Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 7 JULY 1875

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Western Rail~oay Bill. [7 JULY.] Mis'!'epo1•tin,q. 695

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY. Wednesday, 7 July, 1875.

Misreporting.-Adjournment.-Death of Mrs. Truernan, of Tiaro.- Bank Holi<lays Bill.- Deceased Husband'• Brother ~1arriage BilL-Supply.

MISREPORTING. Mr. GROOM said that, before the business

of the House was proceeded with, he desired to call attention to one or two very serious inaccuracies which appeared in the last num­ber of " Hansard" which had been supplied to honorable members; and he was very anxious to do so, inasmuch as, if the state­ments as they appeared in " Hansard" went uncontradicted, he should be placed in a very undesirable position as regarded the opinions entertained of what he had said out of doors. In the first place, when moving the second reading of the Friendly Societies Bill, he was reported to havs said that the chief clauses of the New South Wales Act of which the Bill was a re­script, "were drafted bv the late Chief Jus­tice of New South Wales and Mr. Alien;" but what he really said was, that the Bill was drafted by a conference of delegates from the various Friendly Societies, and that to relieve the minds of the honorable Attorney­General and the honorable member for the Bremer, he might state that the legal clauses of the Act were drafted by the then Minister for Justice, the Honorable George 'Vigram Alien, and Mr. J. K. Holden, one of the Examiners of Titles in New South Wales. But what he particularly wished to complain of was that, in moving the second reading of the Bathurst Burr and Scotch Thistle Bill, he was reported as having uttered about three-quarters of a column of the greatest rubbish that ever fell from mortal being's mouth. He was reported to have said that

"Every person who had thousands of sheep or cattle, laughed at the fact that promotion of population was intended in the Grazing Act." He would ask, what honorable members could think of that, or what could the outside public think of it; or what would a gentleman think of it who, being very much interested in the extinction of the Bathurst burr, had asked him to send him a copy of " Hansard" containing a report of the debate

696 Mis?·epo?·ting. [ASSllJMBtY.] Misreporting.

on the Bill ? He had also stated that the onlv place in the colony in which really successful attempts l1ad been made to eradicate tbe Bathurst burr was the W m·wick district; and yet he was reported to have said that "the W arwiGk district was the biggPst dis­trict in which the burr flourished." He would take that opportunity of saying, with­out any desire to flatter, that the leading journal had published a very fair synopsis of his remarks, both on the Friendly Societies Bill and on the Bathurst Burr Bill; and, if he was in order, he would move immediately that the reports on those questions be ex­punged from "Hansard," and that the Courier report be inserted instead. He had not been in the House in the early part of the sitting on the previous day, but he had noticed from the report in the newspaper, that the honorable member for Port Curtis had drawn attention to some instances of misreporting in "Hansard," one of which occurred in the debate on the Bathurst Burr Bill, and which was the substitution of the word" substantial" for "subsidy;" yet that honorable memher spoke so clearly that almost any reporter could follow him. He was desirous of putting himself perfectly straight in connection with the reports to which he had referred, more particulRrly as he knew that there were a number of gentlemen outside of the House, interested in those subjects, and who were desirous of seeing the reports of the speeches made upon them. He believed that there were some other honorable members who had complaints to make of the manner in which they had been reported ; but, so far as he was concerned, he could say that he had never seen three-quarters of a column of greater nonsense than he was reported to have uttered.

Mr. DE SATGE thought he might take the present opportunity of drawing the attention of the Government to the bad lighting of the Chamber, and also to the draughts.

The SPEAKER : The honorable member is not in order ; at present, there is a question of privilege before the House.

Mr. MciLwRAITH said, in reference to the suggestion of the honorable member for Too­woomba, that the Courier's report be substi­tuted for that at present in" H,msard," that he objected to the report of the Courier being used, for he found that, in that day's issue of that journal, he was reported to have said:-

"That they were getting at the method of the Government, which was to announce that the Land Bill was coming on in order to induce their supporters to stay away."

He had never said anything ofthe kind. The SPEAKER said that he might inform

the House, with reference to the complaint of the honorable member for Toowoomba, that the matter had engaged his attention already, numerous complaints having been made to him by other honorable members that the reports of one of the reporters were nearly as bad as they could be. He had himself had

occasion to send to the Printing Office, that morning, to see whether he could have a manifest error in one of his rulings corrected, but had been told that it was too late, as the type had been distributed. He thought the only remedy was that suggested by the honorable member for Too11·oomba, and have the objectionable reports expunged from the permanent "Hansard."

The CoLONIAL 1'REASURER said he should have no objection to have the reports ex­punged, or to their being corrected by the honorable members; but he should most decidedly object to the report in the Courier being substituted for them, although he had not yet seen that report.

Mr. PALMER wished to point out that it was only fair to say, in justice to the ordinary staff of "R ansard," that the bad reporting complained of was not their fault, but that it emanated from a gentleman who was tem­porarily engaged to assist them. He might mention that he had, only a few days ago, pointed out to the honorahle Speaker a most ridiculous report of some remarks he had made, and in which he was reported to use bad grammar ; now he diu not think that he was in the habit of talking nonsense, or using bad grammar, and he believed he generally spoke so that he could be heard. He hoped that means 'IYould be taken to get some better style of reporting than the House had been treated to by the latest importation on the " Hansard" staff.

Mr. RoYDs thought that the continued complaints of " Hansard " only served to show that the Printing Committee had acted wisely in not recommending the publication of a daily broad-sheet at present. If there had been a daily publication, the honorahle member for Toowoomba's speeches would have been published throughout the colony; whereas "Hansard," in its present form, was only seen by a few persons, and the correc­tions could be made.

Mr. GROOM said he did not know whether he was in order in speaking again on the question of privilege ; but he wished to men­tion, in reference to the statement of the honorable Colonial Treasurer, that he had not seen the report in the -Com·ier, that all he could say was that it was an admirable report of what he had said. In "Hansard," it was a most wretched report, as words were put into his mouth that he had never used; in fact, it was a most disgraceful report. He might say that those speeches, which were reported before the adjournment for dinner, were disgracefully reported; but after dinner, when another gentleman took charge of the reporting, it was almost verbatim. If any honorable member would look at that sentence in the report of his speech on the second reading of the Bathurst Burr Bill:-

"Every person who had thousands of sheep or cattle, laughed at the fact that promotion of population was intended in the Grazing Act,"

Misrepm•ting. [7 JULY.] Adjournment. 697

he must agree with him that the reporter muf<t have been mad to have written such stuff. If that was the style of report to be handed down to posterity in the permanent "Hansard," he should most decidedly object to it. If he was in order, he would move that the report of the debates, up to the dinner hour, be expunged from the records of " Hansard." •

Mr. DrcKSON thought that, instead of expunging the reports, they should be cor­rected; and he did not see how that was to be done unless they took the report from the Courier.

,;y1r. MoREHEAD would ~uggest that, as the complaints extended to only one reporter, and as there was a very efficient reporter in another place, a transfer should be made. He thought the difficulty would be got rid of in future in that wav. He did not see what was to be done othenvise, unless honorablc mem­bers were allowed to revise their own speeches.

'l'he ATTORNEY-GENERAL thought there would be no difficulty in honorable members correcting those speeches complained of, and sending them, as corrected, to the Printing Committee. By the time the House met again the four or five sheets complained of might be corrected, and steps taken to pre­vent a recurrence of the difficulty in future.

Mr. JOHN i::lcorr remarked that, in former years, when honorable members had the privilege of correcting their speeches, a habit was fallen into of re-writing and magnifying them. He thought that, if the suggestion of the honorable Attorney-General was accepted, care should be taken that that was not done.

The i::lPEAKER thought that the suggestion of the honorable Attorney-General was a very good one-that honorable members should revise those speeches which had been mis­reported, and send them into the Printing Com­mittee, who would order them to be printed. He thought that would be sufficient in the pre­sent instance, and he would promise the House that grounds for similar complaints should not occur again. If the suggestion of the honorable Attorney-General was adopted, he did not think the expense would be very great.

Mr. GROOM said that there was also an­other course of action which he thought it would be necessary to take. He understood that copies of "Hansard" were sent to the various public journals in the colony, and also to the Schools of Art and Mechanics' Institutes ; whether that had been done with the "Hansard" in question, h& was not aware; but, if it had not, he would suggest that it be a recommendation to the Prin'ting Committee to instruct the Government Print er not to send out " Hansard" until the correc­tions had been made.

Mr . .P ALMEH thought that the expense of correcting the speeches complained of would be very great, and that it would do if the revised speeches were u.clded as an addendum

3 c .

to last week's "Hansard." If "Hansard" had been printed off; the expense of correc­tion would be very great.

The i::lPEAKER said that a meeting of the~ Printing Committee was summoned for the following clay, and he thought the House might leave it to them to adopt the best means of carrying out the wishes of honorable members.

HoNORABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear. Mr. GRooM said he believed he was justi­

fied in stating that copies of "Hansard" had already been sent out; and, therefore, the corrected copies could not be sent by the Government .Printer without the sanction of the .Printing Committee.

