enable them to ho.ld up large areas of land for a long period. I want to sec how the busin0ss is progressing under the contract we have already made, and, when that is demonstratPd, I shall be prepared to L• risider tho qucetion of entering into othc'r CGlitrnch.

Mr. HARDACRE: I am very glad the Minister has indicated . the directions in which he intends to amend the principal Act, because there are quite a number of particulars in which I would not !ike the Act to be altered, and in which it would be very dangerous to alter it. Before we go any further with this question, I 'think there should be some better a!!reement pro­vided than exic,ts at present. I understand we have entered into a oonfract with a certain gentleman to clear 100,000 acre', by means of a new invention, but no provic'on has been made for the invention be8oming the property of thP State. This gentlewan will receive an enormous area of land if his experiment should prove successful, and we certainly ought to provide that the inven­tion should belong to the State, which givd the contra~tor the opportunity of carrying out his expairrwnts. Unless this is done, nobody eLo will be able to t"~ the invt ,,_ tion without this ,C\mtleman's P"rmissicm. If we do not ~dopt this precaution, wP are not doin;: a~l w"' ou":!'ht t.J do in connection with the dP•,Gruction of this pest.

Mr. MORGAN Uiurillz): I am vc·r:c­pleased to see thi, amendment is to beo mad•c in the Act. In justice to ~,Ir. Roberts, alld to "'lY other person who enters into an agreement to destroy prickly pcM, they should have an opportunity, if a dispute occur,s, of having their caS•7 dealt witb by a properly constituted court. On the ", ddre'. in Reply I spoke alcout this very matter, and I am pleased to know that the Mi.ris~er intends t<l make the alteration. I "cts s'lr>·y to hear th·' hon. gentleman state tk•t h:l does not intend to enter into anv f , h agreements. I certainly think it is his claty 'to enter into an agreement with any per ,,on who is prepared to dostrt'Y the pest. I do not think that Mr. Robu·t·, or anvbod.,- el·o has a right to have the sole agreement of this kind. ThEi bon. rnembE'r for Leich­hardt spoke of giving- a large area of valuable country to Mr. Roberts to clear it of pricklv pear, and said that we do not know wha't the result will be. I am quite ~atisfied that, if the Government were to offer anv indi­vidual £50,000 as well as 100,000 acres <Jf land if he would clear the land of pear and keep it clear for two years, thel'l• is land in Queensland to-day which nobody would agree to take on such terms. And vet "e are being told that we should go slow, althouf':h the pest is spr,•ading at th" rate of 1,000,000 acres every year. The area of 100,000 acres is a paltry bagatelle compared with the spread of the pest. I think it is time that the Minister entered into every agreement

he possibly can when he is dealing prickly-pear infAsted land which ha' open for selection for a number •Jf without being taken up. .Mr. J\1URPHY: What is the gvod of

ing into usele"'J agreements?

'"Vith been

yc •.rs

Mr. MORGAN: How dot'5 the bon. mem­ber know that they would be usele" .Lgree­rnents? Th<· man who mak<.s the agreement •'.'ith the department should be the best judge of whether it i~. likely t<l be a usel''"' a c; ree­ment. The Government have nothing to lose b,Y enter!ng into such ." reements.,_,If there 1s anytlung to Jo,,e, 1t 1s J\1r. Rob,:as, or any oth~r gcontleman who may 0nter mto an agreement, who is likely to lo&c. If they are going to be able to clear the land and keep it cl•·ar, then the whole. of Queensland will benefit. At the present trme the lanJ 1s useles~ and \HJUid be better sunk in the sea; but, because one man has h'ld the gamrness to take up 100,000 acres, we aw told that we chould go slow and see wh,J, he is going to do with it.

Mr HARDACRE: Don't you think the State should have iome property in the inYention!

Mr. MORGAN: I think that the Stat~, has tho best of the agreement with Mr. Rob01 ts.

The SECJtETARY FOR PFBLIO LANDS: T'' dve months will show that.

Mr. MORGAN: That i' tDo long to "ait. Question put aJtd pa.g,,• 3.

RABBIT BILL.

dE~O:"!D READING-RESU~lPTION OF DEBATE.

~vir. GUN::S (Garn"non): I wouJ.i t<l Sl..i. y a few- \'.Ords on tho ,,,, ~~0nd Tt of th~s Bill, beca;r,- r"rne of ito prm:i,-ions a:1pl:, p,trticalarly tJ the ele0torate wh1ch I rep1 :--:>t. I happen to rc;;c :c rt, ar.;_, ' ~t;:Jl'- e

1 hat 1~ord ~rs on th~ \::'-t,L:: or J..: 1- ~on~h

\VaJ, :\!any ch' ck fenccc and De_.· r ra bh1t· proof h nc -, luve b< ,.n P'''' up, JlGt qmte alon,; th- b0rt' ·,:. bm within m ,,,. 100 lllll~s o{ the bor(l,T 1n some r:la~z''1, 1 nd ~·-Ople htve Leen fenced om and g1vcn over to ,he ra1 bit', but th y have had to p~y t::z,ahon for a long number of year3. l mav say that I am one of those per ,ons who fenced vJ keep out th,-: rabbih from New S>uth \Valee, and !·, ,d to pay taxc,, for f,.fu,.,n vears tc> the lrard and nev!'r got a sh1llmg ~f benefit. And, of course, there are other nersons lik" myself who have lnrl to pay their rabbit tax too. A numl•·'r of '" fOt nciting from the Gm-erm•wnt :1Lcl feJ1(.ed ~il our , holdings, and no\V are ex.Pmp± flt.H11

taxation, but there are still a number of persons who have not br•pn able t<l get netting, or "\Yho, for E>:....n1e other reason, have ,till to pay the taxation, and the prop~sals of this Bill will relieve tho:-" persor' trom th0 disabilities undc>r which they :ue novr living. Thnefore, I welcome the B~ll. in this respect. But there are ot.ber ~rOVl~lOnS in th<' Bill which may want dH,cussmg when we get into Committee. Taking it alton:etl:er, the Bill is a great improvement on auythmg we have had before. As far as this House knows-and my constituents certainly know it-we have fought the rabbit on wrong lines right from the first. I, myself, at the first believed that it was a great pest that was coming from New South Wales and SDuth Australia, and was going to ovenun the Stat!~

Mr. Gunn.1

Rabbit Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rabbit Bill.

->illd nL.lw Queensland a rabbit warren, and th. Gun rnment of the day brought in legis­L ti.cn a•:thoriPing rabbit boards to put up barr>r fen.;._" to keep this invasion from the South from overrunning Quecmsland. I m;.ty 'w th, 1; it \\us in 1893 that I first came in - < ~1t .· ·, \Vith the ra1Jbit, and the more I see of it dw lees I am afraid of it. I think it \ns ll mi-,,.·,kc to put up these barrier fences, anc! i' we i.ad allmqo-d him to continue his n,Jrtli. rn j• ·-irney he would not btl so nunlE'i'01 -; :_, :; he is at the present time. \Vhac •v.,r it is I do not- kno'N, but so soon .a, a ra:Jbit i:; l:1orn h~ see1ns to want t·J go noc th. .'·" i i£ l: ., see-' a dog, he goes a little L rthn north. (L.mghter.) J\'o mattPr what it i.;. Lc ge' nor~ h a~ -!:he least excus~c-... And there is r.u ohjection on my part to his going north, for it he went north he would IlH\' i f a buffalo al!d tho sw;:nnps, and he cm1d ftgh: the buffalo and th+> swamps, and I do not ! hiuk we then should have as manv a.s lYe ha Ye to~ day. \V e put up check fence~, ar,.l ···c l -. •" dammed him, as it were, to the suutL •rn side of it. I was living onc.e not far hom the border fem o, and they were so numerous thero that they ringbarked the snndd --:ood trees and <"at all the herbage alonff the f, nee, and died along the fence trying to get north, wherea~ if you .. \vent a few miles to the south you would find that rabbi" w: rc not l :td at all. Their object in life was to get north, and they would starve on the fence in trying to get there. I do not think tho' e fences have lwen tl,e success that we thought they would be, and the Govern­ment would br, well advifed if they thought well before the-y spend more money on barrier fences. During the recess I took the oppor­tunity of travellin,c: over "H the \Yest and Xorth-Vlf·:;,t. and I :found that th._,re werf~ rabbits right up in the far North-west. There is a barrinr fence between the Territory a,nd Queensland. I went there the other day myedf and inquired of the l""toral lesse-e on th~ Territon side about them. " Oh, yc::;," h0 .c-aid, "'"'3 ha·ve rabbih. We hav.e h<J.d them for ten years, but they are all going away." On the Qmons!and side of i:he fence I saw .trace' myF'P:f. At one plac-e where I saw them I wa.; told that they had had them for fiftNm yea1•, but they wer<O nearlY extinct. So I find there are rabbits in th:-, :'~Jorthern cLtricts. And what is the good of thc>s<> fl)ncc -J? Thc_v :ue behind the ro'Jbit• inst··:<d of in fr mt But this Bill is a g-reat imnrovernent on the prGE>:mt Act. I do not, ho·· "8\ r, think we should pull the fences down, b·,cause the Government has sr-r-nt a great de 8.1 of rr.oney on them; we should gco the p :• scoral leSdN'S to look after them, and, if th.•re is no les&:P, then I think the Lands Department or ~ board or som-e other authorit;, should look after thBm. I think a great· ck a! of our rabbit legislation in those days was panic legish:tion. I remem­ber that at a placB at Bellon, not far frorn St. George, the country was thic1dy infested wi'h rabbits. They were so thick that they got on thB track and you could drive thern off with your whin. I p'lssed through there the other dav anrl th'lre w~:s not a rabbit to be ,<Pen. c:•rbinly there were traces, any amount of them, but no rabbits, and I arn convin~<>d that some disea'e has brok;m out in that part of Q•1eensland at any rate, and pr.wents them from breeding. I have noticed in that district, and others like it, where we once haJ oposmms and nativtl bears, they have b• en wrped out by a disease, and I think

[Mr. Gunn.

that in this district that disease, or some similar disease, has wiped out the rabbits. When they get to the North-west of Queens· land there are only two F•easons-,-wet and dry. Three months of the year are \'ery wet and durin"' that wet weather the bur­row's would all '\e swamped with rain and floocls, whilst during the other n.ine mont~s it is so dry thr~t I do not thmk rabb1ts

. would do very well. So that really_ after a)l I am of the opinion that the rabb1t pest 1s not the p, . .,t that we considered it was, and I think if you mpply lessees and landownB:s with rabbit fencing, .o,nd let them fence the1r land and deal with it in their own way, that ic all von can do. If you legislate for rabbite I do not think you will improve the situation, and it will cost the country a great deal of monev. At the same time we should have to maintain the<e rabbit barrier fences that havl) been erected.

Mr. HUNTER: If I may be allowed to continue my speech where I left off­(laughter)--

The SPEAKER : Order ! I am under the impression t!1at the adjournment of the debate wac moved by the hon. memlwr for Carnarvon. •

Mr. HUNTER: Through a misunder­stimding, I was speaking on the second read­ing of the- Ro,bbit Bill previously, and I do not wish to inflict that speech again on the House. 'When the Minister was asking for leave to introduce this Bill I asked whether it was his intention to provide for powers to deal with the pest by means of trappers and in other wa,v.:<. He informed me then that he had decided not to do so. There­fore I am not in favour of the second read­ing 'of this Bill, for this reason : I think the Government, in dealing with the pests of the State do not deal in a comprehensive way with 'them. ·we have marsupial boards and rabbit boards and quite a number of other boards dealing with various sections of the pests of the State, but none of them dealing with them in a comprehensive way; they are all dt-aling with them in such a way that we have divided authority, and even one s~a~d­im.:· in the road of another. I am of opm10n that instead of cvming to this House an.d asking it to pass a measure such as th!s in+rodure<l bv the Minister for Lands, It \YDuld be v. r;, much bettor if the whole of th.. boards &ctling- with native pests were dissolved and one authori'y set up, the Government lnving its central authority here in Brisb::::c with offires distributed about tlJ!O:'"·L.out the Stat-e and acting under its in,stru-'"'tion,J, just in the same. way as Ol;lr Railwav Comm'issionBr has h1s officers m various'parts of the State in chargB of various matters of a local nat•1re, and the Lands Department has its officers in various pa~ts of the State, and the Department of J ust!ce has its clerks of petty sessions and pollee magistrates in various l?arts of the St~te, e1rh performing the dutres al!ntted to h\_:n­If that wac done, th0re would be no nf'"d tor a systE'm of b0ards wh'ich imp<·'O taxes on some person? end all~w othu pe1:sons to eeeape tax~\tion. At tne prf'"Pllu hme one bo<:rd in one part of the State pays a hi~h nrice for th-e dP ,truCtion of marsunials, while \nether board in onotlv-r portion of the s•ate pays a verv low price, so that one pal't of the State ;-eally _b~conw; a breedin.g ground for the pest wlucn another part IS called upon to destroy. WB should have a uniform system of dealing with these peeta,

Rabbit Bill. (22 JULY.] Rabbit Btll. 58\}

includir,g rabbits, under whi~h authority y;ould b<, centred in one body, which would 1mpose taxes and employ a staff o£ ofiicm·s ~or the purpose of .dutroying the put"; and rn that r,-·,pect this Bill dol'-.,, no1' 1neet the case. I hold that instead of tho j',Iinister authorising some person to 6 o and de stray rabbit·· on a particular prop•·rb· v·hcrc thcv are not being destroyed, a boar.J or th'G officers who are in charge o£ that 'larticular dic.trict should be allowed to gr.-"rlt p~rmits to persons to go_ on to that pwperty and destroy the ral.Jb1ts and sell their furs and carcassc,, in the sam•.• way as authority ic giYcn by the Marsup1al Boards Act to per­sons to go on runs and destroy kangaroos, w_allaby·;, opossums, bears, marsupials, and dmgods. I agree with the hon. memoer for qarnaryon that the legislation in connc•c­tron w1t11 the rabbit pest has been on alto­gether "rang lines. I believe that dicease, floods, heat, and other natural c<1uses have led to t)le d• •.truction of raLbits to a greater extent than ha, the action of rabbit boards. For that reason I should like to see the Go­ver':'ment. face this matter in something like a busmess-hke manner. I have been of opinion for a long time that the fact of the Govern­ment making it .a criminal offence for a man to go into rabbit districts to destrov rabbits and turn their carcasses and furs to commercial purposes is altogether wrong. In New South Wales and Victoria it is qU:ite different. Thny did have: the antiquated idea that we have. in Queensland-that if you allowed rabb':tters to go into a district to d"'tmv rabb1ts,. that would lead to tho pronagation of rabb1ts. I am not of that opinron, and I. cannot understand how 'it can wake anv d:fference whether a trapper or a boundarv r1~er de~tro:P• a rabbit or it i' kilkd b~· J?Olson distributed by a cart. If the ski~1 IS taken off a rabbit, that is tho last of that rabbit; and the more rabbits there are destroyed in that manner the better it will be for the State. We have been told that if trappers were allowed to do this wor:k and they caught a doe, they would let it go ~n ord!)r that it might breed, and r,o furmsh them with further employment. Are w~ to understand that after trapping a doe y;1th .a valuable fur and carcass, the trapper 1s gomg to let it go ?

.Mr. E. B. C. CoRSER: They might let the k1ttens go.

Mr. HUNTER : Then the same thing might be said about the opossum-that they would. le~ the ki~tens of the opossum go. Why Is 1t that mstead ·of taking the fur from the female opossum the trap~er does not let it go so that it may breed more opossums? The fact is that the trappers take every possible fur they can get, and that large sums of money are made in New South Wales and Victoria by men who follow the business of trappers.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: 'And the rabbits are not getting less.

Mr. HUNTER: They would probably be ..-ery much greater if men were not allowed ~o trap them. I cannot understand how it IS that .a number of men are making sums of money varying from £15 to £25 a month for the trapping of rabbits, and that never­theless the number of rabbits is not reduced. To me that is a most ·extraordinary state­ment to make. It seems to me that instead of this Bill being a Bill for the destruction of rabbits, it is a Bill for the preservation ef rabbits.

Mr. E. B. C. CoRSER: If we carried out what you suggest, it would be an encourage­ment t<> bring them into clean country.

Mr. HUNTER: My belief is that the trapper, like tho han. member, ,,·hen he gets his fingers on 3,. 6d. worth of stuff wi!I hang on to it, and that once he get> a rabbit he will not let it go. He will not prop;;gate rabbits in son.e other part of the country for the benefit of somebody elc3. lt is an altogether exploded idea that men will ;Jend their time propagating rab' its.

Mr. MoRGAN: They do it, anyway. Mr. HU~TER: In theory, but not in

prf!ctice. Mr. MoRG I.N: In practice. .Cdr. HUNTER : They had the same idea

in Victoria in :·ears gone by, but they have given up that idea now, and the Govtorn­ment have gone so far as to erect along .the railwa0,; cold btorcs and put refrigerating cars on their trains tor the puropse of bring­ing the carcasses of the rabbits to market. If there are a number of rabbits in this Stat•·, and they require to be destroyed, why do not the Government ,attack the problem in business-like w.ay and offer •every encouragement to the destruction of rabbits? This Bill proposes to fence in runs, and power is given the Minister, if he thinks a !usee is not doing sufficient to destroy the rabbits, to call upon him to take certain mea•ures for that purpose. But it says nothing about calling upon a man to surround his holding with a fence in order tu prevent the incursion of rabbits on that holding. Once he has fenced in his holding, he may breed rabbits as much as he likes, until the Minister comes along and asks him to destroy some of them.

Mr. FORSYTH: I should imagine that if a. man put up a fence, he would destroy what rabbits were inside th«t fence.

Mr. HUNTER : One would imagine that he would do that, but is it likely that such a person would refuse the help of somebody else to destroy the rabbits on his holding? It appears to me that the Government are afraid of offending the pastoralists by allow­ing men to go on their runs for the purpose of destroying rabbits, and that that is the reason that the provision I have referred to is inserted in the Bill, with the further object of allowing a certain amount of labour to go on the market. The same remarks apply to the legislation with regard to the opossum and the native bear. The Government have established a close season for those animals, and prevented men going on to hol·dings and making splendid money.

The PREMIER : It has not prevented the annihilation of the opossum.

