Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

MONDAY, 7 DECEMBER 1908

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Question. [7 DECE~lJJEll.~ Suppl,if. 403

MoxnAY, 7 DECDIJJEH, 1!10~.

The 8PEAKER (Hon .. John Leahy, Bulloo) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

PETIT !OK. PorrT AurA RAILWAY.

~Ir. BREN"NAX (Rocklw.mpton North) pre­sented a petition fr llll 2,?;13 r~J:~irlents of RnckM han1pton, North H. ·ckhmup!·.niJ, Hil 1 tbe Living~ stoue and Fitzr(\y shire.-, agrtin"t the construction of the Port Almct l{ailwcty, rtnd moved tlutt the petition be read.

QueRtion put and pn.-;;sed.

l\Ir. Rl1Ei'\N.\X mo,·ed th.t the petition be received.

l\It·. ::\IAXN (('airns) moved that the petition be printfd.

The SPEAKER: There is a motion alrearly before the HrmRe, and the hon. member cannot introduce a freoh motion at this stage. I may n1enr.ion tl1at in any case, under the tltnnding Order", the printing of petitions bas to go before the _printing Omnrnittee.

Q1:cstion-- That the petition be received-put .D.lli1 lhU3SI?Cl.

PERSONAl" E:XPLANATIOX.

CoRRECTTO~ IX "HANHARD."

l\lr KEOGH (Rose1cood): I wish to make a per...-onal explana.tion. I noticH in Hansard of ~ud. Decernber, No. 5, pa.ge i~31, when the Renior mmuber for Townsville was speaking, l\Ir. H~trd­acre, the hrm. member for J,eichhardt, inter­jected, and the senior mAmber for Townsville said-

I did not come out herr· 1.t Govcrnm~nt expense, nor at my own expense. )Iy father brought me ant here. and I lmd no choice.

And I am reported to have interjected-You did very well out of corner allottn(mts.

I never insinuated th1s in the slightest in rer:ctrcl to the hon. member. I would be a thoroug-h ingmte if I did so. \Vhat I stated on that ocCa,~ion I an1 prepared to state now. I Raid, "I wi:::1h my father or some other person belonging td n1e had arrived in'this State Rorne years ag-o. Then it would be possible th.tt I myself would have a corner allotment." (Laughter.) Those 2,re the remarks I made, and I hope the hon. member foe Townsville will believe me when I sav I never made use of such statement. (HeM, he~ar !)

QUESTIOX.

DR. ::\1.'\.XWELT/S REPOI\T,

~[r. RYLAND (G.mnpie), without notice asked the Secretary fur Agriculture if he could inform the House when Dr. 1\Jctxwell's report on central sugar-miils would be laid on the tctble of the House.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRIUULTURE: The C)Ue,,tion of Dr. ::\faxwell's report on the 'vorking of the central sugar~rnills is not in my department. I have no doubt that Dr. l\Ictxwell is preparing- hb report, and that it will be ready very shortly.

l\Ir. RYLAND : I beg to ask the Treasurer when the report of Dr. l\Iaxwell on the central sugar-mills will be ready.

The TREASURER (Hon. A. G. C. Haw· thorn, Eno(J(fe1·a): I hope to lay it on the table to-morrow.

Sl'PPLY.

HESDIPTION OF CmnuTTE~:--llEB.HE ON .FT~A~O!AL 1:\TATE;IlEJ\1'.

(iff1'. TV. J. R, 11Iau[Jhan in the clwir.)

Question stated-That there be granted to His Majesty, for the service of the year 1907-8, a sum not exceeding £300. to defray the salary of the aide-do-camp to His Jl;xcellency the Governor.

1\Ir. BOWC.LU\ (Fm'it1'de T"alle,'): Before I deal with tlw Finaueiat l-., aLt IJJt Ht 1 desire tu 111ake reference rod, paragHtpiJ that appeared in this murning\; Cuurier l\~laLiug- tu vulitical oL~ strnction by hon. Illenthers.

An HoxonlABT.E ::\IE1fBEH: A !leg d obstruc· tion.

:\Ir. BO\Y ,\L\I\: The Premier, in an inter­viel,·, ~rated tlwt thi::-. ~idt' ~~f tl1t:~ 1-!uu::-l~ had been gniJty uf wasting tiaw, and oue paragraph in thiH rporning's paper, in reference to tl1e \Vorkers' Dwellings Bill, stated-

In::;teall of that, the whole dav had lJecn wa~tecL an cl a Dill whieh wa:s entirely in the.interests of the workers had been delayed by tl:lot-:e rdw claimml to be workers' representatives. He f::ulecl to see any rea~on, he said, iu tlte delay to the Bill from tlwso who had acte(l aH they did, nnh~~s it n·u:.; that they would prefer no demo­('l'atic Jogi~lation at all rather than that the Covern­mcnt should pas~ it .

"However,'' "-aiel the rremier decisively," we canuut wat'te many more days in that way. Tlw J~stillla.tes have g-ot to go through, nnd it time is \Yastecl tl1cll before :moth· r fortnight is over stL_tlS will have to lJe takeu to insure businc~s heing donP. I know 'Ybftt party flghtitlg- is, aud hHYt! ha(l to do a little ot it myi'flf in my time; but I can flay tllat I han~ nen~r allowed party iuterest.s to interfere ·with what I LlHJHJ.:llt ·was for tlJC gootl of tbo eonntry. I thought the \Torkers' DW(~lJings Bill woul(l oommcnrl i.tselt' to all parties, but evidently it dic'l. not 111atter what wa." the character of the bu~ine;.;~ ~ubwitted, the Oppot'iition would endeavour to delay it.

I take exception to those remarks of the hon. gentleman. It was altogether unfair for the Premier to make a statement like that, parti­cularly in connection with the Bill referred to. \Ve met three weeks ago to-morrow. At the commencement of the session there was a waut of confidence motion submitted, and owing to thp discussion which took place on that motion many members were precluded from Yentilating gricYances on the Address in Reply. After that motion was disposed of, some four days elapsed bofore the Address in ltoply was agreed to. The Dill introduced on Friday last was not discussed at inordinate longth. I think thirteen speakers took part m that debate, seven being on this side of the House and six on the Government side, and I find. on making a calculation on the mattPr, that the time allotted to each speaker a.-oragod about twenty-three minutes. If the hon. gentleman claims that that is stonewall­ing. or a waste of time, I think lw takes up an altogether unreasonable attitude. I want to say on behalf of this party that we do not want to waste iimc. vVo are just as anxious to get through the business as the hon. gentleman or any of his supporters, but we claim that we ha.-e the right to criticise any rneasuro brought forward if it is not agr_eeable to us. To the principle of tho Dill wluch has boon referred to wo harl no objec­tion, but we had an objc,ction to the limited scope of the measure, as it would not benefit tha people to the extent the Treasurer stated it would, or to the extent that we desire. This party is fJUito prepared to sit here in the morning from now until Christmas, and are aJ.;;o \Yilling to camP back after Chri.stn1a". if we get fair discussion of mf'a.c;;lll"{':-;__:_

Mr. Bowman.]

40j, [ASSEJ'vlBI~Y.J SuppT:z,J.

1Ju.rticu1a.r1v 1u.1r di(;;cu:;;~ion oi the E~tirnate.:; 8.n.i the F[narlcial Sta.H:went. Ii i~ ab.soluv2l\· necessar.r that the Estimates should be pu·t through without undue haste, seeing that they afford one of the few opportunities we get of discussing the administration of the Government. This will be i.ho first time for son1e ycar:3 that wo 1nay h::LYO an opportunity of di:::eu~--..,in~r ~ome hranche~ of thf· Pub1ic Ser­vice. I sp~ke to the PrPmicr to-clay, and he seon1Pd favouralJln Lo cmning in the 1norning. If h0 is prepared to do that, this party is prepared to do the same, and to sit. till Christ­rnas. an(l if the bu~inoss is not done then Yve aro ·willing to con1e hack after Christmas. There \vill he no undue discussion, so far as I know, by any members of the party sitting behind me of any items or business sub­mitted. but we claim the right to freely expre;,s our views on nny important n1atter, whether it he contained in the Estimates or in a Bill. This explanation is necessary after the statC'n1cnt \Vhich appears in this rnorn­ing's Courier as baYing been made by the ~Premier to an intcrvieVi'8T. I prefer to sit from 10 o'clock in the morning till 11 o'clock at night t.o sitting until 2 o'clock in the morn­ing, because by sitting in tho morning wo have an opportunity of having our speeches r"corded, w horeas after 12 o'clock i.hoy arc not recorded, and that is not fair to any hon. rnernbcr.

Hon. H. PHILP: They arc not reported fully in Committee,

Mr. BOWMAN: No, they are not reported fully in Committee. Still, I believe that after 12 o'clock speeches are not reported. I do not find fault with the Hunsard staff on that account, because I understand that has been the custom for some time past. It would be very much better to sit hero in the morning, if the Premier is anxious to get the business through; hut we on this side arc not pre­pared to sit here all night in order to rush the business through for the Premier or any­body else. 'Vith regard to the Financial Statement, I think the Treasurer is to be con­gratulated upon the surplus he has shown for last year. The estimated surplus was a remarkably low ono--£7,104. I do not know whether it is part of the game played to make the Commonwealth Parliament feel that we are very near a deficit at the present time, but I notice that this year again we have a very small surplus estimated. 'Ve had a very decent surplus last year, amounting to £115,302. Tho Treasurer takes a very opti­mistic view of the future, no doubt basing his opinion on the good seasons we have recently experienced, and I believe that every member in this House hopes that the ooming season will be as good as some of thB oost we have had during the past few years. It is cheerful to note that.. with the g-ood seasons, our stocks of cattle and sheep have increased to a satis­factory extent. during the last four or five years. l\1nst members who have had any ex­perience of tho Western country, and who remember the drought of 1900, 1901, and 1902, know that a disastrous state of affairs existed then, and that men who had done a great deal to make Queemland what it is to-day, from a pastoral and farming point of view, suffered scJVerely. To-day we find that while our cattle are some 2,000,000 less than they were in our best season, our sheep total 16,000,000. The mining industry has not re­ceived the attention which the present and preceding Governments should hav-e1 given it. On more than one occasion that industry has been instrumental in bringing Queensland out

[Mr. Bowman.

of distresdng tin1c.s. I think the mining In em~ bers uf the I-Iouso were pron1ised last sc'Ssi on that they would get a grant of £50,000 for cle\~olopuwnt \York.

'l'ho TnEAscr.ER: No. No definite amount ·was fixed.

..\Ir. BOW:\L\N: I !mow that some of the melllbers who were prewnt with a deputation to tl>o PrDmier were lee! to believe that £50,000 would bo given to the rr1ining industry for tha.t purp{)S~.

:\lr. \Yoons: It was df'linitoly promised during the oloctions, too.

:\Ir. BO\Y..\IAN: I was on one deputation, in conjUnction with the mining rnembers, which advocatPrl that.

Tiw TREASUl!ER: The newspaper reports do not b?a.r that out.

.\Ir. Le SIN A: That we arlvocated it? The T'REASURER: Oh, yes; but the hon.

n1crnber says there was a p-rorni.se. 1\lr. BO\Vl\IAN: I am stating a promise,

which n1ining rnernb-ers say they got. Mr. LESINA: I do not remember getting

any promise. :\lr. KENNA: 'Ve were led to believe up

:::\ orth that it was promised. The PRE1IIER: You did not get any pro­

mise of £50,000, but you got a promise of a large increase.

:\lr. BOWMAN: I think myself that had £50,000 been placed on the Estimates for the development of mining, it would not have been doing too much for that industry, and I think we could better reduce the immigration vote on the Estimates by some £50,000.

Mr. KE;(NA: A portion of Dr . .\Iaxwell';, saJary might have been devoted to tho de­velopment of mining.

Mr. BO,VJ\IAN: As the hon. member for Bowen interjects, probably a porti_on of the princely salary that has been pa1d to Dr. Maxwell for some years might well have been spent in developing mining, instoad of going to that gentleman.

The PREMIER: That would be a very small help.

Mr. BOWMAN: It would aJ! be a help, and I would remind the hon. gentleman that there are other items of expenditure which have been incurred within the last .seven months that would also be a help.

J\1r, RYLAND: The motor cars might h€lp. Mr. BOW:\IAN: In looking over the State­

ment, I find that a great deal is made of the prosperity of the pastoraJ industry and the selection which is going on. 'Ye are told that the total area sel€ct-ed last year was 4,711,812 acres. Then we are told that owing to good seasons the pastDral industry is responsible for a large contribution-

1l'his indu~try was last year responsible for a contri­bution to the exports of the State of £7,020,496, re­presenting 48,5gp er centum of the total exports, so thnt an} thing tlutt tends tll diminish value~ reacts with disastrous effect. on those concerned in the industry, and eonsequently on the general progress of the State. As an evidence of this, a considerable decrcas.e is an­ticipated from the contributions of the pastoralists under the Income Tax Act, owing to the lower prices obtaining for wool. It is rather gratifying to find from this morn­ing's papers that thero is a. large incre~~. I am sure that every m€mber of this House will heartil_y appreciate the fact that wool is going­up, and that those who are working in that industry will get the full benefit of their ~aoour, (Hear, hear!) The infltlx of settlers is stated to be indicative of the wealth of the State that we live in, and aJso of the opportunity

oupply. [7 .U.ECJCUBEl<.J Supply. 405

:.bat can he given settlers from other pa,rts of .Au,:;tr_alia. ·who canHoj pet ]and iu their re.-T{'C­tiYC' States. Dut I have long thought tluu: tll(;l't\ i~ a very grea.t di:-:c:1 ~pancy to-day, in con-

the various tenants in onr Statf\ ·;n1o11nts of rf'nt that thcv

luH)\\' tl1at tht're has 1 f'{'TI from t{rn-C' a good deal of agitation hv hon. lll{'Gllwr~.

par'ricula.r]y tho!"e r0llf£'Sfmtiri'g pa.-..:toral cli.-=-­triets, in connection ~-ith the anon1alies '.Yhich exi3t: bet.wf'-cn rent;;; paiJ. __ by ra.stora.li8ts and

raZin.c: fctrrn<~rs. Th.:1.t . .[ think. jc; apnt1H'-nt in a.nv n1an who tak03 the troub]{' i-) look OV{'T 1 he 'tU.blcs. and s.-~-e for himsf'lf the enormous diffN<:>ncf'-; which exist. and I will be ablo to shocv to th{' 80cretary for Pnhlic Land- that -;0mct.hine,- shonld l:0 done to trv and rnako the diffri'f'nce n1u.ch l('.~S tha.n it is" a.t the pre;;;ent t.inw-it is an n.~lcmaly t!'nt is b{•vonrl all rPa.:.;on. Y\ .. e lnunv. a.ncl ''-'0 u,r0 tolrl n:pPatedlv

hon. rnemtr'l's on all ~ick~.s of tl1o IIouse, our clut-y i:;. to 0nconrag-c cloSf'r sett]e­

Hlf'nt. 8.nd t-o Pive a.dvantag-es to ihe s1na.ll ~nan. I contf'nd that.. under our pre~ont s:rs­i_(.:.:rn. t.h(' acl\·a.ntago.s do r::ot go to the small lrW!L a« I (a.n pron: by ~tatistic:::. takf'n frorn rc•pr,rts of th0 ya.rirms ll·PpartnH:nb-. \Y0 ha.\"O a r"tnrH c.:.ho-,~,·ing- the total a.rea of Crov .. 'n h1uds ],'<:>r•d J:f!.,toraJ }l1lTflfJ~0:-:. and th.P amounts l'!'C Jn 1D07. tlJerC' \Yere 1,191 holdings. r)_'lJ.r> a.rC'a of Ili n..:; v-a.::.: 1 ~2.8-tfJ .. -t-80 (LCI'PS, a.nd fhf'! J'0Y0nu.P from tLrr::: !nr\.'.·\, cd ccnlJltrV wa.-< £~;)8.~1;-,6 £.~. ·H1- Th.P ta.k€n up nndC>r the v<niou~ A.-;ts-tl1a.t is, agricultural fa.rrn"': a.~Ticultura.l h<Hn<"-ltea.rls. un~onditional ,c•lf'cTI01l"'. ~:razing· fa.rm~. p.Ta.zing hoJn'f'~tcadf', ,.;rrnl1 ."~'l.Prt.wns, and pncldy pf'n.r ~f'lf'ctions-··­crmrpl'l:'-f' <;J..n al'f'll of n.boni 3.;jf}0,000 acr0s.. thG r.-•vf'nlh"\ frorn \vhich i~ £241.43.'i. Contra:;:t the £~.):1.000. i:h{~ rental. frnrrt 192.000,000 a,crcs, ,,~,t h tlw £:,41.000 n•c<'JV<>cl from 3.500.000 acres, I '"'k the hon. gcntk nan in cbar~€ of the I,;utch IJe:partm-cnt jf t110re i~ not ;o-mf'thing-ru.dl.ca.lly Eitllfr t11f"' smaJl {s TJJ.,<\-iJig' tno Dr the ra~toral 1-P~:-:('f' pa.y-in<>· too littl<'.

Th-P SECRETARY FOR ..AGlUCDJ.TFRE: One is prn.ctica.lly the- rnrchaf'in~ price.

~\Ir. l?O~Y~\L\X: In CUlllJection with gra.zinr.; It. I~ not th{~. purcba.~ing prico at a.l];

.rrrazrng- farmer IS practically on all-four:-; tht• pa.stc .. ra.l Jet.~ee~ anJ. ·he does. not

{.2'\'f. tho creant of the land. I l1Iight l1nn. !tcntk:rnan i ha.t YC'ry often h.P has t.n ta k.p a rr':--,llnll•d pnrtinn. and it is

t h0 picl~0d ~ tl1at a.rc thrown r:r~0.n. . can that.

I l:e >J::TRETAT!Y FOH. i\GI-:JLULTFRE: Are vou not Including the scttl0rs? ~

:\fr. BO\Yi\I\K: I am including all thos€ ~mdcr iJw nPa,d, I h,'""" rf'ad thi, afternoon. "t only shows that 3,.'i00.000 acres can vcrv 11early bring- in a. quarter of a. milli<)n ~f HH'ncy. while for OYPr 192.000,000 acres wo 1-:_~~·\(.' onl;v jnst a little over a quarter of a n.:!JV)ll.

The Sn'RE'r~~RY FOR PFRLIC LAKDS: How do t" rnzinrr farms cmnpar-e with pr:..storall0a:3c~?

:~r. lHHY~IAl.\~: I haY"" an in::-d-ance which CJ ~n·c' nnrlc•r rny own notic.P wh0n repr{'...::.t'nt~ in::; the '\Yn.rrego. That is th8 .c\.ra.h0J1a Run 'vhich is from ien to fifteNJ mile; from Charle: Yi1le. On that run they hav{~ an area {)f land l<'aserl t0tn 1!ing 112.840 acres. anrl they pay in nmt £101 Rs. per annum. I admit that there is a ccrtCLin portion of land on that run con-2isting of \vha.t is knfn,'n as unaYaila.blB con!l­try. bnt any rna.n '''ho knows an7thing about tha,t \Ye~tcrn country at rdl will know thR t during- drought timP tl10 ~crub country i'3-1TIOr-" va.lu11blc t.ha.n a.ny other part of the 'ruu, and hon. members know that ,,,hat saYGd our

stock during· tllG di~astrous drou,t~l1t of 1000 was the rr1nL:;a. and the <.~.rU:::;ian 1va.t{'r. li-feaT, Lcar !) The rail\\<L,Y running; tv Clw .. rlovillo divid<'cl ArabpJla, Hun into two. and the re~ sulnPd porti~)ll of it. consisting of 14.000 acres. is held by two urothers who pay a, rental of £87 10~. per onnurn. 'There you have tho hold:crs of the newnwd part paying £87 10s. for 14.000 acre.s, while the pastoral le~.3C·C3 arH p:1ying only £11)1 3s. for 11~.000 aeres of the sa1ne holding. Tho. men holding the resuined portion arc a.bo experiencing anothf"r dif1iculty, as in the ra.tf'::; t.o the rli.,-i~ional L-na.rd they haY€ to pay not on the area of land th€y hold, hut on tho annual rent which they pay fDr the land. a.nd it wDrks out that these men, though holdino: onlv 1+.000 acres, have to pay within a, few pounds of the same amount of rates paid llv th€ Jn{!n who mYn tb€ 112.000 acres. I do n>Jt want to \\ carv thP 1 J ou;:;P bv quoting furih<·r exalllpl<'c'. hm this 'P'"dicuhr one I know a c:ood dea.l al1out. as I tra.Yf'Hed oyer that. eouirtrv. irn·ostiaa.t.cd the whole rnatter a.rul l~rou,<Ilri it under 'the notice of nien1hers o£ thi; House. f think it is cvorth the attention of the }.linister for Lands t.o see if som€thinf>; cannot b{?- rlone to ettnalise th-e r.Pnts paid. b:-~ the pa:-:tora.l less-ees and the holders of graznlg­fa.rm~ to a. fa.ircr degree than whn,-1- they a.re at. tho pro:'-Pnt timt). I suppost~ the m-oqt i!l­i'f•.r<':"d.-in,~~· pnrt of thi" Finnncial ;..;;tah rn-ent wdl 1~~ tl1at T0;Prriu<_~ to th-P S'atcs i':e Corn-monwealih. ri'here i:-; 110 donLt for some C0Tl6id{'ra.b]{' tinH~ pa.st there ba.s 1H-~-cn n. g·ood deal of k·eling lJch.,-een c-crto..in n1en1Ler,:;; of Parlianwnt-(•~. pccia.lly on the part of_ those -,v·ho arc lc,adting- th·c Gov1:rnr0ents I~

1 th?

various StaJ,e~. at. the present. tnn'l..~~whicJ.r 13

ca.u."ing a ~ood dea.l of anta.::;·oni~rn lJotw?en th<' 8tatcs and tho Commonwealth. I thmk it is a.s well for us to Yiew tJ1is rna,tte1: as dls­pa.s ~ion ately_ as posssil-·le, bee'_. ~.::o I beli-eYe. \Ve

an' all anx1ous to con1e to the hest po;:;s1blo n,rr·ang·f'mPnt of the flna.ncia1 rela-tions b:twoou the Cnmmnn,v<'a.lth a.11d th{'> States In the fnt.ure. I h:1,y~ nnlic<'cl t.lwt in spite of tho many Premiers' Conf-E'ff'IlCe~ that have _l1e-E'n held fron1 tin:f' to tiHH:'. Y·ery littl-e gcoct has transpir<'d from them.

:.:r. II \HDACF.E: Hear, hear 1

:\Ir. BO\Y:\TA::\': \\ny, ii \Yn,s the n;ost im~ port.a.nt qu-estion to bo c"~msidrr.Pd at tHa.t la_"t Premi·ers' Confen•ncc hf'ld i11 :\_!p]l;c~n~n<"' lfl April o~ ]a+ ye<1r. P .. nd th0 PrcllllfT, a.·inou'.;:r h<' wa.s then:~. cn]v Tf'mn.lnecl fo1~ a few day;-;~ h0 wa not ilH~ff' ~to deal ~. itl1 1hc v0ry que:.:.: tion is a.uiia.tin~ th<' va.rinn:-:- ,: .... taJ-0~ qt the ComJno!l'\Y{"~ lth to-day a,s Wf'll as the Umn· monwea.lth itself. _ \ ,rt1ea.t cry 11a.s. be:n r:a.is-ed. a.nd the PrC'Inier.11inL"0U ha:-. ra.1sed I~t· lT c h·,.s told ns tlle t~ 1ttle cry for th€ nex • :F{'dcral el-ection to 1;{'. Shu:e rights.

Th{': THE~'.I.sc:m~n: ?\o.

:\fr. BO\Y:\TAX: \Yhv. tlmt is one of th<' !!iY-en for the ~xistencE~ of tb<~ coa.lition ~n the other side of tbe Houoe to-clrcy.

who identified tho !Ion.

l-!111 tl0 . , llllf'Cti:·n

1lwv ori<kntiv took thn df'n1(mstra.t{'(1 in tho lwn.

'T"f'ch that l1r: ie ont to fi~ht~-at ct:n int{)rYiC'\~'E'l' so in :.r{'lLuunv~~­

recurd.Pd jn the PrPss-1£ Wf' aro i.o that he -,~,ra~ 2oing tc fi.~ht a!.rain3t ~Pnators at th<~ :r;ext 1tedPral cle::--

'.Tr. TT•nn.\rr.F.: H<'ar. h'ar: :Jir. BO\V-:\f.\:.r\1': That cann--Jt Le dc;;ied 1\

the Pr~Inier.

Mr. Bowman. J

Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The TREASl'RER: \Ye ask to ]JaY e. a fair settlenwnt Get\reen thn CommD!l\\'ettlth and the StatBs. That is all we want.

c1Ir. DO\Yii!AN: A great deal of mm1ey ha,s teen ':ipent in State Prflmiers' Confere11Ce~ in tryiug to solYe this question.

:'ITL COYNE: And ,,·ith 110 g·ood result. 2\!r. DOW:\IAK: And up(<) the prhent tlwy

have not been able to sc,ho it. \Yhy, the hon. gentleman who framed the Federal Constitu­tiDn, SirS. \Y. Grili!th, tLe Federal Chief Jus­tic-e, re0ognises the difliculty of th<> present financial a.nangement. I think I wilil bo able to proYe this aftf'ntoon that, so far as QueCilS· 1a.nd is conc.Pnw·cl, slli' hcL:, very little to cow.­plaiu of. so fa.r a"- her treatnlE'lJt is concerned. r<'specting lhe Comm0nwea1th.