The SPEAKEI! said he might state that that also would be attended to.

ADJOURNMENT. Mr. DE SATGE said he rose to move­That this House do now adjourn,

for the purpose of bringing under the notice of the House and of the Government, the bad mode of lighting that Chamber, and also the absence of any means of warming it during the winter months. In the early part of the session, several honorable members had com­plained of the injury done to their eyes by the manner in which the House was lighted, and all of the reporters had complained of the b<J.cllighting, and that the glare was most injurious to them. Then again, the tempera­ture in the House was so low during the winter months, and the cold had been so great of late, that many honorable members had been obliged to sit with their overcoats on. It was really a risk to their health, to sit in the House without any provision being made to warm the chamber. He thought their constituents should know that they were doing their duty under very great difficulties ; and he considered that, if they could not attend to such little matters affecting themselves in that House, they could not attend to others outside of it. He thought that some arrange­ment should be made for having the lamps shaded, and also for warming the House; and, as regarded the reporters, if they were starving with cold, they could not be expected to attend to the debates below them; and if their eyes were dazzled with the light, as he knew they were, they could not properly report. For that reason, he thought there was some analogy between the matter he now brought before the House and the question which had just been raised by the honorable member for Toowoomba.

Mr. BELL thoug-ht the question which had been raised by the honorable member for N ormanby was an important one ; but he had been rather surprised that it should have come from so young a man as that honorable member, as he remembered that, when he was young, he had not felt the draughts in either the present or the old House. Now that he was getting older, he must say that he

698 ..tld;ournrnent. [ASSEMBtY.] .Adjournment .

suffered from both the causes which had been mentioned by 'the honorable member. He thought it would be very easy to moderate

··the light, the glare of which at present he felt very much ; and also to prevent, to some extent, the draughts on that side of the House. He thought the draughts Vl"ere not so bad on the Treasury Benches, although it was so long since he had been there that he had almost forgotten; but still he believed there were draughts there also. He thought it was a matter which ought to be attended to; and JlOW that the subject had been broached, it was quite time that wme practical effort should be made, both as to improving the light by shading the sun­lights and warming the chamber. He hoped the notice which had been given to those matters would be sufficient to make the Gov­ernment attend to them.

Mr. STEWART thought that, if the side lamps were lighted instead of the sunlights, it would be better, especially as, at that sea­son of the year, they would not be found too hot to be disagreeable to honorable members, and then again it would be very difficult to alter the sunlights during the session.

Mr. RoYDs said that, last session, he had communicated with the members of the Building Committee upon the subject, and had suggested that there should be a ground­glass shade to the sun lights, and during the present session he had mentioned the matter again to the Chairman of that committee. From that gentleman he had received a verbal com­munication to the effect that inquiries had been made, and it had been found impossible to get the glass in Brisbane ; he thought, however, it would be very easy to get it else­where.

Mr. GRAHAM hoped the honorable member for N ormanby would not think it necPssary to throw more light upon the debates; for, if so, he could not agree with the honorable mem­ber. As regarded the remarks of the horror­able member for Dalby, he could quite under­stand_ that there were more draughts on the Treasury benches now than when that honor­able member sat upon them.

Mr. MILES said he was very desirous of taking advantage of the motion for adjourn­ment, to draw the attention of the honorable Minister for Lands to a return furnished to that House to an order made on the 8th June last, namely-

" 1. Copy of all instructions and correspondence between the Secretary for Public Lands and Mr. Commissioner Hume, together with his report thereon, recommending certain lands to be resumed for the purpose of settlement.

2. Also, copies of all correspondence between the Secretnry for Public Lands and pastoral lessees and others, in reference to cancelling proclama­tion reserving about fifty square miles for town­ship purposes from the Pikedale Run."

He found, mi looking over that return, that it was only a part of the correspondence, and he

should therefore be glad if the honorabJe member would state whether the remainder would be furnished. He found that there was one letter which had been written by the honorable member for Warwick to the late Minister for Lands, which was not among the correspondence; bnt whether that was purposely supptesscd or not, he could not say. It was a matter which affected his consti­tuents very considerably, and it was for tLat reason that he now brought it under the notice of the honorable Minister for Lauds. He found that the late Minister for Lands had written a letter to the honorable member for Warwitk, on the 27th October, 1874, as follows:-

"Your note is recei;-ecl The six months' notice of resumption on Pikedale has been sc'ncd. Nothing more can be done till next session of Parliament: a schedule of them will lay on the table for two months, allC1 then they will be acted on. \!'IT e are open to an arrangement in this way. If Mr. Gunn woulcllike an alteration in the boun­daries, we can try to meet his ;-icws, on concli­tions that the lessee will forego the six months' notice and agree to the resumption taking effect at once. Perhaps you can let me know what would suit him."

He thought that was about the most extra­ordinary produetion that could ever have emanated from a member of a Government. It appeared from it that the honorable mem­ber for Warwick had been extremely anxious to serve his (Mr. Miles') constituents-eithPr them or Mr. Gunn; and what he complained of was, that the letter which had been l'nitten by that honorable member had been sup­pressed. The fact of the matter was, that Mr. Commissioner Hume recommended the re­sumption of certain lands on Pikedale Run which he considered wore suitable for settle­ment. From information he had received, he believed that those lands were suitable; and although the resumption would have affected the lessee, he could not allow t.hat gentleman's interest to .stand in the way of his other consti. tuents, who were anxious to get the land for set­tlement. He trusted the honorable Minister for Lands would give some explanation as to why the letter of the honorable member for Warwick had been suppressed, especially as the return was made to an order of that House. He might say that the proceedings of the honorable member for Warwick, in endeavo:ing to get a proclamation cancelled, and to substitute for the lands so proclaimed some lands which had been fenced off by the lessee as worthless, wa~ a most extraordinary one; at any rate, the proclamation was can­celled and the worthless land was thrown oper!. for selection. '\V ell, there was also a telPgram from :Mr. Tully, the Under Secretary for Lands, to J\fr. H ume, to the following effect:-

"Meet Mr. Macalister in Warwick on Monday He wishes to see you re resumed land on Pike­dale."

Ai!Jourmnent. [7 JULY.] AdJournment. 699

Then, there was another telegram from the Colonial Secretary :-

"Have seen Messrs. Hume and Gunn Notice wai..:ed if alteration agreed to Mr. Hume con­sents Approve therefore."

That, he also thought, was a most extra­ordinary production; and he thought from it that the letter from the honoroble member for Warwick was a complaint that the land proposed to be resumed by Mr. Hume would interfere with the lessee of Pikedale, and also a suggestion that some other land outside of Pikedale should be substituted for it. But he hoped that honorable member would, for the future, look after his own constituents, and leave him to look after his. He did not thank the honorable member for the trouble he had taken in having a lot of worthless land substituted for that which was really good land ; and all he could say was that the Government who lent themselves to such a proceeding-to such a malpractice, deserved to be denounced. 'l'he present honorable Minister for Lands was noi in office at the time the correspondence was being carried on, but he' would see that some of it had been suppressed. The telegram of the honorable Colonial Secretary said, "Hume consents;" but he would like to know how, under the circumstances, a commissioner could do other­wise-how he could refuse. At any rate, he hoped that the remainder of the correspon, dence would be furnished.

The SECRETARY FOR PuBLIC LANDS said that the return which had been laid on the table was, so far as he was aware, complete, as he had not heard of any letter being want­ing. It was very evident that the letter which was marked "private" was in reply to another which was also private, RO that it was not likely that he could know anything about it, as it was during the time of his predecessor in office.

:Mr. MoRGAN said he must congratulate the honorable member for Carnarvon on the care he took of his constituents, and on his jealousy of any interference with them; at the same time, he might say that he had had no desire to interfere in any way with the honorable member's care of his constituents, as every honorable member was aware how rigidly the honorable member attended to them. It was perfectly true that he ha,d raised a question with regard to the with­drawal of a proclamation resuming certain lands on the Pikedale Hun, and the honorable member seemed to think that there was some­thing behind the scenes in connection with it; but he could assure the honorable member that, when he saw that proclamation, he had been as much astonished as the honorable member himself. He had taken the trouble to make some inquiries at the Lands Depart­lllent on the subject, and he found that the then :'>1inister for Lands was absent through illness ; be had then asked for the Under ~ecretary, who was also away, and afterwards

he asked the officer next to that gentleman to give him the information. From what he was told, it appeared that the officer who issued the proclamation had done it in such a way as to make it perfectly illegal; and the Under ~ecretary having pointed that out to ~he :Minister for Lands, who was then recovermg from his illness, it was seen that it was informal, and that the only way to overcome the difficulty would be to withdraw the pro­clamation altogether. With regard to the land, he might say that it was represented to him that, as originally surveyed for re, sumption, it would nec£\ssitate the loss to the lessee of Pikedale Run of his washpool; and he did not think any honorable member would willingly injure a lessee, if any arrange­ment could be made to prevent that injury. Well, upon that representation, he wrote to the then Minister for Lands, and pointed out what a loss there would be to the lessee. That letter was a private letter. and only the reply to it appeared in the correspondence which had been laid on the table of that House. He pointed out in his letter that, if the next portion of Pikedale was taken-that nearest to the tin mines-although the land was not quite so good in all parts, it would be just as much conducive to settlement. He 'knew that a portion of that land was rocky, especially that nearest to Vvarwick ; but still there was a great deal of very good land, in proof of which he might mention that 1,200 acres of it had been already applied for, and was purchased for settlement. As ~o the missing letter, he wrote it; that, he drd not deny, and he was quite prepared to have it published if it could be discovered. He was certain that the honorable member for Carnarvon , had only discovered a " mare's nest," and he would again tell him that he was not at all inclined to interfere with the honorable gentleman's constituents.