Mr. HUNTER : Disease and the use of poisons have as much to do with the annihila­tion of the opo,,"um as anything dse. But I would ask if the annihilation of the opossum has been brought about by persons engaged in their destruction, would not the same means bring about the annihilation of rabbits? Rabbits die from disease, just as opo--sums .and bears die from disease. Bears die from the heat; thousands of them fall off the trees in summer time. All these fm's 'and skins are being lost, while there is an immense demand throughout the Com­monwealth, and I am told by manufacturers in the trade that they cannot supply the demand in America for opossum furs. I

JIIr. Hu.nter.]

590 Rabbit Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rabbit Bill.

fear that at the present time we are also losing a considerable amount of income by refuoing to allow the trapper to turn the destruction of the rabbit into a commercial asset.

Mr. FORSYTH: How can they do that when they are from 150 to 200 miles. away from a railway?

Mr. HUN'fER: I believe it can be rlone. Apart from the cmcass, the fur it,,e]f is worth takin,: the rabbit for. I cont ''"l th:t along the ndlway line, where it is pcssible to have refrigerating cars and freezing-rooms, both the fur and carcah can be utilised; but en·n wher- there arc not the r:jlway oc:n­"' nic' Cb it would be pc,-;ible for the fur to re u -0d. That is all I wEh to sa v on the m~tter, and when the Bill [;lts ·into Committee I intend to in to have a clause inserted in the direction 'I have indicated.

Mr. PAYNE: 'fhcre is no doubt, as far as I can understand the difference between tht m. that tho elaPses in this Bill contradict one another. Ron1e hon. menlbf'rs havE.' said th~tt tlv~ efl\_•ct of trapper/ destroying th0 rah1:ite ha> b'" n th .. st the rabbit.- have in­cna,eJ. I new'r lward ouch non-nnse before. \V c l1;, ve a pronsion in this Bill un:l<>r which cenain licen. ·CI people can lay p0ioon to kill tLn lo.bbit-;, and there i~ also a clause pro­hibitcn;..: anyolle fron1 P.ellinf., a rabbit or a ra111it rkin. \Ylwre i·<{ the lo -ic of sayin~ th t the IIore rn 1>Lils th0 trdriJCn destroy awl -.'II, thE' greater tenden y th<>r•'o i·· to an incrL J s.,;_ in thP number? Thf' whole thing· i ., rilE~ ulou;:;;. Th0n so~ne hon. Inon1l1ers sitting op;.- ·•ite ha1 e ,,aid that if the r >bbit trapper, are allowed to sdl a fur or skin it will ha' e a ocndencv to came them tu trv to breed rabbits ir; Quecnfland. '

. \ GOYERX~-EXT :\IE:MBER: Tlwy did it tn \.lict.vria.

:l'r. E. B. C. CORSER: They clo it largely in "'' w South \Yales now.

11.fr. P A Y::\'E: It is ricliculous to tl1ink that the people in N · w South \Yales ',··ill c\JJ that. I was in New South \Yales h\ent ,. yean; ago, and I visited it a ) ear or t\YO agv, when I found that the trapping ha·l decreased. 'There is nothing Sl!rer to niP than that the Minister in charge of the Bill has ·orne otlH'r motive-whether it is a good motive or n0t I do not know: but to insert a clause in thi" Bill under which a man will l1e fiLt·d £RO for r·xpo;ing or offning fnr suJe a rubbit fur or rabbit oarcab3, and argue that that is going to gin a<,istance in the d0struction of this pest in QueE'nsland, i" ridiculous. TheL is a clause proyiding that a man can lay poison on a run jf he giveq certain not icC' a11d RpecifiE'q INhere ho is goin r~ to lay tho poiun. What j,, tho diffcerence hehYeon a l' Jic011nd rabbit rotting in tl-w bu'h and a ra1,Lit that is being killed by a nnn ·; ho is making his living out of it'. 'l'he vvhole thing ~.' Jlnnsf'ESL\ and. \'3 has be0n rer.uark(•d on thi.., 2ido, it ruust be to please those Lrge l'ilFhold~Ts-f·.·· stop pPoplo fron1 goino: un their r~llE indi. 1 1lrninatel~v. I de. not think it v dqlr-{ L: a .-ood thh g to alloy· everyone to p.o .r;~1 a. :run t1-:~1ping ra'b'Jii at. .:,.n:" 1 °riOd of Ye:lr: but if VOU :tre p-oin,: to ,::op uc·n fr~IL trappi;,g rabhitc fqr : 'ile, yo" ::rp ,,oi1•g to ],,lp to breed the !'aHJits; al' ·l from what I sec of this Bill it ,, ill h; "' ·c·I,,;, ncv to increase the rabbit pc-..t in ( 11 lE'C'l< .land. ·

Mr. LAJ'\ D: I would just like to o:ty .a word or h'.·o 1 tlw sc,cond rcuding of this rn!'asure. I have advocated the abolition of

[Mr. Hunter.

rabbit boards for a number of years. I have also advocated making over the whole of the fences to the lessees. Up to the present time we have been collecting mon~y to build fences and have to keep them m order. Are not the fences in many instances the boundaries of pastoral ]eases? One hon. member has stated that he is of opinion that when this legislation was first introduced, it was panic kgisl,ltion. If it was not pa~w legislation, I think it was very bad legis­lation. The border fences must have cost hundreds of thousands of pounds. It was well known that there were rabbits on this side· of the boundary before the rabbit fences were erected at all. Another thing, the rn€ ·h is altogether too big; rabbits can get through the 1~-inch mesh. It would act as a good chN·.k as the boundary of a run. or the boundary of a holding; but 'as to keepmg the rabbits out of Queensland, the fence was never effective from the very first. The lessees are taxed'-they have had to pay a; oessment taxes for yNtrs. They have been paying them in many districts where the rabbits have not yet got, and when the rabbits do get there they will. be .compell:d to fence in their holdings and k!ll the rabb1ts for themselv~'· Last year was . a very drv vcar. I tra,·elled about 1,200 miles, and I sa-.'V many rabbits. 'l'his year was a. good yea1, and I have s~en very few rabbits. ~ know of '•Orne holdmgs that had plenty ot rabbits at one time, and many of them lHn· never d0ne a hand's turn towards df',tro,ing them. ManY of those holdc:rs have "told me that the rabbits have dis­:cppeared altogether. It s~r~ke~ me that the information which the Mmi,ter has got on which to frame this Bill is from people who aro inter;~st.cd--

Thc PnE1Il:ER: In ihe destruction of rabbits .

:Ylr. LAXD: ]\' ot at all. I repres<)nt a d 'strict that had rabbits in it about as early a~ any other part of ~ueensland.. ~have been all ovPr it., as well as other distnd,, and .I , an claim to know something about the rabbit pest. The greater por~ion of the money c~l­lectcd from lessees IS 'wallowed up m ;abrics. There is the Central R<1hbit .Board which is absolutely useless here in Bnsbane.

'Th<· PRE>IIER : It is practically no cost; they are an advisory board.

Mr. LAND: What is the good of ?aving ari advisory board in Brisbane to adv1se the :nen in the rabbit-infested districts what to do" The Central Rabbit Board is not in .a position .to know how to destroy the rabbit when they are 600 or 700 or perhaps 1,000 miles away. They cost money, and then the rab!Jit boards themselves cost money. Th.ey spend a c•:rtain amount of money. Th: m­spectors the overseers, and boundary nders all cost' monev. They never kill a singl.e rabbit. They· never killed a single rabbit in their positions. none of the~ .. The only w.n thPv were killed was by po.sonmg tliem. Th~re ,;-ere never sufficient poison carts in Qucensbnd to do any good, consequen~ly t~e ,.,-hole sv· 'c- n is a bad system. Th1s Bill nwrdv ~n.1ct• a".d keeps g-1ing ·-•1hat I look upon "as a b:td system. I· guarantee that if ,ou gc! tho information whi~h you ought to get from the men who are affected, then vo·.l w:mld have different information to ;,-hat you frame this Bill on. You ask the men eng,,-ed on the rabbit boards for in­formation." Why, that is their living. Do you think that a man is going to give you a

Rabbtt Bill. (22 JULY,) Rabbtt Bill. 591

report that is g·oing to do him out of his billet? I have got nothing to say against these individuals. I have no doubt that they have work laid down for them to do, but I do not believe in keeping an extravagant system like this going just for the purpose of keeping men in employment. If they are good men they can easily get work in other departments, especially as they are well­known men. The pre,,<mt system is an ex­travagant system, and it is a bad system to keep going. Why should this State be called upon to boundary ride a run belonging to the lessees? You should hand over all these fenoes and let them boJlndary ride their own runs. If there is a portion of country that is not the boundary of a run, then the Lands Department could look after that portion. The whole of the, present system could be done away with if we only agreed to give the selector rabbit-proof fencing on the same terms as we have given it to the lessees in the past. Why do you not give the grazing farm;;r the power to fence the selection him­self 1 You penalise the grazing farmer all the time. You make him pay for years and years, and then you compel him to fenoo in and destroy the rabbits himself. That is an extravagant system and a bad systPm, and the information which the Minister has got was obtained from a wrong source altogether. If you got your information from the advisorv bo: rd, then I would not give much for it, because anyone with a grain of common sense will know that vou cannot run a busi­ness like thi< with 'an advisorv board in Brisbane. The Minister himself ·is chairman of the advisory board, so why not let the Lands Department act as the advirory board alto,ether? Th<> C,mtral Rabbit Board and all the remaind<er of the boards ·hould be done away with, and if anyon~ wants to get rabbit netting let them make application to the Lands Department for it. Instead of making it a better Act, you have made it worse. Of coursp there arc some provisions that are good. but it would be a funny Act if 8ome provisions in it were not good. The clauses I object to are those prohibiting a person from killing the rabbits and using the skin or the carcass. At the pre~.cnt time, a man cannot legally kill a rabbit to eat, nor can you use the skin. In other States of Aus­tralia, and also in New Zealand, thev have got hundreds of thousands of pounds from th;; sale of rabbit skins and their carcasses. In Brisbane if ''ou go down the street you will have to pay 9d. for a dressed rabbit, and itq skin has alreadv been sold in another State. I know for a positive fact that rab­bits have come from the \Ve8tern countrv to Brisbane in the cold weather, and the pe.ople who had them prefer them to the rabbits which are imported here. Many thousands of pounds could have been made if vou would allow people to catch thB rabbits' for their skins and carcasses. \V e are told that people would breed them if th:tt were allo"ed. How are you going to do that? -The argu­mont was used that tho rabbits have in­c:reased in New Suuth Wales, but I know that that is not corr!'•'r I remP-mber when the rabbits werP so thick alm.J thB border fence that they died in CJrners. The han. member for Carnarvon said they were making north. They have always been making north. They struck the check fences and died in corners in such numbers that when the other rabbits oame along they were able to jump over the

check fences over the dead bodies. I know that the rabbits are not as bad to-day as they were years ago, but that is not due to the destruction brought about by the boards at all. The boards hav€• never been effec­tive enough. It has been suggested that there is a disease amongst the rabbrts. I have never seen a diseased rabbit in my travels, but I know for a certainty that they are le~os in numLer than they have been ; m fact, they are leo; in number than they were last year. I know some of the holdmgs where there are no rabbits at all. I know one holding of 14,000 acres where I used to see rabbits running, and the owner of it told me the other day that he would give me £1 if I could find a rabbit on it. I went all over it, but I could not see a rabbit. Their disappBarance is something remarkable, but it is a fact all the same. The provision re­lating to the killing of the rabbit and using the skin and carcass should be knocked out altogether, and anyone should be allowed to use them. \Ve have been told that anyone could get a permit from the department to kill the rabbits, but I have tried dozens of times to get permits, and I was unable to do so. Travellers from New South Wales asked me to get them permits, and I tried to do so, but they were not forthcoming. It seems to me they wish them to increase instead of killing thrm. It was suggested that the working men would not go to the trouble of killing the rabbits for their skins. They would not C'crtainly go to the trouble of trying to spread th,o rabbits. 'fhis is a very bad provision. All along the border fence men are ongaged in killing the rabbite for their skins, and the;- do w,,ll out of it. They cannot use the carcass0s, but they do well out of the skin,<. I would like to see the Central Rabbit Board abolished altogether, because I do not believe that the people of Queensland are getting a fair return f~r the amount of money collected. Thore rs no possible chance of that board doing any effec­tive work as an advisory board; it is only practioal men who can do _any good _wo~k. If you interview the men m the rabrbt-m­fested districts who are personally interested, vou will find that thev do not requiri' this board at all. They say, "Give us the rabbit netting on as easy terms as poss1bh, and allow us to kill the rabbits ourselve~, and not be bothered with expensive overseers and other officers." Another thing that strikes me very forcibly is the fact that the Government themsdves never seem to take any action to keep their own lands clean-­that is land that is not leased to anyone-­and I would like to see a provision in thie Bill compelling shire councils to keep thBir roads and reserves clean of rabbits. While you find that leaseholders, on either ·•ide of the stock rou!Bs, roads, and rrr,crv·'~, have fenood in their runs, and are destroym g the rabbits, you havp rabbit warrens all along the roads, on the reserves, and on Ftock: routes, and there is no one to destroy them. Any time you want a rabbit, if :\ ou go on to a public road o1· stock ro·~te OT on n lTQ.CrYe,

you can m.>Jke a r-Artainty of getting . on_e, and in some plar8s vou will find thl!TI w1thm half a mile of the· town. Thev have be'ln there for years, and uo one ha, eve:' tried to destro' them. ·when we get into Com­mithle w;; mav be able to do a little good. I think tl.e Minister ought to take POme notice of members who speak from experi­enc<'. If h0 took more notice of them, and

M1·. Land.]

592 Rabbit Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rabbit Bill.

lPss notice of those who are directly inter­ested in this present extra' agant system, WB

>muld get better work. I can asure ;you that the ]j.,'·-.ees do not want a measure of this kind, and if the Minister sent some smart men out amonp:st the lessees and got· the information h"- ought to get, it would be the wisest plan he could adopt. I remember giving to this House once before a report of a c:onYersation I had with a member of a particc!lar board. I know that a majority of the members of that board were in fayour of abolishing it altog-ether, but wh< n the time came to vote, it 1'. as retained by a majority of one, wh > had .1lreadY stated that he would vote· for the abolit.ion of the board. \Yhen I asked him why he hJ.d voted to re­tain the board, he said, " What would my old pal Jimmy do if we nbo!ished this rabbit board?" Ther·e is too much of that altog-ether. The bulk of thr money collected from the le>sees i, fritt•q·ed away in salaries to officer; :who cannot possibly give the people "VI'ho contrrbute the money a fair deal.

J\lr. "'I ORGAN: I ha e li··tened to the ditlcrent speeches in connection w'ith this Bill, and I must say they are Yery contra­dictory. First of ail we are told that the rabbit boards and wire fenc-es have done practically no g-ood, and the hon. member who has just rEmnwd his seat told us that at one particul;n· border f0nc. the rabbits died in thousands, and the dead bodies were so thick that other rabbits could climb oYer the bodies and get over the fence. That shows, at any rate, that that rabbit f<·ncc must have done a considcrab],, amount of g_ood by preyenting tho'e t'rou~rmds of rabbrts from coming into Queensland. The hon. member for CarnarYon told us that the rabbits always go north; and why not let them go north ? Is not the North of Queens­land just as 'important eo, oth.-r nortions of Queensland ? ·

Mr. GUNN: When they get there thev won't be able to live there. ·

Mr. MORGAN: We haYe heard that argu­ment time after time, and I am quite sure if we had the Victorian and New South Wales " Hansards" of forty or fifty years ago, we could find exactly similar speeches as those delivered by the· hon. member for Carnarvon to-dav-where it was said that rabbits could not live here, and that their ~atural enemies would destroy them. What IS the result? In both Victoria and New South Waleo it has cocc Lucdreds and hun­dred~ of thousands of pounds to deo,troy the rabbrts. I came from a district where the rabbits were plentiful and thick. Thirty years ago and less they were there in thousands, and the Victorian Government at Ol_le time allowed Chinamen to be brought out m order that they could engage in the destruction of rabbits; and I assisted on one occasion, to drive 10,000 rabbits in'to a yard, •:·here. they were deotroyed. They WCJ:e drryen m by men on horseback with dogs, and. with large_ canvas wing-s ext"lnded out for mrles and mrlos; and 10.000 rabbits were destroyed in one drive. I also remem­ber that at that particular tim0 the Govern­ment paid 6d. P"r dozen for sr:dps in ordN to en•;ourage the destructinn of rabbits. I was a boy in those da)'P., and I and seYc-~al other bo:yd used to go out on a Saturday· an~ we could each earn 10 .. to 12s. qui~ easrly by destroying- rabbits within 2 or 3 miles of the town, and it was looked upon as an offence, so far as We boys were concerned,

[Mr. Land.

if we destroyed a doe in young. \Ye could get 6ci. a dozen for the scaJps, and if we dub' out a doe "'ith young- we always let her go. \Ve were Ci>,lled a '' ,,_ccb" if we killed a do,3 in young-. I have heard ho:1. members opposite say that people should be allowed to sell the care;; sses and skins of rabbits dosh:oyed in Qucomland. At present we only have rabbits 400 or 500 miles away from the se._; board and from tow-ns where th· re is likely to be any dem:d1d, and we know that, a~ far as the carc:tN,s u.re con­cerned, it i · out of th0 question. \Ve could not 1nake lh.l0 of the carcasses EO far as Brisbane and exporting is C')ncenh_'d. 'rhe fur, no doubt, could used; but I know, as an absolute facz, in Victoria and Ne-w South \Vales the ~r:1ppers med to take the young rabbits and does awa' and let them go in the mountainous cOuntrv, in order that thev would breed u;o so tha:'t the indu,try would be foscer.-d. Soin-• men point to the fact H:.;t at the prf'sent time in New Routh \\ ales and Victoria some hundreds of thousand:~ of poundf:, are earned annually by tho•·e employed in the industrv; but would it not b., much better if that country was < arrying sheep ? \Vould it not be better for the working- man, and would it not be better for the State? Because we know it is more profitable to run ~hecp than to run r.tbbitc, and if that countrv was not in­fc 'tc~ with rabbits it would. be capable of runnmg sheep, and the income from the production of wool and the export of sheep and mutton would be eYer so much more than is earned by the trapping of rabbits. It will neyer pay to encourage the spread of rabbits 'in any shape or form, or any other pest, and we cannot be too careful. It is all very well to shut the stable door after the hor'e has bolted. That is what was done in the other Statec, and it is the duty . of this State to be guided by the experrence of the other States. We are told that in certain places the rabbits were Yery thick in one particular year, and that they disappeared a few years afterward" and that they have not been able to accou'nt for thPir disappearance. \Ve know that the rabbit is fon4 of roaming about, and it is known that 111 certain countries vou will not see more than one or two rabbits but if yon wait twenty-four hours you will s~e them

therP in hundreds. That is no [5 p.m.] doubt what is occurring m

Queensland. It is our duty to prevent any increase in the number of rab­bits, and it is also our duty to prevent them from going south or north or east. The whole cost of destroying- the pest is borne by o~e particular section of the community; but, If we keep them from spreading to the north or to the east, then the people to the north and to the east shoulcJI contribute towards the cost of destruction.