0PP08ITIO:'l :\[JD!l\J-:R[3: 1-Jcar. hear! . \lr. BOW:\lA?\: I think there is 110 Stat0

in Australia to-da.y that mn" a greater de ut of .~Tatitnde tu the C'ulllll!Oll\Y0aHh than l)uc<?JJS· llmd does.

OPPOSITION l\h:nlBERS: Hear, hear! :\fr. BO\Y:\TAN: She lws h<>cn enabled Lv

thf' Commonwealth Parliament to carrv Dut 'a Loast that the leader of this House has lOT Jnany years a.clwJcated---nn,nlC'ly, for a. white Australia~-and the CDnmJonwealth have to pa,v a bount,v for it. Later on, I ,,-ill show the amount of bountv that Las been received bv ths State from 'the Co:nmonwealth to pre scrye l~twen'3land a.11d ~-\ustra1ia a.:3 a white rrw.n's CDnntry.

OPPOSITION :\TE~TBER-3: ]J car, hear! ~ir. 130\Vl\TA:"J: I rhink it is as well for us

io cnnsidor. in the fir . ...;t r .. Jac{~, how ·we hase lJPen treated by the Commonwealth. On pa.gt• 8 of tlw Treasnrer's Sta.tcment, in the 4th paragraph, app'E'ars the fnllcnYing :-

'l'bc ~ttention of llon. members may be drawn to the fact that Que~·nslana dnring the list tinanci::d year received £41 .. 207 le~s than the thre~-fonrths of the net Cu-,toms and }:.H~ise l'f'Vt>nne collected in Queensland. and that it is Hnticipated ilult for the eight a,nd a,-half years ending 30th Jmw,, HJU9, there will he a ~hOTtlq.:e of £56,fi11 in the a111ount returned. lrhile considernhle !"Urns have been pH.id to the otJwr Sta,tes fl'om the nnsxpenfled p0rtion of the Commonwealth's one-fourth, Qnecnsland Ts in the rnfortunate }l0flition of being the onb· State that will not have recf~ived its full threP­fourtbs. The ConlnlOn\VPalth Parlia1nent is n1erely carry­ing ont the Comtitution under which it is worked.

0Pl'O~ITIOX MlDIBEHS: Hear, he or ! Mr. BOWMAN : And T do not think that any

hnn. gentlen1an in thi." House can complain if that is clone. If the Commonwealth Parliament did not do that, probably there wodd be Rome condemnation on the part 0f hon. memhers who to-d~1y are cornplair1ing about the Common­wealth, if they went out>ide the Constitution to dn anything that"''" illegal. :\Tow, clause 87 of the Constitution provideti-

Dnring the fir;;;t ten :.nars after the e"tablbhment of tbe Commmrwei1lth, and there~fter until the Parlia­ment otherwise provide.". of the net reYenue of the Common,YPalth from the dntks of Cut>toms and ExC'i~e not more than onr-fonrth shall be RJ:,pliecl annuaJJy by the CommotnYcaltll to,yartls its expenses.

It has been stated that QueenHland has not got a fair retnrn in compari,on with the other States. I think the Gommonwealth has faithfully kept its obligation" to us. They have stuck to the Constitntion, and I believe that any difference that has existed between the Commoi1wealth and the States in this respect has been due to the system of bookkeeping and the transferred ser­vices. ':rhPre h8.ve been certain accwmtions of injustice in the past against the Ccnnmnnwealth. '!'hey have been accn,ed of dislocating the State finances hy taking one-fonrth of the net Customs

[ 111 r. IJoumwn.

and Excise collections, as provided by the Con­stitution. They bave also been accused of being responsibh.: for the loss consequent upon 1nter· state freet,rade, and the adoption of a uniform tariff. All these things are really due to the overation of the financial sections of the Com­monwealth Constitution. It is well that th1s Chem ber should know from the Auditor-Gene· rJJ's report what has been dnne in the directic;n of increased services by the Conunonwealth 111

connection with this State. Perhaps it will be fair for me to read the revenue rPturnR as well as the expenditure to show our e-.: act position. The Auditor-General says in his last annual report-

001DION\\"EALTH AOCOl':'ITS. 10. The revenue, as s~own in the statement }1Ub­

li~hed hY the Commonwealth, dnring the years JG06-7 and 1907-s \vas-

HHl6-7 . 1907-8. Balttnee brought for- £ 8. d £ s. <~·

ward from previous Year

'" 3,!73 -t

C1istom.-. and. Exci::;e l,277,fJ2i) l 5 l,498,l:l0 19 6 Post and 'l,elegraph 422.237 4 0 450.218 0 6 Defence 851 9 10 520 2 Patents 2,008 0 2,589 9 Tmde ::Harks, copy-

rights, and dP'>igns 834 .j, 1,112 8 Qneen.,land's prot·or-

0 :3.::328 6 0 tion ot new rP.venne 1,510 0 J'Tiscellaneons rreeipts G>.1 0 5 8Gl H 10 Balance to be adjusted :2110 5 10

£1,710,593 10 6 £l,9G8,7Gl 0 5

And the expenditure during these years was-Br balance brought forward from :-30th

' June, 1907 161 0 0

Trans.ferred departments-Trade and Customs 51,03! 17 9 l'o..-t and 1'ele!;'raph -±;H.l!::l2 H 11 Defenee I22,I:3l 12 2

New works and build­ings for transferred tlepnrtments­

r:I'n~<le and Customs Post and Telegraph Defence

Home _\ff4il's 1for sun­dry departments)