Mr. MclLwRAITH did not think that the answer which had been given by the honor­able Minister for Lands was by any means an answer to the question of the honorable member for Carnarvon, namely, that the missing letter was a private one ;_ but. he thought the honorable member had grven JUSt cause for complaint in publishing an answer, marked "private," to a letter wh_ich was not published. If honorable members looked ~t the correspondence, they would find that, m the letter of the Under Secretarv for Lands, dated l:lth August, 1874, to Mr. Commis­sioner H ume, he put things very fairly, saying:-

" It is the desire of the Minister that you should be unfettered in your choice."

According to instructions, Mr. Hume had gone up to Stanthorpe, and reported what ~were the proper lands to resume ; but shortly after that, there was a letter written by one of the supporters of the Government, which had not been ,included in the published cor­respondence, in which the writer in all

700 Arljowrnment. [ASSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

probability said :-"This will not do; it will interfere with my friend the squat­ter, you must resume some other land instead." That letter was replied to by the then Minister for Lands, and the proclamation resuming those lands was subsequently with­drawn. Now, he contended that that was an interference with the Land Office that the House had a right to complain of; it was an influence brought upon a Minister, and if such a system was once permitted in this colony, it would lead to a repetition of the same kind of work that had gone on in Vic­toria, and had becm found so injurious there. He thought, also, that the honor·able member for Carnarvon had just cause to complain of the undue interference of the honorable mem­ber for Warwick with his district, and of his using undue influence with a Minister, in an underhand way, by writing a 1)rivate letter, inducing him to change his mind in a matter which seriously affected the public. The honorable member said he had done so to preserve the rights of the squatter, and to prevent his washpool being destroyed ; but if any honorable member of the Opposition had attempted such a thing, the House would at once have said, "Oh ! that is just the sort of thing we might expect from you." Coming, however, from the farmer's friend, who 5aid that the land outside Pikedalc was just as good as that first proclaimed for resump­tion inside of it, it was thought nothing of. The honorable member for Carnarvon, how­ever, told a very different story about the land, namely, that the land on Pikedale Run was very good indeed, and was, in fact, the only land considered by the lessee worth fencing in, and that the farmers around had been anxiously waiting to have it resumed. The friend of the honorable member for vVarwick said, ":Never mind the farmers; it will destroy my washpool if that land is resumed," and so the thing had been arranged. He thought the whole circumstance showed some light on the manner in which the land system was worked by the present Government, or rather how it was going to be worked by them; it showed very much against the honorable member for Warwick, and also against the Government, for allowing themselves to be influenced by one o£ their supporters in such a matter.

Mr. GnooM said that the present was another proof bearing out what he had stated on the previous evening, as to the necessity for the Government to deal, during the present session, with the land question in a comprehensive manner, by introducing a proper Land Bill. Now, he happened to have a very intimate knowledge of the matters connected with the case brought forward by the honorable member for Carnarvon, and he must say, that he thought that honorable member had been perfectly justified in draw­ing attention to it. What were the facts ? Why, that as it was considered essential, as part of their policy, that some lands should

be resumed for the purposes of settlement in the district in question, the Government had requested their late Minister for Lands to visit the district with the view of finding out what land was most suitable for resump­tion as homestead areas. Well, certain localities in that neighborhood were brought under the notice of that gentleman, and it was represented to him by several gentlemen that such lancl should be thrown open for settle­ment; but, after all, on looking over the corres­pondence, it was found that not that land, but land which was perfectly useless had been thrown open. He would draw the attention of the House to one point, namely, that he had himself introduced to the Minister for Land:> a gentleman from Maitland, in New South vVales, who was prepared to take up 7,560 acres oflancl as second-class pastoral, and it was known that four or five others were pre­pared to do the same. But what was the fact? \Vhy that those gentlemen found that the Government had so manipulated the pro­clamation that the land w~s outside of schedule B., and, therefore, the proclamation had to be cancelled, and they returned to New South Wales, and settled there. On reference to the correspondence, honorable members would find a remarkable fact; there was a minute attached to Mr. Gunn's letter, as follows:-

"Proclaim open to selection the fifty square miles surrendered by the lessee of Pikodale, referred to heroin, under the forty-first section o£ ' The Crown Lands Alir'rwtion Act of 1868.'"

That was signed by the honorable the Color1ial . Secretary, but on referring to the forty-first section of the Act of 1868, he (Mr. Groom) found:-

" Previous to any land being open to selection under this Act except as mentioned in the pre· ceding clause notification of its boundaries and the clay from and after which it shall be open shall be gi ,-en at least one month prior thereto by proclamation in the Govermnent Gazette and nearest local newspaper."

Now, he would like to know in the name of common sense how any selector could have known in the present case what land was proclaimed as open to selection; why, in ])Oint of fact, the people of Stanthorpe had been entirely misl-ed by the conduct of the Government. On public grounds, he con­tended that the action of the Government, in reference to that land, had been anything but satisfactory. It had been a matter of general complaint among many successful tin-miners, who wished to become farmers and graziers. If schedule B was defective, and did not extend to that district, it should have been the duty of the Government to have extended it, in order to enable a number of successful tin-miners to take up land as second-class pastoral land. Under the circumstances, he thought that the honorable member for Carnarvon was perfectly justified in draw­ing attention to the matter at the present time. There was some really good land in

Death of [7 JULY.] Mrs. Trueman, qf Tiara. 701

that district. In fact, there were several miles over which he had himself travelled where there was as good agricultural land as could be found anywhere. That land had been repeatedly applied for, and the reply of the Government had been always, that it had not been brought under schedule B. It vras paltry of them to come down with such an excuse, and say that, because of that, good lands should be shut up from gentlemen who wished, not only to take up 7,560 acres each, but also to fence it in and stock it, but vrho, finding they could not get it, had left the colony. In the face of all that, why was it that the Government had not come down with a comprehensive Land Bill to amend schedule B, and to deal with the whole land question? He considered that the honorable member for Carnarvon had good cause of complaint, as he knew that there were a number of men who had been successful on the tin mines who were most anxious to take up land in that district. He might take that opportunity of saying, that whatever might have been said of the falling off of the tin mines, there were a great many persons who had made a great deal of money on them. There was, for instance, one company, the Brisbane 'l'in Mining Company-a Sydney company, he was sorry to say-which had taken out 376 tons of tin, the profits on which had amounted to £13,000. Ho men­tioned that to show that the tin mines were not the failure they vrere supposed by some persons to be ; there were, at the present moment, a large number of persons doing well on them, who were reported to be anxious to settle on the lands, if they could get them. That unfortunate schedule B stood in the way, however, and, therefore, ho thought it was the duty of the Government to come down to that House, and extend that schedule as they were bound to do.

The question was put and carried.

DEATH OF MRS. TRUE:\1:AN, OF TIARO.

The SPEAKER : It is my duty to call the attention of the House to the fact, thaL the motion of the honorable member for the Burnett, passed on the lst of July, relative to the death of Mrs. Trueman, of Tiaro, is informal. It is a question affecting the administration of the law, and the resolution must be, that an address be "Presented to the Governor, asking that the correspondence referred to be laid upon the table of the House.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there would be no objection on the part of the Govern­ment, if the honorable member moved a resolution in the amended form suggested, either to-morrow, or at the present time, with the consent of the House.

Mr. PALMER thought he could point to a case where the necessarv alterations had been made by the Clerk. He remembered that, on the occasion of the honorable member for Aubigny

placing a motion on the paper for the pro­duction of correspondence in reference to nominations to the Legislative Council, which he (Mr. Palmer) noticed at the time was informal, and let it go as a formal motion, to his astonishment he found, on the next day, that it had been put in proper shape by the Clerk, who shovred him his authority for doing so. He did not think the Royal Pre­rogative was touched in the present instance; he could not find the Standing Order refer­ring to such cases, but he knew there was one, as the Clerk had shown it to him.

The SPEAKER : I may mention that I have looked the matter up, and find that there is no such power. This is the practice of the House of Uommons :-

" "\Vhen it is discovered that an address has been ordered for papers which should properly have been presented to the House by order, it is usual, when no answer has been reported, to discharge the order for the address, and to order the papers to be laid before the House. In the same manner, when a return has been ordered for which an address ought to have been moved, the order is discharged, and au address is pre· sented instead."