The SPEAKER : Order ! I must call the attention of the hon. member for Toombul to the fact that within the last three minutes :he has passed between myself and the hon. member who is speaking five times distri­buting papers. That is not the oorrect deportment in this House.

Mr. MORGAN: It has been found in New South Wales thftt the best method of dealing with the pest has been to encourage s.ettlers to fence their holdings with rabbit­proof netting and then destroy the rabbits within their holdings. I am ploosed to know that that method is to be a.dopted here to a certain extent. Wherever rabbit~

Rabbit Bill. [22 JULY.] Rabbit Bill. 593

•<lxist, settlers should be given every -encouragement by the Government to fence their holdings and then destroy the rabbits <m their holdings. Once they clear their -own holdings, if the rabbits are de,troyed <>n the other side of the fence and a little -attention is given to the fences, there will be no difficulty in coping with the pest. I would almost go so far as to say that it should be compulsory for settlers to clear their own holclings. It is compulsory in

-other States, and I cannot seo why it should not be made compulsory here. If the pest is dealt with in the proper spirit, I am quite sure that in oeven or eight years we .,l10uld be practically free. from rabbits, and we should not be asked to deal with it in :this House year after year. At the present time in New South \Vales they are going t-o Preet some hundreds of mile,. of wiw fencing in order to confine the dingo and .the fox to Quecmland and not allow them to enter New South Wales. After years of "experience in that State they still think that fencing in the holdings is the best method -of coping· with these pests, and the G-overn­ment of Queensland should take advantage

-of the experience in that State. Do not let us pay for -our experience when we can benefit by the experience which has been -'0 dearly paid for in the adjoining State. \Ve cannot afforcl to pass experimental leo-is­lation for ~kaling with the pest, and th~re is no necessity to do anything of the sort when we know that something has proved a succc,ss elsewh(•re. If we aclopt the system which ha.s be~n so succe,sful in New South Wales, I am satisfied tl1at the rabbits will . be wiped out in seven or eight years.

Mr. Gmm: You will neyer wipe them out .altogt'ther.

Mr. MORGAN: You may find an odd :·abbit here and there, but we can practi­

·cally wipn them out. In the Wimmera dis­.trict in Victoria of which I spoke, the rabbits used to be in thou~ands; but now, ·owing- to the measures that have been adopted., it is . almost impossible to find a rabbit. Notwith­standing that fact, they still have a Govern­ment inspector, who visits the different hold­ings from time to time, and if he Iinde. any traces of rabbits he serves a notice on the landholder, who has not only to c!PJ:tr his

-own land, but has ,also to keep one-half of the adjoining roads clear. If the )and­holder does not cl0ar his land within a certain time aftnr the >ervice of the notice, the Government do it at his expensB. There is no reason why similar methods should not ue adopted in Queensland. In districts in which the prickly pear and thistle are found we have -een farmers "'k the Mini·;ter to bring in legi •dation to dt>ol with those pests, and onc2 the roads and res'"rves are cleared, the settlers are prepared to k0ep them clun aft<'rwards. That -chould be done in connection "\:dth ra.~hib and .all other pests. Once the Government clears roads r·nd r.esel~ves as a national undertaking, the so: tiers on t>w adjoining lands should keep them ('car afterwards.

Mr. GRANT (Fitzroy): Thou;:;h I do not know much personally about rabbits, I rave spokt·n to men who have experience of the pest, and al.oo to men in our district who have to pay ,a fairly heavy assessment, although the rabbits are hundreds of miles ·away from them. If it is necesFary for them to have to pay the assessment when the ·ra-bbits are such a long distance away, it

1913--2 p

almost stands to reason that the whole of the Btato .should bear the cost. The rabbit · fence comes near the coast north of Rock­hampton, and the graziers there have to pay the asse,,>ment. I was speaking to a. man only the other day who has a hol-ding between Charleville and Cunnamulla, and he told me that eight years ago there were millions of ntbbits there, and now you may travel for miles and not see a rabbit. He said that the rabbits seemed to die from the southwards and not from the northwitrds, and his contention-and he has had a large experience out there-is that the climate is not suitable fol: rabbits, and they will not breed to the same extent in our warm climate as they do in the temperate States.

:\!Ir. GuNN: Hear, hear!

::\Ir. GRANT: I know for a fact that rabbits were found in the neighbourhood of ~[ount Marlow twenty-five years ago; but, in spite of the good seasons, and in spite of thB creeks and rin1·s that flow through that big district, tlw mbbits haYe not increased in number. '\'ow, might it not be de -irable to find out the reason why th0 rabbits have not increased in Qul'cllsland, and why their northward progress has boon stopped ? It <annot bo said that wire netting and poison­ing are the c~lu~es, because this grazicr a•.,urod mc that there had been no po'ison­ing done on his run, and thoro has been no rabbit-proof fencing dono 1war there. \Vhore fherc ·were fenct'.-3. the rabbits 1-vero on both .'-idP . of them, and where tlwrc wNe millions eight years ago then; are n•ry few to-day. J'.1v infor'''"''t told me that a Crown lands rai1g0r visited hhn the othPr day and travPllcd 40 miles through the run, and wh•:·n he came back tho graziN asked him how many rabbit' he saw, and h<' Sitid, "Only c.ne." And th.1t in a country where eight years ago thnc \i'erc· millions of them. There 1nust be sorno reason whv th,_: rabbit hA..ve disappeared so quickly as that; and a curious lh'ing he pointed out to me was that as thD rabbits decreased tlw dingoes increased . The dog is much worse out there than the rabbit; but it docs not follow that the dingo is responsible for Lhe decrease in the rabbits, because the dingoes have come from the North a,nd the rabbits are dying out t0\\ ards the South. He says al"o that down as far as Hillston, in New South Wales, 1 hev ha vo a similar cxnerience to tell-the ralcbits ar,: diP:-cppearing; and that while th':)T a~'.? incnasing in ~c>,< South \Vales, and in Victoria 1noro particularly, hBre in the warm climate of Queensland they do not :-~ l·,n to increase. I Jist: n'xl \Vith n1.uch interc:;t 1v the ~;pecch of the hon. n~on1bor for Ctrnaryon, and a .._1 l'L":.Ult of his obsr-r­Yations G,l that interesting trip he made aC'ro:-.; tJP' :..rv he ,•,tated that at Carran­doi~:l thA~. '', fe kno,vn tCn y, ats 0go. ~O\Y, i£ r-, 1,hi~ > WE ,~'e th~l'(' t:-n yeu<:s :\go. hovv is il· t:1at they h~oYI' ·li(,,_,ppr·'r<~d? There nnH:,J !13 sor'F' rf'::> ,•nn for it-eith0;~ that the C'T'1SL>'-'~:0n of the r:.bbit h nf't ~.uited by a hot climate· like that of Queensland or else r·Jn1e cli;;:ease has br'-·ken Out an1ongst them, for it is not b, __ th.· labour; of man tbt thev ha~,,J br'ln cot" rid of. ·Tho fTI'EZi»;~ ·nho 'va~s iiiYing n1e this intere"ting infonnation about h;,, particular run ab0 :,aid that he belonged to the \Van·Pgo Rabbit Board, and he com­pla'ined rather bitterly of the hcavv assess­ments they have to pay. Their income is £4.000, and £6,000 was spent; and he really did not know how it was spent. Of

Mr. Grant.]

594 Haliways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

oour~, t~1at docs not affect the people in our drstnct; but tho pcoplo who ~q;e cc.ast­ward from Emerald have to pay those heavy ra.bb1t """essments, and yet rabbits are not w1tlun hundreds of miles of them. A num­ber of, thm!l contr_nd that our expenditure on f'a~or~.s rs practically wasted rnoncy, and thac 1t ls· not our efforts and tho he>tvy e?Cpcndrturo on rabbit fencing and \Vire IH- f­tmg and tho asser··.ments under the rabbit ~a": that have cau· nd the deere ace, but that 1t. IS the result of "Jme course of Nature. Erther ~v1ne di_,,easo has broken out or else they do noc find t>. climate suitable. Now frorn ono end of \\Tf _,tera (2tL•cn.-Jand to th~ othc:!: HPre is fL .";r ~at ! ry about dingoc", and the P·;".>L J .nnt out th t tlwrc is mueh ruo~·c hu. ·_,c donr in c-. ~ l~istricts that un·d bo or_ ~upi_u by cat'-l(~ but aru now uL.rl-:.'r In t:~'-- cat:lc> cw~ntr{' the dogs ~re n?t tcrri.L1 vla; uc th:lt tf1ey are in tb J s~.e<:-_p coun:rL, an:l as our ra.iiways extcnG Llorr' and n:orr Into th._: \"'v~ est, more of that < ~tmtr:' will l '" occupi'. d by sheep, ·.nd I tlunk an ,?!cart shculd Lc made to get rid of the c'og.

Quf otion-That the Biil Lc no .r ro;1d a st'·,o~~d time-i- ut and pa~<. d.

The committal of the Bill v;as made an Order of the Day for to-: :orr ow.

RAILWAYS BILL.

s.~co~;D RK\DI .G--RESF~~PTIOX OF DEB.\.TE.

Mr. GILLIES (Eacltam) : I de,ire to make a. f~w observations on this important Bill dupng t~e second-reading debate, and I thmk I w1ll .confine my ~em arks particularly to that portwn of the B1ll which deals with the 1906 Act. Personally, I am in favour of t~e repeal of that Act altogether, or the deletion of the portion of this Bill which takes the place of it. I believe and I always have believed, that the 'railways should be the property of the State and should be controlled and financed by the State. I am quite prepared to admit that the guarantee principle is a very fine thing il} theory, but I believe we have had suffi­Cient experience-! think eighteen railways have been cons~ructed since the passage ot that ,Act-I thmk we have had sufficient exp~nence of the wo-rking of that Act to 1·eahse that some very important amend­ments are required: As I have just said, pers:<:mally, I am m. favour of its repeal straight out. I believe the tax that is imposed on a certain section of the settlers !mde:r. that Act is e, rather cowardly way of 1mposmg a land tax. It is a land tax with­out exemption, and I think it would be more busine9s-!ike and fairer and juoter if the Government were to oome down with a !and tax strai.ght out, applying to all lands m the State, mstead of applying only to the lands of the State that are served by rail­ways for the purpose of closer settlement I have been looking through the "Hansard'; reports of the debates when the 1906 Act was before the House, and I am pleased to note that the present Secretary for Railways practically. pre.dicted what has taken place. I hope he IS stlll of the opinion he expressed then.. And. a n'!mber of other members, promment m th1s House, predicted that w~at has taken place would take place. I thm~ one. of the greatest difficulties in con­nectiOn w1th the Act is the defining of the benefited area. Under the Act, the bene·

[Mr. Grant.

fited area is to be defined by one man, and !~one of us are infallible. During the discus­swn on the Mount Mulligan Railway Bill comments, wore made on the way in which the benefited arr·a was defmed there. I remember that the han. member for Chilla­goe pointed out that the town of Mareeba would benefit possibly more than any other town in tho Cairns hinterland, and yet it had been e:ccluded, whilst Georgetown, -a :-o,wn a--;\,:1y up ir ... the GulL hus -L:f,•n mcluded. I was rather pleased, per~onally, that l'vlareeba was left out, be\:ause it is in rny t>l '0 tr Lt : but I \Y•nt to sho"\v ho\v difficult it is to define a benefited area I :,.,Jiove myself that every mile of rail:.,ay built benefits the State to a greeter or less degree, and if we are going to have bene­fited an-as df'fincd, I think the ports to w!tich the railways lead must benefit by the construction of them. The hon. member for l~ockham~ton, when speaking the other mght, sa1d the town of Cairns benefited !rom ail the railways in the Cairns hinter­land, and that the town of Townsville bene­fited by. the whole of the syst.,m leading to Townsville. Now, we do not find these towns included in the benefited areas of any lmes that may be built, but we recognise the wisdom of what the hon. member said. The same thing applies to Brisbane. The whole of the railways leading to Brisbane b2nefit the city of Brisbane, and I think, as I h~ve already said, that one of the greatest <hfficultics in the :.tdministration of the 1806 Act is to define the benefited area. Rail­wa.ys, we are told, arc built to promote settlement. I have had the opinion for some time that, that being so, the Lands Department should be the department that should originate railways. I had a little experience my,elf the other day in connec­tion with a proposition that was sent to me froin my district to construct a short line a shunting line of 5 miles, to ·open up ~ fine area of good country with some millions of feet of valuable timber. It was pointed out by the gentleman who wrote that a private individual sought power from the shire council to construct a tramway and my friend pointed out that if this 1;erson was allowed to build the tramway he would take the cream of the proposition, so to speak-he would get the full value of the timber, and wh:,n the timber was taken off a wooden tramway would be no asset to the State. I suggested to the Lands Department that, as they had control of that large national asset-the timber-al),d of the land which was suitable for closer settlement, it would be a good proposition for them to build a short line of railway there. I was tol.d that they had no power to originate a. ra1lw'!'y, but that the proposal for its con­struction must come from the CommisRioner or the Minist-er. The Minister and the Com­missioner want to make their service pay, and are not likely to take into consideration the royalty that would be received from time to time and the rents obtained from lands so that I think it would be bette-r if th~ Lands Department set the machinery in motion for the building of a new railway under such circumstances. Another reason why the Lands Denartment should have t~; say in th{l const~uction of a reilway, is that the building of a railway en­hances the value of Crown lands in the district where the line is oonstructed. Malanda is the terminus of e. line con­structed in my electorate under the 190&

Railways Bill. (22 JULY.] Railways Bill. 595

Act. A township was surveyed in the dis­trict, and if those lands had been put up to auction before the line was built not one of those blocks would have brought £10. But the line was built under a guarantee given by th<l ,selectors of the district, and then the land was put up by the Lands Department, and one of the blocks brought £1,000 an acre. I admit that the Lands De­partment in such a case is equally as respons­iule as th ~- f:e-lcetur under the guaranir~B; but there are so many difficulties in connection with the bookkeeping system and the defin­ing of Lenefited areas that I think the Act should oo repealed, and the whole of the railways of the State manag<Jd as one great concern. It is very difficult to manage a concern like this where there are divided inter-:stc. We have been told that if the loLa] I:' •;pie do not desire a railway, they can reJect the propo,al. I admit that they can reject it, but that is all the pow<>r they ha\e in the mattN. They have no hfiY as to \VI,! :·e. the ra~lv 1.y ~wll t,') or ho\\. it shall be hull m· hoy; it dull be 1llanaged after it is built. It is a sound democratic doctrine that there should be no taxation without reprH<mtation, and if the local authority .are to be held rospomibL; for any loe3 on th~ working o£ a. railway, it is only fair that they should have some say as to the route the line shall take and the m<Jthod in which it shall be comtructed.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The lO<lal authority can borrow mom•y and build a tramway.

Mr. GILLIES: I was going to deal with that point, and to suggest that it is only a fair thing for th!l Government to bay to a local authority, " If you build a tramway, we will advance you the money for that pur­pose on the same terms as we get in Lon­don." I venture to my that if the local authority in my district were managing the railway there, they would not allow it to go on for a whole year making a loss of .£21 a dD: in one instanca and .£9 a day in an­other instance, rat would say, " This railway is not paying. \Ve shall hav'' to reduce the train service to £our trains a ·week or our~ tail expenditure in some way, or inm.·ease or adjust the freights, so that the line shall not be worked at a loss to the guarantors." But I am opposed to the local authorities having the management of local railways; I am opposed to divided authority in this matter. All raiiW!'YS should be financed and controlled by the State, and for that reason I am opposed to the guarantJJe .system. I am quite aware that the object of the guar­antee system-a >ery laudable <me-was to do away with politir:d logrolling- and prevent the huildin,.>; of lines in places wherE' th0y would not pay. The principle is right, but I think some other means might c0 adopt-ed to atta,in the object de,"ired. The guarantee s.~':otem involves a lot of bookke0ping of a wfficult nature, and the present S'. stEm is un­fa.ir to the guarantors. \Yhcn pc"uplo accept a railway under the Railway' GuarPntee Act, th~y accept it on the departmental esti­mate of its cost, and not on its actual cost, and I think that if they are called unon to make good any loss in the working of~a rail· way, that loss should be calculat~d, not on the amount actually spent in the construction of the line, but on the cost as estimated by the department when the proposal was sub­mitted to the people. I have a case in my

. mind's eye where the actual cost exceeded

by some thousands of pounds the estimate of the department, and I do not . think it is fair that the guaranton should be called upon in such a case to make good the loss on the actual cost of the railway. Another mattm· ·is that the people who "pay" have no " say." I shall cite a local instance. When the Tolga-J ohnstono line was being built, the local people pro­tested against the bridge that it was pro­posed to erect over tho Barron Ri~cr. 'They were told to mind their own busmoss, that ihey knc-.;· nothing about railway construc­tion, .md that the engineers of the depart­mont were quali!icd to give 3n opinion on and decide such a matter. I maine tin th tt it was vcrJ !1~ ·ch the bu..oincss of tho guar­antur~ to intc-n,st thnnl/elvcs in the kind of bridg··e that was to be erected over the B.uroa Riwr. IIad the vie·,cs of the local people, inclcaJ or those of tho expert .. of tho depurt~nent, been accc~,tecl in that 1natter, Jl'-'"sibly that line would not Le showing tho loss on 'vorking that it is showing to-day. The tanks of the river wer•' cut away, and a low-le>ol brid::;e was built over the Barren. I admit th.1t a low-lovd bridge v.as not so <'xpm.-,ivc to L 1ild as a high-level bridge would have beun, but, as far as I C'ln judgE', a high-levcl bridge would have been a more sujtaL}c. cor~struction in p.~ch .a situa*ion. The result of having a low-level bri~l:;e th<:>ro IS

that a heavy train has to rush down llw approach to the bridge in order to get sufficient momentum to rise on tho ether side, and, according to railway builders, that is not a good thing, and in many cases two trains a dav have to be run in order to carry the timber traffic over the line, when one train would have been sufficient had the departmen1 acted on the suggestion of the local people with regard to the building of that bridge. That is one reaPon >yhy I think th" guarantee system should be altered. Again, the department ;hould allow the. local people to nominate an honorary board of advice wh{'•-e members would repr!Jsent tho ratepavers, and who would from time to time make representations to the depart­ment regarding the adjustment of fares and freights and other matters In the interests of the guarantors.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Would they propoee to raise their rat<Js?