'Othci·" expenditure,

151 0 0 ~~5.S2?.i 3 5 25,05> H 6

51,099 0 9 Mi0,17:1 ll 9 1-10,414 0 8

1 '1;)5 18 3 55,0Z~ lll 10 fi6.9:li 19 8

~~~~ti~\~land's pro- £<9.2-Lt 7 8 159,9~)9 15 4

The TH!lA~liRER: That includes old-age pen­sions-which they should neYer have taken.

:\lr. BOWMAN: I will d~al with old-age pemions later. '!'hey ha-'-'e not taken much, so far-only £24,000.

'rhe T,nEASURER: That is for only one month.

Mr. BO\VMAN: Continuing the quobttion-Refund or fine, Im­

migration Restric­tion d..et

Survlus returned to State

Balance Ior ~H1jnst­Jneut.

£ lOO

9-12.569

8. rl. £ '· d.

1,003,52() 1-± 0

0U51· 11

.l:l.7lO,Oll3 lll o £1,966,7lil 0 5

The Tm:.\s\JREH : The expenditure is getting un fast.

'::r.rr. BO\V::\IA)i': But the State is deriving the benefit of all this expenditure. If the Com­nwnwealth were not in existence \Ve \Vonld have to erect all these new bnilding::l for m~r\wlves, so that thoy are really giving us ":n eqn:valent for the money we might have got 1f theu expend1· tnre had not been so great. The book-keepmg is another matter that we have to take into con­sideration as well a~ tra.nsferred senices. In this connection Mr. Knibh,, in the Official Year Book of the Commonwealth of Austraha, Rtates, on page li-10~- . ,

The principle-Involved in this section I~ that of crBdJt­i.ng- eaeh State with the CommonweHlth reY~nuc collecte<l inSide that State, and of delJiting each '''lth the expen-

Supply. [7 DECE:l!BER.J Suppl.lf. ±07

ditnre inlmncd on it~ hdntlf in connedion \Yith iH transferred (l0partJnt>n1~. a:-: ·wDll a>~ It~ :--llare. (JlJ et p£~r cnpit.a hasi-;, Pt ne·w expciH.hlure of the CO!lllHOllw~Calth.

Tl10se men ha,~e simply carried out a fair thing to C)ueemland. Over a11d abo,-e the amounts they were entitled to pay back to the States, what haye the Commonwealth paid back to the \'arious States '! They haYe paid them £G,05fUJG2.

rrhe S:ECRETARY FOR PUBI.IC LAKDS: \V hat was Quecusland's sharE·.

Mr. BOiYJ\LU\f: I read the ,;hare just now of the an1onut of buildings and other· e-xpen­diture; l also stated what has !wen done re­garding Queensland's share. This £G,OOO,OOO

is over and above the atnount the ['1.30 p.m.] State" vn~re Pntitlcd to gct--o·n'r

aud n boyn the three-fourths; and if t.he Federal Grwcrnnwnt hac! so decided they eould have kept those £6,000,000, and the State .. could not have saic1 mw word. I say the Uonuncnnvcalth Govrrnrrwnt haYC been verv liberal; Lut, because they ha Ye

passed c~rtain legi~lation, and \vant certain funds to enable thorn to give effect to that legislation, we haYe a cry about the Federal scheme and the Surplus ltovcmw Bill. iVhat has Qtwensland recPivec1 over and aboyc the rhrec-fourlhs: It is interesting to read a table from ?.lr. Knibbs's book showing the payment to the States from the Common­wealth fourth of the net Customs and Excise rncnuo from 1901 to 1907. In the half-year to 30th June, 1901, Queensland had a gain of £70.525: in 1901-2 she was debited with f>W.1RS; in 1902-3 the credit amount was :S15,0i7: in 1903-4 there was another debit of ;,2,4-55: in 1904--5 there >~as £28,811 debit: in 190.'>-G there was £8,639 credit; in 190G-7 there-',ll;.is £18,812 credit; total, £61,599. The clcbify;ars tot:llled £51,4~'t, and if you deduct that from the £113.000 odd, you get a balanc<• of £G1,5~; and if you again deduct lh<' £1.-l-.000 the TrPasurer savs he is to the bad from the £G1,599. ho ha's still a credit balance of £17.392 m·er and abone tho three­fourths. I want to know what the hon. gentleman has been crying about. 'rhe hon. gcntlcn1an got £.13,573, according to his O\Vn ~tatcment, n1ore than l,he Tr0asurer esti­mated last year; and how does he know he ·will not receive the ;3arnc amount next year'? l'p to the present he has nothing to complain of. I want now to deal with a lJUCstion to which I alluded in the earlier part oL my remarks-that is, that this State is indebted to the rest of tho Commonwe-alth for the splendid service they have rendered Queens­land in building up t.he sugar industry, and putting it in a position tha.t few rnrn in the ~hJtf' wi1l cavil at, 0·rcn those clircctly intcr­('...:tf'd. It 1.:::. l'+'p:a.rded now a.s Leiug. perhaps. a.s solid as ever it was since cane was first plantN1 in Queensland.

Hoxot:HABLE lYIEMBEHS: Better than ever it was. :\1oro so.

Mr. BO\V.IYIAN: ]\[ore so. What amount of mollev has been naid m bounty for the la't tltref' years: In 1906 there wa., 1.195.678 tollS of ca.ne, and bounty was paid to the amount of £285,420; in HJ07 1,452,400 tons of ea !le were o·rown by white labour, and £,HlO,OG8 wa~ paid in bounty: the esti­mates for 1908 there were 1,370,000 tons of cane grown, and there was paid in honmy for that yc•ar £4-70,000. For the three years Queensland was paid £1,25-1,438, less her proportion of the amount of the l•oUJ·ll.v. 1 think that in 1907-8 then' wa.s £74,500--that was a debit a,gainst Queensland

in cotlllt'Ction \\·i~h, the sngar bounty pay~ mellts. But even then I contend that the aot.ion of t.ho Cmnn1onwealih in fostC'ring what was desired, particularly by the dernooratic section in Queensland, has resulted in building up the inclustry with white labour; and the cry m the past that the white man was not capable ha.s Lwen disproved by the generous tTPatmc•nt we have rcceiYed from the Federal authorities anrl ilw people of A ust.ralia. I say that l/ueensland owes a debt of gratitude to the rest of Australia for the handsome way in ,, hich she has l1een treated.

:\Ir. HvLAXD: That bonus was paid out of the one-fourth.

1\Ir. BOii':\L\X: iVe have heanl a great deal about the Surplus Hu·enue BilL The rrreaSlll'CI' intcrjf'd_ed a fC'\V IIlOnlCJ1tS ago that tho Couunon1'.'ealth WPre retaining a certain sum for the old-age pensions under the Com· monwealth Act. Personally. I am glad the Commonwealth has taken up the position taken up respecting old-age pensions; and the present Premier of this State. at ono of the conference~, agreed that it \Vas a v\·ise thing t ha.t till' C'onnno11" ea.lth ,Jtoulcl t"kl· ,,., ,.,. the old-age. peusions. B.oiL n1embers seem to think ho has altered his opinion since then. "\t the last PrcmiN"s Conference. held in J\1el­bourn{~, they passed ~L resolution in favour of it. rrhe first clau.Sf', on page 8 of the report nf the "Hf'"-olntion~. Proct'<"diugs. aucl Df'l1a.h'-:. <1f dH' Iut<'l'~faJf' ('onff'l'C'llC:t1., held iu ~.lei­hn:mlP i1t April-~Iay. 1908. rcac1,-

1.'ltH.t for tlle pnrpo;>e of en~hliPg the }'ecleral Govm·n­ment to initiate a general .">cllemc of oltl-agc }ICn~ions, the State {;OV(·rmw·nt;.; will he u~recable to t-u•cept a smaller p1·oportion nr the Cnstoms and .Kxei~c reYenne than thrro:J-fourtlls. ana thus ~upplemrmt. if nece;;:sHry, the arnount. ·whir:ll ('Hn lx~ provitled undPr the Common­wealth Surplus Revenue Dill.

rrhat resolution, passed at th~ Premiers' Con­fe-renc<?. agrPe.-:3 to the Ycry thing· lion. lTic-m­b{:rs h~n:' a.r-e caviling at.

:\fr. HARDAl'HE: The cnnference passed it a.g a.u1 a.nd aga.in.

:\lr. BO\Y:\TA:\': Of course, you do not know wha.t the Commonwealth will do until nc"X:t vt'ar TJ1e tin1e of rcsidellcB in the Corn· m.om;·ealtb Old Age PPnsions llill is twenty­fh·e vears instead of twenty years: that may dt~lJa.'i.~ :-'01110 people in tht"' st~te, but 1 J~nOIV a nu.rnb.Pr who ha-re bcf'll 111 .:'\.ustraha, for twentv-fh·e vea.1·s who ca.nnot participate, be­c.a.use 'thcv have not been twenty years in the Strcte of .. t)ue0nslancl. C nder the Comm~m-1Yea.ith Act, thcrP is a proyi:.:ion unOer vduch tflC inYalicls will gd the pension at sixty years, whcrca.s ours i~ f-ixtv-five yea.rs. And I thmk thev make a reduction in, the agB of females a·, ·cornparecl vvith uw.lc, -1 think it is :.:ixty vPar.s. iYith a p<>Ibion like that, where you are ;J.pa]in ~with tlw whole of the Commonwealth­it mat~rs not wha.t pa.rt of the Commonwealth \Ott ha.ve liwcl in-if you can fulfil thf'Ir quali­fications, and I lrelieYf' it 1vill be n1uch rnore satisfa.ctorv than our own Act. Up to the present thc•re bas been some little friction, but, taking it right. thJ·oug-h. f think th<~. ac1nll111S­tmtion up to the present has been fairly rroocl. Thf'rE' i!' ..;onle ~trin.gency wit.hiu tl1e la~t. '~'eek m· two <'VCn with those that have tlw pensiOns. Thev are now beinf\" brought to book to pronl their a.c;e. and they have to send t" the old countrv: It. ha.s been giv.Pn to .'30illC for a f.e"'-v Inonth;, and a nutnber of thPn1 ha.ve nrn·:' to g,) to the Cnder Secretary to-nlmTo\V rnorn1ng.

:l\Tr. D. Hr"C\TEH: iYhat happened i"n the Vallev last ,,-cek luppened in my <'icctorate a fe,,· 1;1011ths a~ J.

ltfr. Bowman.]

408 0urpt !!· [ASSE.JlBLY.] SuppliJ.

)fr. BO\Y:\L\:'\: It i; uot particularly in tlw \~'allf'-V. 1 ht:;lie-ve it app\i-e,.., to ev-ery district in !..l~e·en.slancl. PP1':30llally, I am in fa.vour of the ConunDnwealth taking- o"Ver the old-a.~e pen-..ions instPad of th{' variou~ Stfttes.

The SECRETAHY FOR ~\GHICCLTCHE: it wil~ nut U-(~ achninistcred n.s cheaply.

l\fr. BOW:\!IAi\: It is amusing for the hon. ~entleman to tell us it will not be admmJs­tered as cheaply \Ye do not know what the cost will bo yl't.

The SEC'HETAH> F'OR AGHICCLTDRE: It has cost us about £300.

3f r. BO\VMAl'\: I know the cost has been ven- small, because the police are doing it for vou in most of the districts of Queensland, ~nd dwt probably will cause some attention to h• paid tD\1 a.rd, tlw PolicP Fnrc.p wlwn tlH• Esti1natcs are going through-the number of duties thev ha Ye to perform, and the very small pay 'they get. I think the State Prc­Jniers' conference. by tho resolution that they ha vo passed-a£ course, the Premier of Queensland had gone, he could not wait, he did not \'\'(),llt tn 111i" nw 'bu~ Ol' boa.t---ln• wantPd tn get a\.vaY. and a remarkable thing to me is that the late Attorncv-General who was in ).Iclbourue at tho time, ~conld not have been deputed, or ;;:.omo other }Iinistcr, to sPe that tJucerL>lanc]',3 interests were safeguarded.

~\1r. -:~IAK):: rThe Prmnier did not care ahont. Quccnsla nd.

:\Ir. BO\Yi\L-\::\: To me it sePmed absurd that a tllan should go tn an in1portant confer~ rmcc like t.hat, stay a few days, and when the priwipal yyork had to be discu"Pd, he left it tn thn nthPr Premiers. He may have been a Yoico again~t th8 Common-i'll( _.As hon. lTJPm her for Clern1ont sa:v...;, the Premi<'r ha:o-; chang0d hi~ opinion j ]Jrc ,-. tinl0'1, ana h~ rnay have changed ii· again, and fpi] in with tlw majority on that occa~ion. It. \Vas ratlwr nn1nsing the grr'at tirad-0 aga.inst the Conunonvi'ea.lth wh~u thi~ Surpiu~ Rill vvas introducc·d. rrh0 Press '"'ere vr-ry 5'L'Yf'I'C in their condcuJliation: and an appeal, of course, was at once made to the authorities to haYo the legislation upset. But, as boil. rrienlbCi'S know, the High Court up­held tlw a.et.ion of the Federal Parliament­that. thPy had actf'd C)uite within their pD\VC'T:;:. On pa.~e 8 the Treasurer sta.t.cs---

Thf'rc "\Till lle a ~·rcn_rrinp: flf'1\Hction even 1\JOlll h on :u·t~onnts, 1vhil't1 'Yill ~erion..;;ly h~tmpPr the Statf~.

}ll'f' nlrral1_\. p·tying nl<l-ag~ pr->n:.-irm~ to thr- :unonnt about £135,000 per :-tl1:JH11L ud tlw Fedrl'al (;oTC'l'll­

mcn:- an~ thus cnmpf.lllll~ thi~ State to pay tlli:" lle;t\".\' item t vice over this year.

Tho TREABCJU:R: rrJJat is so. They hu;y{' takc·H our n1oney.

~lr. ]1()\Y:\1.\X: 1t- i~ nothing of t]H' :·-ol't. r_rhey a.rf' t~·oing· to tak(' en f'r thC' old-a:.2·<\ p0ll­

sions. '\Yhat ,,·on]d be the us-e- of lwYinu: pas~0d an Okl-a.r~P P(•nsions A_ct if th{~y di:.l 1wt· han::. th-e nec~ssary fund~ to rnrf.'t. it'? ~

The Trm.-\SrRJ<:R: They ~0t it t\velYe mont}Js l :•LT" tll{'fP j, any lH't J Df it.

~Ir. BO\\,-:\L \N: rrhc-'y arc simply pr<'-Yidillg for n. ;-:;nffici{'nt arnnunr. so rha.t th0v can pav when thP n.1nount is dui'-. ~ ·

r_rhB S1~C'RETAHY l•'OR Pr·rLIC LA:S:DH: Laying· up trf'a...,urcs.

:\ft·. BOi\'~\L\:'\: Yes. and I do unt tlH La.nd, will 2onwnd tb{'v a1·0

wrcm!l" if th0y are la,_Yi1lg· :1p tre<t~ures for tho old pen::::ioners of A.u ;,tralia.. Th{'y are nnt goirL to :;;pf'nd 1t on a.ny othe-r service. "\Ye-

[Jfr. Bowman.

knnw exact]v ,-.,hat it is-it i.s ear-marked f{\r ,, .<p<'cial pn;·pm<': _a.ncl I ihink they would be lacking in t.h0ir duty if they chd not mako pr?-­Yi,ion: no'v that the- !Jill has be-en passe.U 111

the Fedora.! Parliament, to mod the demnnd whc'n thP timt~ a.rriY-e~-ihat i::;, next June.

'l1hc SF.CRT~TARY 1··on 1?'rnr.rc LAXDS: Tlt0y are rna.king- that provi.sion when thH rnoney shonlrl. co1ne La.>::>k iniG 0nr O'"n cofi0r::;.

:\fr. l!AHDACRE: \Ye will gct it back a.ga.in.

:,rr. BOIY:\L\::\': You are not going· to lose it. . ,

The TRJcAsenrm: That does not a.lter tne sta.tcrne>nt that w-e· are b,~ing doub1f'-ba.nkecL

1\Ir. BOW:\L\:'\: Hon. members opposite, and rnanv others 1 are a ,~-erso to certain legis­lation th;t has been passed in the Common­wealth Parliament, and thov cl<esire to get there a rww party that, perhap~, will serve them or their interests better than tho party m power to-day, or the party that has kept !he late Gon~nunent in power 1 and I que~t.Ion whether anything dono by them wo~ld sat~sfy the hon. members. \Ve know thcrr desrre, and instead of raising the cr_v of anti-socialism during the ucxt campaign, now it is Stato rights-. for their high priest has practically gone, out of political life. He has resrgned the l<'arlership of their part)l. and to-day he JS just ono of the ordinary nwm hers of tho House. That was their hopo last tune-the Hon. GGorgB Rcid anrl his anti-socialism~and an ath-ocato followed him from Queensland in this Honso to-day--that is. the Secretary for Lands. \Vith all the conferences that have beEm held. and with all the schemes that have been submitted-Sir \Villiam Lyno's, Mr. Hohert Harper·s, and Sir John Forrest's­thev ha YC not vet bN•n able to devisP a scheme tha't 1Vil1 ~atisf~T the PremierB, and give some­thing deJinite · in tbo way of a return of r·cye]mo to th0 Sta t~s. ·

The TmcAST"Bim: Do0s that say that the. next conferPnC<' will not bo able to do so?

:\Tr. n<nn,tA"': Well, you ha Ye had seven trios, and it is a Lout tirno YOll can1e- to smne fmalitv. I prooose to read a scht•mo which was fr,rmulated in July of this y<"m: at a. Federal Labour Conv{'ntion held in Bnsbane --a sclwme which was highly praised by_ the Hight Hon. GPorgo Rcirl in the Federal Par­liain<)nt as one of the best yC't subn11ttc~l for (·onsidt.\ration. The sf'hC'nio I rcfpr to 1s as follows:-

Tlmt. f'onferPnrr l-JPlH'OYf'~ the KinC!: O':\I}l]l(>y'~ ::-:clH:lltC rPlatin~ a. mttir::nal b:.ink.

Tllat thisCJnnfcn~nre 8Xpre:"s·.:; its of' tbe sclwnw a~ thr 1m:::is :ill of the re1nt1om; hetw(·en tbc C'OJ11H10lH'irf'allh

and StatPs :-~ 1. That tlH' Sta'f':- ~1iOHltl contillll8 to rcct;iV£' a shn.rr~

of tllf-; Ferlend 1'·'\"f'tlllt'. ~~ 'fhHt ~11rll ~tnnnal io<hnrr 1V' tr) the .St:>te~ in

tht>. fonn of a fi'U'cl Slllll per Of tllP pf>p•.tlntioll, .-:ncll ~nm tr) be a-,('f'rtained dtll'ilq:; nr brfnre tha year 19ltl on thf' b'\S;::-; ~110wn in tlw fo\nth pa.r:'.AI':tr1~.

3. That the prODOi'tion nf 1 ·YClme allo(·atrrl to the Commonwe·tlth mu~t be .-;nfl:ieient to eoYf'r-

i(t\ .\ll cxb:ting CX11Cndi!ure apart fr:Jm :·cprodue­thc .•wrYit'C~

{bl f,lfl A~e ;!nll romJnon\\'f'::t1th:

:r'cn:--ions tllrunghc.nt tlle

(. 1 An :t(lditionnl !-.Hln. nnt to f'X(~r-:r~rl ollP 1lliliion })011Till~. rnr the PY'DoHHlin•• llef~('S,:--;jtif'S nf the I''Pdernl s.1wh :1s the creation nr tl1e FPclPl'al l'ailwar mHh-rtakings. awl thf' development the Xm:tlu:rn Terl'itory

4. That th0 ~nwnmt of the lixc~(l p~lpncnt pc1· l'tpit~t to be returned to the States be a~w~rtalncd lJy-

(u· Takln£" the an•rng-p tntal of trw Cn:--tom.-:: and Ex­cl"f' revenue of Hvc l't'!Jn·scnt<i.tive 3 ears before l\llO:

Suppl;~. [7 DECEMBER.]

~~') Dednrtiu~ thPrerrom the avernge t0tal of Con11nonwc~1th expenditure, for the same repre:-<fmtatiYe yrar8, under the three heads t•nnmerated in trw tllircl paragraph;

(C,t lfn·iding tlte arnonnt so arri\:ed at by the av(~l';tgc 11um'uer or the vopulation or Australia for tile ~aHte representative yea.rs.

G. That in v]e"\Y of the exceptwnal po,:.;itiou of We~tcru Au:::;tralbt. a fnrtlwr 1 apitation ·~raut :-;hould he made to tl!at State, to gratlnally t1iminit-ill uvon a sliding >.:-Cale lllltil it~ ~bare d the _Federal reYellne coim'ides per ea pi Ut with tllat of the oth()r .States.

That is a. scheme which has been favourably connnonted upon in more than one quarter. { iiw of our daily papers, the Daily JI ail, in an art,jdp this n1orning indicated the fairness of such a proposal. Notwithstanding the atnnnnt o£ n1onoy spPnt in the past by Prc­HliPrS and Trea::;.urers on conferNJces thev han' not yet been able to solve this difficulty with any satisfaction The scheme formu­lated by the Federal Labour Convention is a. fair and equitable one.

The TREASURER: It would not work out so w0ll as Lync's scherne on present lines.

:\Ir. BOiV:\1AJ\': I think it would work out better. But the hon. gentleman and his chief orpo:;;;o Lytw's scheme. The J_ic.bour Conven­tion's scheme will dep0nd upon the population of a ~late a·•, to how it will work. As the population of a Statr-~ grows so ·will its rPvPnue increase. 'l'hcre is another matter tha.t I wish to dra.w attention to, and that i2- the public estat-e improvement fund. \Yhile I admit that the Government ha.v" in many imtancc, found a. good deal of employ­meut for. a nnmbPr of unemployed in the ad­mrmstratiOn of that fund, still I am bound to point out that there are certain figures in connectiOn w1t.h that fund which arc not a good ad,?ertisC'mPnt for Queensland. Accord­ing to the figure'S given in the tables relating ~n tlw TrPasurer's Financial Statement the tYlOIH'.V C':c.::p.0ndcd on. the clearing of 'soine land> of pnckl,v pear 1s altogcthC'r out of pro­pnrtioll to the ,-alue of those lamk Take the ,J rmr1ar,van lands. for in;;;;;1·ancr.

c\n Ho~OFRABLE :\fDTBEH: That was four yeu1·:-; ago.

:'IIr, BO'IY:\IAX: But the fig·urcs arc still ht'J" in this talJlP.

\n lloc;oGHABLE :\IE)JBEH: And will rc­nwin there.

. ..\Jr. I~O\Y:\L\X: Accorcliuc:- tD those ficcurcs d co~t ::::::./ .. W a.u acrP io clea.r tbo e la.nd:--. , Thf'

180 a.crf~s. and tlle nnn1lJer of n1en . in cle~ring it 'n1s 268. The hig·he~st

':·age pmd v1·a.s 1~. 6d .. tho lo\' est ls. 6d., and tllf\ aYer-a.g-e 4s. 4d. P<'r dav. rrhe cJea.rjng o£ tLnt land cost £:!0 JG~. ,)d." a.n a.crB. P(•rhaDs th:' :\lini<ter for LawL wili be able to t<'ll ns l~<'fnre tlli~ d<'1Hl.tf"< clo~{'S ,,·JJeibcr then• is

of tha.t Ja.nd lwin.'~ ta.k-l'Tl up. or , ha:s hocn a;- a.lJ) COYPrC'd with prickly peaT.

'-OilH' 'Ynrk dmH-~ ln connr>ction v·ith th{~ e..;;tatof' improvemPnt fnnd -;tands to

of U1-e CoYf'rnnwnt. They ha.Yo put do..,vn L{)r.e-~, and n1n..de l.YJa.ds-··-

'~;-ork ·wa.; aL::.:nlutely n<"c-f~~<::a.ry to clear tnP 1 Ya,;: for .:.:cttJcm<'JJt.

~I r. CoY~E: Such works should not l:-2 con­fmcd to ono cbtrict.

'\Yha.t tiw hon. member £or .sa.ys i~ true. Thi~ kind of -work, purticula.rl,v th<> putting down of bor<>A, J10nld !tDt l,e- confin.rd to ono district. but ~houlcl l>t~ di;;;trilmt{'d DYPT different pa.rts of the Shttc. Dalhv has ha.d more than its ,]Ja.re of the work~ carri+.?d. out unrler the public estat-e in1· proyement fund.

I:fon. R. PHILP: -~/Ol.l ;;oted fur a railway there last year.

}.lr. BO\Vl.I~-\=-';: I knovv \VB did--l:eca.use it was represented to lH3 a good inve;;;;t,rnent.

]ion. I-l. PH ILl': Becau:"J you had to.

:'IIr. BO\YMA::\: Ko, we had not to do it. \Yhy, tlK• hon. gentlerna.u is .;uing tD ~upport. tlw c;m·prnment, and help tlwm to build this railway now.

Hon. R.. PHILP: I did not. vDte !or tlw ra.il­v:a.v.

:\ir. BO'\Y:'IfAX: I know that, lmt the hnn. ~·P11tlenw.n i;::; in a wor~e pu .ition now tha.u wr~ (i1 thi.- :::ide \Y8I'8 Wh(~Jl We voted for th{' rail-

r. wav. ··r think tbe sv~tcrn of .subrnitting- rail· "'a~·"· to thi...; Ilous€ i~ a wron.f.r one. It.ailv;ay~ ar·2" brought do\\'n to the House vYithout bei:1g first. tlFn'{;u~·ldy inquired i!1tn.

1-lon. R. PHILP: 'That was a party Tail way.

:\Jr. BO\Y:\L\K: It dir.l not bendit. me tJ.t all. I inquired fr-om one hon. nlPinber !-new tlk doctora.te, a.nd he told me that di.:..trict ,, a:-; onB worthy of a raihva.J.

Hon. R. l'BILP: It should never have been there.

:\lr. BO\Y:\L\K: I do !JOt kno•s whether it :-:houl(1 haYf' been th{'r<.~ or not. l 'va.s guHlPd in the rna.tter by the evid-ence of a ma.~l \'>.~ho

had tra.Ydled m-er the d1stnct [:J p.m.J and tha.t 1na,n wa.~~ not the hon.

1nemhcr rt"'prc·q~nting the distri.ct. \Y C' n1av 1Ja.Ye a change in the;;;oe 1na.tters l~o: ... ,·. seeing- that wB have a chango in tlw ach,nn:ns · tra.tor of the La.ncls Department., anrl proual: ly there will net be ~o 1nuch f!iyen to thn .dJs~net of Drr.!by. to the detwn:mt of" otg;r ~tolncts. as has beL'll the- '?ase 1n tDc l2as . -: pei e 1s one other matter \vh!Ch we probably w1h be a.blc to got information upon. The hon. member)or BalonlL a~~kecl a. ~encs of qnc.::t1on~ rega._;o~nr.~ the expf'n.;;e'i during th.o IH'{'~,cnt yC'.ar, ana \na~ hn..s not hcl~ll fnrthcornin:..;. lntt I. hop'? v,re :-lE:J,L !.';f't it :_c>fore the Estimat{'s arn rmlsHh:red. [ think thr1i tht~ la.~t CoYf'l'l'JtH'nt---rarhct~la~ly ·...:onln Dlf'nlbf'l':"; of ihC' !2T-C't!.t"<;;;[ fH,ClllC

huntt•r-, I haYt..-. ew"'n in !~ue-::•n:::la..'1'L esp~ciall~ the la.te *Sc cl·-ct;Jry {or PnL,lic Lancb.

HDn. R. PHILP: Y on r1icl not say ::.;o la-o:;t

\! r. I hax-r' sa.id :'O la.:-:-t It is -.,pend know

, :1~nt to Lv tho

f-Jn'-e'l:ns-

:\I r. 1\-. a.bJut the

BAn:-~FS: Yc•11 (1id not trnu1)lc ]a.11J dnrillg the ·election.

~Ir. BO\Y.\L\.::\: f >\ P \\"{'}'(' sitting {1!1 thf• th~Lt \\'U Q.'Oill!:.'. Oll.

of thi:-; pm~t:v ''"ho H:m. R. Pmr.r: Onl.v on{'--:\Tr. Hardacr~>.

..\l r. Jl0'1Y:'IL\K: Mr. Le iT! a. ,,.-o,s v0ry stron!..!!v a,Qain't it.

'Io~l.' n .. PHTLP: Oh, 11('.:-; ah<,·ay.:; n-.ain::.t t1lo (~OV{'TlJrlH'!lt. (Lunghtrr.)

).Jr. 130\\':JIA::\: I ro1ncmL{'~· v:}tcn the• lwn. !.:{~iitkman y;hn i-: }f'a.din(_,. t11i-;; l-{<F~~e at t1Jc• p;·c...;eJd :-:at i11 . ih0r<:' \v;:u1

rL ca.r hu il t--( v:r:. ~ think the prc C'llt Sp0aker fnr Rn.ihn1v.s, a.nd th0n' ';ya,:-; a. great ~tronL:,"" crit~cism indulg-od i11 al:out the~- expPn· ditnl'f' on that car. lt '':a.~ :"aid it \Va.~ alto­f.;:etlter ron BxpPnsiYc. I a. m not .cme "\Vho. i;'l ·t-rnnbled yen· much a.s tn Vi-·heilwr a Pn-'mH'r rides in a. mOtor car or not. buL I "~Sant t.() kno\v

Mr. Bowman.l

.no Supply . [ASSEMBLY . .J Supp1,1J.

what USD they are going to be devoted iD.

Are they simply for 1 he convenience of :\linis­ter;;; to pDp round Brisbane?

Hon. R. PHILP: The leader of the Opposi­tion can get one.

Mr. BOWMAN: The leader of the Opposi­tion does not want one. I think it is t'Xtrava .. -gant. I will g·uaranteB that if the late leader of the Opposition, the hon. m em her for Towm-ville, had gone homo on a trip like that. he would neYer haYe played the beggar on horseback the same as the Pren1ier has done. and brought two motor cars back. 1 have com!emned him in the past ami he desen-ec! it manv times, but I will give him that credit, I do not think he would go so far as tho Premier has done. I do not knmv what the price is; we have not even got that.

Mr. GRANT: £2,100.

:llr. DOW~IA::\: Does that include the freight 'i

.OHr. GRAXT: l don't know.

:\lr. BOVn.IAN: I think vou do not. We were told that the big car co~t £1,2.10, and by the time the car was landed it would pro­ha bly cost £1,700.

.Mr. NEYI1'T: l'vfade in Germany, too.

}fr. BO\\':\IA::\: At any rate, seeing is be­lieving. \\' e have seen one car bore, and >ve know v.·hat it is set down for at the pro,ent time. If those cars were going to lJ€ used by any of ihe departments, and would there­by render SC'n-ice to Queensland, there could be .-erv litUo to ca,-il at; but if thev arc g-oing to be kept purely for the conyei1ience of the Prc>mi,,r and distinguished visitors, and the hon. gentleman's colleagues sitting on the front bench, I strongly object to the expendi­ture of rnonpy in that rnaruH'r.

.\fr. .\IAKN: He nearly ran cloccn tl10 hon. lnenthC'r fr)r Balonnc the oth(·r day.

:\lr. BOWMAX: He tried to seduce' the llC'n. nwml"'l' t.o go into the car, but the hon. 1:10l11ber for nulonnc was not taking- anv. lif­Y:onld probably hG.\ c rnade a good.._ cartoon if lte had been abh to got him into the car, but thP hnn. rne;nb0r :-a1d that he~ preferred thP penny 1T_lill ruthc•r than the 1notor car.

:-dr. c\IUEY: S<?duction proof.

, ~'fl'. J_~O\Y~IA::\: There is another questi<>n t.n~:t [ u~cJ Y<'ry ::Jtrongly upon. ancl that is thr• 1nattcr of i1nrui<J,ration. I touch-ed on it on t.he _\ddress in R€ply, a.nd I do not propo~e to de hatE- lt tl1i .... a.ft·E'rJiOUJl a.nv rnore than Yd1at l_

saicl in n1y op~uing relnarks, tha.t. I think £_10.000 i:- altogether too rnuch to ha-re placed o11 t h<' Estimates. and that portion of that arr.oun t could be rnore Yvisc ly devote-cl to de­vclopnlcllt \.V{Jtk here in Qucen ... lancl. I trn~t that beforll Yery lon;; there will be an amicable .Sf~ttlernent of the financial relations l~.ehve.P.il the Commmnw'alth a.nd t.hc States. (llear. tl·C·ar :) I hope that the comtant b1ckerinF v hi eh has tak0n pla-ce betlvee-n the Sta.tf'" and the Comrnon \H'rrlth '"ill soon lw at a.n end. So fa.r a;; QU{'ens1aud i.s conc€rned) I thiuk that th{~ Cornnwn \Ycalt.h has treated her iu a Y€l':V

halld;;onw wav indef•d. Sh-r ha..., Ycrv litt]e to cnmpla.in of, ·a.nJ all I hope is ihat the year ''"'ill prOY<' eveu n1ore prosperous than i:' fore­oharloll'cd in the Financial Statenwnt bv the Treasurer. a11d that we rnay have a b'igger surplus tharr we had on the la~t occa~ion. \Yhether thev an• able to settle this n'attcr at the nrxt conff'r nee or not. n•rnains to L-e Sf'BIL