There is no doubt whatever that it is abso­lutely necessary that, in cases where returns are refused affecting the administration of the law, and a return is moved for by an honor­able member, that the motion must bo in the form of an Address to His Excellency the Governor. The rule on that point is clear:-

" Addresses are presentc'cl for treaties with foreign powers, for despatches to and from the Governors of Colonies, ancl for returns connected with the Army, the Civil Government, and the administration of justice."

This is a motion in connection with th~ administration of justice, as it applies to have copies of certain depositions, taken before a magistrate, to be laid on the table.

M·r. PALMER said he thought the case was precisely similar to the one to which he had alluded, where a notice of motion had been given, which, being informal, was afterwards corrected by the Clerk. The correction had been made by the Clerk in the one case and not in the other.

'l'he SPEAKER : I think the honorable mem­ber is mistaken. There is a great difference between the Clerk altering a notice of motion and a resolution of the House, and I should decidedly object to any alteration being made in the latter.

Mr. IvoRY then moved, witlwut previous notice-

That the order of this House, made on the 1st instant, for production of copies of all corres­pondence relative to the death of Mrs. Trueman, of 'riaro, together with copies of the depositions taken at a magisterial inquiry, held there about lOth December last, upon the subject, be dis­charged.

Question put and passed.

702 Bank Holidays!Jill. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

Mr. IvoRY then further moved-That an Address be presented to the Governor,

praying that His Excellency will be pleased to cause to be laid upon the table of this House, copies of all correopondence relative to the death of Mrs. Trueman, of 'J'iaro, together with copies of the depositions taken at a magisterial inquiry, held there about lOth December last, upon the subject.

Question put and passed.

BANK HOLIDAYS BILL. Mr. STEW~RT moved, (the motion having

been declared "formal") for leave to bring in a Bill to make provision for bank holi­days, and respecting obligations to make payments, and do other acts on such holidays.

Mr. GROOM rose to a point of order, as to whether the Hill should not be introduced in committee.

The SPEAKER : I have given the matter some consideration, and I think not. I find that a similar Bill had been introduced m this form in the House of Commons.

Mr . .l:'ALMER: Is it a private Bill? The SPEAKER : The point of order raised

by the honorable member for Toowoomba was not whether it is a private Bill.

Mr. GROOM : No ; bnt whether it should not originate in Committee of the Whole. House P It was a matter of the payment of money ; it was a Bill affecting trade and commerce, which he thought ought to originate in committee. That, of course, was a matter for the honorable member who introduced it to consider.

Mr. STEWART said he would dispose of the point in a few minutes.

Mr. PaLMER: It is a formal motion; there can be no debate on it.

Mr. STEWART: He might state to the House, that this Bill was a transcript of a similar measure that had been introduced in the House of Commons, the only alteration being in the schedule ; and the measure referred to was introduced on the same motion as he now moved. He had an authority on the point which he could quote if necessary.

Mr. PA.LMER said, as the point was raised, he would put it to the honorable the Speaker, whether it was not a private Bill?

The SPEAKER: vVith regard to the point of order raised by the honorable member for Toowoomba, I cannot say whether it is a money Bill or not; I have not seen it.

Mr. GROOM thought the honorable the Speaker would agree with him, that all Bills affecting trade and commerce should be intro­duced in committee. It was a matter of indifference what was the practice of the House of Commons, when it was provided for by their own Standing Orders.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said, before the Speaker gave his ruling, he would call atten­tion to a passage in "llfay," which said:-

" Bills relating to the Bank of England, joint stock banks, and banking, have originated in com­mittee. Numerous Bills, however, relating to

joint stock banks, h:we been ordered without a previous committee."

The SPEAKER: In reply to the qt:eation put by the honorable member for Toowoomba, I may state the matter seems to be some­what uncertain. In the House of Commons, some Bills, as mentioned by the honorable the Colonial Treasurer, are sometimes private Bills, and sometimes they are considered public Bills. A similar Bill to this was introduced into the House of Commons, not in committee. With respect to the objection taken by the honorable member for Port Curtis, I have to say, that I find a similar Bill was introduced into the House of Commons, and also in each of the other colonies, as a public Bill.

Question put and passed.

DECEASED HUSBAND'S BROTHER MARRIAGE BILL.

Mr. BELL moved (formal motion) for leave to introduce a Bill to legalise marriage with a deceased husband's brother.

Question put. The House divided.

AYES, 9. Messrs. King, Mcilwraith, Bell, MorPhead, De

Satge, Ivory, J. Scott, Douglas, and W. Scott.

NoEs, 19. Messrs. Palmer, Griffith, Hemmant, Fryar,

Low, Morgan, Fraser, Amhurst, Pechey, Groom, MacDonald, W. Graham, Beattie, Kingsford, Stewart, Royds, Dickson, Miles, and C. J. Graham.

Mr. BELL said, he moved the adjournment of the House, for the purpose of alluding to the very important division that had just taken place.

The SPEAKER : I must inform the honor­able member that he cannot do so.

SUPPLY. The CoLONIAL TREASURllR moved-That the Speaker do now leave the chair, and

the House resohe itself into a Committee of the Whole, further to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

Mr. C. J. GRAHAM said he would suggest to the leader of the Government, the desi­rability of proceeding with the Land Bill before going into Supply. The debate last night had been more upon the general land policy of the Government than upon the Bill itself, but, towards the close of the proceed­ings, a division wag taken, and it was decided that it should be gone on with. He thought, in the course of the debate, every point in the Bill was fully discussed; the House was now warm on the subject, ar;d if tlte Government proceeded with the Bill at once, he thought they would find the House go to a division almost without debate. If, on the other hand, it were put off for another week, they would probably have a repetition of all that was said last night, and no progress would be made. He therefore suggested to the Gov-

Supply. [7 JULY.] Supply. 703

ernment the desirability of proceeding with the l:lill, while honorable members had every­thing- said during- the debate fresh in their minds, rather than put it off for another week, when they would feel it necessary to say the same thing over again.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said the Govern­ment could not accede to the proposal of the honorable member for Clermont. The general land policy of the Government was debated on Wednesday last, on the motion that the House should go into Committee of Supply on the Estimates of the Lands Department; and, in consequence of remarks then made, the Government brought in the Land Bill yesterday in order that the way might be eleared for the discussion of the Estimates to­night. He thought the progress they made yesterd,ty was not sufficiently encouraging to justi(y the Government in taking up to­night in the ~a me manner. They had had the whole pri uciplcs of the Bill discussed on the amendment of the honorable member for Clermont, which was never referred to by a single speaker; not a single speaker, apparently, considered it even worth discuss­ing, and the whole of the night, some seven hours, were taken up in discussing the principles of the Bill, which ought to have been discussed on the second reading. Besides, the Government had a duty to perform; it was their duty to see that the salaries of the public servan~s, and the necessary sums for the general requirements of the colony, were voted before the end of the present month; and he thought, by taking i:lupply one night, and Bills and other business on another night, the Government were acting fairly, and he hoped the House would support them. There was no intention whatever to rush Supply on, and he thought the Government were perfectly justified in asking the House for the ::iupply necessary for carrying on the public service.

Mr. BELL said, as far as he could judge, ho thought the Government would very much fiwilitate the passage of the Estimates if they were prepared to carry out that which they offered uo objection to, but which, on the contrary, they appeared to be willing to accede to, and that was, the very reasonable proposi­tion of the honorable member for Port Curtis, to bring a short declaratory measure in refer­ence to tt,e many questions of doubt existing under the Acts of ltl66 and 1868. If that were the intention of the Government, to meet the very urgent necessity which existed, it would be accepted by honorable members on that side, and he hac! no doubt it would have the effect of expediting the passage of the l£stimates through the House. He had no authority for sa.ying this; but that was th:) impression he had formed from the opinions he had.lward expressed by honoraJle members on that side of the House.

Tlw ATTORNEY-GENERAL said there would be no objection on the part of the Go-.ernment to introduce into the Bill clauses of the

character spoken of; and he might inform the honorable member that the matter had been under the consideration of the Cabinet that morning-that declaratory clauses would be drawn, aud honorable ·members would see that such 1!- thing as that was not to be done in five minutes. It was a matter that would take more time at the Printing Office than it would so far as he wus concerned ; but he thought some little time must be permitted to draw the clauses, especially after a.U that had been said about the obscurity of the present law, and the necessity for obviating that obscurity. Great care must be taken not to make any change in the declaratory clauses to the prejudice of present holders of land; any change of the kind must be in their favor, and not to their prejudice. Honorable members would, he was sure, allow some little time for the purpose of having these clauses drawn, printed, and carefully revised.

Mr. PALMER said the speech of the horror­able the Attorney-General, as far as it went, was very good ; but there was nothing what­ever to prevent them from going on with the Bill, and settling the auction clauses, which would clear so much of the way before the Government that it would be really to their benefit to know whether these clauses were to be kept in the Bill or not.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER: That has nothing to do with the salaries of officials.