Mr. GILLIES: I am convinced that under such a system the freights would be so arranged that there would be very little loss on the working of the line. This remark will apply to other guarantee lines. I be­lieve that the general taxpayer can be suffi­ciently safeguarded by the. adoption of the

syst-em which now obtains in New [5.30 p.m.] South Wales. In New South.

Wales all public works, if they cost over .£20,000, are submitted to a stand­ing committee of public works, consisting of members appointed from bcith sides of the House. They have power to examine wit­nesses on oath, to visit the locality, and to submit their report to Parliament. I believe that that system would be much fairer, and a much more business-like way of d~iding what railways should be built, than what the guarantee .~ystem is, and it is worthy of consideration by the House. Under the pre­sent system members are called upon to vote for railways that they have very little know­ledge of. The other night the hon. member for Warrego said that the Commissioner had

llr. Gilliu.]

596 Railways Bill. [ASSEl\fBLY.] Railways Bill.

furnished a report to this House aud his Minister concerning the deviation of a rail­way that he had not visited.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It was not true.

Mr. GILLIES: I think the time has arrived when a system similar to th<tt of New South \Vales should be established here, so as to enable members to get the fullest information before they are called upon to vote for a railway. If it is not possible in this Bill t@l repeal the provisions of tho 1906 Act, I intend in Committee to move some amendment,. The :Minister himself recognises the necessity for some altenction because he is providing now that the loss '~ th,, first twelve months has to be capi­talised. If my memory serv<:s me right, tho Minist<:r, when the 1906 Bill was going through the House, said that the first three years should be capitaiised, and l think it is a fair pwpcsition, if tiw provisions of the Act are not repealed, that th., loss, if any1 for the first threr· years should be capitalised. Agricultural lines are built to d"istricts in which the majority of the selec­tors cannot produce for the first two or three years, and it is a fair thing not to call upon them to mak0 up any loss until afler they have become wealth producers; and the Minister will be wise if he alters the pro' is ion to two or throe vcars. The ~i~1ister should also rcalisn th~t the pro­visiOns of the 1906 Act are too drastic, and should make the alterations in this Bill retrospective as regards lines that have been built under the Act of 1906. I ha vc asked for a return showing the actual loss on those eighteen Er1t>s. I venture to sav that the maj~rit,Y of them sJ:ow a loss; a;1d, if they do, It 1S only a fall' thmg that the altera­tions being 111ad0 by this Bill ,ehould be made retrosy,edivo. It should apply to those lines where,, the loss is falling heavily on the selector and the nioneer. G ndcr the 1895 Act--which was the first Railways Guar­antee Act pa;.,,ed in this State-there were only four lines constructed, and the hon. member for Townsville said when that Bill wa,s going throu~h Parliament--

" Though our branch lines had not paid on their merits, thev had been a great help to rnain lines.'"

Tha,t was practically the mmc argument I used the other mght when I nointed out that the guarantee lines in my electorate are f~eders to the main line, a:Pd are respon­Sible for the profits Fhown on thr, main line. I think they should be credited, not as 10 miles added to the actual length of the line-which seems to me to be an offhand way of arriving at something-but it ,hould be done i't a scientific '''tv. I think that those lines which are >:e>cd-;,rs to +he main lines should bo credited v; .. hh tho) actual amount of revenue they c<cllect, and if '"hat -~~'as done a nu1nber of t~e pr?JC:nG guarantz ::1 hnes would not be ehowm;,:;, a 1 Jss. Tho han. 1ne1nbf: r £:.Jr To·~vnsville, vvhen hL said that they j"fCl'O n hel~1 t) the .caain lines, \Vas Ei>ying that not only did t 1oey upport t 11e-,l­bel:cs, . but they -"·~·re .1_b1 .. ~· to support the 'Ham limo-equal lJ - <:·mg tlnt a father is supporting h'is son, bu~ the son is able to help - his father. 'Ihe han. member for TownRVille went on to say-

" He did not think it a fair thing to only credit branch lines with the goods carried over them."

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: They are eredited with the revenue they earn.

[1lr. Gill1'rs,

Mr. GILLIES: I am afraid that I will have to disagree with the Minister, because in my own district the lines guaranteed by the people are not crcdi'tcd with the full amount of revenue thnv collect undPr the prf'scnt system o£ bookl~ccping, and that is "-here I differ from the Minister.

The SECRl.TARY FOR RAILWAYS: BccatL,c' you do not understand the subject.

:Hr. GILLIES: I notice that the' hon, member for :\farybo.rough endorses that. Of course, he knows all about it from the fact that he is an expert bookkeeper. I do not profess to be an accountant; but I have submitted to the ::Yiinister a svstem of book­keeping which is different to ·his. I believe that system is more <'quitable, and if he will only give it a trial he will find that it will be more sat"isfacton• to the local poople who are called upon 'to guarantee those lines.

Tho SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: And which would have left vour line £8,000 more in debt than it is now.

Mr. GILLIES: I do not think so. I do not think the Ministu has grasped the position. One han. member struck the right nail on the head whnn he mid it was a fair thin,; to make the provisions of the Act retrospective, and pointed out that railways in the past had been built to serve large landholders, who were still holding their land out of use, and that unless some means could be found to bring the land into use it was unfa'ir to call unon future settlers who lhed the railway to ~uarantee tho line; and I endorse that. A tax should be imposed upon men who hold large area' of land adjacent to the railways which were paid for by the general taxpayer. By that means large areas of land now out of use would bo brought into use, and a large nun1ber of p~ople would be settled on the land. There is a number of oth0r things which I could touch upon, but I will terminate my speech on tho second rPading, and H'­serve the amendments I intend to mOVtl in Committee. 'I am honeful that the l\Iinist.er --if he will not agre-e to the repeal of the 1906 Act altogeth,·r-will sec his way to accept amendments which l am prepared to Inove 1:~ hen the matter goes into Committee. I think that this is a wry important Bill, ,,nd one that very largely affects the ques­tion of land settlement, which is the mo;-t 'important question that this Chambec· can consid<>r. I hope that the amendments \Yhich I am going to move will be accnpted by !·he :.Hinistcr and the I-Iousc.

:\lr. KIRWAN (Bri-Jwne): \Virh reg-ard to this measure, I think it '"ill be gener;;lly adrnitt0d that it is a consc!id::ttiPg n1ea.·~ure, but there are so.me principlE>; contained in it th~~. it is quite. col,tpetent for 1~s to disf'uss on 1 he second n cding. I notice th,t the Bill )l'ovdes that the Commi,-siom,·'s salary ~hall be inc':eascd by £.'i00. In futnro the C\nnmi;:;:·joner is to get £2,500 a ~,·ear.

'l'hc Pr:CRS1'ARY FOR R \ILWAY~: No. The Bill provide.; that the maxiH,um P1t,tll he :82,500.

:1Ir. KIR\Y AN: I accent the correction of tb• ':\linister, but I may -,,ay that it will be generally admitted that the possibilities are that, i£ the right man is secured for the po,Sition, then that salary wilt be given. If it is not intended to give the increased salary, why is that amendment included in the Bill? \Vhy not leave the Commissioner's salary as

Ra1lways Bill, (22 JULY.] Railways Bill.

ib is at the pi'esent time? There is another principle outlined in the Bill relating to the holding of conferences of heads of the different departments. I think that the pre­sent Commissioner will at least be g1vcn c1·edit for having introduced that particular system. There arc many things to be said in faYour of it, and 1nany adv..t.ntagc-., that may possibly accrue to the department bv virtue of the fact that conferences are helcl ai various times with the different heads in the raih' ay service. In that way suggestions can be con1parccl, and as \Ve arc told "in a multitude of counsellors there is \visdon1," so pos>iblv the Commissi01wr would learn a number ot things thJ.t would not have como under his notice otherwise. \Yhen we get into Committee 1 shall have wmething to sa.y about the question of overtime, and I shall be able to deal with it in detail. I uotice that before overtime is granted, it has to be certified to by the officer in charge, and it is also left to tlw Commissioner to say whPther oYcrtin1e ,-hall be ::,ranted fDr that partict1lar worlr or uot. [ renwmber that a proclun1.ation V• as issuh1 SLtting forth that there was to be an eight-hour day in the railway service, and as far as practicaLle the large body of workerd in the railway Gc"·r­viee. were to get the benefit of that provision. It is like what the h(·n. mE>mber for K~ch,,m ~aid of the 1906 Railways Act, it looks very nice in tho theory, but it ''arks out quite differently in practice. If it is admitted that tLe c>ight:hour day is to bF a ruling principJ,, in the Railway Department, tlwn why doc:, not the dPpartment pay overtime when the 1nen work 1norc than thE' eight hours in any day? We know perfectly well that the deuartment do not pay overtime at the presi'nt tinw. Th0y dodge~ it by all manner of means, and tho Ieos sa1d of some of the means adopted the better. I intend to go into that matter wh n that particular elausc j~ before the Committee. I contend that if a raihvay employee work~ ten hours on any day, he sh<luld be paid for hvo hours over­time. If he is not paid overtime, then it is not carryin:; out the spirit of tim proclama­tion -which proclain1td an eight-hour day. \Vhen a man wcn·ks ten hours one day he will probably he told on the followinrr day that lll' must only work six hours. Quite :rpcently the ::Ylinie.LC>r for Railw~ys told nw jn t-bis Hou">B-\'.::hich sh<YV\'S tl1at h1- officer··· do not. ahv tys give him the correct informa­tion-that nlur·h -<x hour \f~>'i the allowance for 1nen in th0 railwav service cvory fort­ni,,:ht. On puhli,; holidays railway cmployeh -particnlarly those engaged in the goode­•hed-,havc to ta\e ih<> da.r off, and althulgJ tl>ry o,ro dP)'Tivccl t'i thot ~ ight hom:s. tlwc are not allowed to n:okr 1t up dm·1:.g the "·UCCf'( rlin· thirtc?-n tL~.·s. \YlH'n lTir'n arc told that thev will be "a''!" t0 '"'Ork ninetv­six hotll's a ·fortnight, the-y should not i P

prevt-)lted fro~-·1 put;·in· in th,:t tin10 wlH-'n the)· an• (_ ")mp:-: 11; d to tak~· cj;rht hours oft on a public holiday .. An ;,_,< ;nc_:::; ( J1nr und; :~ n1 Y notire the other da v 111 conned~ion \vith thf' ched<: svsL m. C:~Pcks hrcv" hocn in·,ti­t.u1.,.·d bv thP~ d::_-p_.l_rbl1c•nt to cah h pf<lp](' vvho dPliberi teh~ a~i ·~Ll7l'b to defra.ud the-· c1Ppart­m£"lt 1·y -havellini on out-of-date tickets. or -wit.hont. tickc~_, at aiL ChP; k:.; ar0 ~'>illblj·1hed at )Iilton ;-nd also at. BowPn Hill.. The m<:'n who ar(' en".ao:<·d on the late shift at n;lrht-- '"'" thosr who knoclc c/f at 1l or half-p.·.· t i_ 1 o'dock to-nio:ht~h1VE' to turn out arr:ti'l 6 o'c-1ock in th0 tnorning and cl1 tv;o 01· i:hr(•e hours' "\Vork in connection vvith th ,, t her\ ey,;tem. Prcviouely they w0re paid for doing this early morning check work;

but no"' ... , owing to son1e i~dividual getting- a. virulent attack of a dcs1re to economrse, that pay has been stopped. I always ·notico that when the Railway Department starts out to economise, they always start on the por.te" who gets 2s. or 3s. a day, or on those gettmg: 6s. or 7s. a day. Tho ben<:iits of economy are always practised on .ther,1 first, although I think thev could do 1t w1th more advantaga and with" more lasting results so far as no~ only tho railway service but. tho travelling public are concerned by startmg on some cf the higher-paid officials. (Hear, hoar!) I hope that, no" I have. d_rav.·n attention to this matter, that the .i'.'l:mbter Will see than those on:pioyees who are compel!ecl to turn out at 6 o'clock in the morning for the convenience of the department, after being on nio-ht shift, that they will be paid for the paltry thrc•e hour. that they are. called upon to work. The-e men who do th1s work have to take time off to make up, and it works out this way: If I have to do certain work with a. staff of six nwn. und2r me, and two of them have to go off to make up for the two or three ho'urs they worked! in the morning, it means that I have to do th& work of six mPn with the staff of four men under me. That is a fair sa1nple of 'ome of. the methods that obtain in thE> Railway Dc•partment. I intend to test .the £edina .. of this House when we get intCJI Comr{;ittcc• by proposing . an amendment too provide that where men m the ra1lway ser­vice work overtime they shall be paid for it. Except in the case of the Locomotivl' DeJ~artment, the men who work overt\mtJ are not paid and do not do it for their own convenience, but for tho convenience­of tho Railway Department. The question of appeals is dealt with under this Bill, Knd I conrrratulatc the Minister on the chang& that l~as been made in making the appeal board.·; more erjnitab!P. I think that, with the change that has l een made in the method of appointing rteprcsentatives on the board, with -a polico n1agistrate to prt;side over them, b•tter rPsults will be obtamed, and tha machinery will not be so. cumbersome and neither ·will it be so expcnsr ve; and, generally speaking, tho rc•·lllts ":ill be bettu.. Let mG impr<•s;: upon t-he Jl.limster that, ''·non these appeals are being heard in the future, Iw should allow the Pre,s to be admitted. \Yhcn an unfortllnatc c_nployee is .appealin:r a:..'J.inst a decision given anainst lnm as the r; ··.ult of a bn-':leh oi the- r{·::;ulations or a. mish·<p of 'orne ·"'rt. why ehould not the Pre~ o; be admittr•d when his case is heard, ju• ;, as the Pr0·,s w~ re admitted when tho strikers were b''ing examined last year? The board of officials who nt to hear the etato­n1P-nt, of th0 stri~;:er, allowr d the Pres~ to ho admitted to take down all the evidence, and, f->0 frr a:-; illJ'-;df 1vvs concerned, the Press reported verl: •.ti1.1 all that I hd to r~y. ;'~10 Prc>.·s "hould b-e c.dmitt<"d to all thne 1nqmnes and aC~IJ'c .• : The rer.illt of thf' ckpartnwntal inquir.Y int, •J i :, J" ::<f u~ph:~\,_ Cr,,r~k disas~er should impren u:••m che .i'.hm<-ter .the necess1ty of al\1" ing t Iw Prr " to be aclnutted to hear "' t,-;,t c· it1~ ::_._cp is bt~ing· ,Giv :;n. One of thn principle:3 ret.J.ill('.l in this Bill i:! in reference to the appeal m';.de by an employee who has bec•n ·.;nsp·.·nded. If he is 110t ratisfied w!th the decision given lw the departmental Ill· quiry, and he thinkF he has been too sever~ly punishC>d, or '"~'hatever reasDn occttrs to lum. he can appeal to the board. The Appeal Board deals with the appeal, and they may uphold tlw appeal or tell him that he got all he deservPd. · I notice that if it is "' case of dismissal, he has the right of fin,'Ll appeal

Mr. Kirwan.] ..

Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.j Railways Bill.

to the Commissioner. In my humble judgment 1 look upon the principle em!Jodi0d in that particular clause as r!ot.hing short of a farce. No Oommissioner of Rariway··· would feel

justifi., d in altering the decision of the Appeal Bo~rd, thA nwmbers of which have a better opportunity of judging tht• evidence, of ques­tJOmng wrtnes,es, and of analysiug the cnden· e g1ven before thcn1, than tnf' Co1nmis­sioner himself, who simply reads tho docu­m<~L\3 submitted to him. I ho.pe, v.hen "e get mto Committe:c, the :Minister will be pre­P!lrc·d to ('ive some reasons why that prin­Ciple shot!ld be still embodied in the Bill. Personally, I sec no reaso!l for it, and I do not think tho Minister can quoli. a solitary insttmce where any employ·· e appealed from the decision of the Appeal Bc.ard that the Commic.·•ion0r saw fit to alter the verdict. Coming now to the C]Uestion of the guarantee principle, I am prepared to admit that I have an open mind on the question. I have no doubt that when we get into Committee, and possibly before, members o.f this House who have had personal experience as far as the working of this principle in their elec­torab-~s is conce-rned, 1,vill furnish us with souw very valuable informtttion. I wonld be inclined to think that the principle should stand, but I would be prepared to amend it in the direction of limiting the guarantee t,O 2 per cent., and thereby halving the re.romibility as between tho.se people who already lave their raih·ays and the general taxpayers "ho kot the bill, as against those l·· ople who, owing to an increase of settle­mutt, and the dec.ire of the Government h <Jpen the lands of the State for settlement, require railway cornmunic::ttion.

The SECRETARY 7 0R RAILWAYS: The origt­naJ propo,ition via' 4 per cent.