end whPthcr th(> F0dera.l fi\.!ht is g{Jing t.o l:e 1 etwC{'ll tho'-'c• vd1o are sittii;s.r on the C{JYern-1Pcnt. side of the IJou~e a.s a.g~inst thoi?e s;ttinL;·

[Mr. Bowman.

on this sidB, all I can say is that we are pre­pared to talw up the cndgels and fight for the Lubour party and its priuciples against those who are raising, to my n1ind, a pure hogey­camely, State rights 1·. the Commonwealth: 1 only hope that the present Federal Pnme .\!inister will long b, span;cl to hold the posi­tion he is honoured with to-day, and that he will lee the Premier the GoYemment will ha.-e to fid1t at the next election. ThB pres<?nt Pre1ni-er Y\'ould, perhaps, enj{\Y a fight. ,";·ith hin1 in pn•ff'Yt'llC€ io ~ome otber:-:; •d1o ha.Y'l .. held the position, but ]Je will find in .\Jr. Ei.shcr a man "\Vho is capa1llo of fighting, a Iran who has stood by Labour principles as 1n:cg as he ha,,-; bet'n identificc.d \Yith ~he Labour party. a.nd I think the people of (/ueensi~nd can lJe proud that he occupw-; such a r_wqtwn of trust a.-< that cf Ht{' Federal Pnme .\lnnster.

)Jr. GRA:<:T: He has to hold it by tho grace of Mr. DPakin.

:.\Ir. BOWI\IAX: It is through no one. The hon. member sits behind a -Premier that had to hold it by thu support of another party, and to-da v he is still there holdmg 1t by the sup­nor\ Z,f anothPr partv. and a dominating party, hccan~·e thc•y ure n~um~!~lcally strong c:no~gh to sirnply rr~oula the J->ren1iPr to any design thcv like. Ro that t.he hon member does _not nrl;d to sa,- <1n:·thing about the Federal Pnme :\finister ]wing- kept there by Mr. Dcakm. He kept J\Ir. Dcakin in poweT for a cons1derable time. and the Labour party got a good deal of useful legislation through tho Dcakm Go­VCJ'Jltncnt. Mr. Dteakin rccognisos tho help­meet he had in the lea,] er of the La hour rarty in the :Federal Parlianwnt, and ho lS Wllhf.Jg h gi.-e some assistance to him to pass the legls­latlon that is required.

OPPOSITION :\IE'.IIBERS: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR PllBLIC LAl\D.S (le-Ion. D. F. Jlerll1am, 0.•·/oi): ::O.Ir. 1\J.aughan,--

:.\Ir. }lAX:<:: \Vhere is the PrenJier?

The SECRETARYl"<JR PFBLICLAKDS ~ The criticisrn which the h_on. g-ent1e111an ha.s deli\''ered on the }i'inancial s~.aternent llll1~t he regarded. as nwst generow.:, aiJd tr.1ere \VA..S little of a pa.rty natnre in it. He haa clu•Jly ar~dr~s;ect himstlf to the queshnn of the rehtwmlup (), ohe Stnt.e tow,rd,; the Commonwealth, and lTl i11~t I think he is slightly under a misapprehensiOn. There is no a.ntagnnisn1 to the Commonwf<t1th.

::\Ir. BO\DHX: Oh, dear; oh, dear! and Op­po.-3ition laughter.

The SECRETARY FOR Pl;BLIC LA)."JJS: \Ve all recognise that we are part nf rt great Comnwnwealth, and whPther w8 tegar.d t~e.. con­tract aR '"1. good one or bad one for the Individnal St>etes there is little or no donbt wh-tte.-er that the G:mmonwealth, as established is established for all time.

:\lr. BowJLtX : IIear, hear ! Long n1ay it reign.

The SECRETARY }'OR PUBLIC LA::-<DS: There i~ no earthly reason why the St 1.te;"' ;-;hould allow tbe CumnlCJuwealth tu he .so don11nant as to drive us into a position which js iniurical to our best intereHt.s.

:\Ir. 130\Yl\!AX: Ha\'8 they been dominant'!

:\Ir. HARIUC!lE: \Vlwre's the Premier:

The SECRETARY FOR PFBL 1C LA::\llS : It wa..; said by a prominent n1ernber of the Federal Labour party, two or thr_ee years ag-o, that their object and aim was to dnve the States into direct taxation. \Ye know very well--

Supp1_1'. [7 DRCEMllEll.] Supplp. 411

J\Ir. BmniAX: The Federal Parliament has got the power of introducing direct taxation if they so wioh,

::\1r. HARDACRE : \Vho made that statement you referred to'!

J\Ir. iYIAXN : \Vhat ahout tbe cow tax?

The S1£CRETARYJWR PUBL1C LANDS: Ye,, I kuow the Federal P"rliament have that power; bnt there i'l no juRtific"~tion for the intro­duction of direct 1 axation. But thPy are work­Ing now tiO aR to drive the Rt::1Jte:-; into the nece~'-'­Rity of irnpooin~ direct taxation. \Ve entered into the Federal cornpact--

JYir. HARIHCRE: You have not told us who 1nade tbat statement. Let ns see if it i~ authori­tative.

Hon. R. l'HILP : The hon. member for Flinders said it.

The SECRETAHY FOrt PUBLIC LANDS: \V e entered into the federation ov,·ing to the silver-tongued persuasions of rnany ou.ttors-­

:\Ir. IlOWllfAX: The hon. member for Towns­vil!e was one of the silver-tongued orators on that occasion.

Hon. R. PHILP: They >tte driving towards a land tax.

The CHAIR:\:IAN: Order, order!

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: ::\ly statement regarding the imposition of a land tax has been answerer! hy the leader--

}fr. BOWl\L\:'-1 : Ye~, the leader of your party. (O!Jposition lang-hter.)

The SEORETAHY FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: By the hon. tlleUJ ber for Townsville.

Mr. HARD.-'.CJHE: \V here was this statement 1nade?

The SECRETARY FOR PlTBLIC LANDS: It ~-vas n1ade in thi~ city tu a leading meruber of this Chamber.

:\Ir. HARDACRE: A private conversation. Hon. R PH!LI': You will find it in Hansctt·d.

The SECH.ETARY FOR PUBLTC LANDS: The object of the Federal Labour party, as inrli­cated hy th"t lHm. g-ent.leman, is to drive the St:.atPs into the hnpot~ition of direct taxation, and particularly in the matter of a land to.x.

Mr. HARDACRE: That is not authoritative. The SECRETARY J;'OI{ PUBLIC LAKDS :

.l\Ir . .i\Iaughan,-\V ill you allow rne to ]'roceed with 1ny remarks without having this running connnent frorn hun. n1en1bt'rs oppo:-<it.P. The,y ._tre not interjections, but they are n1aking run­ning ccnnments.

The CHATR:\1A~ : Order ! I must aek hon· member~ to refrain frcnn making running conr ml2ntg while an hon. rnernber is speaking. rrhe hon. ID ern ber dof's not object to ordinary inter­jections, but there should not be running com­ments.

:.Ur. J\1Ax:\': I onlv asked him abont the cow tax. ·

Hon. R. Pfi!LP: You eYidently get the cow vote..-.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAi'IDS: \Vith regard tu the interjection of the hon. mem­ber for Cairm, I may say that the tax on dairy cattle in order to cover cost of adn1inistration was vnt on, but I would now like to see that tax abolished.

GovEllN>IEXT :iYIEii!BEHS : Hear, hear ! :\Ir. JENKINSOX: There was never any necessity

fur it at all. The SECRETARY l,'OH PUBLTC LANDS:

Had the leader of the Opposition drawn attention tu the enorrnous increaHe in expenditure and dis­cussed the apparent extravagance- shall I call it

-of the }~stimates, then I would ha ,.e understood that he had something to ~o np<,n, but he has attacked th~~ GovfTnment on other ground"-·, I again aver that it is not in the mind pf the Government, nor those who haYe formed the con1bined party, to go uut on an onslaught of FPderal affairs, but to defenJ our State riqht.s, so that when JJecemher, lUlO, comes--and the Brarldon clausH, if not arranged b~7fure then) tnay be discontinued-see whrether there shrdl be some rnea,f<.ure of protPction to the ~tate8 in regard to the revenue rlerivable from Customs.

:\Ir. McLLAN: Didn't Kidston say be was going to beat the. Labour men?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXDS: I arn not concerned about the Labonr party or any other party.

?.Ir. BO\nrAN : You are anti-Labour all the time.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LASDS: I arn con earned :1 bout defending our State rights, so that we may know the lines on which '.'8 may base our expenditure and estimate our revenue.

Mr. HAIWACHE: \Ve are entirely with you there.

The SECRE'l'AHY }'OR PUl\LIC LAXDS: \Ve have no quarrel with regard to ]'erleral affairs.

Mr. ,T. ]\f. HFNTER: Then why all this talk?

TheSECilETAHYFOR PUBLIC LAXDS: If the Opposition will help us in defending the States againtit any undue a.ggre..,s:ion in regard to our finances, then qnely we are at one.

2\lr. ,J. l\I. HUNTEI\: There is no aggression. Mr. JYicLACHLAX: Give us the line of conten­

tion you in tend to take u v '? The SEClU:TARY FOR PFBLTC LAXDS:

X ow New South \Vales has bene·fited ;-ery much und~r the Tinanc!a.l scherne of federation.

J\Ir. BmDIAN: \V by? The SE CH ET AR Y FOR PUBLIC LAKDS:

And Queensland h:ts not benefited. Mr. BmnrAX : Why'! The SECRETARY }'OR PUBLIC LAXDS:

l\Iy opinion is that if we ball been on onr own, and if we were in the position to-day of shaping our own financial position, we would be Yery much better off. I have ahntys been opposed to federation, RO that thE--re is n(l change of front in that matter so iar as I am concerned; cut if we weff' "on our own" we v;ould be in a diAtinctly .superior position to wh:1t we are in to-day.

GOYER:X.L\lE~'l' 11E1\fBERK: Hear, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS: I recognise that some embargo rnight have been put cm uB with regard to the sngar indn;:-;try and that some tariff may have been made against us ; but the key to the situation lay in the lmncls of (~ueensleond, and, unfortunately, Rhe gave that key over, ancl the Cmumonwealth wa., e"tab· lis bed.

1\Ir. \V. H. BAR:o;EH: There would have been no federation with<·Ut Qutensland.

The SECHET ARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS : If Queenoland had been on her own tu-day we would be in a much better position than \H rrre at the prrsent tin1e. llowever, "it it3 no use crying over sptlt milk." \Ve have entered the federation, and the only thing for us to du is to make the hest of things.

J\Ir. LRNNON: Yon would have had no sugar industry to-day but for the federation.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:'\DS 'l'he friction that has taken place has hPen kept t-:imn1ering by the inro:@:1.-; made on our finan~est and there is every justification in the State

Hon. D. P. Denham.]

412 Supply. LASSEMBLY.] Suppf,y.

Premiers making one more attempt FO as to evolve a scheme which may be agreeable, nnt merely to the independent States, but also to the Common weal eh as well.

OPPOSITioS ME~fBERS : Hear, hear !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : The bon. gentleman leading the Oppn-ition is in error in anticipating that we are ont after the scalps of the Federal members. . l\fr. Bow~rAN : I tpok your leader's word for rt.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I understand the r'osition to be this: It is a case of banding together to ensure fair t.re,.tment to Queensland, and to impress the idluence of Queensland in her representation by the Com­monwe~lth that may involve direct opposition to those of the Labonr party who are not ready to ensure a fair deal under the finances of this State.

Mr. HARDACRE: It may involve opposition to those Oll your side.

The SECRETARY :FOR PUBLIC LANDS: What we want ie a continuation of the Braddon clause. It was looked upon one time us a blot, but it has been practically our salvation, and if the Braddon el"use can be continued we shall be quit" happy. Our expenditure is increasmg, of COl\rSP. Look "t the bi,; jump there has been in the expendJture in the last two or three years! The charges are growing in respect to police, in respeet to soho(_)l:-;, and in respect to the various serv1res, altogether apart frmn the big- itPrns in relation tn old~age pen)::ions, with which no member of this House disagrees. During the debate on the Address in Reply, it was again and again claimed by members opposite that it was they who caused tiH' original Bill t•> be withdrawn, aud a remodelled Bill to he reintro­duced. Hansct>·d will show that those who occupied the Oppn.sition benches at th>tt time urgently pointed out t hfl effect that measure would have, and urged that it be remodelled.

Mr. BowMAN : So did we.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do not think that any member or any party can claim any ~pecial prerogative in respE:'Ct to the introduction of humane legislation and in­dustrial legislation. I think that every fair­minded man in this House is always prepared to a8sist~, not rnere1y in pasHing such legi~da­tion, hut to help the State in industrhtl legisla~ tion nnd make it more progres,ive than it is. Ifow are we g-oing to possibly meet our recurring 1iahl1ities un1e~s we mikf) the ind us­trial ::'~nd producin~ interests of the StatH f-:0

rrosperous as develop tl::is great country? I ha,d hoped the hon. member would refer to tha" paragraph in the }"inancial Statement which deals with the introdnction of a Loan Bill. That j,, an item th1et he m;,-;ht have dwelt upon; but, as he has to pai-.s it oVP';_' in silence, I conclude that is in perfect unison with the Govf:'rnment as to the nFce.-::sity fnr carrying out great p1J blic worke::, n.nd he knows that ~Such \Vork;;: cannot he nut unless \Ve find the money with do it.

:;ur. Bow:llAl'l: I am not in favour of a policy of ''Burro;.'-', boom, and burst."

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAXD8: Neither is any member· of this Chamber, and the allegat.ions in r.be past in reg,.rd· to that h8 ve been largely talk. Bnt what is thE• foundation of our presMt prosperity? The loan.> we raised yeare ago, which have enabled the railway" to be built and the people to be brought here.

GoVERNMEt<T MEMBERS : Hear, hear!

The SECRE'l'ARY FQJ:t PUBLIC LANDS: The large increase which has taken place in our

[Hon. D. F. Denham.

revenue is due mainly to the railways which have been built. The hon. member in his open­ing remarks marvelled at the low estimate of revenue last ye11r as compared with the actual rt.>sults. Now, I a.m sure he i2. aware of the pro· cedure that is u&ually adopted. The varion.< de­P"rtments furnish the Treasurer with an estimate of the revenue fur the ensuing year; and it would be very unwise, when an officer of a department -who is supposed to have special knowledge of matters of this sort-brings his estinrate of the revenue for the forthcr,ming year to the Trea­surer, if the latter refused to accept it. The Treasurer may diecuss it with him; may, per­haps, try to show him that it is either too little or too much ; but, after having discussed it and detennined what the figures arP, then tbe Trea· surer has very wisely to abide by them. So it is that in three items the revenne was greatly above the estimate on which the last }"inancial Statement was forecact. The Commonwealth gave us back £60,958 over the previous year's returns, which was more th>>n was estimated by the Federal Treasurer himself by £53,973. In lands, owing to the active land settlement, there was a larger sum deriYed from that source of £43,070. The railways shone out above all with £117,412, so that the Pstimate of revenue wa~ ont-not wil­fully, but happily-because of the abounding pro::;perity of the State. lt is very interesting indeed to turn to 7 of the Financial State-ment. I am not to weary the Committee with figures. I not the least intention of speaking, but I have no difficulty in following the leader of the Opposition in the lucid way in which he has deaft with various matters, and because there are a few things to which I desire to reply with regard to the lands. I am sure it is a matter of congratulation to every hon. mem­ber to see the list enumerated on page 7. In the whcle list there are substantial increases, with the exception of a slight diminution in the values of minerals of some £60,000; and I am glad to that there is a recovery at the present in tl:l'a,t direction also. The hon. nwmber complained that the measnre of as~i--tane:e which is to be given to Uiiniug interests in the coming year is not as great aH was anticipated. The hon. member for Cier­rnont was good enough to interject that there was no definite promise made in respect of the £i50,000; and the ne.wspaper reports of the in­terview in the adjoining l\1ini8ter'H romn bear out that str.tement. vVhat the Government have done i.s to provide a sum of £17,000 in excess nf the anwunt voted for the previous year. That must be admitted to be a very sub­stantial increase; and it is well fc•r us to go slow in rnat.ters that are experimental. Some hon. member a few ago asked for a return showing the in aid of deep sinkinQ". That return the substantial snrn of £2,825 was to various companies, the total amount in prospecting being £3,112. r.rhe nan1eB of companies are there given, Rhowing· that tbe past year, gt 1:1ny rate, the Government not been Iegarclleso of the big mining industry.

Mr. MAXWELL: Thai; is during the last five months.

Mr. LE:-: NOX: Half as much as they spent on motor cars.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I do r::ot. know about the arnount spent on rnotor cars; but re.1lly I b~!ieve that, when the final aceount is m:M1e up, the amount spent in sPtting up the refetence; in Hansard to the motor cars will eqnal, if it does uot exceed, the original cost of the cars. (Laughter.) As there is su~h an evident desire to lessen expenditure, it might be well for hem. members to refrain from dwelling

Supplp. [7 DECEMBER.] Suppl,y. 418

upon the motor car~. I have :;;een one o( the carH, but up to the present time I hP~\·e not bad the pleqsnre of riding in it. The leader of the Oppositinn .')poke in Yery appreciative tenns of the prugreRs made in land f(ettlmnent ; and it is gratifying to know t.h<1t nearly every day I have the pleasure of interviewing rnen of an excellent type, not unly fron1 onr own Sta.te, but fron1 Jtber C\lunl;rie.-.. This rnorning l had a long

interviP\V with a, geutlem[Lll from Stmth Africa, whn had gone to Xe\V Zl-drtnd for the expre8s pnrp!)Re of ~electit1g land. lie failed to get what he wr_-:,nted, and 1 having hit~ attention, while there, directed to Queensland, he came to this Sr·rte, mru I am quite sure we shall get l1in1 and hi-; frirnd~ tn con1e herP. On re'l.Cling th:• reports of the are~t~ of land tba.t are nnd that will be aviiiL.ble in Qneeu~b.nd, we are siuJJilv amazed at the (shall I use a hackneyed phrase'!) "potentialltie of the State." l Hee the hon. Iuenlber for l3undaber.~ imnwdiakly f1rightening up, becRn,--.;e his ruinri i~ diverted to thP BuriJett 8ountry) to the ]Jaigangal and Rawbelle [lreaR; and I may te!.l him at once that I have reacl the comn1i~.siOner's report upon those area'::, and it reads more likf,. a roma.uce th11n an ordinary official report of a Crown lanlh> cmnmis~ioner. Apart from the mao-nificent character of the soil, he refers to tlw ~re.1t wealth of timber that is there. \Ye want lm1n money in order to build a railway to that country ii·om \Volca, or what­ever point is considered the wisest and best. I think \\.'8 have ilniTH·1nse prospects before us. OQr difficulty hos been in the way of re· sumption. F~very hon. member knows that the big areas of our country are held under pastoral leas8, upon which we have a phiodical resump­tion; and that :;;tands in our way smuetirne~, as compared with Canada, where they have a free and open territory. They can go straight ahead, while we have m"ny difficulties to meet-and we are meeting them. First of all, there are the resumptions to undertake ; then we have so to contour onr land as to make the best of our watPr. But I can assure hon. rnembers we are strenuously moving in that direction, and that the.re is no scarcity of land ; but a sufficient number of surveyors is not available at the pre­sent. It it-l our intention, and our business, to be ready to meet the demand as it comes along.

~Ir. ,J, l\1. HUNTER: There is no scarcity of applicants either.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The leader of the Opposition dwelt somewhat fully upon the discrepancy between the revenue from pastoral lea'lebolds and the revenue frc.m grazing farms. I shall have an opportunity later on-probably on the Lands Estimates, if no previous opportunity presents itself-of analysing the figures closely, and of advising the hon. member with respect thereto. But I would just remind him that the Lands Department has no control, or no say, in fixing the rents of pastoral leaseholds. The Land Court does that entirely. But in regard to grazing farms the rent is fixed by proclamation, and tenders are invited. Lctnd may be proclaimed open at 1d. an acre, but the actual rent is fixed by applicants themselves, so that there is a greater revenue coming in from grazing farms, proportionately, than from pas­toral holdings.

Mr. BoWMAN : In some cases in the Dalby district they are charging 6d. an acre.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:i\DS: They tender the price.

Mr. BoWMAN : h it a hir thing?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It is a question of their tendering. Very often tenders come in in excess of the proclamation price, and it is possible that some people, in

their eagerness to acquire land, 1na.y off_,"r too rnuch, but, with the exception l!f the f"_r ~nuth­

west1 there hm; been praetically no lG.:)O p. m.] thr(l\',.·illg np of grazing farm~, and

I hope t.lw~e who have lH--Jd on have rnade thmn pay. rrhe ont--;tandin~ fea,ture id that tbP de}Jartil18Ht has 110 Cr)(j tT\)1 OVel' paFl­

tora} rentR, but has control with re.>vect to grazing fanns.

:i\[r .• J. JI.L Ht::-.1TEH: Do you fa\·onr a c•m· tin nation of that annn1aly?

The SECRETARY I< OR PUBLIC L,\XDS: I wonld remind the hon. member of the great sensation that followed the il'·UC of the report of the department fur lDO~, when the F nder Secre­tary referred to the position. At page 7 of that report hem. members will find this-

! propose now. 1)_r way of justification of tlle deehdon tu appeal, to state the outstanding fcatnl'es of a few CLI.f.lP::i ill wllidl the evidc:Iee sc~Piw-;d ovPnYlwlmin;{ that the rentals tixed by tbe J,aud Court were too low, having re7,ard to tl1e :tuestion that the f;upre!lle Court h:1d declnrod to be tlJc m:tin factor in determining rents­viz., the demand for similnr land in the loC','~Ilt~r. ·In the Xorlry and Tllargomindab cases the Supreme Court hadhti(1 it down'' that the true rule is t.lmt the rent is to be assessed at suell a sum as a. tenant mig;llt reason­ably be expeetcd to give for the holdil1g, bayin.~ rt.Jard to the length of tenure and all the circum~t:,ucos of the CaSe. . . rl'he QUP.sti.On is, "'hat iS the :clYerage opinion of pcrwn,-;; conversant with the busim-<:<s? 'ro which the rent which they are in actual experience found to be prepared tu yay would ordinarily furnish the be;:;t answer."

It is to be borne in mind that the pastnralist is subject to a periodical resumption and revision of his rent, and that no doubt is a factor in tbs mind of the court in determining the rental; buc there is the outstanding fact that where we reviewed the rents derivable from the grazing rights they have greatly exceeded the rents pre· viously received for those ar~-'as as pastora.l hold­ings. But there is the law, and we have to administer the law as we find it. \Ye exercise our powers of ree.umptinn every time t be corn· n1is.05ioner recommends it, ancl sometin1es if he does not recommend it we send it back for further in vestig,tion.

Mr. KERR: Not always.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: No ; but I say we often send it back to be reviewed. For a period of years there was a vast area of land in Queensland that was abandoned. Large areas of this abandoned country are being taken up, and I hope that those who are ventur­ing into those areas may meet with a large mea­sure of success. (Hear, hear!) Pastoralists are no doubt the pioneers of the \Vestern country, and timber-getters in the coastal districts; and I don't think it becomes us to carp at the prosperity attending their efforts during the past two or three years. At the same time, the interests of the State "re to be put absolutely first, and wherever there is land that can be resumed for the purpose of close settlement we take ad­vantage of it every time; and in order to make some of those areas a.vaila.ble and profitable -which they are not at the present time by reason of the lack of water-we are putting down artesian and subartesian bores. I think we are justified in incurring considerable ex· penditure in sinking for water, so that not only may land be leased, but that when it is leased the lessees may be able to occupy it with profit. I am not more concerned about getting men on the land than r am about knowing that when they are on the land they will have an oppor­tunity of succeeding.

Mr. J. M. HUNTER: '\Ve want to keep them there.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: To drive men away from the land is a very bad

Hon. D. F. Denham.]

414 Suppl,y. [ASSEMBLY.J Supply.

thing. I know what the hon. member for l\Iar•noa may be thinking about. If you had an estate of your own to manage you would act on a Ci1rtain line of conduct; but when one is a trustee, w to speak, :tnd the mind nf the Legi,[atnre is indicated in the laws, we must be careful tu administer theme laws as accurtttf-~ly as possible, always with a sympathetic administra­tion; but we ~an not go outside the law.

Mr. J. l\I. HUNTER: You have not interpreted my mind in the slightest.

The SEORETARYFORPUBLIO LANDS: I thought you were referring to the priority clauses you referred to in your 'peech the other evening when de.1ling with the Agricultural Bank.

Mr .. J. :\I. HcNTER: No.