Mr. PALMER: He did not know that any­body said it had. Did he say so? The honorable the Treasurer seemed to have Estimates on the brain ; and he could assure him that he would pass the Estimates much more quickly if they first settled the Land Bill ; at any rate, so far as the portion to which he had referred was concerned. Last night there was a misunderstanding, he was ready to admit ; the honorable the Treasurer understood one thing, and he understood another. He understood that if they went to the vote on the motion that the Chairman leave the chair, they would then proceed to take the vote on the amendment of the hon­orable member for Clermont.

!J.'he CoLONIAL TREASURER : No. Mr. PALMER: He was willing to take the

honorable the Treasurer's version of it-that it was a misunderstanding; and, in future, he would endeavor, when they came to understandings of that sort, to have them made audibly, so that honorable members would understand really what was the under­standing. Now, as his honorable friend, the member for Clermont, had said, all the reasons given in the course of the debate last night were fresh in the memory of honorable mem­bers, and they were, therefore, prepared to go to division without much more talk as to the auction clauses, which would clear the way before the Government, and materially advance the sa lanes of officers that the hon­OI·able the Colonial Treasurer seemed to think so much about. If that question were settled first, whether the auction clauses were

704 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

kept in or otherwise disposed of, it would in no way interfere with the clauses spoken of by the honorable the Attorney-General. Next week they would be prepared to go on with the declaratory. clauses, and he was sure, if they were clear, they would meet with no opposition from that side of the Rouse; in fact, they should be very glad indeed to lmve the matter fixed in some way. It was no use trying to force on the Estimates until the land question was gone into, and they under­stood what sort of a measure they were to have. He was sure the honorable the Colonial Secretary and the Colonial Trea­surer, with their long experience in the House, knew it was not the slightest use to attempt to force on the Estimates; and with respect to the salaries of officers, or money being voted, there need not be the least alarm. The House would give the honorable the Tr·easurer plenty of money to pay his "'ay, even at the last moment. There was a good deal of time in the meantime to go on with the Estimates ; and, as he said before, he was sure it would materially advance the Estimates if the suggestion were adopted, and they were allowed to go into the land ques­tion and settle the auction principle.

Mr. DoUGLAS said, if he mistook not, the announcement of the honorable the Attorney­General, that the Government were prepared to consider the introduction of declaratory clauses, was received with some favor, and that portion of their proposed land legislation was the one which really, at present, most interested honorable members. That announcement haYing been made, he thought it would come with good grace from honorable gentlemen opposite to submit to the proposal of the Government, that they should go on with Supply to-night. The original arrange­ment;yas, that to-day should be devoted to Supply, and he thougl;J.t the demand was not unreasonable. He thought, even ifhonorable gentlemen opposite had made up their minds not to go into Supply, after the announcement of the honorable the Attorney-General, and their wishes having, to some extent, been met, they should reconsider that decision, and admit that it would be better to go into Supply to-night.

Mr. DE DATGE submitted tlntt the announce­ment of the honorable the Attorney-General was one of the most imvortant that had been made that session. He had stated to the House that the alteration of the Land Bill was now under the consideration of the Government, and the wishes of the House would be complied with. He could not conceive a more important announcement, and he would humbly suggest that tl1ere were so many alterations desired by the House in the Land Act of 1868, as was evident from the discussions which had taken place, that the Government were not yet, by the debates they had had on the subject, at all in possession of the amendments the country required. They were very numerous;

and not only with regard to striking out the auction clauses, but on many other points honorable members held very difrerent views. He did not intend to make a speech on the land question; but he might say, he believed sel'eral honorable members-the honorable members for Bowen, Toowoomba, and Car­narvon-had certain amendments to make with regard to the Act of 1868, and, if the measure before the House was to be con­sidered of such enormous importance to the country, they could not take the desires of the House to have been already expressed on the subject. If the honorable the Attorney­General said such a Bill was under considera­tion; if they wore to have their land laws definitely altered, what would becomf' of the labors of the committee of the other House, which, he believed, had been appointed to consider the whole question? How were the amendments of the Government to tally with those proposed by the other House?

The SPEAKER : The honorable member is out of order in referring to any proceedings connected with the other House.

Mr. DE SATGE : He would not allude to it again. If the matter were gone into, they should have a thoroughly comprehensive measure, and he did not think the House had expressed anything like their desires with reference to the alterations they wished to see effected. If the Govemment intended to make alterations with the debates that had taken lllace ; if they considered they were in a position to make the alterations required by the country in 1he Act of 1868, he believed the measure would be again brought in in an imperfect shape, and would be by no means as comprehensive as the country desired. He did not wish to have his tongue tied on the subject, and he thought they ought to have another evening's debate on this very im­por·tant subject, if these alterations were to be made this session.

'The ATTORNJlY-GENERAL said he wished to correct a misapprehension on the part of the honorable member for :N ormanby. He did not say anything about alterations in the Land Act of 18G8, generally, but that it was intended to draft one or two dauses to declare the meaning of certain parts of that Act, pointed out by honorable members, and in regard to which they expressed a desire that declaratory clauses shoulcl be inserted in the Bill. He did not wish honorable mem­bers to be led away by any misapprehension, and if the honorable member thought he had promised anything of the kind he had referred to, he (the Attorney-General) had

. this explanation to o:fier. Mr. MILES was understood to say, they had

been told now, after it had been forced out of the Government, that it was their intention to prepare two or three clauses defining what was the meaning of the Act of l8G8.

The CoLONIAL 'I'HEASURER : l deny most emphatically that anythiJJg of the kind has ever taken place.

Supply. [7 JULY.] 705

Mr. MrLES: He had not the slightest doubt that if the Estimates were passed, honorable members would very shortly be sent about their business. The passing of the Estimates was the only hold the House had upon the Government with regard to the measures the country required and demanded; and he thought it would be well if they had another night's discussion on the land question, so as to give the honorable the Attorney-General full and satisfactory information as to the nature of the measure required.

Mr. MciLWI!AITH said he had heard no argument brought forward by the Govern­ment why the third order of the clay-the Land Bill-should not be proceeded with, except from the honorable the Colonial Treasurer, who urged that there should be no delay in the passing of Supply ; and that had been completely met by the answer of the honorable the leader of the Opposition, that they were quite prepared to grant whatever might be required. This was, no doubt, the proper time for the redress of grievances; the motion to go into Committee of Supply was the only chance honorable members had in that res1)ect, and there was one grievance which he considered rather serious, and to which he desired to call attention, and it was suggested by the answer received from another place that afternoon. He found, in reading the report ofthe debate last night, it was stated, that while the honorable mem· ber for Port Curtis was speaking, a member of the Govemment interjeded, '" You packed the House." YVho that member of the Government was --

The CoLONUL TREASURER: I said so. Mr. MciLwRAlTH: He thought the honor­

ahle the Colonial Treasurer at present repre­sented the Government, and he said he said so. While the honorable the leader of the Opposition was speaking, the acting leader of the Government interjected that remark across the House ; it was heard, he believed, by all honorable members, and he (Mr. Meilwraith) heard him say so twice. Now, from the way in which the Payment of Members Bill was discussed in that House, he thought it gave them reason to hope it would ultimately become law, and from the treatment it received in another place, he also thought it very likely; but if the other Chamber was to he deliberately insulted lJV the leader of the Government in that Hous~, without notice being taken of it, he thought they would lower themselves in the estimation of every thinking man in the colony. Taking that remark in connection with that measure, he did not think there could be anything done worse-that no greatpr impediment could have been thrown in the way of the action the Government had taken. They knew perfectly well that remarks of that kind, showing such an utter contempt for another place, must have an effect there, and from information he had heard, he believed they had had that effect.

He threw all the responsiblity, with regard to that useful measure, which they professed to have always had particularly at heart, upon the Government; and, in fact, there was no question connected with a liberal policy that they had shown any anxiety to get through the House at the present time. But there was another view of the matter, and he should confine himself to the remark he had referred to ; and he was the more inclined to call attention to it, from the cool manner in which the honorable member representing the Government took it. He seemed to think he~was quite right, and, with his hat on, he looked quite cocky over it; but he (Mr. M ell wraith) said that honorable member had abused the Standing Orders. If he turned to the Standing Orders he would find-

" No member shall use offensive words against either House of Parliament; nor against any Statute, unless for the purpose of moving its repeal." Now, his own opmwn was, that the honor­able the leader of the Government, as atten­tion had been called to the matter, if he were in his proper thinking mood, and if he studied the dignity of the position he at present occupied, he would at once get up and apologise to the House, and retract the state­ment; but instead of that, he looked as if he felt proud of having violated the rules of the House, which were framed for the guidance of honorable members. Such expressions were not only against the Standing Orders, hut also against the prac­tice of the Imperial Parliament, and there was no rule to which members of both Chambers in the Imperial Parliament gave greater heed. On referring to the rules of debate, as in "May" (p. 327), he found it laid down, that no member should use

"Offensive and insulting words against the character or proceedings of either House." 'l'hat was very plainly laid down; and, again, it was laid down (p. 333) :-