Mr. KIRWAN: Pos"ibly so, but I think it is hardly fair. It will be generally reoog­nised that a large ection of this Sbte ht ve got the railways they want, and, in many insta1 ces, railway• were built that cost a consid··rab!e amount of money, and 1t is a very big qu. ·:tion as to whether they sho•1ld have b;·.en built, and it is an abjolute c;et­tainty that if the guarantee principle ha f been in vogu'~'' p-~me of tho"e railways woulJ never have bePn built; but a•. the State footed the bill, they were prepared to bke their railway. Therefore I think it wodd be fair if we compromised the matter l.y reducing the guarantee to 2 per oont. I noticed when the han. memb,,r for Eacham was speaking, although he was very emphat;c and spoke in a manner that betokened that he was very conv{lr .ant with his subject, and although his matter \Yas of such a char ... cter thi't it would stand very careful analysis, the Secretary for Railways interjected that he did not know what he was speaking about I was rather surprised at that interjection, hf,cause I listened very attentively to the speech of the han. member, and it occurred to me that he was handling the subject in a manner that showed that he bad devoted some care and attention to the essential facts dealing with that view of our railway construction. No doubt, when we get into Committee, the Minister will be prepared to demonstrate that the methods of the department, as far "a apportioning the benefited area and the :revenue, are fair and equitable. I am in­dined to think tnat that particular phase of the question should be reviewed with a view of getting a more equitable system. I do not sav that it is possible .for the Minister or his officers to draw up a scheme or system

[Mr. llirUJan.

that would suit everybody. \Ve have no official in the Railwav Department who could draft a scheme. iscuc a timetable, or draw up a scale of freights and fares that would suit everybody. I also wish to suggest to the ]';:J:inioter that ..,·hn any departmental inquiry is held, even in the initial stages, in oonnection \vith any disaster or any unfortunate accident, the Press should be admitted. If the han: gentleman wants to maintain ihc Star Chamber businthd, I hope he wiil attempt to give some reasons to this Home why this method should be re­tained. I cJntend that the Railwav De­partment gav!l the whole case away" when they invited the Press to attend the inquiry held in connootion with the strike. If the public had a right to know the rearons that actuated the nH·n who .saw fit to go on strike, I contend that the public of this State are equally, if not more entitled, and have much stronger reasons for demanding that they should know the methods by which the department conducts inquiries, and also the general methods that are adopted, and the ovidence which is taken at those inquiries whereby men arc dismissed or disrated or otherwise dealt with under the Regulations of the Railway D<~partment. I F:.e th:ot another principle has been instituted as regards the amount that can be claimed by any passenger ,;ho may meet with d!'ath through an acci­dent or be permanently disabled. The amount is set down at £2.COO, and for tem­porary disablement £1,000. I do not know that much can be said in objection to that principle. I think it 1is wise to have some definite amount fixed, but some people may <on tend that it is hardly a fair thing to put £2,000 as the general value of a life. For instance•, no dzmbt if an ordinarv labourer wa~ killed, it might bo said that Ji2,000 is his value ; but if some star artist c .tme heo.·c from Rome other part of the world and was gptting, perhaps, £5,000 or £10,000 for a. tour of Aus­tralia lascing a couple of months, I question very much whether the relatives of such a person would be satisfied with the Queensland Governmenl if they handed out only £2,000. I presume the reasons that prompted the deputment and the :Ylini·cter in i:tscrti·tg such rr principle as this in the Bill is to protect tho [;;eneral revenue and also protect the department again3t any extravagant C'lahn that 1nay be lDdged against it, and which might possibly be assented to by some juries if the L'se was tried before a court. I do not know that I can sa v much more on the Rocond reading of the ·Bill, except to express the hope that the Bill generally will result in benefit, not only to the departn•ent, but also to the emplo HJes. I think there are "evNal matters in c~nnection with the ad­ministration of the Railway Department that might wei! he reviewed. I have pointe.d out on more than one occasion one or two svstems adopted by the Railway Department that could be considerably altered with ad­vantagf', not onlv to the department, but also to the trn.velling public. I noticed some appointments that ,~·ere made quite rec.ently --after the reui~nt dieaster-and it occurred to nH', when I followed carefully tho evidence given at tho inquiry. that the whole trouble wa1 becauee of the fad that the responsi­bility was divided. There was no individual who could be directly held responsible for what happened in regard to that unfortunate occurrence 'vh('n Rix men lo::'G their lives. I hopo that the !e,son has been brought

Railways Bill. [22 JULY.) Railways Bill. 599

honw to th' dt'lHli.:un-ent ti1at It 1s necessary to have <me officer in chargfl of derailmenL

vpcrations or ·whc!'lever an uu~ [7 p.m.] formnate ;,ccident takes place,

c~nd that he will b; made rc'·pon­sible for rr,to;·ing the traffic at the carliEost po"ible moment. I do not know whether provision is made in tlw Bill, but I hopf' the Mini~~-er ·will give us an .1sw:rance in Co1n~ mittc•' that it i. the inf·rntion of the de­partment to alter tl•··· method of inquiry. This is a question on which the public outside hold YPry strong opinions :.:ince the unforR tunate 8.ccident '" J',lm·phy's Creek, cmd they are looking to tho deparhnent to bring their method of holdiDg inquiri<·s up to date. I think it will be admittr·d that the usu,l inquiry is not satisfactory. It:. that instance \Ve ha.d officials · itting in j udgn1cnt '~pen their o1-vn case. There ought to be some kind of independent in }uiry, where every individual 1rvho 1~ i1nplica1>~·d, or against whom a charrre is made, will have an oppor­tunity of clearing himself. I have no hesi­tation in saying that any man who is proved to have been guilty of neglect of duty should not remain in the department five minutes. His place is outside. In the case of the lower grad0s thpy very quickly get their walking tickets, and I do not see why any officer occupying a prominent po•:ition in the department, simply becau,<e he happens to have been twenty. thirty, or forty y<:ars in the service should not be treated in exactly the same manner a~, the lenu-thsrr1a n \Vho has given thirGy or forty years of faithful ser­vice to the department. In the lattrr case, however, that f Jet does not count in his favour if he is proved to have been guilty of _neglect of duty or a breach of the regu­lations, but evnyching counts so far as the higher-paid officials are cnncerned. To emphasjse the point I have been de::t!ing with, &',cl lu lllll>tcss particularly upon the :1!iniste1· the Jlc..:c::.si~~~ for rnaking a change in rega.rd to departmental inc]1:irirc, I m~v mention thnt this mctttu hn been the 'subject of le',tding articles in the newspapers, and I m1ght cal) the at\0ntion of the hon. gentle­man partw:>lar!y to an article that apnears in the " Toowoomha Chronicle " of' 21st June. No doubt hi·, attention has b.een already called to the article, in which the pommissioner 1s sevsm:ly critiGised for deal­mg with two officials in the way that h< did. That artie!" pmreeds in this strain-

" There are one o:· two fcatu res of the wh<?le matter which demand e9pecial nottce We are by no means satisfied by the procedure of the departmental board. It was constituted of the follow­ing gentlemen :-Messrs. N. G. Bell iehief engineer, chairman). H. C. Stan­ley (consulting engineer), Charles Pmn­berton (chief mechanical engineer) and G. R. Steer (general superintendent). Both th<>·e lastmentioned gentlemen were at the s~ene of the a\•cident; both admit c0me responsibility; and vet they were judges in the ooso! vVe ·are not •ugge3ting that they would do anything improper; but still there >vag the fact that they sat upon an inquiry into the conducrh of :mel condemned others who '<ere also at the scene of the aooident. "The me~ hods of this inquiry are unusual. Parlies interP·ted wcr8 not allowed to h r,,·;n·?c~ntc d by counsel. The wit­nc,~.c~' ,' lltf.:_1°nts \VPre taken .~eparately -and ara.rr. There were no ordinary

rights of cross-exan1ination. Upon these separate statements findings. are n"ade. .\gain, at the inquiry the polrce and the department were represented by the one counsel who certainly conducted his case .,-ith ability. Yet his difficulties must have been very great and trying. And there was this furthf'l' feature: that none of the persons interP·<ted were supplied with copies of the statements taken at the departmental board for the purpose of the magisterial inquiry, .and the con· due~ of their Ctkse n1ust thus have been Sf'riously han1pered."

That extract goes to support the attitude I have taken up with regard to depart­mental inquiries. If nobody had been killed a't the accident at Murphy's Creek, I und?r­stand there would have been no neoess1ty to hold the searching magistNial inqairy that was h f>ld as the result of six lives being lost. I have no hesitation in saying that th'C fact that thoce men lost their lives was thD main re;cson why justice was done to the lower-grade men in th0 service. It is a lamentable fact, but it is nevertheless a fact, i;hat, had no lives been lost, there would have been only the usual de 2u.rt­mental inquiry, and the chances are that Driver Thompson and Guard Hall and one or two other individuals who are now in the service_:would have been wJ.!king about, and the General Traffic Manager and the Assist­ant Traffic J'.1anager, who were disr :ted, would have suffered no punishment at all. No matter how humble may be the position of a man who is charged with any breach of the regnlations, or who is on duty when an accident occurs, every opportunity should be given him to prove-and very often it could be proved-that he was not responsible, but that the accident or whatever it was was due to the mismanagement or bungling of some superior officer. Is it not a fact that the first accident at Murphy's Creek would never have happened ba.d there been on the engine a driver who had all the necessary qualifications as far ns length of service was conc<erned and aho knowledge of the Too­woomba Main Range? Some officers seem to think that they can send acting drivers or youno- drivers over these dangerous lines. I am told that at the present time there are no less than five or six inspectors on engines over different ranges in the southern part of Queensland to see that ~he drivers k';'ow their work, as far as workmg the Westmg­house brake and other things are concerned. If that proves anything, it proves that there was neglect on the part of some highly­paid officials, or why this necessity now for employing these extra officers? I hope that the Minister will be prepared to a'sure us in Committee that every employee will have a fair trial when his bread and: butter are at stake, and also that the Press will be admitted to all inquiries.

The SECRETARY FOR R ULWAYS: To all departmental inquiries?

Mr. KIRWAN: Yes; why not? The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS : Whv ?

Mr. KIRWAN: The public have a. right to know the evidence ''POll which these men are condemned. If any serious r11ilw~y disaster occurs, the public are interested In the railway management, and .t~ey ',tre interested in the methods of admm1strat10n adopted by certain officials to whom they pay high salaries and who are supposed to

Mr. x~-:rwan.J

eoo Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Ra1lways Bill.

have certain qualifications. The public are just as much entitled to know why an acci. dent happeneu on the Toowoomba, Main Range, or any other range, as they were to know why the railway men went out on strike. When an inquiry was being held ?n . that question the Press were specia!Iy mvrted to be present, not because it was thought that the public were going to get much information-that had already been given-but in order that some people might enjoy the humiliation that those men were subjected to in order to secure their positions in the department.

Mr. HUNTER: Because there was an elec­tion pending.

Mr. KIR\VA2'\: It might be because, as the hon. member for :Maranoa interjects, there wac an election pending; but I am afraid that the boomerang aimed by tho Government did not hit the individuals at whrm it as aimed. Ho·;~·L ver. I do not intend to deal with these matter, at n1'!y greater h'nf:th novr; but vdwn tve get into Committee I intnnd to dnl with them in more detail. I think the>re arc some points to which attention should be given, 11nd I think th•c ::Uinisi•"' "ill give me credit for not rai:~ing thmn in any other sPirit than a desire to Fee certain anomalies or methods. which I regard as out of date, rcmedicd and the general admini,tration brought up to date, in order that tho general public maY feel more satisfied and there mav be no vestige of di"•content amongst the" general employees of t.he department. I do not intend to .S"-l.Y ;:\ nything 1nore on the second reading.

Mr. ADA~ISOC\ (llocklw.mzJton): I wish to n1ake a ff\\V rmnarks on the f,L'cond read­ing of thi· Bill, and the fir>'t thing is that I wish to congratulate th,• Minister on the work he is doing in consolidat'ing thcsn ~;cilway Aeh. He has been trying to do rt for two or three years, and I hope that thi,. s··,,, ion "·ill SC'C the Acts consolidated, and that one Act ,-ill bcc:omc law. It is always a good thing, in 1ny opinion, 'vhen .t:\cts of PadiaH:c,•nt are co-_lsol'idated. "\\r o saw that a few years ago in the case of tho Lands Art, and it h s mado that Act a grt_-1t ck:al easier to under."t:tnd by tho·ce who arc not familiar \Yith Ach of Parlia­nwnt. I wonld like '·a say that the whc lo thing will be in tho i:1t<rL •ts of the Raii­\Yay Dep::tlL·_ctcn:· ttnd a: the general public. I no~i,-D that the firB~ p .. d~ of tho Bill deal~ \vith the U'-ua.l proli··lina1·ics, and a.rnongst othci~ thin;Y"\ it F!lf< ?;ll->Tds c~rtain ihing~'~ in conn<?c· ~:::m with ra1t~q1ys and also certain offic0rs in rclat~~n to their ::abries. It abo d.eals vdth t:1D {Xi,tiP;.~ ruler, and rcgula­twnq and b;~·-!aw ·, and it is provided that those no·w in furcc shall rm11ain in force until oth'""'r·. '~l'C rnade. ::''o\Y, in LlY opinion, there are at the rn> ;:;cnt ti11E son10 by­la\V:J which are obrF1xious to the rail'.\a'~",~ einploy,~c:c;, rrnc1 wh1<h ar0 not at all ar;­proved of by the ven£'·P l pnbli0 of Qne>Pns­lant'. I wi,h to refer to nne-BY-law No. 18-\vhich proy~·1ts the ('Inploye:?s ~ frmn haYin0 any really active y,~ork to do so f.sJr as pollti­cal ccntests aro conror•1ed. I maintain that a r 1ihvay f~Inploycc is a citizen as nniCh aR anybody B1··e, and he should have the full rights of other citizens so br e.s political :,·ark :,nd action ar•.' conco· ned. Then thf'rc rs anotb ,. one which I think is foolish. For instancP, men ,,.)u are to be emploved in certain physical w Jrk are ask~d to pa;~ a

[Mr. Kiruan.

literary examination, and the very fact that they are able to pass that may not be at all the best qualification for the work they are to do. For instance, take tho case of a man who is going to be a blacksmith's striker. If he wanh th0 pc;it'ion he hao to pass this literary examination. It might be a simple one, but, to my mind, the qualifi<ations of a man going w do that particular work would be strength of muscle, quick decision, and exactnec.c of eye, so that he nwy be able to hit the right ple.ce at the right time,. and do h'is work properly in that way. Then we have the regulation which appl'ies an ago limit to which mon may be employed in the department ; for adults it is from eighteen or tw·enty-o.::le to thirty-five years. Ko,v, to my mind. there arc certain kinds of work 'rhich a n1an o·\ cr thirtJ-fiYc years of age would perform just as well as a man who is twonty-flve or twenty-one, and pcrhap& would perform a great de~! better. I hope that "rhen the_~c rognL.t1ion·,) arO look0d into again and rcfrarncd, '··Jill<? of these anon1alies -these things which I consider foolish-will be put aside, and when men arc going to. be employed at skilled labour they will be engaged for the qualifications which best fit them for that work. Part II. deals with the Commissioner and his staff, and I notice one clause dealing with tho suspension of the Commissioner. The Commissioner can be rf' .. to red by the l'llinister; but before he can be restored it must be by a resolution in thi,; House. But it does 1;ot say who is to IrlOYf' that resolution. Some of us think that when the Minister se<-;; fit to suspend the Commissioner, and then 'it is found that the Minister has not be~n warranted in his action, he himself chould be the man to­come down and moYe his restoration.

The SECRETARY FOR RAIL WAYS: It lea VCS·

the question open for anybody.

Mr. ~\.DAMSON: We think it should not be left an open question. We think it should be a quBstion for the Minister, who sees that a charge has been made \1 hich is un­founded, and has been made on insufficient evidence, and he should J,e man enough to come to the House and withdraw it and rcin3tato hin1 in the u:<nal way.

The SEC:l:ETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Surely any ::\finister v o:Jid do that.

lVIr. _.._\DAlt.ISON: I thir/\: it L; an in1por­iant matter, dthough it is not one of the· J:wst importa·1t. Then tlwre is the 1natter of ovf'rtinle. Other han. 1:ncn1bcrs have­referred to it, and I ''":-tnt t'> sa'-"' 11·hat 1nen han' ;c:•.id to me. The:· ho1d F1at €'very day shou.ld s1 ··~nd by itself, a:· d tho eight-hours ~ysi<_ n should be n:,;~de a realit~T and not a .. hem. as the:v hold it i;; to-dr:.:. I hope th. :Mini,ter wi!I take noticu of this. Another n,,-ttt-0r is in rc·L.tion to thC' ;'ppeal board; an¢! I do not V'lc<,!lt ~.:> rcprat an:;:-i"hing- that h ~.:! I ·--~en utterC'd D•.? ti>~ hon. nle,nbcr for llrisL.J.UD. But I r·.?.i:dC'tnber that there T\ore· : ·)nlc en·-~- i1: ::.\1>rybon;ugh ~ )111{ :irne ago, , m! tJ:,,, f: 'ling then ,1s that it v.ould bo a ~~ood thing if i~cy· had an in{~.._·p·,::~ndent bf,a,·d, apart c.Jto~ethor fron1 tho d"P~'rtm-'-'n-i:", Y ith a pol:( e lnflgi;.,trat,', and po\v:cr to call {''::port evidt'nc;::o, a.nd v::ithout the Con1n1is­sioncr or any of bis officrTs sitting on a case where thn· wcro rc'lllv defendr,nb.

Th·. STcCRETARY YOR, R.\ILWAY~: The men arc qclite in acc:>rdanc.J with the proposal.

::'<Ir. ADAMSOX: If the railwav men am quite in accord with the proposal in the Bill I haYe nothing- to say. They are the-

Railways B1ll. (22 JULY.] Railways Bill. 6or

best judges; but some very keen men on the railways and elsewhere have spoken to me, and they have said that it would be better if we could have an independent board. Part III. deals with the construction and mainten­ance of railwavs. And I hold that in almost cn•rc·thing to "deal with tho construction of railways there should be a parliamentary or advisory committee. Again and ag"in Railway Bills arc brought down here, and \'n~ are askecl to pass them, and ·we haYe not sufficient evidence; and I am of opinion tlut there should be a committee, composed of members of this House, who would be able to look into all the plans and po.rticu-1 ;us sent down by the Commi~.·ioner and call evidence in relation to these matters, and then member' would be in a betic'r position than they arE, now to criticise Bills that are brought down, and would be able to prevent railw;;.yo that are not the best railways from bt'ing proceeded with. There is another matter with which I wish to deal, and it is the maitcr of maintenance. It is the opinion of manv railwav nwn that tho maintenance of our r:aih1 ays ~rants very carefully inquiring into. It is said by some of them that if tho road betwpen Toov: oon1ba and ].\l:urphy's Crct>k had be0n in tho condition it ought to have been in, very likelv the accident the hon. member has r;,fen·ed' to would not have taken place. And again and again things arr taking place which ''onld not talw place if the permanent way were in the <;onclition in which it ought to be.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That is a \' 1 ry serious charge to n1::tke.