The SECRETARY :B'OR PUBLIC LANDS: Settlement io going on apace not only on the coast but abo inside, and everything that can be done to expedite it will be done; and every­thing that can be done to give a wan oppor­tunities to win prosperity, su that be can con­tribute to Our revenue by income tax and by sending goods to the rail way, will be done, because, apart front our producing interest~, we shall ln11k very strange in the face of our expanding expenditure. The leader of the Op­po8,itioll, after speaking- some time on the 1natters to which I have already referred, mentioned the sugar induHtry, and said wh,tt a debt of grati­tude we were under to the Corrnnonwealth bv rea>;on of the manner in which they had handler! the !-Ugar industry; and he appeared to rep-arcl the bonus paid in 'cveral years as an eYidence of the excellent mode of h<mdling the industry. The hon. gentleman scarcely need' reminding, however, that the producer pays a £4 excise and gets a c.t::i bonus.

l\Ir. J\IAXN: The consumer pays a higher price for his sug-ar.

The 81WRETARYFOR PUllLIOLA:NDS: Yes; and the same thing might be reached by abolishing excise and bmms, and by having the import duty rrwintajned. I know that as l~mg-aR there is an exci~e and ::t bonus there is control as to the wages being paid.

0PPOSlTIO>l 1\IllMBEllS: Heccr, hear!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: But in the f!rand issue the law of supply and demand would have secnred an equally good wage for the man in the canefielcl apart from this heavy tax on his industry.

OPPOSITION ilfE~IBE!lS: No, no!

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAl\DS: There is £1 a ton for w hicb he dues not receive value. Of conrse, this is a matter entirely in the hands of the Commonwealth, and will remo,in so. There is not the least question that nobody ever thinks about a coloured or a partially coloured Australia; and the object of thi' Government is to assh;t--

::\Ir. RYLAND: Cheap labour.

The SEORJ,~TARY FOR LANDS: No; to secure for us a white Australia that will be effective and will be permanent. According y, in orrler that the sugar workers on the coast lands may become permanent residents, not merely visitors to Queensland for the harvest, and going south to spend their earnings-in order that we may retain then1 as perrnanent residentH of Queensland, the Government arc giving the closest attention to this feature-namely, back from the coast there are highlands-not far from the coast either-and it will be the business of this Government to give access to these high­lands-to cut them up into uch blocks that men may cultivate them for a portion of the year,

[Hon. D. F. Denham.

and give the baLwce of the year to cutting cane on the coast. It will be "'b a high el~vation, so that they can recover their physicctl Fmergies.

l\fr. RYLAND: A summer residence.

The SECHETARY FOR PUBLIU LANDS: Yes, a summer residence, where the wives and children may develop and become robusc, and when the period comes round for cane-cutting, they can go down into the fields.

Mr. BowMAN : It is all in the future.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It is not all in the future. I appeal to the ban. member fur Herbert, who knows the action we are taking- at the present time.

Mr. LENNON: I highly approve of it.

The SECHETAHY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: There is a district at the back of lngham. 'Ve are going to make tbat land available. 'What for'? ~ot mert--ly because it i.s a large area of rich, fertile lands that may admini,ter to the prosperity of the State, but as much for the pur­pose of making it available for those who are cutting cane during tho harvetiting period, and who will have a nieo climate to which to rt'sort when the cane-cutting period is over.

l'rir. ::\lANX: Q,wnot you try and persuade sowe of the big sugar-growers to cut up the-ir estatt~ so that the men can h~ve land adjacent to tile mill''?

An HoNOL'JtABLE ::\{R,mF.H: The Seaforth :Estate.

TheSEORETARYFORPlJBLIO LAKDS; It may very much astonish that bon. member if he he .• r.• the Scaforth 1,;state introduced into this Charnber in an e£rne8t n1anner, for the }JUr}Jo:-.f' of making it a real live asset to the State. All things cm:ne to those who wait. \Ve have waited a long time, awl we think, in all probability, this Government will be able to show tho.t the Sea­forth EsttttE• may become "' factor in the pros­perity of the St.ate.

l\Ir. MunPHY: Are you going to raffle it?

'l'he SEORETAltY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Hon. members will therefore see that we nre quite alive to rnaintain. what ~s knnwn as "'~.r~ite Australia" by making 1t possible for men hvmg in tropical Queensland to have every advantage.

lYir. 1\fA~N: Out up the large sugar estates.

'rl.eSEORETARYFOR PUBLIC LANDS: That is an abstract question. I do not know the estates to which the hon. member refers; but we have tbe Rta.tute-·honk on '\1.rhich to rely. That can be brought into furce; there is no doubt about that. If there are any large estates locked up, there are powers for re[Jurchasing them.

Mr. liARDACRE: 'Vill you introduce another land monopoly tax ?

The SECRE'l'ARY :B'OR PUBLIC LANDS: No. I do not care for that. (TJauf{hter.) As a matter of fact, that became unnecessary because the finances of the State ha; e adjusted them­selves. \Vhat have the Government done in the last few years? They have been reducing· taxa­tion. T·hcy would not have been justified in imposing fresh taxation. I am sorry the finances do not permit an adjustrnent in a tax of a very specid character-a very class character. I refer to the stamp duties. Our stamp duties in Queensland are altogether out of line with tl1e other States·.

Mr. LENNON : They have a land tax in the other States, too.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The hon. member is an old financier, and surely he can appreciate this point: That we are not justified in taking from the pockets of the tax­payer more than is actually required to meet the

expenses of the State. Last year the inciclence of the income tax was modified, and I regret this year we find it impossible to effect a considerable .re­duction in the special form of taxat10n whJCh comes under the head of stamp duties. New South \Vales and Victoria have effected con­siderable reductiom in that respect, and when a tin1e of prosperity con1es round, or circumstances admit I have no doubt that an adjustment will be m;de in that way, too. The hon. member considers that the Federal authorities can ad­rninister the old~age pensions mote efficaciously~­more satisfactorily-than this State. I. am en­

at variance with him there. \Ve have our statute-book, as admitted by the

a most generous form of old-age pensions. It in operation -very effective operation has run into £133,000 a year, and the end is not told. We have all thB machinery at our command) and it is adrnitted there has been no delay in putting it into opera­tion. It has been admitted it works smoothly. Of course there arH some applic:;.tions held in

pending but, on the whole, how been granted, it

been very promptly :lealt with--

because machinery to de>tl with it.

l\Jr. LENNON I know has been undne delay~ver:y gr:~at

with the not the

'l'he SECRETARY :B'ORJ'UBLTC LAKDS: Itcannotbearguedfor have machinery like as we have in will the to

will it take the money out pocket and put the other pocket?

Mr. LEXNON : The Commonwealth is a better scheme in sorne respects.

The SJ;-:CHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It is quite true they the pension five years younger. In fact, onro not a good scheme. I ' at one in meeting the needs of the

but I think there is a far better with the matter-and I should

to see introduced-and that is something in nature of inf'urance~ so that the rnen and women would not think they <'re coming to the Sta.te for grace, but aR a matter of right,

]\Ir. BoWMAN: It is a matter of righb now.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: As " matter of inherent right. It is all very well to se~y it is a matter of right. I eay the only clairn is need, and when you put a restriction of five years for this and five years for thl! other, the gTeat thing is the need, Hon. members know quite well that there have been instances where men have wasted their sub-stance. I grant that never had any great substance to waste, but have wasted theu substance, and they are very much horrified to find that within two or three years since squan­dering their income, theJ: are debarred from >haring in the old-age pensions.

Mr. BowMAN : 'fhe~t is a hardehip.

The SECRETARY :B'OR PUBLIC LAI\DS: I perfectly grant i,t, bu~ that i~ thP; law, and the hon. member assiSted m passmg 1t. I contend the system in operation in Belgium and other continental countries is calculated to develop ·the nobility of manhood and womanhood to a greater degree than the State system.

Mr. LENNOX: There is a greater stability of .employment there-employment is very fitful in Queensland.

The SECRJi~TARV FOR PUBLIC LANDS: It will ensure greater stability of employment.

415

In that both the e1nployer and the em· ployee to the fund, and the Govern-ment supplement it.

l\fr, LENNON: Don't you think the Queens! an 1 system is more generous than the Belg1an?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I think it is more generous; but I do not think that the way to build up a country is to let people realise that they can be improvident, and yet receive a pension in their old age. I know that there are people who are indu~triom~ and thrifty, and who do their best, and I admit that a. nutn with a sn1all wage cannot bring up a family and at the same time make adequate pro­vision fur his old age as the law stands at pre­sent but I think it would be better for

if, by, a >mall contribution "f 2d. or per week, they could a retiring allowance for therntielves of their of want, because then allowance would their::;

right. But this from the point. hon. member aver that the

when he

Mr. RYLA~D: That is retained under the Braddon clause.

The LANDS: The hon. I hope, go solidly with the this matter, and assist them to se cur~ the retention of the Brad don clause. 'l'hen the :B"ederal Government can tP.ke

over and above the threE> fourths. and earma.rk for old-age penNions, or defen~e! or anything ehe they de.~dre. It cannot be averred that the Premier or the Treasurer, Jn any remarks they have 1nade, have shown a spirit of antagon~ ism towe.rds th~ Commonwealth. They have clone nothing of the kind. They have merely said that the State must ::::et its House in order, and see that at the expiration of the Braddon in 1910, we shall have something in the nature a certainty in 1egard to revenue frorn Custmns.

Mr. HARDAOTIE : le the proposal of the Go­vernment to insist upon the perpetuation of the Braddon section ?

The SECRETA RV FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I will be perfectlv honest with the hon. member. I am not a,ware that the Government have dis­cussed the question at all.

Mr. RYLAND: They only find fault with it; that's alL

The Sl<~OR}JTARY :B'OR PUBLIC LANDS : No ; is not the case. \V e recognise the danger the situation, but if I said that in the brief space of three or four weeks, with all the pressure of work that ie on the departments, we could g0 into a question like that and calmly discue~ it, I should be misleading the hon. mem­ber. I honestly tell him, therefore, that. it has not been discussed by the Government. But my own view is that if we could retain the Braddon section in perpetuity we should be perfectly satidied with that ftrrangement, as it would give us some measure of security. As to the public est.ate improvement fund, I am really sorry

Hon. D. F. Denham.]

416

"'-4.n HoNOURABLE ::V1E:'\IBEH: It

exa.ggera-been to get it

checked. was that by the for­mation of a short road of 4 miie., leading towards a railway we should unlock an area containing 30,000,000 feet of timber over which there were no cutting rights, so that, apart frorn the unlocking of that timber and pul ting it on the market, a magnificent source of revetm3 to the departme11t would be prmided. And it w~s stated that all this could be done by an expenditure of £500 or £1,000. It would be bad business if we did not lay hold of such a proposition every time, every day, and every hour in the week, when it came along. I ehould not hesitate for a mornent to say "Yes" in such a case, even if only half the statement were verified. The hon. member for Cairns seemed to think that we would not do the same thing for Atherton. I can assure him that such is not the case. A year or two ago, before tbe public estate improvement fund, came into operation, some men in that district selected, and are in distress because they have no road to the rail way. A good wide track is needed so that the sun and air may penetrate and dry the road. Last week I met the chairman of the local·sbire council, and I pointed out to him that under the public estate impr<wement fund, if a territory is being opened up and settled, we make a road to the land, but that his block was dealt with before the opemtion of the public estate improvement fund. I said, however, that I was perfectly prepared, if the group settled there is agreeable to pay the price of making the road-we are ready to make the road and add to price of land spread over twenty years. I would make the public estate improvement fund retrospective. What fairer could I say than that?

[Hon. D. F. Denham.

Mr. l'vfANN ~Mjnister for nothing has been done yet.

The SEOHJLTARYJi'OR I 1;olc1 the chairman that by the mo.il letter

[7 p.m.] the fund can back on thB expenditure

estate for the profitable PrrmlnvrrH>nt. of people.

Vlhat about the Eungella road

'l'be SECRETARY ~FOR PUBLIC LAKDS: The Eungella road has been completed. I learnt on Saturday for the first time that they have spent on that road twice as much as the original amount contemplated.

Mr. KENNA: You will never get a billy-go&t cart over it.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: As to the actual sum, that is a matter I cannot for a moment say. I am talking about the past. The hen. member for Herbert says that is a bargain. I assure hon. members that it may be a bargain as far ·as any proposition tbat is brought before me.

Mr. LENNON: It was a good-tempered inter­jection.

Mr. KENNA : You are not responsible for any body else.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : If there is any portion of the public estate upon which expenditure of the public money by the making of roads and bridges leading to unopened or resumed land requires that expenditure, the amount so expended can be spread over the land and recovered thereby, and the land opened and improved, I say we should do it every time-not merely in relation to roads and bridges, but also· in relation to the finding of water.

Mr. KENNA: Not spending £3,000 in climb­ing up to the moon as they did at Eungella, to create a sanatorium.

The S!i:ORETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: Climbing to a great area of good country.

'l'heSECRETARYFOR PUBLIC LANDS: It is very terrestrial; I hope to find it more material before it is finished.

Mr, KENNA: I will have a good deal to say about it before it is finished.

The SECRETARY FORPUBLIOLANDS: There has been a very big in.crease in the pros­perity of the State, and with it has been a very largely increased expenditure. Apart from the salary in'creases, which have already been en­d.lrsed by hon. members, there have been sums

Snpply. [i DECEMBER.] Supply. 417

expended which are referred to in pages 10 and 11 of the Financial Statflment, and which I need not now <-t!..!,'ain refer to. I will, however, ju~t draw to the last schedu1e on l-lage 12,

elted ::ctli~t of new services, or in~ litul'e on old seTvices Bince 1904-5,

:mlllS l>elnvv £0,000, anrl that totals up t•l hi; ;:;<ll11 of .£8GH, 744. I think hon. 1uernberd \Vill adtnit that every iten1 there has bJen ~vith their concurrence. The only iten1 that I camwt e:<)Jlain-and as I had no intention uf 8pealdng to-night, I haYe not b3en able to look iL up-bhe itern which, perhaps, does not c 1rrry with it true rel::ttion in value-is thA £22,84lJ spent in la1v and justice. There has been a large expenditme on that account, and I can only hope the State has received value.

.Mr. LENNO:l: Is that the .Timbonr matter?

The SECRETARY FOH. PUBLIC LA::\'DS: Df o, that is not included.

l\Ir. LENNOX: 1)o yon approve uf the adver~ tieing expenditure? Have you got value for thac 1nuney, judging by the illustration;:; the other evening?

TbeSECRETARYJWR PUBLICLAK.DS: Ye:-;, we h~tve <t big amount of advE'rtising to do in regard to land rru:ttters, and every other que:::tion th~Lt is bound to bP advertised for pnblic lnforrnati\)n. 1 wnnld rQmind the hon. member th2.i:. therp ]-., out' itmn therG t•) \Vbich smnenne drew !:LLtAntlon at the tirne, and thnt wa3 tbe ad verti,;ing· in relation t•J the electoral rolL l{o,vever, I think lt \vill be generally admitted that, however large the call for previou.:; expendia tura has been, it has been incurred with the concurrence, generally speaking, of the Hoase.

Mr. LEXXON: This is advertising the State­not departmental adverti.,ing.

The SECRETARY lWR PUBLIC LANDS: I think we have done too little of that. From what we bear, Canada is doing- a great deal more advertising than we are) and, if WA are to get tbs full benefit of the Franco-Briti'h Exhibition, we shall have to continue along these lines. Now, as long as the season" are good, there is n~turally a desire to increase expenditnre, and I woulcl like to draw attention to the last pe.ragraph of the Financial Statement. There iR a warning note sonuded there. :Practically, the House is asked to call a halt for a time on the line of expell'liture.

JI.Ir. LEXXOX: That shnulrl have been audressed to the hon. 111emher for D&lby.

The tiECltET~\.RY _FOR F1Jl1LfC LA:i\DS: It is addreo•1ed to every on A of lH. I hope as the Estirnates are bc-~ing teviewed the spirit of n1oderation \ViH bP ::-:hown, and that it i~ not desirable to force :\1\nisters to increased expendi­ture, because it appeaxs to 'Y·P r.here is a point where we Rhonld pau~e. The t:~.lll-'nditnre now iR a very big expenditure for so small a people. ,Just think of ilJ! _ .. A.n increa~ed revenue during the past four years of £1,000,000 sterling, almost £2 pPr bead, ""d :tn increased expenditure of a litti8 over £1,000,000 sterling. The leader of the Opposition drew attention particularly, and in a verv interesting manner, to the disparity between revenue from pastoral holdings and grazing farms. During adjournment for dinner I have looked into the matter a little more closely, and I find in two cases that there is certainly a very great disparity between the revenue derived from the resumed portion of a holding as com· pared with the revenue from an equal portion of the holding rated a; grazing farms. The dis­parity between the rents paid by pastoral lessees and grazing selectors is further illustrated by calculations made in respect of two representa­tive holding-s of moderate area--

1908-2D •

Mr. KERI\: \Vhat holdings are you rderring to?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA~DS: I thiHk it is hardly fair to mention names.

Mr. KErm: There is this about it-the re­sumption may be nearer to the railw9-y than tbe leasehold is.

The S:B;ORETARY .FOR PUI3LIC LA.:\Dc\: If you will permit me to folluw along- the lines o£ what _l have here, you will see that I an1 no~ seeking to make a wrollg- deduction. I ant not seeking to oppose the deduction made by the leader of the Opposition, but I w:mt to pbce before the House. two c a.ses \V here the State bas derived a Jarge increase of revenue froi.n letting areas as grazing farn1s instead of pa~toral hold­ing'\ and more men have been settled on the sa1ne area.

:0.Ir. KER R : "G nder the same circumstances?

The SEOHETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: The pastoral holding was just in the same loca­tion on the resurned portion as the grazing farm is. The calculations are dated from the time when the whole of the rewmed land was selected, aml a'sume that it would be a reasonable thing for the pastoral lessees to have vaid for the holding-s rentals at the same ratB as the selectN~, not for the whole of the holdings, but fm an area correspon!hng in each case to the art·;-t. re:::-;umed and selected. 'l'he first case iR <'L holding of 630 square miles, reduced by 1".ter 1 to 487 sq11are miles. Reckoning from drrte when the firot resumption uf 300 square miles was selected, if thA pa::;tor:-·d h~~see h;;d paid frCtm year to year on such ptoportiun of tha holding as corresponded in area with the selected land resumed from such holding at the rates paid by the celectors, instead of the rates determmed by the Land Court, the total e,dditional revenue for the past eighteen years from such btJding would have been £S,G7G, or an average of £47G per annu1n.

1\lr. Bow3IAN : That simply corroborates my statement.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: I was not refuting it at all. In view of these figmes I just want to verify that such is the case. The second case is a holding of 321 square mile·;, reduced by later resumption to 257 square miles. Reckoning from the date when the first resumption of 17.1 square miles was all selected, if the pastoral lessee had paid from year to year on snch proportion of the holding a9

curresponded in area with tilP :;elected Jnnd re~nmed from such holding at thf' rn:es paid by the sel8ctors insteacl of the mtn; determined by the IJand Court, the total .odrlitional re;·enue derived from the holding during the past sixteen and a-half years would bm·e been £5,206, or an average of £315 per annnm. You can see that the Lands Department-wherever it can be done; wherever a lease falls in-we do not fttil to pro­claim the holding for grazing rights. If it is not tn.ken up under grazing rights, then the pastoral ]essee is asked to occupy it under occupation license.

}fr. COYNE: But are facilitie' given for it to be taken under grazing rightti?

The SECRETARY :FOR PUBLIC LANDS: If the hon. gentleman can suggest to me any case where facilities are not g-iven I will Sbe if they cannot be made available.

J\fr. BOWMAN: The extension of the lease.~ under the 1901 Ar,t tied up thousands and thousands of acres for a long period of years.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LAN"DS: Happily, so far as the land revenues are con­cerned, it is full of promise. Hear, bear!) As the ''arious leases fall in they will be made

Hon. D. F. Denham.]

418 Supp!i!. [ASSE:\1BLY.J 8upp1,1/.

available imnl<'diately for grazing- ;,election, and then~ is also other Crown land being rnade avail­able for selection. In the case of prickly pear land, from which \Ye have not been getting any revenue, large areas !Ja, e he en taken up, and WP willlw getting revenne from it by and by. Happily, everything, so far a.;; t}w outlook atprc.;:ent is con­cerned, is fnli of promi2e. 8ince the presr-nt Financial Staternt'Dt V>' as delivered thpre has bePn a gteat irnJH"OVf:'llHmt~in une branch of (J'Ur indns­tries. As the leader· of the Opposition pointed out, the wnol values have gone up, and that is 110

small matter in the prosperity of the State, HoNOL'RABLE MEMBERS : Hear, hear !

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LA:'·WS: The11, ag·ain, since the Financial 8taternent wat) prepared, what appeartd to he a failure of the wheat harvest is goiug to be a record f<•r the t:itnte-as far <'~R yield ls concerned, at any rate. Unfortunah·ly, thA area is not Yery large 1 but such area a':; \Ve hn ve, owing to tbe lJeneficer!t rains and the excellent weather there, "ill be a record i11 wheat uroriuction for the State of (~ueensland. ·

1\Ir. H,\TIIlAClm: The fallacy you make is th:,.t a reeocd lw .. rY~~~t in wheat rrtctns prosperity for the State.

The s~=CHETP.EY FOR PCJli,l(; L,\::\!l~: Certainly. 1 ::;houlii take it that th_ greater increa,se in tbe pro-:perity of one br,Jlll'h there nmst be prosperity in th0 aggret.oatc :u; \YelL

:\lr. HAHUACHE: N 0, th:lt dOPH not follow :)Jt all.

The S1C:crn:T . .\RY ~·on PC'BLIC LAI\DS: I know that one re£1'-"Ull that ha~~ iJecn urged for the stringt-ncy of the n)()nt:y mall\.et. to-day is tha~ there has been a Lig- shiir~l<:age in the ex~ port" to the i:Jout.hern Srates. L tst ye-ar the exportf; frorn Queensland mnonnted to £li5,000,000, and the imports to £10,00tJ,OUO; but the rea.son for the f"tringency in the nwney n1arltet baci been the t-hrink~ge in the expert~ to the 8outhern 8tates and the l-Jrice of wool in the old conntry. Another itern which ·is a ~:nwll factor in the prPRI~'f'rity uf Qut"en.-;L1nd i~ the pr()spect of the rnaize crop. 1 ha Ye not seen a yield for n1any yPars so full of prmuit-le as at the present tiu1e. There is a 111·ospect uf a big mair.;e crov, and that spells rn·o~::perity over a big area. The bacon indm~try baR also been languishing, not attributable to a failure of the milk supply; it was really due to thA failure of the nmi7.e supply. The luder of the Opposition, at any rate, '\Vas generous in hi:-; critici~rr1s. l-Ie re­joiced a::3 n1uch as any rne1nber on this side {Jf the House at the prosperity of the State, and for that we give him credit. It is no pleasure for any hon. member, no matter where he sits, to find the State in the doldrums or going back. There is marked prosperity, and the hon. member re­joiced o\·er that as Inn eh as anyone on this side. (Hear, hear !) Them is just one other matter. vVe bne no control over the revenue, but the Governrnent and the House have control ovE'r the expenditure, and it Is in that direction that the Govennent iH applying its energ·y, so that when the lean years come-as they inevit­ably must come in Australia-we will not be caught napping, but we will be equal to the c:ccasion, and we hope the revenue will be ec1ual to the demands made upon it.