"It is obviously unbecoming to permit offen· sive expressions against the character and conduct of Parliament to be nsed without rebuke ; for they are not only a contempt of that high Court, but are calculated to degrade the Legislature in the estimation of the people. If directed against the other House, and passed over without censure, thev would appear to implicate one House in dis­cou~tesy to the other ; if against the House in which the words ttrc spoken, it would be impos· sible to overlook the disrespect of one of its own members.'' Now, this was a case in which that was particularly applicable. The honorable the Treasurer admitted that he had used an expression, which was the grossest dis­courtesy to the other Hou;,e, he (Mr. l'IIcilwraith) had ever heard since he had been a member of the House. He would read from another authority, "Cushing's Law and Practice of Legislative Assemblies:"-

" All allusions and expressions, concerning the other House, its members, or proceedings, or con·

706 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

cerning the Sovereign m· his acts, which, if used with reference to the House, of which the person speaking is a member, would be disorderly, are unquestionably offences against the House in which they are uttered, whether spoken with or without reference to any particular act or pro­ceeding. M:r. O'Connell's ironical description of Lord Brongham, for which he was called to order by Mr. Speaker Abercrombie, on the ground of 'the very great inconvenience which must arise from having a war carried on between the two Houses-in disguise it was true, but still very intelligibly,' is an instance of a personal attack upon a member of the other House." .And again:-

" If there is any breach of the rules of decency and gentlemanly decorum, if public reprehension and accusation degenerate into private obloquy and personal reflections, it is the duty first of the Speaker, and if he nezlects that duty, then of the House itself, to interfere immediately, and not to permit expressions to go unnoticed or uncensured, which may give a ground of complaint to the other House of Parliament, and thereby intro­duce proceedings and mutual accusations between the two Houses, which can never be terminated without difficulty and disorder." All the cases he had mentioned bore par_ticu­larly on the point at issue in the presPnt instance. They heard an expression, of a most disorderly character, used by the leader of the Government, and acknowledged by him, and they bad seen the direct influence of that upon the legislation of the colony. He thought the House should mark, in some way, its disapproval of any such disrespect being shown to another place. In the heat of debate, some expressions of that kind might escape an honorable member, and he thought, last night, it very likely occurred in that way; but, when he found the honorable the Treasurer actually glorymg in ltavmg ignored the rules aml practice of the House, he could not help thinking that that House would be wanting in duty to the other Chamber, and to itself, if it did not take some steps to see that their proceedings, in the future, were carried on in a more orderly way.

'l'he CoLONIAL TREASURER: Table a motion. JYir. MciLWRAITH: In order to hear an

expression of opinion from the honorable the leader of the Government, who had already spoken on the main question, he begged to move, as an amendment-

That the Question be amended by the omission of all the words following the word "'l'hat," with a view to the insertion, in their place, of the words " Orders of the Day Nos. l and 2, be postponed, until Order No. 3 has been disposed of.''

The CoLONIAL TREASURER said the horror­able member for MaranoH, bad quoted authorities on Parliamentary law and praetiee, but it seemed to him he hnd entirely fmled to give them any application to himself (the Colonial Treasurer). \V!Jat were tlte circum­stances? The houorable member for Port Curtis had grossly violated the very St,mding

Order to which the honorable member had referred, and which he would read to the House:-

" No member shall use offensive words ag:>inst either House of Parliament; nor against any Ste~tute, unless for the purpose of moving its repeal." Now, although, perhaps, the honorable mem­ber might defend himself by saying it was not a Statute--

HoNORABLE MEMBERS on the Opposition benches : Hear, hear.

The CoLoNIAL TREASURER : He meant to say that honorable member lntd been guilty of the grossest disrespect to the House, in characterising a Bill which had passed through that House, as "a swindle." The honorable member for Maranoa wished to make the House believe, that when he (the Colonial Treasurer), in reply to the remarks of the honorable member for Port Cnrtis, in terj Acted, "Y on packed the House,"- referring to another Chamber-brought himself within the scope of that Standing Order. Now, he would like to ]mow what offensive or insulting expression was applied to the other Chamber by a statement to the effect that the honor­able member for Port Curtis, before his ejec­tion from office, packed that Ch:tmber? He si m ply stated an historical fact.

HoNORABLE MEMBEllS on the Opposition benches : No, no.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER : By the state­ment of an historical faet--

The SPEAKER: I think the honorable mem­ber is out of order. He is not justified in stating the other Chamber is packed. I do trust honorable members will continue the debate in an orderly manner. 'l'he Standing Order is very clear, that no offensive remarks should be made with referenee to another place.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER: Which Stand­ing Order?

The SPEAKER: The 89th. Mr. G11ooM said, on a previous occasion,

grossly insulting lang_uage was used to mem­bers of that House m another place ; they were termed a lot of adventurers. He thought they should not permit such language as that to be used in another place.

The CoLONIAL TREASURER maintained that he '11 as perfectly right in saying the horror­able member for Port Cm·tis packed the other House; and he maintained, also, that that statement did not convey any o:fi'ensiYe or insulting word against any member of the other Chamber. He had not heard anv honorable member say a word against any one of the gentlemen appointed by the honor­able member for Port Um·tis; and "packing," used in the sense that he used it, was, that the honorable member took advantage of his position, to put into another place a large number of his supportl-rs-an Ull\\-arrantably large number of gentlemen, who were always found supporting his views, on the eve of his ejection from office.

Supply. [7 JuLY.] Supply. 707

Mr. DE S.A.TGE thought the expression "ejection from office," was decidedly out of order.

The CoLoNIAL TREASURER : He submitted that it was not; but he had no objection to withdraw it, and to substitute "retirement." What he maintained was that, when he referred to the packing of the other Chamber, he did not use any offensive or insulting words to any member of that Chamber, or to the Chamber itself; because, the fact that it was packed by the honorable member for Port Curtis, did not in any way derogate from its position, or from its respEJct, or anything of the kind. -He therefore sub­mitted that he had not ommded against the 89th Standing Order in any way. It was a matter of history that another place had been packed by the honorable member for Port Curtis, and everybody knew it ; it had been referred to in the House before, and any honorable member was fully entitled to refer to any of these historical facts. He main­tained, that in calling attention to the fact, he in no way infringed the 89th Standing Order; and that none of the extracts read to the House by the honorable member for Maranoa were in the slightest degree applicable to himself.

Mr. PALMER said the honorable the Colo­nial Treasurer had, after the usual manner and custom of the Ministry, endeavored to shift the onus from himself to somebody else, and he began with him (Mr. l'almer). He said he had violated a rule of the House by alluding to a Statute, and immediately afterwards he admitted it was not a Statute ; so that he (Mr. Palmer) was afraid his argument was worth very little on that subject. That honorable member had also endeavored to screen himself from having made an offensive allusion to another place, by asserting that he meant the insult for him (Mr. Palmer). He admitted, as he (Mr. Palmer) believedevery person in the colony admitted-at least he had never heard it con­tradicted-that to the individuals themselves who were appointed to the other House on his recommendation, he had no objec~ion to take, further than they were his (Mr. .l:'almer's) supporters. Now, he had before stated in that House, that as to the political views of aJ;ly of the gentlemen who, on the recommendation of the Ministry of which he was the head, were appointed to seats in the other House, he never asked the question, and never had the slightest information. And he repeated it again; they were there to answer for themselves; and he never asked them a single question, except whether they would lake their seats in the other House if His Excellency, on his recommendation, was pleased to appoint them. :E'nrthcr than that, nothiug whatever passPd between him and the several honorable members who, at one time or another, were appointed to seats in the other House. The honorable the Colonial Treasurer informed them that it was an

historical fact. He (Mr. Palmer) said it was an historical lie. The position in whwh the late Government was, at the time of the a])pointment of those members to the Upper House, perfectly justified him in any action he took in endeavoring to increase the number of members in that Chamber to correspond with what he always kept there in respect to thE!' Assembly, which was about two-thirds. He was perfectly justified in making the recommendations he did, and had he not done so, .he knew very well what would have been said. They would say, when they came into office, they found a lot of vacancies ; they would say, in the first place, he had neglected his plain duty; and, in the next, that he was a fool. But he did not neglect his duty ; and he did not mean any one to call him a fool for the action he took in the matter. As for saying that on the eve of his ejection from office he made the recommendation, he said it was not true. lie had no more reason to believe, when those appointments were made, that the Ministry of which he was the head would leave office within a few months than the present Ministry had of leaving office within a few days-in fact, not half so much reason. He never brought in a Land Bill on which no three members of the Ministry could give the same opinion. He never brought forward a wretched abortion of a Land Bill, two-thirdii of which, they were told by the Minister for Lands last night, he did not care about; that it was a matter of no account. He held, and he wished he had the voice to maintain it to­night, that in the reeommendation he made to His Excellency for appointments to the other House, he was perfectly justified. Had he been on the eve of retirement, knowing that a majority of the House would be against him, some fault-some very considerable fault -might have been found; but, he said, at the time those appointments were made, the Government had talren the matter into con­sideration, and his honorable colleagues knew they were not made merely on his recommendation. The recommendation was made through the Premier-of course, he did not know how appointments of that kind were made by the present Government; but he considered that in every instance the whole Ministry was responsible as much as himself, although he was quite preparad to take the whole responsibility on his own shoulders; and he said they were perfectly justified in making those recommendati9ns, and he believed they had resulted in immense benefit to the colony. As for putting in gentlemen of his own opinion, as he had airead y said, he did not know the opinions of any one individual whom he nominated to the Upper House. In fact, so far from knowing their opinions, he might meution one instance, in which a gentleman, who was appointed on his recommendation, was the very first to bring in what amounted to a vote of censure in another place, and it was