Mr. ADAMSON: We are here to discuss serious matters, and if they are serious matters they should be inquired into. I am quite> .;ure the Minister will give me the credit for not wanting to cause any alarm. I am only repeating what railway men have said in relation to this matter. Some of t'hem say that the gangs are too small and the kngths too long, and that the men can­not do their work, and, if that is lrtte, we want to know it. It is not right that they should have to work harder than they ought and still not he able to keep the 'line in good ordPr and efficient repair. Everybody knows that the safety of the public depends on tho condition of tht> permanent way just as much as on the skill of the engine-drivers and signalmtn. And talking of signalmen, I am reminded that I have seen thi,;gs take place on the railwavs h01·e that should not take place, if the bioek f'ystem were in operation in tho pln.c cs where it ought to be in opera­t,ion-for instan<t>, between the Ce;,tral RajJway Station and Brunswick Street. It is to bG hollPU that ,. c will have no accidents there, but I think a great dc':tl more care slloulcl h.· ohowcr than is being· shown at the present time. There is also tho quc,tion of compeu,ation for land on which railwavs arc constructed. I think the general propos;! is a very fair one, but there is one thing that I wish to mention, and that is: that when puhlic spac~s in cities are taken for railway purposes they ought to be paid for in .. a fair \Yay, and got in a fair \Vfty, and not uni!cr a threat. None of those open spa?es should be interfereJ with unneces­sarily, heca.usc tlF• y are neceq~.;n·y a;; 1 ungs for the city. In more than one case, in Rockhampton and Maryborough, I know that public places have been interfered with by .the department in a wny that was not desirable. There is another matter that 1

desire to refer to and that is the guarantee principle. I am ~at speaking as the mouth­piece of this party, but am only expressing what I feel myself in relation to this matter. I think the guarantee principle is wrong, and a goodly number of my constituents think and say the same thing. The guaran· tee principlo does not prevent '"political pull " as it was honed it would. On the Dovins they can get -any number of agricul­tural r.tilw<tvs while in th~ Rockharnpton district we ha~e been asking for an agril'!ul· tural railwav and only one, for the last fifteen years,- ~nd cannot get it. I hope this matter will be looked into by the Minister. As I said the other night, the whole State is benefited by the construction of raihyays, and all our railways should be national railways in the true sense of the word, 'and they should be constructed and maintained on the national principle, and not on the o-uarantec principle. There are some penal­ties provided in this Bill, incl~dinv, penal­ties for drunkenness. I am m sympathy with those penalties. We sJ;rould sa~eguard the interests of the travellmg public, and see that the men who are on duty as engine­dr•ivers and guards arc sob~r men; but, if these penalties haYe to he inflicted, I hope the Minister 'vii! inflict them upon officers a< well as on the men employed by the department. I know one man who was suspended for drunkenness, a.nd yet not. many years ago I saw some high officials of the department who were as drunk as lords, but they were not suspended. Those officialg· have as much right to be dealt with as tho working men in the department have _to be dealt with for that offence. Then agam, as the han. member for Brisbane said, cases !Jrought before tlw Appeal Board show that some men ha Yu been not only suspended hut discharged for excee>dingly triviat things-the most trivial things you could think about: while some of t'1e men who are responsibl<', or who some people think are responsibl~ for the loss of lives are still continued in their positions. I have 11<> feelino- of vindictiveness as far as those men are c~ncerned; thev no doubt made a mis­take but I would ·rather show mercy than deal' out too severe justice in such matters. But I say that what is done in regard ~o men in such positions should also be done m the case of mc'll occupying less responsible positions in the service. In conclusion, I "'sh to nv that I think the whole \vorking of our rail" ays in r8lation to fares and fr0ights, the condition of the per:n'lllent way and rolling-stock, and tho condi-t:ions under which the emplovees work needs to b0 inquired into vcrv" fully, and I hope !hat a commi. sian will be appointed c ,nsisting. of mo:',lL,;n of this Hotosc and other,; outs1de this House who know .oomething about rail­wav 'vork to inquire into the whol" matler. I believe that such an inquirv will Le in th-& internt of the safch- of the general public, and in the intere':- 'of the R<tilway Depart­ment and th1t it will do good in every wav.' That is all I have to say at this stage o£ the Bill.

Mr. RYAN (Barcoo): I am abays pleased when any mmtsuro is brought before this House which has for its object the con­solidation of Iaws rebting to any particular subject. In 1910 we had a measure consoli­dating the land laws, and it ,\-as very desirable that tho•·o laws should be brought into one statute so that it will not he neces­sary to go hunting all over the statute-book

},1 r. Ryan.]

Railways Bill. [ASSEMBLY.] Rail·ways B~ll.

in order to find out the law on any particu­lar subject. Then last year something was done to consolidate th.c liquor L1ws. Kow we have before us a proposal to consolidate and slightly amend the laws relating to our raihvavs. But before such an amendn1cnt and coi,sol'idation is undertaken every possible method by which proper inquiYy into the working of those laws can be made should be exhausted, so that the 1wcessary amend­ments may be included in the amendments of the existing law. We had this measure before us last sc~sion, but it W<" one of the slaught<ered innocents. I beli<we it was delayed until the present session in orde1• to haye C':.~rtain inquiries n1ade vdth regard to the comtitution of the a: .. peal bo:rd.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILvdY.l: That was really settled vrhon I introduced the Bill last year, only it was not settled in time to get the amendmr·nts printed in the Bill as sub. mitted to the House.

Mr. RYAN : ·whatever may ha·1 e been the neccsoity for hurry in connection with the consolidation of the hnd la"s, the ;arne urgency does not exist with regHd t.) the consolidation of the laws relating to •Jur rc.il­ways. At all events, I think the urgency is not such that a thorough inquiry should not be n1ade intv the variou-:.; 1natter:- ·which 1nay ailed: the n1mnbr1s of thi,: I-Iouse in arriving at ,, c llli 'ncio'l a. t,J what would Le prop8r Lmendrncnt=; to ILak,_ in the existing railway lawF, It may be that t!J,, Haih,·ay Appeal Bo:c' rd :; ' at lH'CS·~nt con."titn' ?d fk,~s not giv-e s~tisfa, cion to the ('Ylploj' .1 ., in tho rc.ilway scLvi··:r, a·:d if that L so there is r~ot.hir::g to prev:Jnt fw l\1ini ·.ter introd-;;cing .1, short Ine:..t­suro tu a:m .. l the Act ,·, Jing with the Raihvay App' ,-J Board, \vi thou:, at ihe r- :11ne time brint::i~~g in a measure ) ) consolidate th" ·w:~:Je of the l.tw · rt.l~t.i.ng· to our rail­ways, I : .q that in c,sr, thor' might be any sup;gestion mcdco tho,t I 1 avo an:' desire to P"'·tpon8 ''hat is a dccirablo amendment in that particular A<'~, ·with tho vir)T ,7 of having a full and thor!,ugh investigation Lla.de \Vith reg.;rd to othE; n1;,~~tcrs that I think nrgentl:v require inve·tirntion., I shJuld not like it to be thought that in w},at I say I am s•,eak­ins in cnndcn1nJ.tion of the office!'S ,",,.~ho are in ~har .. :e of the Railway DepartmJ?nt. I am sp0aking in ::1is IUJ.rner rather because I thi•1k cuc·h "tll ah1o,ophere has been created of late tl,~t an inYestigation is l1E-\'13ssarv. Such an 'nqniry may show that the manag~­me:c,t <:f !h-~ railways is as good as it could h<; or it nw T kad to borne other conclu: ion. Howcy::r that 1m:y be, I am qui(e S'ltisfied that, as :·. r<'sult of the lam2ntable accident vrhich 1·q ·_·ntl: hapvened on the raihvay line at ~:Iurph~\ 's C;·'--ck, a certain an1ount of ap­prehension exi ,ts in the minds of the nublic as to tho nwnner in whir>h cettain ,.;meers uc.-ricd octt their duti's on that occasion. Th~>ro il'3 a C'', rtain a1nount of aunrehension in th' mind•. of th0 public as to ~vhether the officers on that occasion exactly understood t 1 eir dutie", and as to whether their duties were well de£.ned. There have also been sev<:>ral accidents of late throughout Quc0ns­lan"J on our Taihvays, and so1ne peonle may be inclined to think that they are' due to similar cau ·!:•. F01· mvself, I 'think it only right to : 'Y tl.at upon th< se mati.,ers I cx­prr'"' no opinion. I do not blame the Com­missiomT for Railwa:vs, hecause I think it wouH be most unfair for me to take ad­<vanbge of my position in this House to make

~Mr. Ryan.

an attack upon the Commissiom·r or upon any officer in charge of any of the drfferent br'lnches of the denartment, without hav'ing a full inquiry made "'into it. But I do say this, that I kn'Ow that there is such a feeling amongst a large section of the public, and also amongst the railway employees themselves­that they woul.J hail \1 ith pleasure th~ ~p­pointment of some con:11)etent . comm1s~wn to make thorough mveshgatwn mto varwus matters which I propm-e to delineate before I sit clown, and with that object L propose before rcstunino- ITIY '_.t.'at, to move an amend­ment to tho r~oti;,n that the Bill be now read a <econd time. The object of the amendment will be to postpone the second reading of this measure until ": Roy~! Com­mibsion has been appomted, whwh >Yll! make au investigation and report to Parhament upon the various matters which I pr?pose to mention in my amendm'ent. For the mforma­tion of the :Yiini ... ,ter, I propose to go seriatum throucrh tLc 1natterC" ·which I think require .such investigation before~ a consolidation of the law takes pla2e, and I feel that both the public and the re;ih av service are of opinion that such ct coinlnih~:ion of inquiry is far mm·e urgent than the con"olidation of the la v:t rela tinu to cur raih' ays at the pre­sent moment. ·what I propose i.v move is-

" That all the word"'.· after th!l word ' be ' bo deleted \vith a vie"'r to inherting the words ' postponed ,, ith the object of fh ')t appointing a Royal Con~n1is~ion to inr,..1iro into and raport to Parlnment upon-

.. ' 1. TL '" - :1 · ral 1nan l r;e..::.Lwnt of the n,:o£;n~·lantl l{aib\ i:-;'~. including the l;O\', ( l_'s and c"tutics of the, t(sponsible offic :rs in charge of the different br;}nchcs of the drpart._l·:':1t.

" ' 2. rrhc cvnditiol· ~ goy-erning ent.n.,nce to the st·-·vise, a:Fl the co.1ditio11S governing hour:. of du\\', 1.:vn~y,es, pron1o ... io~1s, and .gc,1entl COl1ditions of ernpio,; ces in tlL~' ;,-- rvic :.

"· 3. Tho h~·n-_r :·I c inciency, •,afct.v, etc., of the 1)crn1anent \Yay and rJllin;:-­sto .. Jr, and provisions for tho pre·yen­tion of Ui {:iJeni.~.

" ' 4. T~-e 1 · n·c ~1a~ r' of ~tares and letting of CJntrn.ct3.

'' • 5. Tiw nlBthods c(' pr.e1 11ting and adjuding industrial and other dis­putes in the Railway Department.

" '6. The ad vi ableness of appointing an ._tdvi.-.orv board to repoTt on all proposf d 11c\V r.1ihvays before sub­lniLting thern to P:'•rliam-ent.

" '7. R.aihvav frci::ht.:) ttnd fare-s. " '8. r.rh> an~t'ndment and ::._nnsolidatic ~1

of the laws relating to railway<. "' 9. RaihLL·Y gallO"C' and ne1.v n1rt.h·1Ch

of traction. " '10. Th rncthod of -:onducting in­

quirii.:0 rcsarding accidt-·nts. " '11. Oth0r 1natt01.s appertaining

gent· :·ally to th0 con~!-rucfion and managem•: nt of thr, Queensland rail­\V8,'-- :,,' "

Such a commis,icn cnn:.J be apj ointe-r1 in the very ncar futurP. Th"v could In~k:. thorough i:nvef'::i'ur:·;,.)lJ·. and l:cport to Prrli ·._. ment, and we \':onlJ then have a m~:c·asnr"' brought down which would have not onl~: the apnrovnl of hon. members of this HouSP but also the confidence of the public of Queensland. I think it would be a good thing for tho offic0rs of the Railwa:v Depar~­ment themselves that such an inquiry as th1s

Rail1c":tys Bill. [22 JULY.] RailU'ays Bdl. 603

,,,~ o llld 1 e made. It would certainly 1 D a fino vpportunity fo.r the COlTil111SSl01l to call evidence from various, officers of the dC>part­n~('nt, aifd1' fro~n outside sources, with the v1ew of H11crnnng thcrn::.elvt" on tlH~ yanou~~ n alter.~ hl which I have referrr,d. As I sav. I would be n1ore ccnnpptent to discuss thls lrlL1tter if ,,uch a report as this wore pre­srnh,J to the lio,u~,:~. I tl!ink the }Iini~:r•r hirrh-,1£ will undc·rstand how delicate I fP<>l upon a nuthet of thi,. Fort, vthich n1ight be constru'--~1. u.-s a c :·,ndernpation perhaiJJ of some officml. or ~:nrh' ofL:..::er, vdN) hud bh:m praYed L~, the r1 Jnlt of Hw inquiry and IllY 1-i~.ah..>n t-> bo bla:;_-_,?lc"s. Ther.e ar,,

n1att- IJ, J:uv.P\·c:r. 011 which I think I can UJake sonw re~narl...::; <ll 1 cennnent"' \vith­out unju,,t1y condPnnling anyone--at ~11 ~Y( :1_ts ~y n1:;.n1-. Fnr t'", arnple, ; :tke the Inquiry Into that n:.!c'r~unntr- rail'.niv au i­~ent. at ::\Iurphy's Cr0p'·. T~>-: (>rart'I_._1-·I.:.tai mqmry has been proved t l be~- I 1.ould not like to s~;,' a fare•,, bni_ it has been proved to ?o unsahsfaetor_,. lcoth m tiP' manner in 1•hich It wa.s conFtituted and in the det:ision at which it anived. It is quite po,ssible~inde~d It cs-a" Mibst-quontly euggestcd in the inquiry be,£ore tho rnagistrato-t~w.t enc gentlen1an, at all eve_nL, who ,had a _seat on that inquiry board, mh,ht be himself Impugned-a susu;es­i \on nwde by }.un against him·"P.U. lt is very uL:lc irablo that e-:ch a ot:te of affairs as th.tt should obt.-.jn. TheCJ, again take the rr:ugi~.terial inquiry-that '<"·as v·~•rtai~lv carried o.ut in a proper m.anncr. 'VitnesSt::i vvere e,-:::aininr .1 and cro:.s-exami:~P·.:. m:.:l th.J iLcjuiry \\ .~s o:;0~. to tl1·_~ pnb!ir. TLat is all ~- '- rV gL·::>d in i:r~ -,, a.t., but tLe lLtgj - ·.tc v. :.!R :rovt as1ced kr a der:sion. As 0,1C law is at pre'' ·nt consti- ',lt"cl, l 0 could not bo asked rJl· an.v d~ci_.jon. unh.:.~:J thc1:c ~va: :-.~Jlno particular ~o!n~IW~'.on tf'fU<:d .. ,ppo1nhng hnn to m:1ke an Inqr:Iry and al~v fo rpport. . . ..-\s the la\v at Pl'l go nt ~tands, inquiriP9 of this kind a.re not in thr- n,,tnre of c:Jroni;._~l inq·Iir·: •.::. fnch a _ _, \VC h:1Y-e in so:n1c of the SoutL.~1n Stat:~. "vlvrC' a jur_,, is impanelled and a verdict h:,s to Le giv~'n. Xow, thP Colillnif'E;.Jnc.::· for RaihYay.-:, afb::r the fir;:o~ priva~-· inquirvv, arriv ~d a.f a ~ertain de~_i,.ion. IIc '"TI)"' ·, ot'it that decision, i.tn.d .. I undPr:..:tand, go. Y·l it under s~al to the 1\'hnu:.:t,-·r. That- wa .. not ope11~- 1 until after ihe- rE'STt~t- of .tl1~l. Jna;;6·,tprial iP:v•iry, but wlwn t~lf~ rna·~u .. tenal IIF;niry '';a~3 hr-lrl, t 11r- C-, :lmis­E,.Of!0! adhPtPd, of. cour~n, to his original drr:ISion. 8on1"t1nng- yc'ry rxtrJ,tJl. ~in1.rv \vould !laYr- to hn11p;-:.n to ca·t::;e l·i1n ~o d( J;H;t ~rom th_1:·, clt'fli~_;,_Jn .. Shon\i h_0 l·; ph,,-.:'ld in dn'- 1.1~ 1hon of t, 1~1u~ a nHl.f-OStenal decision .:...Jfe~ hng hir; origina1 (;)nc'n(;'~on;,? I do :not ih> k L:> Fhould. I thin1: sony~ fin•lin~rs -bon1d ha~. e bcPn n1adP b:;r tl:,• pari1cuL .. r court e?nductik-;; tlw inquiry. I n1ay that in tn~ rl.atform of this part_\' then <uch a provision. I am f..pc·~king· from mf'Ih;J.r;r, l·nt I remPn1lF•r the prono.,.al comin~; for,..-·,:ird in a. couveution---I think it \Yas proposed hv rhn hon. mec.lh 'r for \Varree;o--that ti.ere should l·f_;. ~ ·>rot·n.r:::' courts '"-'hC'~·: a j_nr,v wo.uJd . bP 1mpannell0d and :-.( Yf'fUH_ t given. I thrnk th-''""~ inCiuiries ~hould h( conr1vctrr1 in thnt. n1anner. and that no othPr ~vsten1 of inouitv is satisfacf."Jry to thf' publiC. _\s far ~ls. 1: c;m g_ath .'' from r<',::rlinr-, tho Pre'o- rppn'Y'' nf t.nat mqmry, the P118ct 11- h:,d, or was hkPlv to have, was to m:,ke officers of tlw ck:Jnrt­TIH'n.t .":ou~nif';ous of ef,c'h ulhc-r. It is ~Yf'ry undesirabL" that ii-- should haYC' any such ~ffect as tbrtt. I think that is a nlifl~· that should b·" done av. ay with, ard that anv inquiries into dEaths of that sort should, at. all evenh, be conducted by some tribunal,