Ho:\'OL'RABLE J\'IEMBERS: Hear, hear!

:i\Ir. AIREY (Bris/Jartc South): It was very in· teresting to hear the Run. the :Minister for Lands say he thought things were full of promise just now, but I can scarcely suspect that be had derived that hope from a perusal of the present }financial Staternent, nr frorn a careful considt~ra~ tion of the present E•timates. I noticed this morning that one of the daily newspapers in its

[Hon. D. F. Denham.

interYie,\·s. with the G-o,·pnnnent waR ;;:o kind a~ to say that as some figures which I collected while I was in the Treasury would enter largely into the present Estimates, therefc>re I wuulci Le vreclnded frorn ctitici.sing tbo~c~ lBf'tiinates. T?e criticisms of the Brisbane Press on financial matters are amusing in the extreme. The daily newspapers here have lately renlised that this ~tate is getting into a tlifficult position financially. I have then asked myself-vVbat are the solutions of the difficulties ['l'Oposed by these new,]mpers ·: l find that they recommend two solutions, One daily newspaper recommends that \ve ~bould wipe out the income tax, and another Brisbane daily recommends tlmt we should return to the old davs of endowment tu local authorities. I think. tb:~t when the two leading Brisbane dailies, uf standing and ini­portan-ce as they are, nwke a couple nf recmu­mendations like that, then their opiniuns on most things !\Just requi1e to Le taken with. a grain of ::-alt. (}:fear, hear!) llo"~eYer, w1th regard to my respm;sibilit;; for the presen.t }'inancial St<tternent, I must say that 1 post­tively disavow any re··ponsihility whatever for that Statetnent. K either can I say that the tigurP·i in the E,stlnut.tf .. :s arP fignre:; which I shonld ha Ye preKl'nted to t..l . .., 1 Louse lnH1er pre·cnt conditi1)n.s.

0PPOSIT10::: l\IE-:-.1 liER:->: :Hear, lH <tl'!

1\Ir. --'\IRE1': I m •V draw ::::.Hentiun to one facL since I l. ft the 'j',:,.a,mry, uucl that is that the expeuditnre for :\u\'emb r ba:-; gone 11p by £11D,OOO O\'fT the u1on~h ~>f ::\f"uvember fnr last­Hmr. And t bcct fact alone wmdd bel \'e demanded ~-L recnnsidf--nttion p(;.'36ibly (J£ the 'Whole of the Jignres of t-'xpenditnre and revenue of these E~ti­HlateN. The position when I left the Treasury, abont which i du nnt caro to say nnwh, was very different to the vo~ition ht:l'L The I-1nn. Trea­SlH8r hrn-: iudic::tte~ that be bas a surplus in the future. 1 sincerely hope that that surplus may be realls0rl. I \Vafi not, in such t't h:tpp:v position as to be able t.o foreca~t any such thing. JYiy forecasts are rather in the di~·ection of a -deficit. H O''-"eVGr1 I will corne to that by and b:v. But I \vish to sav abont the wh(1le tenor ('f this t;to. te~ 1nent I h~ve no ::.;yrnpathy \Vith it wha.t:o:;oeyer. I regard portion of it as rr1cre misrPpre::;entati\>n, ancl a dodging of th~-, duty of rectification wh1eh deYolves npdn the Government.

0PPOS!Tl01< :i\'h:,fBERS: Hear, hear!

:VIr, AIHEY: :i.Iy conclPmnation will not rest on the rn·erc charge of increase of expendi~ turo, For the incrf>asc of expenditure the Governrnent of which I 'vas a member was prin1arily responsible, and in a secondary sense the J-1 on:::-:e ':nt.s responsible. Bnt, '"hen the Dxponditun: has been increased, there goes '' ith it a kin <I of correlative duty to meet rhr; bill in time. .'\s a member of that Cabinet. I can say with perkct houPsty that mv influence in the Cabinet was in the direc­tion of restricting whatsoever tendency there might be for l<tvish expenditure; so that I shall be perfectly honest in the criticism I n1ake this evening-. ...:-\t th{' ~a1ne tirne, let n1e sav that I should have no word to say against th;, great incmase in expenditure-for which we aro all rcsponsiblo--

~\Ir. KEKXA: In a very secondary degTee.

i\Ir. Aili,EY: If tho Government had shown in this Financial Statem2nt that they aro alive to the duty that is now pressing upon ns of meeting that expDnditurc in a right and proper "ay, The Financial Rtatemcnt commences by expre<sing pleasure at the sta.bility of the finances. Tho last paragraph in the State· ment appeals to the Committee to try and realise the extremely dangerous position into

'vhich "\YC arC' .!rifting. Ts there not a CL'rtain n1nount of illCong-ruity between those two paragraphs? I :~hould inwgino that stnbility irnp;iPs a fairly unifor1n equilibrium behveen re.-"nuc and <•xponditure-that both advance nt thb same rate; that thev mark time side bv siclc : that if they fall b~ck, they fall baclr togt-)Lhcr. But, when one is bounding head­long fm·ward, and the other is pausing, and app~rently gcti:ing ready to makP a retreat, I cannot sec 1nuch fwns- in the trrm "stability." Last year thern was a surplus of £115,000. It is noticeable thnt one-half of this, as tho lead<'r of the Oppmition pointed out-£33.9i3 -was due to the fact that tho Federal Trea­surer returned that amount more than he did thn rreYious ye:1r. If I add to that the £ \4.0UO of lust yca.r's collection;;; which 1-ve have T.ecciV{'d this yf'a.r. 110 less a. stun than £87,{}00 m·er and above tho amouut cstiruatecl bv the State Ti'casuror has been rf'turned to Q~cens­lund l1v dw CoirliJwn \\ r alth Treastll't'r. I ~eo it sta:l'd "here that ihc cxr·'nditure as below the p.;;tirnate by £G7,00"0. This i;;;; quotr•d, of conrse. as a proof of a. satisfaotorv ftnancjal adminis­tL~tir;!L r ain not :-;ayiug t'rlC'l"C' ·was not. I am not :--ayi11g there ·was; but. J do say that. pl'o~'' rly speakiu~·, it is no ~vidcnce at all of an,y ::;aving. .For this reason: The cxi~tence of tl1nt sewing is simply due to tho fact that .B17:Ul00 -ro1 ed for various ptuposes -..vas not

l'xpcnded at a.Il. The expendituTe has lwon postponed ln so~ne cas.es. I will

gi;;c• a fe\\' .flxa.mples. 'Ye kno,v, for in­stance, thal: £G0.000 \\ ac:; Yotcd for old-age fJPJJ.-.,inns. Thorp \\as £1;1.000 put clown for a. technical colif'p;e---not expc;Jcktt Some ;_,j-_'!{}0 was put dow11 for in1n1igration~that We'. not ,,,xpemled. The smn of £10.000 for a l'0wa.rcl for prickly :;l0at· extt>rn1in ation was not· cxp<'nded. The sum of £8,000 foT tho COl~-~·-cn-ation nf Yla.tr•r \YaS 110t expend-eel. r_rhe sun"l.. of £3,000 for policC' vvas not espPndecl: alld '-P-n'ral other itL'nls, 111aking iu all about

rrakC. for installC:C, thP first iten1 for olcl-age pcnsioni'. That. 1nonpy

y, a.':- not. expcud(~d for that purpose. Tt conld not !H', of conrS(', political change;-:; prl'Yt._•ntcd tho Bill carriPd into OllPra-tion as soon as it WD'-3 dcsirerl.; and, of coursr, that \Yas not the fault of t,ho Government. Th.• 1noncv fm.' the technical colk'u.e wa:-; aLo not eXf1Gndcd. You cannot call tl;at lcinrl of thing a saving, si1nply bccau:::c a. consiclPr­

arnount of that .ruon('Y v::i1l cmne on snch a., the vot{'s {or tlw t.Pchnical

thC' con.s~r~.Tai:ion of water, the l'f-'­

tlw extrrmination of prickly pear. kind of thing. But this paragraph

has bec!l written 'vith ihe ide\L of giving the pul>ltc to understand that there has ]wen a ~a ti :-;factory clecreasC' in cxpcndi tu re. As a

of fa..ct.. it i-; no r_,rcof whatsoc•ver of <•xerc]~e of CC'01Jornv. L<-'lt anvbc:clv turn

to th<0 R~hmuJes of cXp<-'nditure." Talcf' the\> IImnc Departrnent, for instance. rrhere is supposed to be a saving in ihat department of £G,8i8. But there is absolutely no worrl of the £60,000 for old-age p<>mi{ms, which v.- 1;;; Pvidc;ntlv used in so1ne other direction. I nrn not saylng that n1oncy 1-vas not wisely spent. I am not going to discuss that at alL 11"t I my that, when a paragraph in thr Financial Statement talks about the satisfac· tm',Y decrease i 'l the expc,•diture, and when

consideT how that so-called faYing has dfpctecl, th<' statement is ahsolut<'l.'

ridiculous under the circumstances. "'lw, th<> olr1-agc prnsion money alono wou1cl ;;_early ha\'C wip·'rl out the who]p of the so-callecl c;atisfactory decrease of £fl7.000. On page :2

419

\Ye ha \-e a few details of ll1Cl"C'a:-:es and cle­C'f{•ascs in revenue. !t i6 Y('YY inh'rPstiHg to note that the tltricc-condCtunPc1 Coinmon­wcalth Treasurer returned £GO,OOO on•T the amount he returned the previous year ; also that the railways showed an increase of £1li,OOO over the prm·ious year althoucrh they returned £77,000 bdow the' estimate. How there came to be such a discrepancy betwc~cn the estimate and the amount realised I cannot quite see. It is interesting to notice a few d.Isappearanccs from the Estimates this year. .For instance. I notice that the vote for thn t••chnical coil ego is rerlucc J fmm £15,000 to £5,000.

Mr. KEKNA: Ah! X o business in it.

:\[r, 7\IHKY: I nntice tlw rcw::rd ior t';,• <~::ternnnation of prickly p{1 £U'--£! 0.000-ha.-; :~n~a,l?!warL1 d. ~)n the uth~'r lw.IJ_cL 1- e haxc a. ,,u.Nc.l;':', to t h" rorre· Stra1t sc-rnce of £:?S,OOiJ. u.nd £w.100 for h','o motOT cars. How<Jvcr, those. are small thmg-s. Now, w<J come to " Yery Important matt0r. I notice the increa .. ,. ~n tll{-'l ra.1lway expenditure for the '\Thole year 1s put do\Vn a.t £103,000. \Yhen we cousidcr that the r.allv~ a~ expenditure already has gon,_~. up by £161,000 m five munths--Dven supnosiw~· I H!ake,sorne allo\Yance for some extraorC.Enar\r ~xpe~d1ture that theTe may han' been there~­'"oes It not sec' m to bo Ut\<'r)y alJc,urc)?

The. SECRETAP.Y FOH RAILWAYS: \Yhich VOil probably know of. '

:Hr. AIREY: Some of it I know of. B:n, eyen if I Ina.ko allowa.nce for that, do{'-, it. not ar.peaT to bo utterly absurd that we shonlcl pn'· down the 11lcrca,u at. only £10:3,000 for th·• w Lolo year? I re1nenJ ber 1 ast v(c;a.r the Tren.~ surer, in speaking cdJOut tho ~Railway E , ~-~ rnates. used th-e so \Yards: " The amaunt of £153_.000 incroa "_e in thn Ru.ilwn.~ Estinw h' --;,as. r-clatin?Iy, vcrv n1adera.t2.;, J a.-2.1'00- with thD hGn. ;.;·ontl.emcLn: bnt. if a of £153 000 was wrv hi·: (k partl11;!nt lik-E' tl1e j"·ail·wa:vs, n1ust. 1w :'aid a.bont u. rise~ of £103.0.00? I ren1en1hPl'. just l:cfor-c I J('H the Tr{:P~~nrv, i11 drafting tho l·:~timatc '· I allo-wrd for n. '"snnF'V'hat l~rg~cr rioe than that. But. >ince that iime I finc(Jw t be monlilly that the railwa.y expend;. h.il'{' has up the month cf Novernher. I think, £80,0(10, and yet tb<' tote.! esti-m~ tc:l expenditure is lo·wer than the arr1ount I put dcnvn ln my draft Estin1a.tes.

The SECRETARY FOR RATT."\"\TAYS: There js D~l-0 srccial reason foT that. This :\ ovcmber tlwre w··ro thre-e fortni7htly pa.yn1ents aR a9-ain~1t hYo fortnir;·htly payments last ~o.-eml:er. 1_"lho:-:.p a.r0 ma.tt~r-.:. 'xhic11 adjn:-:.t t11en1selvc, Lut tllat i~ a rnatt<'r of £:30.000 a.1on

Thn 'rnE~\S('~!EH: Thcy are ncn-rccurrin~ .. :: jt,pms.

J\Ir. AIH.EY: Suppose I decluct that £80.000 from thf' arnount 1 ;.;·aye, C'\'{'11 then the situ,.:­tion ]--; Yery seriou~.

Thf' SECRf.TAgY J'DR t\AILY·lAYS: I think a.n­othPr H'a.;;;oll i . .;; th{_> E:-'tirna.te3 hcin;:z: pas;-;ed o~t such a la.te. poriod of the £nnncial year.

:\ir. A THEY: Tha.t is nossiblc. Anrl I reco~· .. nise it ].~ po-,c.:.iblo t-hat :'OTI10 of thf'"'f' 111a~T

aclju'it t11ern . .t'h·o::; to a Cl'rtain -0X

[i.30 p.m.] tf'nt, but I do not think any od­justn1ent. tha.i". 1::; likeJy to ta.Jcn

p]a.cP i.;:; 1ikP]y to hring· the Esti1natC'-=: int-o a ~.aJisfactory ro~,jtion.

Th{'· RECRETAHY ron R·HL\VAYS: Yon 'Yil1 b~ nhl" to "'" a.t. th0 <'nd of the. year.

Jfr . .Airey.]

•.120 Suppl.IJ. ~ASSE.i\IBI,Y.J Suppl,l;.

1\Ir. AIREY: Possibly. Ko'>': I come to the lonw llcpa.rtincnt. Ihe an1ount put do\vu

fot olcl-a.ge p€1k:im;s 1S £13,1,000, against £GO,OUO ];1st year. 1 notice itmt tho Yote for hchpitalb and clw.rital,le i11stitutions has jumped frorn £8B.4/G to £93,389, a rise oi 11-E_•a.rly G in one year. lf this f20Cs on

vote '·ill be a laTge burclen nw tha~

it

l! on. C. B. FonnEST: \Yha.t do you pr<Jposc?

'\_lr. ~-\IHRY: I 1,ror}o~'?d a ~chcme ~orni.._\ tin1{~ u.gu.

E. D. FoRREST: .. \ud you rna.dt a joll~~· rn·e~s it.

~ lr. ,\I HEY: "ill vu" what I would to d(l when the ~ coruc:._;. {Laugh-!JOtice al ,t) that dJcru i:-:; i.l., reduction

to £2/,liOO en the vow for lJun-l suppO::)C that is in cor:.sequcncL'· of the

operation of- the old-a;.re pension.'), \\ hich it is prP~un1cd \Yi!I iakc p0oplc C;-ut of DnlnYich; hut I notic-e by the ...:.\.uditor-C~cucral's n:port that the sun1 of £60,877 v. as ,3ptnt on Dunv>ich 1a.st y-e<1r, l do Hot tLink £:~7.000 will Lle sulflci{~t1t. eyer, that is a. srnall rnatl:cr <Jl a ft";V t1H1usaud poun.Js. Jlr-rC' is a n1atter, ho .\·e..,-er, which is not a sin all matter; anJ it · nra.tt·~r tba .. t is sir£nifica.nt of nroro than one

d~:-~partiueut. The 0x:pcnditurc jn the Department ~.hows au increa..:::e of on an ;:~xpcullit-tre of £139.000. a. ri~o

nf 110 than 16 per cent.; but thP .estirna.tcd increase in the reYenuc i:::. onlv £B:2,000 on .i-j61~.000. a ri:-·J of about .~ pPr C0n t. l l;:.now it i-3 Ull'1Yi"-c to curta.il {•xpenditure on dt~velop­nwnt \York; ncYt•rthe1~::;~, , c 1T!.tHt achnit that J, clit~crepa.ncy betlH'f'n a Ti~t~ Di 1{) p-er cent. )n expenditurt~ and 5 p.Pr C'f'lli. in reyc·nue i'3 wmihy of notice.

cVlr. \11/. H. BARNES: Arc there not good reasons?

:\Ir. AI11EY: There are always good r0a~.ons for thosR things. I aoTced v;,"ith the lc::tdn of the Opposition wh,;, ~he said we 1vero not dcriYing the ren~nue ·we have a r1ght to derive from our national estate. t' Jming to the raihvays, I find thG same state of things. I find that the railways show an increa,e of £108.000 on an expenditure of a little m·er £1.000,000. That is about 10 per cent. They show an increase of £101.000 in rc·YPnue on a total rove.nuo of so1nothing over £2.000.000; that is to say, an increase of 5 per cent. \\~hen you haye an estimated inw crease of 10 per cent. on estimated revenue. anc1 only an increase of 5 per cent. on esti­mated e,;:penditurc, if that sort of thing is likPly to go on long, it will land departments 1n a ,-0ry queer place.

The SEGRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: 'Nhat about the relaying?

Mr. AIREY: I am perfectly prepared to make some allowance for that. The Mines Estirna.te-; <:;lro1v an increase, of £17.000 on £3!.000, a rise of 50 per cent. I suppose that is due mainly to the £14,000 or £15,000 for prospecting, deep sinking, and so on. In ad­dition to this there is a rise of £5,000 on the loan vote. As to whether this increase can be looked on as an adequate redemption of the promise made last year to mining members, I leave that to them to consider. Last year there were £8,000 legal expenses incurred in regard to the sale of Jimbour, and I believe that sum was paid out of revenue,

[Mr. Airey.

though I thought it would have been justifi. able to have charged it to trust: and I would like dw 'l'rc•asurcr to tell me whether it has bcPn paid Lack to reYcnuc this year.

The T HEASCHER: Y cs.

::\!r. AIREY: 1'hat is to sa'·. it was ta.kcn ou~- of revenue la~t y-ca.r. and it is put- back to rcYC'll11C thi::-; yca.r. \Yith re-gard. to tbe reduc­tio!>. of thP nrin;:ng- vote, I rnu~t a.drnit t.htLt botb n1v:-:'2lf and tlJC lat-e -:\Iini~,t....-2r for ~lines ,. ere u'tlCl.cr a 1nisappreten;-;ion. It \Yas our b-elief in mah:ing up tltG ::\liniu~· EstinuLtcs that th ~- Prernier iutcnded to give a.n additiona.l ±::;)u.ooo to the n1inillg- indu·-try. The proof of Jhat li<?, in the fact tho,t Uw draft l'>tnnate•J I {hew up ]Jcfow I left the Treasury eollta.in<>d prcvision in r·evcmue loan for nearlv tbc \YLDle of the a.rnount. ~Iinister for 5IiuPs undonbtec1ly thought so, otherv:i:--c it. would not base been don{). I an1 pre:tJaT<~d to admit tha.t we rna.v haxe heen nristakcn: and, in read­ing up the -reports in thG Prc~s, all I ca.n say is that the Pren1icr did not specify any exact su1n. ~ oue the 10:':.1, I ~un bound to say that the late- c.linistcr for :\lines 11lld the depart­ment '"ere o£ the' opinion that it w11s intended to Yote l•etween £40,000 am! £50.000. Tl1o next s<>ction dealt with iu the Financial State­ment is the ([nestion of the loan fuud. It is all old saying that govcrnn1('l1t is finance a.nd finance• j;::, goYt~rnment. It dDec:;. not matte.r wh{·ther a 'oov-ernrrtent brings in tw~nty, or thirtv or £urtv reforms; if the financial basis o£ tlie' Sta.te i; allowed to becom0 so nnsouncl tLa.t you C3Jlnut find the 111011ey .for th-e upkeep of those refornF those reforms m the long run are but as sounchng Lrass and tinkling cyn1bals. It is a well known axion1 that roforrYl in the lc·nrr run n1eans additional taxation, a.nd a ref~nn GiYcrnrnent in tbe long run, -if it is honest, ITlU:'3t cotne to be a taxing Go\~ernment. If a rdorm Government does not impose ta,;:a­tion. it has to rai5e money by some other n;.ean.3--bv vicious n1eans-or have a deficit. In . .Au.,tr~.ha and in ~t'W ZcaJa:!.id the raising of monev bv mf'ans of loans rcsolyes itself iiOto the" marmfacture of booms by means of bvish expenditure of loan mon<'y. I think my­self the most rt>.markable example "e have ever had of that kind of thing w11s in th€ ea"" of the la.t.e Richard S€'ddon of New Zeal11nd. Seddon pod.?d as a.n a.dvanc-ed den1ocrat-~ an_d he. passed a g-reat deal of vmy g·oocl d€ mocratw ]e;ri~\ation but how did he. provicle for it? Ile did not pr~vicle for this legislation by narc1 and l~oncst taxation, but ho provided for it by inR fi&..ting- the :revenue, by a V·ery large expendi­ture of loan money.

Hon. R. PHILP: He imposed any amount of taxation as well.

Mr. AIIlEY : I am afraid he relied a great deal more on his boom policy than on taxation.

Mr. BmniAX (to Mr. Philp): He was prepa1·ed to introduce a land tax, and that is what your chief is not prepared to do.

Hon. R. PHIJ,P: There was a land tax in l\ew Zealand before Mr. Seddon's time.

Mr. AIREY: There is no doubt Mr. Seddon did a great amount of good, hut I a.m bonnd to say, as far aR his financial policy was concerned, it was absolutely unsound. He mainbtined his Government and his revenue for the last few years of his life by an expenditure of two and a half to three millions of money per annum. The net result was that his Government was, finan­cially speaking, simply a duplicate of the old Vogel Admin stration-the very same Adminis­Jration that got New Zealand into such trouble in the last twenty years. Any body who reads

Supply. ~7 DECDfBER.] Supply. 421

; and the \Vorst '->f t;uverH!!H:'llt get"l into d£:1H~JCratlc in the eyt:K the

is very appat·ent 1n tne near

the othe:r Jay a very w•.ccvocw

p·uing the PrerniHr to h,d been toN ew Ze Jand, knew the career of l\Ir. s,~ddon, and bad cvn1e back to thii S-.ate prep:u·ed to h<•ld up the example of Mr. Sedclon, anr'.. ru:1 this country on ;:;he lines of New Zealand. The amusing part of this is: About t·wo day~ <J_fler in th~ Daily 1llail J read thls paragrG~ph on the position of New Zettland-

Tilc lesson for tbe .the tig-ht make the advances. wa.s nnfelt, but priee of lan-'l much they al'e lJI'HJJtW~tlly perty.

It that the rc:tson~·tuat

in making tbe prc:::.sure tbc market

Hs lending value, so that advances upou real pro~

That dangerous condition of things in New Zealand at the present timo is the direct result of .tl(e bad featm·e of ftiuhard Seddon's policy. VVItn regard to the question of loan expendi­ture, ~o which I am leading _up, I must say th1s: That ]oan ekpenchture Ill a young Un­developed country like Queensland is a matter of Yery great importance. Without the ex­penditure of loan money, the work of develoo· ment .will be very . slow and very difficult. But w1th the expend1ture of loan monev there 1s, unfortunately, an internal tendency to be lax and laVIsh, and create booms by unjustifi­able expend1ture. There is seldom anv need to tell Austr:>lian Treasurers to go aherZd with the expend1ture of. loan money, because whereas you can pomt to numbers of them wilo have led their States into difficulties bv layish expenditure of loan money, you can posstbly hardly find one who did an injury by bemg sparmg of loan money. This question has become a very serious one. Hon. members know perfectly well that our loans were floated in the years past with an utter dis­r~gar~1 of so~nd finance or comm?n sense. 'I hat 1s a number of years ago; I dp riot allude to recent loans. 'l'he result is that we have a number of loans maturing in one year in place of havmg them distributed over a series of years. To give an example: Sir William Lyno has compiled a very useful table, in wh10h he shows that the Australian States h

1av:' falling due in the next few years-by

191" they have fallmg due no less than £62.000,000 in loans. Hon. members may say: How does Queensland stand in the matter? Dy the end of the year 191.5 Queensland has to meet £14,325,300 in loans. In 1912 £.')30.000: in 1(!13, £2,066,500; and, in 1915, £1,1, 128,000. By the year 1924 Queensland wul have nearly £32,000,000 maturing. How­ever. we are not concerned about 1924.

Mr. LEXXON: It is a long way off.

:\Ir. AIREY: It is a long way off, but we ought to be concerned about it if we had any common sense. Dut Queensland is very nearly concerned with 1915. In that year we shall have ~alling du~ nearly £14,500,000. In one year thrs State w1ll have to convert some­thing like £12,000,000 of loan monev; and in 'four years--by 1915-we will have fo convert

a larger amount than any other State. That is not the worst side of the queation, although 1 t 1s bad ellough. ::\eyeml of th3 other States h!Lve large a:m<?_unts maturing before then. New South Wales has something like £10,000,000 maturing, and Western Australia and Victoria have also large arnounts to con­vert. lt is po"ible WO mav have a stroke of luck-it is possible we may~strike the London market at a favourable time-but if not ther0 will be trouble. It is :10 use shutting our eyes to the fact that we running a very serious danger. A few ago I picked up the Sydney Jl01·nin(! Ilc1·alcl, and I read a very interesting and able article on this question. The Sydney Jlorning Herald put it this way-

Through pure lnck a real crii:d:;. falling due. As and capital was tht:refore were enabled to rettnired in the~e But suppose the was no great \Vhat WOUl(i the t!Late in face ot a ban!.;: rate fact, she.er luck might have

'I' he H crald here indicates a very real and palpable danger. We nave £14,000,000 falling· due in about six years, and financial problems arising out of Cornmonwea.lth complications besetting us, so I think it is imperatively neces· sary that we should go as slow a.b \''>'€ possibly can with our loan expenditur·e. If we have to raise £8,000,000 or £9.000,COO for development purposes in the next ha.!f.dozen years, we must inevitably render the loan market le,ss favour· able to oinselves. The policy of the Kidston Governm<mt on this point has not been a bad one. I think, in comparison with the other Sta.tes, it has been good. I notice in the four yea.rs before the advent of the l\1organ Go­vernment there was an exp<:mditure o£ £4.488,000 of loan mony, averaginf!; £1,144,000 per annum, and in the last four years of tho ]\,forga.n-Kidston Government there has been an expendituri:~ of £2.240,000~ an average of £560,000 per annum. So that in the last four years the loan expenditure has been only about half what it was in the previous four years.

Mr. W'. H. BARl'iES: What was last vea.r's expenditure? "

Mr. AIREY: £1,033,000 was the expenditure from loan money.

l\lr. 'VV. H. BARNES: You were a party to that.

JVIr. AIREY: Yes; but nearly half of was money paid out of revenue into loan account.

Hon. R. PHII.P : That does not make any difference.

Mr. AIREY: Oh, yes! it. does make a dif. ference. There was a gTea~ jump forward in the year 1901·8, but, as I said just now, some palliation may be found for that in the fact that a large proportion of the money spent was money paid from r"ve,me into loan. J'\ow we come to the new phase. of the question as disclosed in this Financial Statement. 'VVe aro to spend this yes.r £1.596,000 ot loan money. Very little of that will be money paid out of revenue. Our surplus last year was only £11.'i,ODO, so that this expenditure, if it is car· ried out, will be nearly all loan money pure and simple.

Mr. W. H. BARNES: Is not it largely for railways?

'.Jr. AIREY: The hon. member is, of course, going to a.J'gue that the expenditure is for a 0·ood nurpose. That is possibly perfectly But in any case it means tha.t the

Mr. Airey.]

422 Supply. [ASSE~1BLY.J Supply.

per a-nnum for the last four ;vears from £1 to something like· £3 per

of population. I ma.y be told, as hon. member ha.s sug~ested by his interjec­

that this money will be well a.nd wisely I sincerely hope it will. I know that

the th<eory of the thing. There never a million of money dump0d into a any othN pretext. But that is not

My point is that the policy Df the Yr·ernH'r--b<:>cause the present Treasurf'r has

The rRE~IIER : you You are

few we<:>ks, and the Pre-fimmcial pDlicy of the

policy of the Premier--deal with the

with the Fina.n-

~Ir. AIREY: Is it· a fair th-ing- ·-? The PRE}I!ER: It wcvrld at least he "courteous

thing. Hon. R. PHILP : Deal with his predeceswr.

Mr. AIREY : I c~n de"! with his prede­ceRsor's position, and justify it. I have 8aid nothing at all to-night that is inconsistent with the stand I to"k up a-; a :\lini,ter of the Crown. The present Treac-urer ha.R been in office only a few weeks, gnd I it i·~ an unfair thing to saddle U1Yln him responsibi1itv of - t.hA gigantic change in the finonciel poli'cy of the State. I ,should like to quote the opiuions ex­l1ressed hy the Pre-rniPr upon this qw:~tion of loan _expenditure a few age. It.ls quite poRs1ble that he to jns•.ify the pre-sPnt cbu,n~e in hi~ nnd I shon1rllike to glv~ him an opportunity BO. The hon. gentJernan told ns tbe other thart \ve could refe-r to hlB spt'eches, and 'ive should get a lot of valwthle infnrmation from them. There is no douht t.hat 'ive can. Th·~ other afternoon, I remembPr, he w'ds pokinq; fun at my propoc;a.l that we shonld have a Queen,land mem as Go­vPrnor of thi.-. State. Tbe next. dav I took up h-..-ansarcl'J and tll.rned to a speech Of the hon. gentleman's in which he recommended the same thing.