~08 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

carried. That was in reference to his action as chairman of the School Board ; and so much for knowing the opinions of those gentlemen ! That was a matter of history ; that was done, and very properly done. He never had any intention of packing the other House; the idea was absurd! He maintained that they were perfectly justified in making those appointments at that tin'le ; and they were a great deal more justified in believing they were going to remain in office a few months, than the present Ministry were, who could not bring in a Land Bill, the great want of the colony, to suit the wishes of even their own supporters. He believed, after every calculation of the chances that he could possibly make, that on the meeting of the House he would have a fair majority for carrying on the bu8iness of the country; and, he did not suppose the honorable the Colo­nial Treasurer thought he was omniscient any more than himself. He could not tell exactly how members would vote, and as for the northern members joining a Brisbane Government, such a thing was never before heard of in the annals of the colony, unless,per­haps, by honorable members on the other side, who had private reasons for knowing it would take place. He had no reasons for supposing so. The honorable the Colonial Treasurer had entirely forgotten to meet the two assertions he made last night, both of which, he (JVlr. Palmer) maintained, were calculated to bring the other Chamber into contempt. He said in the first place, that his (Mr. Palmer's) re­marks with reference to this wretched Statute as he called it-sometimes it was a Statute, and sometimes it was not-were made in order to influence members of the other House, and to show them how to deal with the Bill. If that was not a direct insult to the members of the other House, he did not know what was; and he would leave it to the honorable the Speaker to decide whether it tended to that good feeling which should exist between the two Houses? The horror­able gentleman made the assertion that he (Mr. Palmer) was dictating to the other House what they should do with regard to a question now before them; and if that was good taste-if that was not offensive, he did not know what waF. He might, before going any further, refer to an assertion made by the honorable member for Toowoomba-which he understood to be a sort of justification of what had been said by an honorable member in that House-that a certain honorable mem­ber in another place had, that evening, characterised the members of that House as a set of adventurers--

Mr. GRooM said that he did not mean that that had been said that evening, but in the course of a former debate.

Mr. PaLMER said he had spoken to several honorablc members of the other Chamber, and had ascertained from them that nothing of the sort had been said. He did not believe it was his place to guard the honor of the

other House, nor did he believe that they would thank him for doing so, as they had always shown that they were quite capable of answering for themselves. He thought, however, that the observations which had been made about the honorable members of the other Chamber were not fair, as he believed they were guided quite as much by conscientious scruples and a desire to do what was right, as any honorable member of that House. He thought that, during the.present session, they had proved the truth of that assertion, and had shown a desire to do what they considered was for the benefit of the country, by their action in regard to the resolutions for the resumptions of runs, which had been sent up to them from the Assembly. "When the honorable Attorney-General had been asked what the present Government had done during the present session, he pointed to those land resumptions; but he (Mr. Palmer) ventured to say that those resumptions could not have been made if the other House had not given way; in fact, they had allowed those resumptions even before they were, in his opinion, required. He thought that that was a sufficient answer to the charge of obstructiveness which had been made against the other Chamber. That they had not passed all the little legal Bills of the honorable the Attorney-General was, perhaps, a misfortune. With regard to the Payment of Members Bill-whichreally appeared to be the only measure that the Government had shown an interest in passing-although he thought tLat that Bill, having been passed several times by that House, the honorable gentlemen in another place might have given way to popular opinion, and although he regretted that they had not clone so, still the.Y were not to blame for the action they had taken. It was a question which had been debated in the neigh boring colonies of New South Wales and Victoria ; and he found that, when it was passed by the Upper House in the latter colony, it was only by a majority of one vote. In New South Wales, the feeling was very strong against the principle of payment of members; and, therefore, looking at those facts, it should not be a matter of astonishment that the horror­able gentlemen in the Legislative Council here should have expressed their opinions in the way they had done. He could not agree with the honorable member for J\faranoa, that even the insult offered by the honorable the Colonial Treasurer, on the previous evening, had had any effect upon their actions-he did not believe it affected them at all. He gave them credit for adopting a course which they considered best for the colony, and which certainly was in accordance with a strong feeling entertained on the sub­ject out of doors. He should return to the charge which had been made against himself, of having packed the other Chamber with gentlemen who were likely to take the same views with himself on public matters. Now,

Supply. [7 JuLY.] Supply. 7o()

his views on public matters were pretty well known, and, so far as regarded the statement which had been made that he was a squatting partisan, he believed that all his actions had entirely disproved such an assertion. He had never been what was called a strong squatting partisan; but he was a squatter, and he believed in dopasturing his sheep and cattle on lands which were not required for other purposes. As to the charge of "packing" -as that word had been used by the honor­able the Colonial Trea~urer, he was obliged to use it-he found that whilst he was in office, he had the honor of nominating for seats in the Upper tf ouse, no less 'than twelve gentlemen. Out of that number five were utterly unconnected with squatting pursuits in any way. He found that the Council consisted of twenty-eight members, of which number twelve were unconnected with squatting in any way what­ever ; so that he thought he kept up a fair proportion of those interested in ·squatting and those who were not, and that the argu­ment so far was in his favor. In fact, he laid no stress upon that at all, for if anybody said that because a man was interested in squatting he should not be nominated to the Upper House, all he could say was, that he utterly disagreed with him, as the squatters of this colony had shown themselves just as able to eoncluct the business of the country, and to take quite as much advanced views generally, as the so-called liberals. He regretted very much that the honorable Colonial Treasurer was not in his seat, so that the honorable member might withdraw his remarks of the previous evening, and apologise for having made them, as that honorable member had attacked the members of the other House by accusing him (Mr. Palmer) of having packed it, and of having tried to influence them with regard to the Western Railway Bill. He would impress upon honorable members the propriety of refraining from comment on the praceedings in another place ; it was really out of place, and it was unusual to make allusion to the act.ions of the other House. It was very right that they should be able to do what they cons1derecl proper in that House without caring one tittle what action might be taken in anothe1· place. He considered that that had nothing whatever to do with them, and he thought that the statement made by an honor­able Minister, that the Government could not bring in a comprehensive Land Bill because they knew it would not be passed elsewhere, had nothing to do with them. He had been very much grieved to find, that evening, how very easy it was to attack people who were not in that House to defend themselves, but he had been still more grieved to find that not one member of the Government got up to defend an absent colleague who was a member of that House ; he had been grieved to hear the attacks which had been made upon Mr. Stephens, and to find that not one attempt had been made by his late colleagues

to defend him. He certainly thought they would have appeared to more advantage if, instead of attacking absentees, they had defended one of those absentees who had been their own colleague. ·

Mr. GnooM said that, during the previous session, he had taken an opportunity of expressing his opinion with reference to the action of the honorable member for Port Cnrtis in relation to the Upper House, and he believed he was justified in stating that, even at the present moment, there was in existence a despatch from the Secretary of State for the Colonies, endorsing the views he had then uttered on the floor of that House, that the conduct of the honorable member was not justifiable, and was not endorsed by Her Majesty's Government. He believed .that he was correct in makmg that statement, and he considered that such a document ought to be laid on the table of the House. vVhen the honorable mem­ber for Port Curtis spoke of what had been said in that House about the other Chamber, and said that honorable members should not refer to the conduct of horror­able gentlemen in the other Chamber, he (Mr. Groom) thought that the same remark should apply to them, for they had not only insulted members of that House by the remarks they had made in their own place, but also out of doors. It had been said by one honorable gentleman, that for one horror­able member who would be a credit to that Assembly there were three who would not be any credit to the cCJlony. Why, there was one honorable member in the Upper House at the present time who had been rejected by various constituencies, and yet he had been nominated to it ; yet, in the face of that, the members of the other Chamber had designated honorable members of the Assembly," a class of political adventurers." He ventured to say, that in no part of the British dominions was there an Upper House where there were more political adventurers--

The SPEAKER : The honorable member is out of order; I will read a ruling that has been laid clown for the government of the Speaker, and of the House of Commons, on that subject, by Mr. Hatsell :-

" If there is any breach of the rules of decency and gentlemanly decorum ; if public reprehension and. accusation degenerate into private obloquy and personal reflection, it is the duty first of the Speaker, and, if he neglects that duty, then of the House itself, to interfere immediately, and not to permit expressions to go unnoticed or uncensured, which may give a ground of complaint to the other House of Parliament, and thereby introduce proceedings of mutual accusations between the two Houses, which can never be terminated with· out difficulty and disorder.''

I do trust that honorable members on both sides will assist me in keepin&( up the character of this House.