which will be able to ,f;ive a deci~~on quite indLp01HlerLt of the Con1n1is~;1oner for l{a:l­ways himself. In saying that, I am nox condemning the Railway Commissimwr. I hold r11v decision on all tlH se matters untii .a cvn1p!:tc-nt conllni:-.;;,ioll is appointed, \vhicli would n•port, and on ~hat r.:port l -v.-ou1J rPl;c ; but I do say lhat the feeling i~ such that a commission 0£ that sort should be appointed. Take one otb,,r matter whid1 I shall refer to here as an illu,_:otration~-the advisablt>lH ·,B of appoin~ 1:ng an advi~ory l .. dard to n_'lFHt on all propo~{·d ne\\ rail ways before subrnirting then1 to Parliament. '\Ye haTe this oug .c-rinn to deviatL' the Great \Yelitern H.ailwav. Is not that a Inatter on which '"' .~ should havL· so .. J.,·'

kind of board to n1ak.: inquiries anJ to report t,} us, and to ad vi;:;" us; Is it not d,~·-irabl(~ to have a eon1n1ission :hat ·would ruaL _, t h~ 11eccs n_ry iuYe -tigr~.io11S as to. tho re~,i tivc .uwri .-:' of a lin:.: into this portion of the 'o.mtry and a line into that? In the past, when propop .. d railv,-ays v· ·. rc brou~ht ;,::.1'orB tlds liouse-and at prc~ent I not.ic(~ that it is lwing said from this side, and oc' 1s:onally by hon. member, on the other side, that there is not sufficient infonnation 1.efor;;c then1 in which they can arrive at a , a'ishcl,,Jry condusion--such evidence that they wo:cld be justifi ·,l in voting for a lur~e cxp.en liture of public m'JTIL'y. Then, ag.1in. ..._, c baYe the question of railway fare' and freight'. 'We had a.n int _r"·~,t.ing dil-<~"-m!"-',ica .•ntly on private n1en1b('rs' aft.ern· <U1 at .·.~ install( n of tlE' hon. 1nr~mber for :\Inranm:. I-fe certain!.'~ quoted figures t1-at tD n.~ wr rp 1nost ~nt~re"·~in:; ar;d .vr :·y instrl!cth e. .tier~· we nave Invc:::/.i"t In our r:::Jvrc\,v svstcn1 of ~'uc,,r Lnrd bet' c·pcn ,i,;30,C08.COO and :840,000,Cl0, yet, we h,'.Ve freight which are, i:1 :·on:~.' instauces. up to 100 p,~,,· cC'nt. highrr than those ch,,rt:.;~d i::l :h~ shttr s·~cn~~ of XevY South 'Yalcs. '\~.--hy s~1ou.ld th~t be·~ Is this not a matter that wodd sug£: _, b it A If not only tv ho.:'. n1.::nrb. '3 o;· this iiou~:,\ ·Lut to thinking n1e1n~Jers of the con1n1nnity out­Q,idc~ too---tL)~0 rho p:.y lhe fares .1n:l f.i:right-3 --that some iL-Jniry should b i'1stiL1td with the Yitw of arrivi-1-r at the co~t cf srch thingo,. It seem, to L verv de·,irablc tl::nt we should In""',' 'mnet hing about the purchase 0:f stores Jnd thP letting of contract,. I know there are f0111G people tvl1o a.r-e of opinion t 11at t,m,)ers should be called for all con'ra,,ts over a cprtai~l ~:Hnount. ·rhat i7- a n!a~;-~Jr tb :t might 1 f'll be inquin'd into to c,oe ]!OW things have op<'ratetl in the past. with the vi, w of having -·Yrne provi~lo.n in:eortcd in the ntnv com<>iidating and amf'nding law which will prevPnt. any abusr.1 which m~~·ht aprear t<J bavo f'Xi~t.crl in tho DJ."'r. If such .abu>-~s have l~r- Pxisted. then f~H?re 1,vill L~ r\J nec·~f:·,ity to m~tke ~'10 saft'f'Twrd;~ \Yhi::__h T bJ.ve- ..;u::­gPstrJ. TakP -"-nothcr que5tion-the g,·neral efi1c1ency and ,1fF·ty of tl.1e pC'l'IYJ _l_ncn~ "i:Yuy rtnd rolling-s~r:rk and a provision for the pr·'Yf'ntion of ac ::iclc:,ts, The hon. r"''m her for Tiockhampton. whill' spc2_kino: a few 1noments a~o. madP ref,~rcnr~s whif'h the =.'vfinist0r described :::t:_: very pnrious I [ •tUHcnl,s. No ckubt t11 'Y y er< , stilt' the hon. gentleman woul I know that thc; hon. member for· Rock­hampton would na,t makE' such stJL ments u·;]c<.s l ,, h,1d c-ome found:-:tion for them­unJr·,s. at ~Jl E'V,_ n~s .. it "~a::c. n matter v.hic\ ¥Va8

v:ell {1''' rving cf having an ino,r;_i~:y m,<,r\~ l.y ~~ cor:. r ,~tc,nt ,tnd in1partial tribunal. I may 'W 0:1 throufrh ,,]] these hc~dings that I have Pnum 'rated, but I h.tYe made this motion '>0

broad lo my min-I, th::tt it cove-rs al' the math'r. ho.th epe~ifically and in th" dra'-'.n<'t !dau3<es at the end, whi<'h ought to ibe inquired into thoroud1ly before we are asked

Mr. Ryan.1

604 Railways Bill .. [ASSEMBLY.] Railways Bill.

to consolidate and anwnd the existing law, with the exception, perhaps, of the prr•oent Act dealing with appeals of employees. I say that that portion might be amended immediately, as there is nothin_r: to prcvont that being done. There IS no need to wait until the con~olidatinf; 1neusure i~, introclncecl in that rt· -pcct, ond we c-hould bring in th _, an1c,nding legislation that is ncc.;s:~n.ry ahnO'?t immediat•,ly. \Ye had a Liquor Act pass(d last ccc•ion, and we find thut the Premier is prop(,;ing to an.end it in certain particu­lars. I do. not know how far those particularc extend, but i£ the thing had been gone through carefully by the Government hen it was bt'fore the House, there would havr> bcnn no ncccssitv for that anJr'ndnH•nt. I a1n n1oving it o1l Yery b~ oad lines, quit,~ in a non-party spirit, and entirely \Vith tho object of eliciting infor1nation that, I think, will make for the go.od of our railway s~.otC'm, for the good of our raihvay officials from the higheet to tho lowest, and for 1:1-.c ~ood of the whole of tho people o.f Quccnslau.l. \{ith that objr I move the amendment accortl­irogly.

::\lr. IIV:'\TER: I have nmch pleasure in seconding the amendment. In doing so I may suy that 1 support· it for the reasons given by the hon. the leader of the Opposi­tion, and others which I propose to submit. I regard this as one of the most important measures that hanJ come before this Cham­ber for many :years, beccmse it dC'.'Lls >vith the higgcst business that we have got in the Stat<>. Our railwavs have cost tho people of Queensland bet~veen £30,000,000 and £40,000,000, and as the whole progress and dC'YC.!opment of the country cl<;pends upon th'2' 1n~~~ner in which -t-he"-0 nnlways are construct::>cl, <tncl how th('y arc con­ducted, th·!n it is obvious to evC'ry person in the State that the greatest care should be exercisC'd in how thPse railway' are carried on. \Ve have in tim<'s gone by complained time and again thaf, frrst of all, in deter­mining tho route of th8 railway itself, tho Hous0 has not had sufficient information to guide it as to whctlwr the railway was the b!"st possible proposition for the State or not. We have hDd no knowledge of what other lines might have been submitted that would have suihd tho country better. Thc,-efore tho Hour-.e was not in tho position to judge of tho merits of the r"ilv-aY. If, as we have askc:d over and OY-cr again, an advisory coin­mittee ''ere a:•pointed frrm this House. they 1Hmld have had 2~1 to all the n:)wrt advice, and would h- aLle to n.ll for further rPport, and thf'n s:'bmit to this Ho''' ' a full report on _C;;•:h of t:w )EOpo.-als thnt h:tY8 C011"le hc~ore t 1

1(' CO'lLtli~sion~l'. If eud: vpr(' don-0, then I take it that this House would be ablD to ·come to some c:.n~lusion that would be for tln benefit of the c-mntrv as a whole. But N1i·:; arncndn1- nt do"·> not ~i1nply dt•al Trith that. ll'lt it d, ah with the grc tt principle of every r~ucstion afTecting the n1anagement and affcttin!'· railway hrcs and freight~. Tho desin.blenc < of dc·aling with disputes and aJj1; ,,tin~)' the dif-l:'{·rt?nc..:_'s brt-wccn enJ.­ployec< end Minid··'r and all thc'·D things s<-•'nn to me.- to hn Luund up in the successful administration of onr railwnv svstem. Since the J\.finistcr has come do"l\:n ·here to con­solidate the Yarious Rn.ilway Acts that hav-e hf •"n pac,ocd since railway building was begun in the Stab:•. it see1:c1s to nlf~ it is the prop~T time when full consideration to all matters affeeti•1g the Que·n ,Jand Railway3 should be

[Mr. Ry(m.

inquired into, because this consoli~a~ing ~ct. will lay down the m.,t~od.s of ad~mistratwn and the important prmciples whwh shouldc o-overn the future administration. It seems tCJ. ~no to be vBry unwise for us to proceed to pa,, this Bill without first inquiring fu~ly into the whole of the matters connected with its administration. A V@ry questionable matter requiring very careful consideration is the matter of railway freights. It seems to me that some declaration is necessary from this House to guide the Commissioner in fixing the ratJ;Js.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: Are the membcu of this House all railway men?

::Yh. RCNTER : Thev arc supposed to bo H>\~n of con1rr1on sense "'and ccnain business..­acumen, and to be pocsC'sscd of statesman­like abilitv, and to be able to deal with all g1·eat qu£ ,.hons that como up for consideration here. It docs not simply affect the railways themselves, but it affects the development of the countn·. I contend that there are some strange an-omalico in th~ fact of tho Queens­land railwavs costing h ss to construct than 1·he Now Sc.'llth \Vales rail11·ays. I think the figures are, speaking fro1n 1ne1nory-I know I am right as to the thousands-New South. \Vales, £13,600 per mile to construct and <:quip, whik tho Qnpensland rail·ways cost something like £6,300 per milo to construct ancl equip; that is one-half what the :'\ew South Wales railways cost. Now,. we find the Queen,;land Railway Depart­ment charges over 100 per cc•nt. or more· than double the freight on third-cla~s o-oods for a 500-mile distance that IS

~harg<>d on the New South \Val~s railwa;ys, and it seems to me an cxtraordmary thmg that wo should find the New South \Vales railwav: arc returning larger profit:. than the Queensland railways. This is a very co·ions matter. That is, when we take the­mihvays all over Queensland; but if . we te.k• indiYidual linC's--the grNt trunk lines ->Yc find tho Queensland railways arc pay­ing fairly wdl; sm:1C' of .thet;t, pay 10 per C(~nt. These tru!lk hnes '\Vlll olthel' make or ma1· the countiT and if we can send out frorn thc3'" trll{lk linP'• branch lint-s as feeders to open up good agricultural or good pa~?i oral land3, tht.n our lines are go in!!' to pay C'vcn be ttnr than they arc. at the• present time, and that I hope w~th reduced frei8hts. That i, part of the m­c•uirv that should be made. It should be th<> l~nRi;)~,-<~ of this conu11i ion d1at it is pro­J•os<>cl co appoint to inq,;irc intJ a_ll thc"o ( 1{ i:ails. bting in a rcr~ort, and. adviFO Par­lid,ll1C'' t \Yh1;rl0r the r"_dhYay frughtc; are too high, ~tnd \dwthcr tlH"~~ ar0 n 11 obstacle to 1:10 de· elopm"nt of the State, to land Lettle­nl'"'1; and to qu~L-:_o ,' nu:r, bf'r of r:1a.ttars deal­in" ,: ith tt _, n-lf'C:· ii of the man on thC' bnd_ Th. )t is Ol!{~ of th(· l'('Usons why I ihink an ~r,J01 J~lld<'n't C'0-,!1rllj~l3iOT1 shon]cl bn ar1pointed hv P·-rli ·.nH :1t b Hch~i e thi·. House on illllJ,Jl~::nt nH-_tt01-.; of this dr:-(',ri~,~ion. Then I think the n.~.ethod of traction, a:1d a uniforn1 r _tihn;;,- gauge on the n1ain hunk line~, a

1rt

Y"l'",~ unnortant I<HV~tcrs. and. on the vvho_~,e, I think 'nothing- but g-o~d could co,ue of the· ar,point!ll0::,+ of a C01l1Dli,·.,: . .J'' ;ll_<'•h ~S is pro­])Of'!d by thi·~ an1{•nd!nC"nt, and I ?elH~\:e then this House wvuld be able to dcd mtclhgently with a Bill of this d·O:·~ripi·ion, and put on tJ-:, statute-book an Ac: which "·ou!d cn­comp<t'·S the whole of the n-- •' ls of our nd.Jways at th0 pr~--~~-·nt d:mc. I d.) net say t\nt the- :Ylini--tcr for R2ihVJ' · has not bronght down a Bill \Yhich contains so1ns

Great We~tcrn Railway (22 JCLY,] Act Amendment Bill. 605

·very good improvements on tho sy&tem that 'exist.s at present; but I contend that very great good would result from an impartial commission, who will be in no 'vay bound by the system that exists, but who will

.. act independently. and not be bound by the limits of any existing conditions or methods of administration, but will act with a perfectly open and critical mind, and, at the same time, with a desire to investigate matters fully. In saying this, I am not disposed to say that there IS any particular charge to be laid at any official's door. I hold that great -development has taken place in railway con­struction, and tho magnitud0 of the business is such that this House would be we-ll advised to accept the ampndnwnt, bcc&use the businPss is one \Yhich concerns everv taxpayer in Quccnsl&nrl, and a concern o"f that magnitude calb for v<•ry {'arnest con­sideration on the part of every nwmber of this House. It is not sufficient for us to pass, month by month, or year by :;car, the reports 11nd the various appropriations for the carrying on of this business; but it is right and proper that we should, from time to time, inquire into the details, and ascer­tain for ourselrcs if our railways are being run on the b('st po,sible !in{'s, and to see t.hat 1vhrTe inlnroYcnH?·nts cc.tn be 1nade those improvements-shall be made. That is the 1v:~.y any business 1nan would conduct th0 railways "·ere they his affair. He would not b" s&tisfied to go on yem· after year follow­ing along the track of last Y<'':1l', but he would call in ('xperts and han: an inde­,;wndent inquiry to see if there was anything wrong with tho system, and bee if there was not some wa,· Lv which he could either give a better scr;·icG, or a cheaper SC'rYice, or in so1ne 'vay itnproYe the present systen1. I th'ink that is what this House should do. 'This House is here just as a board of direc­tors to look after the affairs of the St&te. Here we have a great conc('rn of this de­'scription, and one which, I am pleased to say, is expanding. L"nder the present Minicter, I suppose there hc.ve been more miles of railwa;· built than were built ever before, and, that being the case, it is right that we .. hould sec that the rio-ht lines are being l&id down for their further develop­ment. For these reasons I have very much ph,:t·,ure in seconding the amendment.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS CHon. vY. T. Paget, Jiacka!f): I beg io_ move the adjournment of the dcbc~te.

Qu('~:~ion put and pn (;:~ed. The rcsmnption of the d b.cte "·a~ mad<>. e:1

Order of tho Da3· for to-mcrro\Y.

GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY ACT A~END:&1ENT BILL.

SECJXD RE.\DEW-RESU:I1P1ION OF DEBATE.

Mr. BOOKER (IT' ir7 e B(J :,) : I may ~~~Y that I do not inlend to take up much time, but I inttnd to move an ,, mendment. I feel that to <t·ccc;pt this propoc-al just as it has been

submitted to u .• 1.rould not be fair [8 p.m.] to the House that pu.ssed the

Great "VVestflrn Railway policy of 1910, and it wocdd not be fair to han. mem­lers who voted on that ocnrion for a specific route within a given area to be asked now to recant or revoke what they then did and support &n entirely new proposition. The report we had on the original rronosal was from one of the ablest engineers iii the

·Railway Dwartment, and the House saw fit

to accept that report as practical and thorough. The information that is now suh· mitted is meagre in the extreme. In faet, on thr· South-western proposition, the Com­missioner's report takf·s up approximately .a colun1n of ~; I-Ia:nsard," and the same rLmark applies to the report in {'OJmection with the r\'viation from \Vinton to tho Hamilton. In view of that fact, I do not feel competent to give a vote for the second n·ading of this Bill. I desire formall v to move tho omission of all the \Yards after the word "now " with tlw view of imerting the following words:-

" referred for the consideration and repol't of & SC>lect Committee; that such Committee ha,·{' power to send for per­fons &nd papers and to sit during any adjournment of the House ; &nc! consist of the following members :-Mr. Coyne, :Yir. Payne, Mr. H&milton, ~Ir. Philp, ::Ylr. Grant, and the mover."