Hon. H. PHILP: \Vasn't he in Opposition then?

The PRE~!IER: What a pit.y you did not di&­cover it before.

Mr. AIREY: It is a pity I d'id not discover it before, bnt I hare it now, and I propose to refer to it for the information of the HouRe. In that speech he recommended that the salary of the Governor should be reduced by £4,000 or £5,000 per annum, but said we could not do that while we bad an imported Governor, and that we should have a Queensland man as Uovernor. His rerr,arks on thH subject wiil be found in hie speech on tbe Addres;; in Reply in 1902. But to return tn the question of loan expenditure. The hon. gentleman, speaking on the Address in Reply in 1903, said-

·we are told that'' circumstances did not yet warrant the introdnd.ion or any extePsive programme of public works." This is diplomatic ht11guage which seek~ to disguise the rather unpleasant fact that we are at the end of our tether with regard to the loan industry. It seeks to encourage the belief that our last six months' experience ls merely a temporary cbeck, and t.hat we wilt have another burst of loH-n money later on jf we only continue to have confidence in the Philp Govern­ment. (The ~J':CRETARY FOR RHLWAYS; You Will never get loan money jn any other way, anyhow.) }fr. K.: And a good job, too. (0PPOSI1'10N ::\f.KJIBERS: Hear, bear ~) At the end of last session I tried to induce this House to limit our borrowing. . . . . I did not ask the House to suddenly stop borrowing at that time, but only to limit the borrowing policy of the Government of that time, and the House feared, I have no doubt, that the country would come to a standstill if we did not pass the loan the Government wanted. trell. the loan is just '\Yhere it was, and we might as well not have

~Mr. Airey.

passed it. I h:we gone into the m::~tter very fully since-then, to find out for mvself results of Queens-lA.nd's borrowing ~ of twenty years, and I am mote ever the loan industrv, as it 1s quite to eall it, must and ought to come to an en(l. Queensland. t.JfEJIBERS 01'' THE 0PPOSI-TIO:'i" : Hear, hear:)

That is what the hon. gentleman said when in Opposition, and he may 1·lead that fact in justi­fication. But I will take the et and he tnok when he was a ~Iini:,;ter of the Crown, a stand which I think was to be co-rnmended, and which was very much to hi;; credit. Thi;; i' what the hon. gentle­mfln said in his :Financial Statement in 1905-·

FJ:\A~CIAL STATE:\IEI.\1'.

like all t.he other Australian States. has· excel'sive borrowing for many years, and is

now reaping the attennath. The stimulating effect of tbe lavish expenditure on the revenue is gone. but 1he interest bill remains-a heavr burden on half a million of veople. IAt~t year, mainly~ owing to the increaf';e in railway revenue. the UE'\t charge ou was the 1owe~t f1urm,s the last five yellrs. yet, as be seen fto~ r:L'able K, it amounts to £7;-{:-3,000, equal to 20·38 per f~ent. of our total revenue. And the interest bill is not the only evil resn!t of the lavish expenditure of boom t.i.me"<. Public sentiment, in regard to gtYvernrnental t>xpenditare. h::ts been vitiated to such an extent HS to render a return to a sane financial polic.v the most ditncult and most unpovnlar task that any Government can undertake.

There is a great deal of sound sen,;e in that 'tatement. Tn the year 1904, speaking on the same Rubject, he said-

is certainly deslr1blc to stop borrowing-to stop to onr f!.lready too heavy interest bill. But it is

to do this with the least pos~ible hindrance to needful and healthy clevelopmcnt The poliry of the Government is to u1 ilhe funds llOW at their disposal­and to provide funds for the account--1n sueh a way

but continuous

Theee is a great deal of sound seme in the argu­rnEnt used l1y the hon. gentleman on tbatJ occa.sion. I do not raise any objection to it. It w2., a policy with which l was on the whole cordially in sympathy, although I thought that as time' got Letter it might be susceptible of a certain amount of expansion. ~ow, let n1e a.sk the Premier what has l.Jeeome of his earlier policy with regard Ln luan expendituno? In the first tour vears of his cart> er as Treasurer he was exceeding.iy careful, spending on an average only £4?)0,000 per annum. In one year he spent only £225,000, and in another only £297,000. But now we have got a complete rever~al of that policy. ·whereas he considered £207,000 suffi­cient for ]na.n expenditure in l!J05-6, we find BOW

from thi" Financial St,atement that he considers £1,5%,000 a fair thing.

Mr. \V. H. BARr;Es: Don't f,;rget the fact that last year you spent £1,000,000 when you were Treasurer.

Mr. AIREY: This is very amusing when one rememl.Jers I was only Trea,urer four months of that year. I am quit.e prepared to justify my position. But what I am doing at the pre­sent time is comparing the Premier's [Jresent financial policy with the opinions he has previously expressed with regard to expenditure from loan fund. The Premier knows better than any man in this Hou;;e that if there was

ever one man in that Cabinet who [8 p.m,J tried to restrain him from his foolish

expenditnre it was myself. (Hear,. hear!) Now, I will ask him this: Why is there this 'luintupling of loan expenditure within five ye,.rs 'I He himself has used the most cogent argu­ment8 alS"ainst this increase of horrowing policy. Over and over again in the House-time and. again when I have been on platforms with him-I

Suppl_y. [7 DECD!BER.] Supply. 423

have heard hiln >Speak, nnd he has u~;::.fj the~f! very argument.; about the '"P}Jfi)ach of lDL\ <.-tnd what ir. meant to this State.

:\Jr. }lANX: On every platform in Queensland. Ylr. A l!<EY: I have heard him dilate on it

ag-ain and again. I underetand that the hnn. member for Townsville n,nd the hon. member for Bnlimba have n,lways advocated a fairly libeml expenditure of loan money.

Mr. \V. H. BARXES: Yes, we have been con­sistent in that, anti y1lU have lPen inconsistent by spending it "bile not advocating it.

:Yir. AIREY: Excuse me, I h'we u•Jt been inc )n8istent, because while I was connected with the late Cabinet therB was never a. wild expenditure of lmw money. It was limited to . .:;omething- like £,100,000 per annum, Je-s th~n half of what it w.J .. ':l d:u ing tbe previou~ year::::. If this is a f\ound policy that; the hon. member a lvocated in 1'10.} G, surely it i,; a sounder policy in 1\JOS-9, when we are mar to the dangercms period of If it was \vi.:;e in 1HO,J~6 tn keep l•1an • down to 10s. a head, is io right in when we •~ re clo~e to the da:ng-t>rous p~riocl of t·) raise it to £3 a head. If it was in to keep om on the renewa:s of 1 !Jl2, l:ll:i, and l!JE>, is it wise to do the same thing now?

Hon. E. B. FORRRST: \Vhy did you all th(fse railways ~-~c the end of last JI~.)w have thnsc to be paid for'? You know why you did?

Mr. ATREY: There was no reason to vut all those railways in one year. But that d<;es not necessarily require a.n expenditure of £1,000,000 of lne.n money.

Hon. E. B. FoRREST: You are objecting to the expenditure now.

:\1r. AIRBY: I am simply drawing attention to the policy of the Premier during the last few years. I will come to that directly. The I're­nde!:'B previous FinanciHl Sta.tenwnt, or his lH'P~ sent one, stand.s conde1nned out of his u\:vn n1outh. If his previous restriction~ nn loan expenditure were wise, then his preFent policy is wild and reckless. If his present policy is judiciou,, then his previou' policy wa' detrimental to the State. Peroonally, I think his previous r;olicy~it might hrwe been expanded a little~wes a wise one .. I think his present policy is full of danger. I think the,t <tll the indications are-and they are pretty clear~that we are at the beginning of a boom period. Seddonism, or whatever yov. like to ca.ll it, has come along with a vengeance in Qoeen,land.

:Yfr. :YioLACHLAN: Kidstonism now.

:\1r. AIRBY : I want to be understood : I recognise quite clearly that a certain amount of l•lan expenditure is necessary in any country like Queensland. I recognise that development must proceed, but I cannut see any justification for iuJnping up loan expenditure from lO.s. a head two or three vears ago to £3 a head as it is now. I must say this for the Premier, that, up to the close of the year 1906-7, he was a careful and capable financier, and did exceJlent work for Queensland; but I am very much afraid th'<t on pre"ent appearances there will be a very good democrat a.nd good financier this year buried in the same grave. (Laughter.) I will deal now with the next question discus.~ed in the _li;stirnates, and that is the question of the relations between the Commonwealth and the St•tes, and I must say if ever there wa' a lop-sided Statement put before this House it is this particular 8tatement.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. KERR: The object is to deceive the

public.

::Ylr. _;. TRBY: The other evening the Pre­Htif-r, iu discu;:;.s:ng the prnpns<1.l"' nt Sir \Vrn. Lvne and the propos;;ls < f the Labuur pwty, tr;ld 11< tl1at Sir \Villiam Lyne proposed to divitle smne £H,000 1000 an1ong the StateF. He said further thai. la&t year the 8tatrs were re· cei ''ing £H,2:SO,OOO, and if either of thes<l prop mals had into operation thi.-:; year, thi~ H1n1se would had to impose direct taxation equivalent to incre,sing the income tax from tlcl. to ls. in the £1 oe ls. 3d. in the £1.

:'IIr. I-L~RD,\CRE: Is tlnt " <rnotc~tion, nr your O\Vn statement?

Mr. AlREY: This is n quotation from the Premier\~ speech. 'The Premier, in .1naking those remark', rnere!y sho .ved that be drd not under­stand wh>tt 8ir \V<lliam Lyne's proposalsacttnlly '-\ere, Hnd what they rneant to Qll8f'l1Sland; and I am 'ery much afrnid that he did not under­staud the Labour proposals either.

Mr. ::\IcLACHLAi\': He 11dmitted that. ::\Ir. AIREY: Sir \Villiam Lyne's nwn tables

that he supplied to the Federal Conference showed tlla.t under hiB :::cheme Que.c:mslmHi, un a popuJatinn basis, would receivt:> Pnt n~ th8:'t £(),000,000 no leso a sum thttn £77D,OOO. i\«w, rf you add 'o that, the £140,000 for old-age pensiOns,

£ill9,000. That is practJCally the value prop •Sal to Queensland at the pre,:nt

time·. By-the-way, I notJCe that the Premrer, in de,;ling with tbe question, took last year. I.a.st vea.r vvas a boom year in Custorns revPnue. On account ,.f the alterations in the tanff we received a higher revenue than we may receive for some years to C!lme.

The PREl\liRR: \Vby? -:\Ir. AIREY: Simply because there was an

alteration in the tariff, and there was a rush of goods into the country.

The PREMIER: There is no indication of that so far.

Mr. AIREY: That is the opinion of expert authorities in the Federal Parliament. How­ever, l do not think we are justified in expecting a continuance of any such revenue a,::;. w:e expected to raise last year, but in any case rt ,~s nut a fair thing to take one year. \Vbat 8rr \Villiam Lyne did was this: He took a period of years. ~ow, snppnse we take the last five years. In the _last five year~ we received £4 3(;6,000. That rs an average ot £87!1,000 per an~um, and I have jnst pointed out that Sir vVilliam Lyne's scheme IS worth to us, including old-age pensions, no less a sum than £919 000. So, what becomes uf all th1s cry about the necessity of raising the income tax? Xot only was Sir Will!am .Lyne's s?heme of this vnlue, but his sinking fund, and h1s scheme for taking- over the clebts, represented an lrn­mense gain to thiR State. I have a statement here by the Auditor-General of New South Wales, and he says~

rr a comparison be made on purely aetuarifLl lines between the total of the immediate and the present value of the prospective benefits, and the averHge oE the three-fourths returned annnall.v, based on Ute experienee of the five years ended 30th June. 1898, the result would s}Jow a balance in fa Your of the States amounting to £2,037,000 annually. £2,037,000 annually is the value o_f the scheme with regard to the debts and smkmg fund o~t­lined by Sir William Lyne. In the face of thr~, how can any fair-minded man . '"'Y that S1r \Villiam Lyne's scheme was an IDJUnous one, or an illiberal one, to the State on its pre­sent basis? I am not advocating Sir Will!am Lyne's scheme. _lt has one or two senous defects which I wlll draw attentwn to on some future occasion, but, whatever yon say about the scheme now, it cannot he called a mean or illiberal one. The Auditor-General h1mself

Mr . .Airey.]

jJOint::; !J, l'e that the average :nnonnt received h;,~ all ~tatr:)~ fpr the la~t fi,·e yea.t'S \vas £0,!)()~ 1 000. rrhat i~ a perfectly fair \VRY of doing lt. lie takPs the average over annn1ber of yPars} aca that, I understand, is the \VRY the Labnur party propn:-;e to do it.

I.~ABOGR }[.l-{JlREHS: Hear, hear!

::\lr. AIHE't: Lyrlr' propo<es to return £G,OOO,OOO to the ::>tat""· ann in addition to that we have to add £1,300,000 for old-age pen­~inr1:.::::, which 1,ring.-:: the an10nnt paiJ tn the ~tates up to £7,300,000. \V ell, then, where d"e" the l· ~~ cmne in to the StateR at all, as cmn-

parHl with the averagP of th1~ last [8.:10 p.m.] tiv·e year.,? ~\nd not only tha.t, bnt

y•lll lmvr· tn the good the £2,000,000 ""itlJ n fnlnl tn the debt nnd sinking fund prop '"nh of whkh I ~poke prev-ionsly. In ths tirf'.t place it is ntlerly unfair for nnyune in arguin~~ ahnnt thi:'l scheme to take_ one particubr .YPHr, aud it is an nnf<:ur thing to under"alue ~ir \Yilliarn LynP;~ propm;al tn the Stnter-: hy po~:::ibly .£2,000,000 per aunum. l\nw, this is the Finan­C'ial Staternrnt. It .-.:1y~" nn page .S, wi-.:h re?n.rd to t~e Conunnnwealth-and I n1ust· say that:; a nwre mislAading pttrftgr!Jph never appp:ln.::.d in a Gnver::J.or':-; ~peech {_)r a Fi.nanC'ial ~H:1teu1ent thRn this p<:Lragraph.

0PPOSITIOX .':\IE~l BEns : Hear, ht•ar ~

Tbt~ PH10tJEH : \\~hat }1aragraph do you refer to?

i\lr. AIREY: The first pccragraph. It says in tht~ ti.rst paragra.oh dealing with the CunnH,.il· wealth and tLe Sta,ttt;- -

1 he protect ion ~!,"i.-en to tlH~ States lJy tho Ernd~1on e:au"e terminate~ in Dl-:eemher, HJlO. · '

Now, the l)rernier, the other night, \vhen I 'ivaq talking on this very ~-uLjuct-when I Haid the very :-;·llll~ thinK, and re111arked that the ~afe­guar<l in lfllO, the P1enliPl' very properly

m.e. I ..,,·ished to pnt the thing qnitP cunt'ct1~·~ but, I find hen_• that the PremiPr hn~ got in bi~· E'inancial Staternent preci~"'ly the S<lme ~tatt'ment ns T made the other night.

ThP PHTDfiEh: :\n, no! It iRqu1te tL different ~tatPment altogether. (Oppo~ition laughter.)

::\Jr. 4\JYtEY: The h•n1. gentlen1an ~ay~ in the S~cttenlPnt-

of the Hrar1dcn C'lau:::;c tc:rmh:ates in

'f/Jp Ptur-'UER: The protection- terminate~. neaJ the remaindrr of thu ~entence and j'OU IVill u:rulL"r.stand it.

l\Ir. AII\,EY : "\Yhen I W<'s spe.1.klng tlH-' otht-~r night tlH-\ hon. gentlnnclll correeted lH~: a.nd ~aid tha.t thP- f.:ah·gnard ,,·as cnntinuon.;; until the l'ederal Parliatnent 1nnde sonH other pro,·i~i·Jn. Bnt what dDes he sn.y herc<-

ThP lJl'Otel'tion ginm to tl1e Statt'S hy tll8 Bradr1on elan:'fl tenninates in December, ll!lO.

\Vhv dor~s hP not :::ay here wh:-t.t hg t::aid tho other nl~ht- that, the protectlt~n is continuou~ nntil the }'edPnd J?ar1ia,ment Iuakes ..... on1e othel' pro,~l~i·.l!J,

The P1nmn:E: The protection of the Braddon clan:-e does not go any further t.han that.

The TnEASUHER: Tlv~ Jj,ederal ParliamPnt lMv•> ]·<mer to do what they like. (Opposition lau.~h '.er.)

:llr. AlltE't~: I wonld like the h<nl. ;rc·ntl<'­Inau to look ac;ain :1t thiR iutere~ting }"'inancial StatemPnt. Thi:-~ is vvhat 1 eall the f--€Hl of thi::. be:wtiful financi>Jl prop<•Ral-

The attention of hon. member~ ma.,· lJe drawn to the fu.ct that QnePnsla11d 1luring the l~st tlnanrinl ,rear received £-1-!,2Di !f'ss tban the tllree-fourth'i of thn n~t Cnstom:5 ;wd Rxci::;o renmuu coUeeted in Que3n::;lanrL

'"rbat statemnnt i~ qn1te true, bnt it is meant to convey a.. rni..;;lBading ltnprest'.ion,

The TH>:.~~crma: l\ut at all.

p .. J r. A irey.

:\fr. AIUEY: It is lllPtwt to tl•<' im-prPsf.;ion th_at Qllren:-:;laud nc•"5Yt'.d Jt.ss hr-T

thrce-f~.:urt t1s of Cnstmw; and Lxc1:-;e re, venue--~

The PH.EJJJEH.: It i;;.: a plain staterw:nt (jf fact. (Oppooition laughter.)

Mr. :\luLCA!lY: You are a tvvistc c.

:\Ir. AlREY: The hon. gPntltman j, all ri,.ht in .sayiug that it is a staten1ent of plain fac~: \)lit it is ~tated in suc:h a way a~ to Pucuurage a cHffer­ent iwpre:-;~·:inn, l__.a;.;t y'ear the :State Trea .... urer e~tjmated that he wnull1 get fr()lll the Connuo1l­wealtb collections t.be t:nrn cf £0-!H,.JDt, Hllll it '"·'a~ 1o<.,keclupon ·a,t the time aH being uudcr the estimate hnt as a nwtter of fact the C,taLe rrrt·a::mr~r actually n·c~iYed frmn the Federal collE:ctious la.-;t vear the sum of £l,00:1)G21, ur an increu~e of £5~<n-;-~-) u\ er and above thG amonlit cstim[Lterl. Xot only \vas that t hn case la~~ y t'ftr, but this year we rf'ceive: an addit.i<,ntd .l'SUHl oH acennnt of la-:;t year of J-:3-1,000, wh1ch bnng·., tl!e i3UtH tnta] l ecein.'d front tbe ComlllOll\,:t>alth uu aecnuut of last year up tu £1,037,527. That ls to ::.:aY, we reeeivt'd between J~f-;7\000 r.nd £RH,000 <,Yer ~tnd aboYe the rnost 8<.1ngninee~tiru~cte nwde Ly the State Trcaomer lac;t year.

1\Ir. 1\YLAKlJ: 1\Iore Rob ltoy finance. (Oppo-sitif,Il laughter.) That is wh_~t tbFy call the great steal. (Laughter.)

1\Ir. AIREY: An;-·bocly can >ee why the statFHnent was nmdo in that v. ~tv. The Ntn,te­went wat' Hl':de in that \vny in ord~:3r to give ~he pnblic or:.tside to undersl~n1d that \·Ve were cll,llllj.

very badly in tl•e nmtter of Federal collrction~. The THEA~CHEE: OnlY facts are ,tated there. 1\lr. ~ ;\L\:\:\: A1:d it. i> wpported by the

co:tlition. ·The THEAS1.HER (Ld ~L·. Airey): You are

suggesting lnfereuces.

T\Ir . ..:\._ll=tEY : The fact is ~tatE'cl all right., llllt it i:; C(<nVfVPrl in ;.;nch <-l Wt-JY as to convey a wrong irnp~'es"'ion. littlP brt, further (JD the hon. gentlenwn in his Statement-

It i....: :llltir-iprnrd. that for tbL e;g}lt. anrl a-half year~ :~nth .Ju11{-', there 'inll l>c a st..ortage of

£3fi. in lilC-' HDl0Hl11

The THL\i-\l:HER: Is th;ct not a het? :;Ur. _AllU~X,..: It is not r:. fact. Jt is rucre]y

an :;.nticipation. (Opposjtlou lang·btrL·.) The Treu,-,urer himself sa.ys in hl:-; t\tatemPnt that it i~ nu anticipatldn, an'd he a;.;ks rHe if it. is. llOL a fact. (Opposition laughter.)

The rrl\EASCHER: 'fhat i:.i Sir \Yillia:ru }_;yne's

estilltate. l\I r .. AT REY: ?\ o; it is llllt. ~\V e do not want

nnticipatinns for thl:-) year, but \V8 want tbe fact" of the cnse. _.:-\s 'a nmtter of fact., ·~ the leadE-r of the OppoRltion pointed out to-day, np to the }ll'esent time since the inception of fede­ratit.n we han-~ recei,·cd £17,302 ove:t.· and a~_~()ve the tbree-fnnrth:-; dnd to u~. That is a fact.

.\Ir. J-TAEJ)_\C'H.R: Yes; that is a ~olic1 fact.

Mr. AIB.R¥ : Let us go n little furtbor. 'The hon. gentlen1an in :uwthpr paragraph U'· es this ::;entence-

Taking the f.r-;t iu 111 ln tbe above ta1)lf', H ~.-dll be :-cen tl!at. we antieipate rrcrJving only .i:~l7U,603 irom the Commonwenlth.

Hoy; would the senior me1nber fnr To\YtlAYille h:tV(' srnilecl if he had always got £076,GOG from the CurnmnnwmLlth-as agninst ,£1.0(13,.327 actna11y received l~st year. .\nd when jt ili remeJnbered that tlle anwnnt nf .tD7f),60:5 includes -=CB-±,45-± wbich should reHlly have been }laid to the State dnrjng last tinnncinl year, it reall~- means nn f'."tirnmed drop of£} 5,8:10 in the }"'f'deral return to the State this ymll' as compared with l~st year.

Kow, tl1erP i.s a fnreca~~t of disaster imrr>ediately. \Ybat are the facts up to date? For the five

Suppl,y. [7 DECDlllEl{. J Suppl.IJ .

.rnnn.ths of the flna.ncial year up to da.tt~ we have :X:E:C~l ved frorn th(: Cnnunon wealth £3;) 000 1nore

than Wt• received during the san1e five ;rwnth:::; of la.-;t year.

Tile PREOJIER: And yet you told us that it was gmng off.

.Hr. XYLAND: Hob Roy finance.

:\Ir .. UREY: The Treasur~r anticipa.ted a lo" of £\J3,000. That would mm'n a lo<S of £.!0,000 for the five llF>nths, but, as a matter of f~act, he has Wlt an increa~.e of £?)0,000 for the five month>'.

:\Ir. KERH : \Vhich makes a difff'rence of £fl0,000 in onr favour.

c\Ir. AI HEY: This i, the first year in which Queensbnd has ·hown out. very well in the n1ntter of t.he collection" retnrned r;ythe Commou­·~\:~<tlth1 as c:nl_lpar,~i with 1:-Tew South \\l'a.les and

•, J<.:tnna. ~t 1.-; ra.LhRr unfo_l:tunate that this year should bn pwkccl out to be tne very year in which the Treasnrer should read a cl!apter from the "Book of Lamentations." To go further-

Ire ~re alrPacly p~ying old-ago vensions to the amount of abont .£1:3;),000 pl~l' anunm. and the Pederal G-overn­!11eut a:e thus compelling thi~ State to pay this heavy 1tem tw1cc over thb year.

That is quite true. It is unfortunate that the expenditu:e ha.-. been d\lplic~'tted; but it is uLterly UllJn~t an.d utterly nntrue to say tlHtt tJ .e extra p:1yment Hi a lo:.:;-; to this Rtate. \Vn nll kt~~)w verfec:~Jy well ~l.Jat next year we shall l•e re;_Je\·ed nf ~hl.~ expencnture, and that thitJ nl(;lley ha.~ s.iulpl,y b~en put u~1 one tide to meet old-ag·e penswns 111 tL~: C(Jll1Ing year. }'~very ce-nt of 1:h1<~t r!l~mey wtll cun1e hack to U8 during the fo.HHVI_ng yPar, .as ''-'8 all know. The plain trnth /' that thm [lnwgmph has h<'en tram eel lll oruer tn CO!l\'f~Y che idea. that the Federal Treasurer has got this State hv the throat an<l is _rnbbing ns as h;:rcl as hP ca~n all the tim'e. I w1ll go n little fmther, and the arroganc·, of the next :--tatement i:-i ~imply incredible~

Thi:::, althon'f;h dt>"eided hy the High Court to bP lc•ral 1s nntlonbtecUy a viuiation of the spirit o( the l~ed~ai eOllt}J:H;t.

The Ffigh C(,nrt., compo~ed of the rnnst eminent ltlrnlnari('::-; in _\w;;tralia~men fnw~d

the le>nglh and bre.1dth of the Cn<u­lHI!l;lxf~.dth for tht"ir f!Jreu::;ic t-ikill and their pro~ fe;.,· .. lunal 'lcmmen--nlen who ha' e rnade ~ reputa­tJ1nt JH1t unly at the bur but also in the St•natt>-­ba \·c nnRnil~wu~l~v d_ecided tha,t the Surplus Re~ veune Ac~ L--i w1th1n the four corner;..; of the Cmlst1tution.

The TllEASl:RlW: It is aumittedly leg-al.

?Ly. AIHEY: And this hombotstic, pragnmli­Cai. ht.~le 1Jolitic.al docunlCnt has the arrog-ance to tell thH Comnu ttee that the Act is a violation uf the ConstituLion.

Tbo T'HE)mm : h that what that little docu· nwnt. c:tlls it, or is it whttt the hon. rnmnber fo.c lhi~bane Sonth calls it?

l\Ir. AilU'Y: Another little remark further fill it: the fi~lno paragraph talks abont the nFed fnr tinancial independence. A.nct at the same tinh~ \Vhctt are nur State Prerniers clamourin0' for? An' tlwy askinb for financittl indepen". dt>nc~? No; ttlEY want financial dependence all the tnne.

0PPOt\ITION :\J E}fBEl<S : Hear, hear !

l\lr. A 1RF:Y: They do not want to be cut adrift fr\)tll the Cmnmnnwealth. They want to hang on a.R lPng as they can; :c~nd ju.-::t before tea ~he Secret;,ry for Lands "aid that what we IVant IS a continuance of the Braddon blot-that is fiWl'lei tl dependence all thE~ thne. . '

:\fr. ILumACRE: And that is what the Premier ha . ..: advocated at three or four Premiers' con­ferenc'?s,

1\Ir. Ail{}~Y: And atJropos of thi.' metter, I w~mJd like to say ngHiu r.hat 1 think 'It h, on1y a fair thing that thb Honsp, ~honld. h;1 YB tinw to cHscnsR the various propm·,ds re Tt'bt1nli~ with the ComnwnwenJth befpre we rise.

0PPOSITIO:-; l\IE'IfBEHS : Hear, hear ! l\Ir .. \IItEY: The l'remier i·· going dovvn tl)

a PreJnicr.::;' conference; a1Hl it \\ GIS st,J.,ted in the Courier the other day that t.he hon. geruJe'!.11an alki~ed that it w~Ls not much use ciiscns-:ing tllebe thing.-; becanRe the pres:.ent propl'l~ttls \V<.;re in­con•plete and ir;choate, and would probably be nwditied; and, therefore. it woul(l be 11() use di:-:~ cnB . ..:ing then1 now. I h,..Jien:! that 8' ntement is "nbstantially correct. The hnn. gentienwn will go down South; there wjll be a conference of Prerniet s; tbey ·will conH~ to c· r! ain conclusions; and the hnn. gentlenH1n will cnn1e Lack and t.dl this Charllber, ~-The Prerui.ers havt> aoTf'C'd to tbi.~ action, and if their proposals ~tre upset it \\'ill le.td to. another conference and great trouble," arHi. he w1ll probably use his party majority to can·y therr1 through. Now, 1 \Yill n&k the Jwn. g·entle~ In an, Is it not a fair thing thnt before tLis ruat ter -thA most irnportant matt.Pr that has he en bd()re this Parlia1nt>nt for the ln~t nine or ten yPars-is discussed by himself and the other Premiers in Melbourne, we should have an opportunity of di~cussing it and gi\·ing our opiniol'r>? The wholP ten<ltmcy of this carping at the Cmnrrwn­wealth is to tJUt matters in a false light. In face oi the fact thttt last year our Commonwealth receipts exceeded :11lex.prctati.on~, tlw St::tternent talks abr)ut a shortrH!P, di~gni~in~ the fact that \Ye got near]y .£00, 000 over and abn:e onr nJos.t sanguine anticipation:--. Jt in~in1uttf's th1.t we hase not received our three-fourth~. T ~lJOnld be very glad harl. we rPceived a gn:at (1enl mote than ·we buse done; hnt, at the samE' tinH", t.he plain truth is th.tt we have received ,£17,000 rnnre than our three~fourth~. Ln_~1-, nncl uot leaRt, i~ predicts a fall of £\10,000 in the Cnm· nJonwu1.lth revenue for this year, \vhilt>, a-:: a matter of fact, we have already received £:3.\000 o1.~er and. allD\'e the amount we nceived f(Jr the samG period uf la>t ye rr. [ :<sk this Cotnmittee i:-; thi.-; a fair (JJ' "-n honest wa'/ of dealing witb the, pre~:;:•nt &ituntiiJT\ a~ tJ~~ tween our~elves and the Cotl\m(m\vealth? l cmne now to deal wi.tl-1 nJrttters th:1t are ~Olllt'­what closer to us even th"n this. I now rical with the ex•ct condition of the finnnccs of the State at the present time. '\Then the Philp Governn1ent were in offiee, the pre:--ent Pn_,utier made an jndictrnen t against them cnncerniPg thP Htate of their finances. That indi(jtr~Jent Wi1:" not an indictrnent on the exit-lte-nce of a d~·ticjt, bPcan~e a deficit mav occur wiLh tlw lw._,t TrPa~ ,c,urer in the world. The indictment was founded on the state1nent that the e;q;enditnre h.1 ri. got out of hand. Even before the calamitPll' deticit of 1001, the hon. gentleman had warnul the then Prenlier that tlH' expenditure wa~ 1nouuting np nut of all proporLion to revenue. I__.et HlP C[lWte