Mr. GnooM said there was no one who more respected the honorable the Speaker's

710 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

opinion and the authority just quoted by the honorable gentleman, or who liad a greater desire to observe the rules nf that House than l1e had; but he thought it was to be very much regretted that the ordinary rules of debate were not observed in another place, as there were most insulting remarks made in that place about honorable members of that House. He would not, however, in defer­ence to the ruling of the honorable the Speaker, continue his remarks on that sub­jm.·t. The motion of the honorable member for Maranoa was, to all intents and purposes, a direct vote of want of confidence in the GoYernment, for l1e believed it was a rule of that House that the Government should decide in what order they would proceed with their business. If the OppositiQn earried a motion to the effect that the GoYernment should not go on with their business as they wished to do, it was tanta­mount to a vote of want of confidence. Now, there were reasons why it would be unde­sirable to have a change of Government at the present time, and one of those reasons V< hi eh would induce him to vote against the amendment of the honorable member for the 1\Jaranoa was the absence of the honorable member at the head of the GoYernment. On that ground he should oppose it, however much he might have appoved of it under other circumstances.

Mr. C. J. GRAHAM ,8aid, in reference to the amendment of the honorahle member for jl,;[aranoa, that that honorable member had slated, at the time of moving it, that his object was to allow the honorable Colonial Treasurer an opportunity of explaining some remarks he l1ad made on the previous evening about the honorable mt'mber for Port Curtis ·having packed another place, and not to move it in the way of a vote of want of confidence. It vras not usual to move a vote of want c>f confidence in such a manner, hut to give notice of it ; but the only object of tbe amendment, as he took it, was to give honorablc members an opportunity of ex­pressing an opinion upon the remarks of the honorable Colonial Treasurer on the previous evening, namely, that the late Government had packed the Upper House. Honorable members had heard the explanation of the honorable 'l'reasurer­that the word "packed" was not an offen­sive word, and that in using it, he had no in­tention of insulting the other Chamber. There was an old expression, "What's in a name?" and thPy might say," What's in a word?'' But an insulting meaning of a word depended, ac­cording to his idea, more in the way in which it was used than the meaning given to it in the dictionary. For instance, if a person said that a number of things were packed in a case, there would be nothing insulting in that, and if the honorable Treasurer had meant that a number of members had gone into the other House the same as goods into a box, there would be nothing insulting in

it; but the meaning of packing an Assembly meant sending a number of members to it with foregone conclusions on certain subjects. They often heard of a packed jury-that was, a jury composed of men who had determined to give a verdict in a certain way, no matter what the evidence might be. Again, they had heard of a packed bench-although they might never hear of such a thing again-and that meant that there were judges packed for the purpose of arriving at a foregone conclu­sion. He considered in the present instance that the word was more insulting to that House than it was to the other Chamber. It had been stated by one honorable member that some honorable members in anotl1er place had insulted that House by terming some of its members political adventurers. He was not sure that that had been said; but supposing it had been said that they were adventurers, or supposing some other opprobrious epithet had been applied to them, he did not think they need mind about it, or about what any­body might say of them, either in the other Chamber or in the public street ; such remarks would simply hurt the other Chamber, and not that House, for it would demean those be­longing to the other Chamber who made them. And so with regard to the remark of the hon­orable the Treasurer, that the other House was packed with members capable of entertaining foregone conclusions-not acting in accordance with their honor, but according to the dictates of the honorable member by whom they were nominated-the insult would not hurt those gentlemen, but it had a most disgraceful effect upon that House, if the members of it sat still and listened to gratuitous insults offered to the other branch of the Legislature, or indeed. to any persons outside of that House. If they wished to protect their honor, they would do more by taking care of what was said in their own House, than by noticing anything that was said of them out of doors.

HoNORABLE MEMBERS: Hear, hear. 'l'he ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he did

not rise for the purpose of prolonging the debate, but with. the ·view of correcting some misapprehension which he believed had arisen in the minds of honorable members, as regarded the circumstances attending the increase of members of the other Chamber, which had been alluded to so many times that evening. The honorable member for Port Curtis had stated on a former occasion, that when the number of members in that House had been increased, he had increased the number in the other Chamber to two-thirds, which was the proper proportion the two Houses should bear to each other. The honorable gentleman had also said something else, which, taken together with 11hat had been stated that evening, led to the conclusion that that increase was one which had been justified by a higher power. Now, he found, on referring to the debate on a motion of the honorable member for Toowoomba last year, on the same subject,

Supply. [7 JuLY j Suppl!J. 711

that the honorable member for Port Curtis was reported to have said-

" He stated that his object in making the additions was a very simple one, namely, that the Assembly having increased the number of its members from thirty-two to forty-two, he con­sidered that a proportionate increase should be made in the Upper Hous_; and if the honorable member who moved the motion knew anything of the enormous correspondence which had taken place on the subject, he would have known that it had been laid clown that the Upper House should consist of two-thirds of the number of the Assembly.

'. 'l'he SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : \:Vho s11icl SO?

" ]Hr. P ALJIIIm: The honorablc member has the corri?spon de nee ; he can find it out.

"The SECRETARY l!'OR PUBI,rc LANDS : 'rVho by?

"Mr. PAL~IER: By a despatch from the Home Government, which anybody can discover for himself to-morrow.

"The SEORE'l'AllY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do not think it exists.

"1\Ir. PALJ\IER: I do not care what the honorable member thinks-Iha.-e not the least respect for what he thinks; I do not care one fraction whether he bclie.-es it exists or not, but I say that it does.

"The SECRETARY FOH PuBLIC LA~DS : I clo not think so.

"The SPEAKEr<: The honorable member is not in order.

"The SEOHE'l'ARY FOH PuBLIC WoRKS: Hear, hear.

"Mr. PAT.~IER: He would repeat that such a correspondence did exiot, and had clone so for years, and was to the eifect that the Upper House should consist of . two-t.hircls of the number of members in the Assembly.

"'The SECHETARY FOR Prm,rc LANDS: I deny it.

" Mr. Mor<EITEAD : It is sure to be true if he denies it.

He believed that all the dPspatches had been laid on the table of the House, and there was not a single word in one of them laying down such a proposition. 'l'he only thing bearing upon it at all in all the correspondence laid on the table of the House was a letter from the honorable member himself to the l,.te Gover­nor, the Marquis of Norman by, dated 19th De­cember.1tl73. That letter was laid on the table of the House last session, in reply to an address on a motion of the honorable member for Aubigny, on the 8th May, 1874. In that letter, he found the minute made by the Marquis of N ormanby. The letter was dated from the Colonial Secretary's office, 19th December, 1873, or not many weeks before the retirement from office of the honorable member for Port Ourtis :-

"I do myself the honor to bring under your Lordship's notice my former letter of 18th Octo­ber 1871, on the subject of the nnmber of the members of the Legislati.-e Council, to which, for the reasons therein assigned, I submitted a sug­gestion for your Lordship's approval, that an

addition shonld be made equal to the number of members usually absent, when Parliament was sitting, upon leave or from other canse&. As your Lordship is aware, there is no liwit under the Constitution Act to the number of the mem­bers, which, for reasons at that time considered sufficient, was originally fixed by the Government of the day at twentv-one. Your Lordship is also aware that this nun'Iber was exceeded in the case of the late Mr. Eliott's appointment, which formed the mbject of a special despatch to His Excellency the late Governor Blackall, in which the Secretary of State for the Colonies expressed his regret that departure had been made from the established practice on that occasion. It must, however, be borne in mind that the Legielative Assembly at that time consisted only of thirty-two members ; and a number in the Legislati.-e CounCJl that was quite sufficient then, is vory inadequate in propor­tion to an Assembly, the members of \vhieh, under the Electoral Districts Act, have been increased to forty-two. Under these circumstances I ven­tme to suggest to your Lordship the expediency of the members of the Legislative Council being increased to twenty-eight-being a number equal to two-thirds of the members of the Legislative Assembly-in order that the same proportion in the relative numbers of both branches of the Lcgi"lature may be observed as formerly."

That was the only fragment to be found in all the correspondence up to that date, which could be construed to bear out the assertion which was made by the honorable member for l'ort Curtis last session; and if that could be called a despatch from the Secretary of Stat0 for the Colonies, he thought the sooner thPy left off giving things names the better. He remembered that honorable members were, at the time, very anxious to see that despatch, which harl been stated by the honorable member for l'ort. Curtis to have been received ; hut, although search had been made everywhere, it had not been found. He would pG•int out, that as the letter which he had just read was only written three weeks before the retirement from office of the honor­ahle member for Port Curt.is, it was quite impossible that a reply could have been received by the Marquis of :N ormanby from the Secretary of State ior the Colonies within that time, approving of the proposition con­tained in that letter.

The question was put, that the words pro­posed to be omitted stand part of the question, and agreed to.

The question was then put and passed, and the House went into committee.

On the resumption of the House, the Chairr1an of Committees made no report.

Mr. P A.LMER asked the honora ble Colonial Treasurer what course he intended to pur­sue?

The CoLONIAl, TREASURER stated that the motion for going into Committee of Supply would be restored to the paper on the first Government day.