::Ylr. COYNE (Warrcgo): I am going to suppor1; the ainPndment because I fool satis­fied that the House has not got anything like tho information it should have before dealing· with a propo;al to deviate from the orig-inal route from vVallal to Tobermory, which was approved cf by ihis HouFB in 1910. I am rather sorry that the information could not bu n1orc cornpreh;_,nsive than can he got by a Select Committe• of this House. It \YOnld really require a Royal Commiesion to rerort upon the proposition before a large F>tun of lllODf'!T is SDC;.lt in running this line to somp place where it is not likely to pay for n1any y0ars to com·P. Since speaking on the c,econd reading of the Bill I have gone through the schedule to the Land Aot of 1910. I have gone through all the runs that might be affected b,v this line, not counting the runs fron1 ,,Thich n·f!unll)tions could be made if the line were run as it is now pro· posed to nm it-that is, in a slightly northcrlv direction-some 50 miles north of where it \\<ts originally intended to take it. There are other arc&s that will be affected by the line if it is not run in that direction, which amount to no lrss .an area than 2,625,450 a~rcs. That area is now av&il&ble for selection. :;-..; o doubt we shall be told that there are r&bbits in portions of the area I am mfcrring to. But the reason the rabbits arc there is the reason th&t the land in the loc"lity is not held in small areas of 20,000 anJ 30.000 acr"'· I may say, by the w:ty, that there arc not anything like the nmnbPr of rabbits in South-v estern Que~ns-1:-LLd no'>-\~ that thc·rC' nfled to be. but tht~" r."a .r n thcv are thPre in the numbers i.he •· are at pre-.,:::>nt is b-::-ca~ ... s>~ n1cn can n'Jt ~ lCe-ss­fu'l" b?eed sht n on wJl ar{'as in tlut. di~.­irict at snrh a gl~cat disL:tncJ froE_: a railway. If thiJ SP1

i cl C' :"Fnittr" <J.n he put in nos­~.,~- ·_.L~1 c~ tl::e infonnnJlon that it Fhould b~ nl.tcc 1 in l'O'" ·,.·'on of, I am s&ti.ofied th>ct it • ·ill 1:-~ c1: .. 0~yered that the large area .l have Dlf'nt~on~ ::1 c~n be 111a··-le availab~.· for ,ekdion immediah"!v ""nd ,.ill be taken up. I a1n very "glad that the hon. mPn~l_,:.r fnr \YiJe 1-Ja..,~ h.;q 1noved this arrendn1· nt, becJ,U'<~ it ~~ill give tho IIouse om lL f-le in ,.c,rn1ation that it has not f!Ot

no\Y. It has not got ~ny information at all now, belt ;: mere ca:;····,'l that this is the right thing to do, without any rea <on bHing ~dven for it. Th~ information whirb. can be g.>.themd by a Select Committee is meagre, because onG would need to be on the ground and see for himself in order to submit a comprehensive report which would enable the

Mr. Goyne.]

606 Grc'at Western Rail1ray [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill

House to dDal with the question as it ought to b'l dealt with. As I have already said, I han' no personal interest in the matter at alL All I \\ant is to sco a fair thing donB by S~-uth-1Ye>tern Q1:'-- ''rJ _land, \Vhich has been ai;·. :~·i, ~· pq~lc,-:-~~d hit1lPl't{'. It h.J_ }Jccn c,\;_· a a ra;.·blt \\' _;:(r ''!:1 f)Il r· •yeral occasion~, and th __ t i-;; Jn-- tu th .. ~ fact :hat there is no raihr~t:· ' Hnuiunic .. ~tion, un~ the S\ate ha', h an iu1Illf'l1'·\:' nn_;_oant of rcven.:e that it Y oal'l haYe go~ ii tl:·~ country l1ad bu~n diYic~,-rl into ~L ill :_ 'Pt: I Yt'lltUl'C to cay

the la'Hl j. 1- l'-; 11~ t: ·: S"OJd .· :< grLat dc--.1:1 of \he- lr::!d IH l ll~ ·in ;wll ar ;s, ~tnd ua \Yhieh pc0vh a1 LOin> YP <Y -;·,ell. I 1.vill give f•c very Lr·st :hat L.; in n i _ _. :"~H'It::Ing infrrnu-;"ic~n of ~~orhic1l ill, 1--iJ,J: -; shou~J be i.:1 ~Jo~ .. h')icn, ~n :, if I kno"\V o.L any :)erson ',-·1 ') ~-_n L' u:.~:uo. d :o r;_i\0 ~-idcnL·~ br~orc f·w S--: _• Co1n ni·:~ ', - d \\hn ·'>·illl-, in a po~ilion giY~ DL:t'e info>._nation than w,~ r.._ y L ~o g- :~ oth•_r~ 'i··e, 01.vi:n':"" to ·r

1'" hurri --d nrturc of our inc_.t'-irif's, I ar:~

goi:u:::,- to Pn(>:q. o,u· to g-_-t that inforn1a· io-1 for thD. Hot c L?fOL ic is acked to agLo to the dey;.atlc:1 no\\. 1;rop: ~d 1-.-::~ the :::.\:ii~liSL"··r.

j\,lh_ HUl\iTER : Whm this line was first propo·;cd I c-~-~1-··:.-:=:l: i-t. nnd l then g-a {' sBveral reasons for taking th.·. action I dicL One of the reeson•. I gm e thBn~;he third~ 'vas that the plans, sections, and book of rBfcrenc'B, which usually "·orB sub•c1itced with railways to this Houc'•', k·.d not been submit'.,,d; the fourth >Yc: J that it 1"epealed a 0ction of the 1906 Act unc1 er V',hich the local pBoplc who have to bBar thB coot b<id th<c right to voto on the Rcheme, and thB fifth was that it gave the Commissioner power to deviate 20 mil,-,s from thB line on Bither side of tho route. This afterwards was altered to 25 mile>, whkh Bven then allows, a good deal of jobbery to take place, Now 1t seems that the MinistBr, having got thB consent of the HousB to shift thB railwav on a sliding sc,11B, so to speak, east, wesf, north, or south, to the extent of 25 miles, now asks the House to givB him furth.r·r power to deviat0 50 1niles, 1naking the di~­tancf! fro1n point to point 100 rni!{ ··, in alL Now, I think it is timB we had done with that kind of railway building. This House should know dBfinitely where these railwavs are going bdore i,t votBs any money~(hear, hBar !)~and that 1s one rBason why I think that the suggestion to have a standing com­mitte''' to advise the House on railway pro­jects should be adopted. That is one rBason why l supportEd the amendment movBd bv the hon. thB !Bader of the Opposition t;. night. When this schBmB first came before Parliamont, tlw House was being askBd to hand over to the Commissioner and the Minister and the whole of his staff the Chief EnginBBr and all, the powBr to' deal with the railway as they thought fit, We werB handing over powers which the country gave to this ParliamBnt to sumB irrespon­sible bo<ly, and we are bf'ing asked hBre to­night still furthe1· to abuse that power that has been giw•n to us. MembBrs will remem­ber that on the previous occasion I argued that in ~- i' lng po\VCI_-- to· deviate- 25 r11iles we WBre doing a wrong thing, and that W<e should know the route of all railways from the point of commencemBnt to the terminus before we should agree to anything; and what WB did thBn is bBaring fruit now. WB gave too much power then, and thB result is that the Minister is now asking for further power. I contended then that the

[.Jf r. Coyne.

Conunittec was not full,,- inform~d, and that all we lmBw was that the ljnB was going sommvhcre towards sunset, but we did not know the exact spot.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: You are only using a figure of speech,

Mr. H'C'l\iTElt: YBs. But wlnt.ever that point is, it no\V is cli;.t:,;overcd that it i, not tho right . .-:>Ot~ anL. t.id line ftould go in another dir< ..:tion. 'Yhat i.; tho 11. Lural qu 'S­

' ion the t t::e House will ask itself 'I What a;., th,-, rca .. ons for this furLBr rcqu.est; Is i~ in the int,9ru;;ts of the SL~te? Is it for ~r1o bctt~r designing; cf our system? Or is it in the inte1·esb~ o.:. so111ebody ebe? Is there 3on1e r-- litic{Ll pull b ~~r,s used, in other ·words 'I These arB thB quBstions 11hic:h mem, ber natur"')llv ask thr.~~- 1vc,, and Yhich p',o)lo once ide ''· i:t ,,sk tl:e'L .. rives. \Yhy thi alter_~tion? \\ e kno\V ~hat at. the tin1e the pro,JoscJ wa .. :_,eforB the Horse on the prcv-iou,~ ot .:d::.ion, a fight v.-~_;;- pLt up to g0t the li.10 rnoved in a no.:_··Jlerl:.- .direction, and 1 ~te H l~!se tdlovved a de via ·.ion of only 25 rTi !L ?\u;,v ~.<e aro tU3ked .,. or further powBr, but as I o,Jposcd th3 deviation for ~' J miles, I clp not ::ee how I can consistently extncd tl poy,• r to dBviate to 50 milc.c, I a , ody bBing aokcd to do a bigger wrong tha.. the lim; ,e did on that occasion, I did not ,d-::;>rove o; 1".l1at the I:Iouse did then, a,~,_d t ~naturally do not intend to supv:JrL the r- e' mt )Jl'OposaL Th .ref ore, I intend to , uprort tlu amendment moved hy the hon. m•.'ml•er for Wide Bay.

Tiu SECREfARY FOR RAILWAYS: TL' hon. mcml"'r for \Viele Bhy, in moving this amendnc0nt, said he was desirous of obtainin"' further information, and the hon. member

0

for \Varrcgo said that no informa­tion ,had be<ln forthcoming, While I quite arrnc tLat thB hon. member for Wide Bay might dBsire more informat,ion, and it is always my desire to furnish th· HousB with the fulk't information in my power on rail­wav ai>l other matters, still when ti1e hon. mc;mber for 'Narrogo s11c·s that no informa­tion has h<oBn afforded,· I say that that is in~orrcct.

Mr, CoYNE: I say no inform,,tion of any use to the House.

ThB SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: The statemBnt, I say, is incorrBct. The infor­mation I gave on the second reading was the fullest information afforded by the officBrs of the dBpartmenL

Mr. CoYNE : And it is not worth twopence. ThB SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS:

Of course it is not worth twopence in the mind of the hon. mBmber when it elashBs with what he dBsirBs. He evidently doos not de,.irB the bBst should be done in connec­tion with this ext<msion, especially in the South-wBst. He does not desire it because· the information elashBs with his desire, thBrefore he savs it is not worth twopBnce. Now, the Com"missionBr for Railvmys and the Chief EnginBBr for Railways paid a rather lengthy visit to that part of thB State at the end of 1911, and whBn it is said that the Commissioner and the Chief Engineer did not travel ovBr the proj<>ctecl deviation, then I say that such a statement is not correct, because the report~I am afraid I rather WBaried the House by reading the full report, but I wanted it to be put into " Hansard," in order that hon. memberli­might have the privilege of seeing what exactly was reported-is me.-de by the Com­missioner absolutely on the route, and

Great Tre<tem Railway, etc., Bill. [22 JULY.]. Adjournment. 607

when he doc'S that and makes his reoom· mendation, surely I cannot give any better information to the House than that, espedally when I also gave the respective stations that would be affected by thio deviation. ::\ow, the hon. member for Maranoa said he was under the impression that there was some political pull in this.

Mr. HUNTER: I did not say that. The BEURETARY FOE l1AILWAYS:

I-le ust ~ the words .. volitical 1 -ull." I can gn-....: you, ?11r. ~l ='--Lker, and the 1nernL-:rs of th•J liouse: t~.< · assurance th_j-~ at, UI(Y rate, so far as tb} l{ail\\ay Departt~lcnt B tJn­l rn~J, thc:r.u is no r--~-liticallHi.lling, and t:hat the oJ1ect wo h·Lve in Yiev,T i t J sen·~-· the ili_'·.~~c-t'3 of the 1 o:)le wll.) al'e intE·.·ested 'in thi j_ 1rt~-- · lar line i' fJ.:..· as p~ iLle. \,~·o 1 ropo;:,e to &ery" fw in' ,,r, '-; of the people one th e by \ . .:::end1n0 t._J f\ o.t.h·L~.~·-'ll:r and norfl-\Yf )tor! co.n eL ·icns Jo1Yn frotu tho."~ poin1~. \'.here' it is prLJl0 1 -d th._.t ~---u<.h­y_·es. ~TlJ ex·, n;.ion hould t·~ .1(·:_, in'1tea~"~ c~ To b. ·rL;·:J-· ::. do :;:.< +, kr> w thJ."" ~t is n· ,2·

~fl.; fo~' ,nk to 8-.y YC:-".Y rllP.-:1 ( .l Cris_ sub­.;•-::t. ·:, a_,_'_nov:_;h onr couk~ spc·d;,:: or 1~ at ~r at lc1~·-tL. ~Iy o_.jeLt 'i- c:B_lin::; \Vith tho b11~in(· I hn.ve th _ ho:· sur to lo· k a~Lr i~ to 0I: it tho fullest infcn.nation and to .~;i·. e tl: fu11C'st ~r:for __ t: ~n, ~ud if rnr-'1\l­

bcrs Cl l~le IIouse ar{~ ot Sc•.tidie-rl v,~cll f .... ' inf.:Yc:T;. ·:1tion that y,·a-; , i ~en tn th. lll on tl:e .-.. :-__ ond r\ ~ding of "1~10 I'iU, I have nc.< LlC

"Iirh··.e'~t oLj~c~ion to , r_~fer t.hc Bil! '~o ~ St ·._;c! c')I::llrllt·:,~e COY~·t;tlP~ of L:c.nl:...>Jl''· of hi< Hom., I hop• tlw, ·.,ill be abk to elicit £urth2r inforn1'1tion th:tn I h~,"-e };i,_·en t~_:_ern, '1nd that SlLh inforrnation \vill be of bPndit to hon. membrcc'' ard to those who \vill have to he_::tr any loss that ~~1ay accrac in connPct~on tvit.h the Lu'ilding of this rail,vay. Queshon-~,That thD words propo~·cd to be

omitted (Jir. Booker's a1hcMhncnt) stand P<•rt of the question-put and negatived.

Quest:.m-That the words proposed to be inserted be so inFertcd-staJed.

liON. R. PHILP ('l'ownsc'ilie): As one of the membE!'s nominated in the amendment, I decline to serve on the Committee. I certainly think 'it will take three or six months to mquirc into this matter properly, and I cannot afford the time.

The SPEAKER: I must explain that the House is now plaf'ed in a peculiar position. Under the Standing Orders, and according to the generally accepted practice, an hon. member who propoces the appointment of a Sel··'Ct Committee should diocover beforehand from tLc members who he proposes should conoJ:itub that Select Committee their will­ingn• ss to act, '"' that the House will not be placed in the very difficult position in which it now finds itself. I hope that such an occasion will nev0r occur again. Ro that the House n1a'T extricate HsPlf, I IHU::it ask bon. membf'rs to allow the hon. nemher for \Vid•.o Bay to anwnd his amendment-which has been ac~cpted by both side-, of the House­by substituting anothPr name for that of the hon. member for Townwilic, who evidently was not asked if he was willing to serve on this Committee.

HoK. R PHILP: I wish to explain that I was asked, but the hon. member for Wide Bay told me that he would bring his motion to show me, and I heard no more about it until it was read in the House this evening.

At that tiwe I told him that it would not be tonv;__•nient for n1c to attend the rncctings. of the Uommittc,,,

The SPEAKEH. : I must ask the Home, under the circurnstanccs, \dH•tlvr tllPy w'ill ~\~t(>; to the sugg{_'st'i011 I havn 1~1adc, th~t the han. llh~lnbcr \Vho prop("_ d ttL' ann~na­Iner;~ houl<.l l.o:~ allowed to suL~~itutc another nan!e for that of dte hon. lLCl_,_bcr for To·--nsville ':

l:!oxorn.1n:.r: ~\Iz,fBEJ:.~: Ilr.~r, h{':•r!

.\~r. BOOKEI~: I Jiscur ..f'tl thi~ rnatt..:r i'~l f1'- L'1ll. nlt nlr-r £o ToY'dlSYille-~-

'ih·.~ ;_;p:;~.:\_--:.\.E.H.: (}.;.::L·r! T'h:: horL nJ .,_~ 1-

l.H'r L~~l \ 1~ l·;,' t-1 F'~lL_: 1 t'ttO aLoth:•r ~lUTne.

~~:r. LOUi~LR: alL"'\'/ tL l" n in,:otcad of ;-1x be c.~.·; ~tc 1 1V id , Ciat a ~i ·;; '- ~ IlOc. l­nine nK.-nberJ.

:,~ :;y I, l '. pe~,ni•tcd to to ;- an ... .t • •. L ·1 in e nanws unct '~:and th:~t that \vill

St JL ... -.·l_lg· Ord ·:~ -;-! ,, hic~1 f',Jinu_._itteo shall c Jn­

' ~1an i~ \ o '::. Jr j._noro than

TL -~PE_,_,__l\.EI:: TlF· hou. n1c-n1~J ·r dof:'-\ ~10~ apprc ia:·_. d1o p(.~if~o=l. 1,:10 1-IouHo h._._s ac-· ~ a Cor.11nit~ e of -ix: rilCIHb~rs, a·c1d. hcL:. givL_ th.-_, l1on. IUc:1nbcr -;.err~1inion to in , rf nothA" n ,em, in ENl o-f t 11at of tho ho=l. rH .. •Inbcr fo:· Te:. ,r'ilk. \-rill he dv fO?

J\lr. Hf'JOKER: I bL;s to n1ovo that the 11:~1.1e of .l\ir. CurL1, Lw h)n. n.:. -rnbC'r for

.trn~).rvon, be ins :. ; ._:od in lil u of th:r t of hon. lil·. ~1ber for Tovvnsvilk'.

.. :\.HH adnH .. 'n< at::;r< eel to; and n1otion, as fu1 t}Irr a·~l' nJ~ J, put Llld pa~-!f'd.

ADJOLE!';JYlE::\'T.

'l'he PEE:\IIER: I move that the Honse do nc.w adjourn. It will be remembered that on Thur;,day ni~ht last, \vhcn we r_cljourned, an amPndniPnt to the motion moYed by the, Home Secretan with rdcrenr,, to the intra· duction of a Bill to amend the Elections Act was before the Hom, •. The Home Secrdary is still unwell; but I have ascertained that he w'ill be in his place to-rm,rrow, and I think it will be studying th" conv• nience of the House to adjourn now.

Mr. RYAX: Studying your own convom­ence.

The SPEAKER: I de"iro to nmind the House that Hi' Excolkncv the Governor will b,, plea<ed to receive the Addrcood in Reply at 12,30 p.m. to·morrow at the Executive Council Chamber. I shall be pleased if hon. meiilbers who wish to accompany me, when prr,<'ni ing tho Addrr "s, will inform the C'1erk of the House of their desire, so that arrang0ments may b.~ made for their conveyance to and from the Executive Coun~il Chamber.

Mr. RYAN: I should like to know from th'3 Premier what the order of businesu will be to-morrow.

The PREMIER: First, the mot'ion for leave to introduce a B'll to anwnd the :F~Iu.:tions Art; ntunber 2. the Co1nmittee s•aC'e of the Marsupial Proof Fencing Act Amendment Bill ; number 3, the Committee stage of tlw Prickly-pear Destruction Act \mendmont Bill; then the Rabbit Bill in

Committee. and tho Raihncys Bill in Com­mittee; aftc•r whicli we shall adjourn.

Question put and passf)d.

The House adjourned .at half-past 8 o'clock.

Han. D. F. Denham.]