from the speP.ch ma..dP by thA hon. ~entl~n1an nn the Addre,·, in Heply in 1\102-·Hmmml, page 24-

'rhe fact of the 'natter is that tlc late Trea5-nrer-the present PrPmier-did n0t need fedpration to ro;JC'll a defi('it. In ~pite of the fact that during- tJis fom· yPar"' at the Treasnry he received the four largt· ... t reYennr;:" which any QnE:enslaml Treasurer rcccivPtl, it \vas lllalli­fest to anyone that he lva~ rnnning- rlm.vn to the (!ll.>lg­mire of deficit, and as ~L matter of !"act lie got LllC"re in \vlmt one nmy call tbe rcgnlar waY of hnsirw:-;~ l'cfore fpdcratiou eventn:;ttpd at all. (;n 31-"t lhJI'CilJbPr. 190n, he had reached the deficit Shf!'e. On thH.t date he \Y3S £4<10,000 worse oil' than he WH.S twcln~ m· nth-.; before. and had acennmiatrrt an artual deficit. on th~ six months of the vcar of £77.000. That waR onlY fonr months ~fter he lnade hi:-. }financial StatPnwnt"; and nobody wbo knows anyThing about the drougbt will assert that the dronght struck ns sudU.enly bet\rcen tlle delivery of the Financial Statement at the enU of August

Mr. Airey.]

426 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

and the 31st December, lHOO, vrhjle as to federation it httd not eventuated. I believe it cannot be di.:;puted thn.t the ebief ca,u .... es of these two enormous deficits are ln1~k of a.dminlstration and excessive extravagance in public expenditure.

It appears to me as if at !hA prebent time we do not need the approach of }f'ederal tront.Jles, or the existence of a drought, or anything- of th:tt kind, to get our finances into sumething that looks very much like the approach of very serious trouble. If we ouly had one bad season, there is no chubt we should have a very serious calamity indeed. \V e cannot say that that is because we have not been lucky during the lrt:.-,t fnur year~, at all events, in the ruatter of revenue. During the l'Mt four yee,rs of the Philp Administration their revenue was £17,331,1)21- a yearly averagA of £4,3:32,080. 'rake the la,t tour years. The Government have received £19,348,854-a yearly average of £4,837,213. T·hat is, the-re has been an in~ creaoe for the last four years of £2.016,000 over the previcms four years-or an average annual increa;e of £304,000 over the revenue of the pre­vious four years. N~>w, the averoge unprejudiced observer would s:-ty that there is ample romn to ailow ex penditnre to expand if the revenue h",s g-one abead at t,l,a; rate, without allowing the fin-1nceH to drift into fl. precarious condition. Anybod,v who has studied the operations of the revenue know~ perfectly well that revenue riRes foro, while, then it pause<, and then it probably declines. ;\t present ]t ap)Jears to rr1q that \VB

have come to the snmmit of the wave. The buoy­a·,cy has gone out of tile revenue ; hut 1 am a.fra;d the buoyancy has not gene out of the expenditure, :1nd now we nre fo.,ce to face with a very serhus question : How are we going to rfduce our expenditure? How are we going to ~mpplernent and increase our revenue? 'fhere is g 1ing to be" l'(reat difficulty in cutting down our expenditure. Everybody knows that the increase of expenditure during the past few years has been d such "·nature that a lot of it cannot be cut down. For instance, in the last fifteen months we have inJurrf'd expen-.es in reg-::trd to old-age pensions to the extent of about £140,000; and we have introduced an eight-hour sy3tem in our railwnys at a c•JRt of £14ti,OOO; there is an amount of £17.000 for deep sinking, and £7,000 for machinery for prospecting.

Hon. H.. PHILP: Still your party wont more money.

:\Ir. A IREY: AHogether in the last fifteen months we have introduced various innovations costing the country £300,000 per aritmn1. And we havH al.so n1ade a reduction in our fares and freights costing something like £125,000; so that the·w tl8CeR.saries or luxuries- call them what you like-have cost the State something like £400,000. And a number of these inuovations are in the nature of perN manent expenditure. Though next year the old-age pensions will be taken over bv the Commonwealth, the Queensland taxpayer will have to pay just the ea me; and the eight-hour system, I believe, is here for good-at least I hope so. T,, such items one c"nnot raise objec­tion. But the point is that expendituro has been raised by the Government year by year, and now come; the correlative duty of increasing revenue to meet increased expenditure.

::\fr. vV. H. BARNES : Do you propose in­creased taxation ?

Mr. AIRI<JY : The Premier has made finance a speciality ; and I would not condemn him or his Government if I MW in the Financial State­ment any attempt in any way to reduce expendi­ture or to oupplement tb,ol revenue. It is no justification tiJ •aY that the expenditure is a

[ill r. A irey.

praiseworthy object. It is the duty of the Government to see that the revenue is in Si'!ch a state that during tbe current year we are not likely to meet calamity in the shape of a deficit, and that we shall be able to pay our way. (Hear, hear l) Too much expenditure on pmise­worthy objects wi,l bring you to the poor-house· as quickly as too much expenditure <m unpraise­w::.rtby objects. \Vha.t we,s the charge o[ the present Government against their predece-sors? It was not that they spent money on unworthy objects; it wa,s that they spent £2 where they shr,uld have spent only £1, and that they pro­vided no mean3 of supplen1enting revenue. The charge was that they allowed expenditure to grow out of all proportion to revenue. These criticisms of mine would hll to the ground if the Govtrnrnf'nt in thi~ Eina:1cial Sta.tf'ment showed that they wero alive to the diflicnlty <knd were prepared to tneet it. Bnt have tiiey done so? I say they have made absolutely no provi­sion whatsoever. And I go further. I spoke just now about the change in the Premier'& attitude in regarrl to loan expenditure. There is the sarne change in rl:'gard to revenn~-' ex­penditure. The increase in revenue for 1903-6 wa8 £258,000, and thz~ increaBe in rxpendi~ ture £144,000; in 1906-7 the increase in re­venue ""Na;-:;: .£454,000, and the increase in ex~ penditure £18(),000 ;· in 1007-8 the increa•e in revenne was £180,000, n.nd the increase in expenditure £336,000. In the present Estimates we find that the estimated increased r~venue for the current year is £107,000, and the estimated increased expenditure for the Harne period i::; £217,000. In the last two years we find prec'sely the <>ppusite state of affairs compared with the first two years namwl. In lf)0.5-G the revenue increased twice as much as the expenditure;· in 190G·7 the revenue increased two and a-half times as much as the expenditure; in 1907-8 the expenditure went up nearly twice as much as the revenue-still thHe was tt surplus ; and the esti­mated increased expenditure for the pre>ent year is twice as great as the estimated increased revenue. :i'\ot only that, but there is something peculiar about the raiJ.way revenue estimates that I do not undemtand. \Vhen I had them made up first by the experts of the Rail way Departnwnt they showed an increatse on the prt'vioncl yt-ar of £54,000. I tbonght that was not ,;uilicient and I asked the Deputy Commissioner to g-et them to go into the matter again. He did so, >mrl the reply was that he could not see any· prospect of raising the estimate above £54,000. Now I take up these estimates and I find there is an increase estimate of £100,000. In the face of tbat I think there is one item in regard to which I can say I am very much afmid the estimate of revenue will not be realised. As the hon. m ern· ber for Barcoo reminds tne, we have the ex­perience of last year, when there was an inflated estimate, and the amount realised was £77,000 less than the estimate. Probably it will be said: that the estimate is an honest estimate; but I repeat that £54,000 was the utmost I could obt,ain. Comparing the expenditure estimated for the present year with that of 1906·7, I find an incr<ase of £678,000, whereas the estimated revenue shows an increase of only £287,000. That is to say, in two years the expenditure has gone up nearly £2 10s. for every £1 5s. of the increased revenue. Anti if I take the monthly returns for 1908-9, I find the expenditure has risen by £274,000 as against an increased revenue of £50,000. The actual rioe is £84,000, but, of course, £34,000 of that really belongs to last year. Tbe increase in expenditure this year has gone up by the to one in proportion to the in­crease in revenue. At the same time I am quite prepared to admit that there may be circum·· stances in connection with the monthly returns

Supplp. [7 DECEMBER.] 4.27

that may mitigate that. J: belieYe there has been expendit.nre in the railwa,y"3 th~Lt makes that e~timatP of expenditure ctn in:Hatf'd one.

The THK .. .l.~t:rn:n: 1 t is not rer•urring. Mr. ATREY: .Tnst so ;bntdeductirw; £1JO,OOO

or £70,000, eYen then the situation Is very bad indeed. T ~pn~.::t.:· just nn\V about the lnaC­tf'r of raih\ .1y estimate!<-, aud I drew atten­tion tt) the fact tbat thPV were rai-;t'd sowe £30,000 on~r and abnYt'~ wf~at they ,-~..·Pre when I !eft the T:easury. That nlTY, of cour!:'e, be a,n none;;t e::;~Imatt~ by the exp~:rt.1 uf the- dPlJ.trt­rnent; bnt, as I said just n<nv, I saw the Deputy C\nnrni:-;.~inoer three tinH-'N, and othPor cxpf:-rLs, and the Deputy Cunnni..;:::-ioner told 111e explicitly they could I'Ot raise thA e tintatA be' ond that nmonnt. I notice', in 1~)03, the Preln{er~ t~pe;:tk­ing· on t1npply aLdut LhiB very practice, said this-

The Trt>a:0: 1Ue-r '1'110 hmnps np bi...; E3tilmt.t(<> o! revenlH~ more than there is a11y tl·n~nt:ahle g-ronnd fo1· expe.etin).!: i·. s.hnwiu~ the way t.o cxt:.·:tvng<llH'e: wlli1e tlw 'l'rea~nrer who keeps (l•Jwn hi~. J:~umalcs of rcYetme to what h f:tlrl_Y likely to he n•cei-.;;·rtl is at least t.aki11g a to e,·onomy by rai:-'in~ 110 fal!5C hopp.;; of revenue to receive<l and if tile ehange of l;ovcrumPltL has done nothing it h:l!:' stopped the gi vin~ to the House at tttf' lY ginning of the tlwmch.l year an es.timate of 1·evemtc which tlu~ {;o,·ermucnt. lH1.rt no anticl1mtion would be reecivrd, anrt leading- the Hon <: into ex~tnt.va­gant expenditure, aml then winllin;.i Hp the yea.r with an enonnous dtdiPit. . . . . . I han~ ed1l<~1lce in my llaiHl that the late Trca.:::-nrer \YHS 110t hnmping' his <·:::1llllate ol' land revenue He ~ill etJtillntc of hmd n:ve111W from experts ill Lnn<ls D<~pnrtJnPut-an e~ti1uate l>:u ko-:<l np by opillions Ill the Tl'Ca-;ury-awt yet. despite that fact, tlle hon. HJembcr added £tll,0(·0 1o :-;neh an anll. hrought H down to tlli II0n:-e .. t'i tlH~

for the year. [::\tr. Il-\ltDACHl·:: better be ::;aiel ahout tlw <~onJhHmce

tlmt.J

It may 1h that thi;.:; cotn lw j1.~tified, but I \vould like tn p1dnt out thi~: Th8 total ren'-nt_:-1 of the St~tte "bow: l-li! inttt'-1Re ( f £107.000. Of this the ruilw ·ys f.: how a ri~f~ <'n tl'"'.~~P li~~tirnatf s n£ £100,000, but I a,m Vt--\ry rnnrb afr,tid thnt fnlly one-balE nf thnt i~ :not ja~+itied, nnd T "\Y}ll ttll you why I sn. l to-~k n1' tbe uwnrhiy re· turn~ the (}:;_,./ fnr ".:\ oven1bt->r, and I find th~1t thf' railway reve-nue for the, tin_~ ntnntl1~ {)f la~t ;yc1r wa" £M\)!),000, antl the raihvay roY:>ll1It: for the fi\'e nwnth:-; of this \Vas ".tK/8,000. T11ac is to scty, there has a ri~e in five rnnntb~ nf on]y £~1,000 in the revenue. Xot cmly is thi;;; th--' ca,-;e, bnt there i;-; n decreasP for the month of Nnven1ber of 110 le~~ than On thP~2 indicltions-nn r.he indication von c-tn c.n1y geu a rise of £\J,OOO of l'e\'enue 'in ii.ve lnonthR-1 cannot for the life t-f 1ne F;f'P hnw von are goi1_1g to get an incrPa.-;8 of £100,000 fnr ·thH year. ln my hnnP~t opinil)fl, there is a te~~t.t un~ justifiable inflatinll of the railway revenue. ln looking 01rer the Fh:ancicd StateJneut I ( dme to another pa~.~age wl1ieh .say::; with rt'ganl to rail­\va.y revenue-

£100.U(J() looks n lar~e inrrea~e to antit~ipHtP, bnt \Ylien it is remember!--;d that during the IA~t. !lve ~·ears tlw inerca~t! of OHI' rail.\Yay rev,,·nne has h2en ,Cfit2.000. aml that la~t. year the aetual inereas.e wm; £117.000 dr..:;pitc tile h-t('t. that OYPr J.::sn 00 l 'vrcs lo:o;t to thL Tren,­·"'ury throngh the mdnt'tion of 1arc:-; a.nd freighh flurin~ lhe la:-:t eig'ht months of tJw Year as compared with eorrespoBding period or 1\H·G-7; \Yhou. !urtliH', it remembered ho\Y railway mileagt' is int·n~<J ,jng, and that v.·e h~-tYe ev0ry prospect of anotlwr excellent seasoll, it "Will readily he admitted that the eslhnaJed increa:;;e 0f £100,000 is, after all. an CXC'Cl!dnigly moderate Pf'timate.

That paragraph i" written on the a~wmption that l'<ulway revenue, if the tin1es R-re fairly good, goes on rising indefinitely. Butweknowitdoesno ~nch thing. \V e know that it rises for a periocl; that 1t paubes, and that it probably decline'. It doce not go on rising inrletillitely, c1nd, in the fc.1ce of what I have just said, anyone will see t!mt the fact that \Ve have had an increa<:<e for five yea re- is

no guarant-:>e that tbi:; incroase will conlinne. \Vhac do 1ve Hnd now'? \Ve find l1y the mout.hly figures that we have arrived ::tt thn.t period of pauo;;:e--in five rnonths the revenue only in­cre<1"ed Ly £D,OOO. The raihvay experts iu­fon"ed rne that for the whole year they did not anticipate any gn' tter li,-.;e than £:30,000. The figure>:, sn far, C1mfinn thtir l-'redietion--in fact, do not corne np to their prediction. The 'freasnrer h::-Te taJks abont the increase in ruikage helping hi1n. _All I c,'tn say is, the iuereaso of n1ilea.ge is a, grf:at dea-l n1ore likely to fi"'Pll hi~ PxpendituJP than to lwlp hiB r:.1venue. 1 am fully con vi need. of ow-~ thing, and that i,..-:., that the ril"ie of £lOD,OOO, \Vhich Wi'll"i con­demned by the l)e,sr. n1on in the H_,lhvav 1JetJ<1tt­rnent when I was in UI8 Trensury, w.ill tH;t:; be realised. The ruvt:mue of la:-.t year V/.;S £77,000 Lell)w the e;.;tinW,tf--'. and I ba.Yd gond rea . .;on to think that the revet;ne of this ''ear will probably dis:qJpoint H-!e Tn~Ltsnrer nud ti1P Vremim·. lt is nor, n::-;nal to stnile over n }r]uancial Staternent, bnt 'Lhere are on" 0r Lwe humoron~ things abnut this Statement tu which I will draw the al;ten­tion of the 1--iuus,:. u~~nPrallj\ when any Trea­t:nrer gets nearly £100,000 0' er his estin1ate in a, dcpc~r ment, he rejoic:r-";, jnbilat::.:: with exceed­ing great jo:v; ;'l.nd if he gets le~s than his esti­mctte by £100,000, he df'plores that fact. J3nt in thi FiiHtncial St~tterrwnt the prncednrei· reversc.~d. _Here i;.:; a paragr[lph rejoicing ove1· the Rplendiri Rta.te of the :-)r.~lUJ raihvays-huw they gave n~_, an incr,.;.se of £11/,000, and tht->n -..ve ha,\e tive or six paragraphs ch·ploring the d.:creaRe in the Comrnonwudth colh~ction~. 11-,he fnnny pa..rt of it ib thi~: Our railwa,ys gav8 us f."/7,000 below thP E~tiuuttE·s, and the Commonwealth gRve us .tOS,OOO, tJ.king in tbe £3-i,OOO, oYt·r the rstiruate, aucl tilt>rt_~ is a Jot of LdllOltation abnnt the Connnnnwealth and rejoiciq.; ;tbnut the rni1-W8yf'. The phin truth i~ that, if then:: is hy any chance <-J., t<Urph.1;-; t1lis ye:-tr--- ·n'i hnncstly I do not think there \\·ill bo nnch cba1JC, of a ~urnlu~--the Tren-mrer ',vill ha.vt• t1) t hculi;;: thf-'l C.H~nn,_nwealth collect.iorw if he],.; able tu realise a ,;nrplu,, On pag;e 11 of the :Financi>Jl State­mPnt I find tills :;tat<!rneut-

I think thb e~::timatc-e,-.tiHlrt tr·l ..... nrpln~ tJ,~o:~ .... js, on the whole. a saLJ nth;, aJHl \Yill. H tlte tJrc~cnt pros­pects contiuu , be horne out by re:::.nlts. Three or four day8 before t.hit-1 Statemt'nt ·was n .lJ ther-~ cmne out a mont~1ly Htn.tenJeut of our finance-:, and that. ,...;t.atement shov,·ed th<:1t v.re wt>re £HJO,OOO worf:ie off than fur the cotTt>SPOJHl­ing period la.~t year. Thi~:; 1s et vPry, v<~ry ~·L~l'i1ms position, and if I take the £:31,00(} of la·'t year's rno11e,y that WL~ received this ye<tr :tnd :~ubtn~ct it frnrn t.he revenne~ns I hcwe a right to do iu order to g-et at the actual btate revPnue fln:j ex­l'fmrliture for this vear~I ;:;hall find Lh<-'tt we are x22"!,000 worse (,·ff tban we were at the ~ame tirne lf'u::>t year. r.rhi~ ptLragraplJ ::-.ay~ that if the pre,...;ent prospPcts continue \-Ve are going- tu have a surpln,. "\ll I ctm say is, thttt if the !•resent prof3p::ctf' art', a.s i~ . ..,hown by the mo!lthly re· turn:-;, that n-e are going tn the bad to the extent 0f £...1:0,000 in one rnont.b, I dn no~-. see how it is po~::;ible to get a :·mrplus at the end of the y"ar. T!t.o Treasurer mey my that these lHOnthly statetnents are not rt'liable-, and I quite agree that they are !l(Jt-that they have to he taken with Ct'rta.in allow:1oces .: but at thA s:1me time they are :1 sort of guide ur finger­post to \Vhat i~ coming. I can re1nernber the tin10 when t.be Premier used to nwke a cornrnent on every rrwnthly statement to tihow what it indicated. Nuw, I will take the final para,;raph of the Statement, in which reference is made to the fact that in the year 1D07-o expenditure rose by nearly £2 to £1 as compared with revenue. There is sorne justification for thnt increase in expenditure, because in spite of it we c~nte out

Jfr. Airey.]

428 Suppl,y. ~ASSlt~YIBJ_jY.j Supp1_1;.

at the end ,,f the Y• ar with a surplus. This paragrapb snyti nnthinf.,;· t~t all fl.bont the fact that; in tile ye~r 1B08 D th4j e:-;tima,t.ed expenc1itnre '.vill 1·ise <kl 2 tn l a.-; cr,nlpar~d \Yith the estinw.teJ revennr. Th(j P.stimatt- ri _xpenditnre wlll he f~G~7,000 higher than the expenditun~ fur 1:107 ~8, v:hile the rPvenuo ]s only estimatr-d to incr::a~n duriug the ~<1me p nod by £281,000. That is td say, then:: is an e~timated rise of Hf,"ll'ly £:3 10··~ in eXIJPndjtnr( for e\:ery £1 of estin1ated increase in revenup, ~Iy cmuplaint i~, nt)t that the expenditnl'e L; nm up tu that ""tPnt, Lut that the Gll\'ern1nent hati r·~isP:l the expendi­ture to sneh Hll extent that nulebS ,~<·e d'!al with t1Je dif-crepaucy between 0xpendi~ure and revem1e at nneP, we are on Hw \'erg-8 of seriow-5 finUlJ.CI8l truuble. Th~ SLvtGIHtmt does rwt n1e!1tion the LlCt tlv~t this year, according to the lJclon,tJlly return.s, t~H?; .PxpenlHt:u·e ha.:·.:; guue UI~ about. £:> fur PVr rv il Incrta~e 1n ren_,nuP. L know the uwnU.dy ~·l'turn:s art> unt au infallible criterion in tbe~n rnattPr~. I know that-. you may deduct "Oill>l £GO,ooo, £1'0,000, or £8o;ooo frmn the expenditure, hut Mll ppq~·il1lg" yoLl d\l

that, even tLen the situation j'~ n;>ry ba,d indeed. I have rnade the cr,rnparis\Ht of tho;o;H fonr yt~al':-l ~i1nply to dra\v a.tte-nt1~~n to th' clettdlv drift, that li.as bet>n on dnring the last ~,,.,:~1n~ eighteen and to furtber r!rn.w attt~nti(m to thP fnc~t th~1:; f'X}JPDditnre a, it i·; llO\V is goin 1Z' tn overbaln.:H_;e 1l V8li1H\ JTJd

unlet:s \Vt· takP Hction very ~non tn thiN .state of aEa:r::; a financial cullaps~~ i,·.:. ,lJ)e. If I had re1uained in Ptiietl a.:-; 'rrea..;tn·er ] \va-; prepared to -grapp1e with thnt. situ,.' ion or lF 1.\'8

the po.s:ition. I arn prepart>d to ~ay tbat it is the duty of the Govt~rnrnenc t.o it-~tfu1t it i" the houndc'n duty of rnent to eithe-r r._~duce expendit1~re or re\.-·enue. But a}>parentl~\ judging .F'iormcial ~tr-tteme-nt, the (}uve-nnncmt do not con~ider it their duty to do either the CJne thing or the other. Tne truth is that the . ..:tate of the finance-; iR eminentlv un,.;ati:·.:factorv. 'fhe other day ..\I:r. \\'". EL IrvinP, a 111an \\' l~o was

10nce Prem.ier of Vie~nria, uncl w_ho k;~ovvs .as

lnllCll abont finance· . .-: a.:-; 1n \' JCtiWPl,

)Jointed OUt in the }'edP!';J[ f,ha,t the S~at-·s \-vnre cb:ifLing- on to u, tinarieial cataract. AnyunP \Vho has stndiPd. tLP nw.tter c ,n come to no o~he.r conclu~ion. In a year or two we rr1ay h·tYe serious e-rnbarrasi-lruents with t.h~ Conurwn~ wealth Pculin,rnent, anri. what nrrangetnent~ Rre we Ill<tking to ll1f'Pt thof;e l"Htbarra:-<SlllAnt:-;? B8~ fore thtwe ditficnltier~ conte npun u~, we ~ba.ll b,1 ennfronted wiLh ernbarra..,~ments of onr O\,:n

nHtking. I 1ucntiuned just now certain cc•n­clu:·dons drawn from a otndv of the tnonth1v 1

Tr8a:3ur,v retiL n~-:. In tbe EStirut'..teH it will b'e obi-l:(:•rved thq,t tlu Tre:1'-'Urer'::o f'stimattl (If lXpen­d.iture .show::-; r, tr.tal increa~e of £21~,000 for t!Ji..;; year. rrhe I1\(l1lth 1: .. return~ for five HlontJu..; ::--J10w an increaw of £.'27-±.000 over :tud the ex-

tbe fir:-:G fiye wonths year. that the 1i;;t1H'e . ..; in 1nout-hlv

are :not rtn inLtllible criterlun 1;f the tinalJC8' ()£ the State. They [H'e nnt. 13ut; a· I ha n~ fl l-rcndy ~tl.idt 'l.:tu ded net £80,000 or £!)0,000 frotH Htl) 8 and y.m. still il:L\'P. n f,i£:hl.Y di.,~tMtrous of thing~ }JeforP \Y,..hr~t ti--:n:-.P i:-; the1·e in l-'tatin;.; in the S;v:>t'c:h th:"""t w have a total inen;a:'je £~17,000 in f<Jr the )'P\l',

\vhen the ntouthly rPtutn:-::; for· five lll•lllt-ht~ :-;hnv·/ a larger incr.'a,'\r> thap that·: The n~~·m·,...,..; in tlH_l nwnthly ::;t:tt,err~ents ~hnw thnt that ..-uat·"~Hen~ must be gravely inc ll'l'ect. I H'HH~lnLer the }~on;~the Pre~1ie'r talki~g -"' qne yea1 :-; about the 1' eder:l.l freasurer S :-;t LtPillPl1t,, thl'n said thrLt whc;n thc> }~ (1f'ral Trpa,~urer 111ade his Pstimate you shnnl wilit until you sf.nv the returns f~Jr the fir.:; three tur.nth~ uf the

[Mr. A.irey.

year before (lec;~Eng whetht"r t h::-;,t ·tirnn.te 'V;l.S

like-1"')7 to i1•; reali~t·d ur no:-,. The hnn. gr-::ntle~ umn~~:,}tid that with regard to the nwnthly re~ turns for thr8e lwmth~. J ha \-'e trLken 111nnthly l'eturn:-; for fi '.-'e HwnUlf.;, Hon. 1nernLers 1rw.y say _it is p_erfect]y true ~)l;~,t expt>ndittn:e gots on lucn-~t~II•g, bnt) pernnp::; 1 re\·enue IS IllO\'in __ " at the ."'an:e ti1ne. .A.~ a nl~·-tter of fact, the n1onthly returns Khdw a ri:;;.h of £8-±,000 in H-'\'Pnue for tl:e fi\·e nwnth,::; Lnt of that snm £3-J-,OOU really belm:g tL) l;t;-,t ye:tr; so tha.t the increase in ren_'nue is ooly £;)0,000, \'dill" the lncrea~e in expenditure i..; c:t27-!,000. .And e\·en if you talte £80,000, o£:!10,000, "" nuo,ooo off that anwunt the outlo•1k i~ t>till verv !:'eliottf4. _,.\t thiR tirne last year theTrt:a~ure:r bad £t{~-!-,OOO to·,vard~ hi.3 intere::,t Bill. This yext, at the t'nri {.f Nonmber, he; haR only £(i4!l,OOO '' tbat he i" £1901 000 wor~e off than he \V<:L3 same time last ye~r. Then, if you dt'duct .£3-J,OOO, which belongs to la;-;t year's revt~nue--

The PRE)IIEH: Y uu a, re going ba.ck oYer your noLes.

1\Ir . .c\.TREY: I know this i,;; a nntP the hem. gentl~man doe:'; not like. l an1 Ilot going back over rny note~, hut thls i~ such nn im~~ortant ma.ttel' thnt I have gone over it two or three tirYJ8:'. ] f the hon. gentlen,:Hl vvnnld Iike to know where J learnt that tric:k of l'f'llf'l.ting an important ~tatemPnt two Ill' th"!f'c~ time~, J may infon:n hi1n that T ha(l the horwur tn learn it frorn himself. (Law:hter.) \\'!J·1t have the {;uvenm)ent nl<Jde Ln nle-f't The~l f'it rl.own and work np their EstinutP~­and I think their B~:~timntr.; are in many re~pect~ errtinent1y unreliable, et~pfeially th · e:-;tirnate.-;; of expenditnrP, 1n face of the rnonth1~r retnrns-nncl they calmly predict a ~:nrplnH. [ t ?LllYPHA JookB at the tew1eney of the last. t\ve~vc oe eighteen monthti l'E'\'utlCd in e.::-:pencbtnre anrl. revenue, and if h'=' lotlk~ nt the experience of thr la"t fin~ nwnth~) he can come only t11 one that i::; that·. \VP are .ste di3aster ant! deficit. If the down wlth finaneial 1Jt'C1TJ1J..:;al;-'., we propose to incren.~e the snhmitt.i11g- ROnl>:> ,<.:cherue for tha.t purpose, c;oul.J N~ly any-thing-. Bnt. the plnin fact, th;JJ·, they have no such propo,, •L As :t uwt,~.er of Ltct, if \Ve take these ver~r }::::tima!:.c-·-;, and c1nnpare the actual expenditure \vith the actna.] rt--vfnll8 for this year-:Jeriuctin:.; the £:1-±,000 '\\+ic:h really be~ long.-:: to 1.'1st year'~ revenw.:.~-\\0 sh<-111 tind thn,t there i' really n deficit of £2!1,000.

The PHK."\IlEH.: )..._re you ."nre '!

}ir. . .All{.E-~{: ~The hwL1ue1nherknowl-) vvhat I ~ay is 1h:rfect.1y trne-. 1f he turns to S]r \Vrn.

LYile 1 ~ B111l~et tclbl<"H be vvia fi11d [D p. m. J he d~h s not g-i Ye the Cnm.n1on wealth

ren'nne last- vear -" O,OO:l,OOO, l::ut as £1,031 1 000. J-fe pntl) tl'w.t £:j!,OOO on.

The -PHlC\tiEH: 1~ not the 1noney in the Trt:':.l~ury thi~ year?

I\Ir. ATREY: It;, in the Trea.ury, hnt I say thi~--

The 'fHEASCRF::R: You antlcinate the nwnev i . .., goi!Jg tP run away? ~ · ~

"'h. AIJ:U:Y: I d<J not anticipate that. li

'\Ve t:l kt' thP actnal revenue and actual expencli~ tnn::; fnr this yea.r-and that le:; =:t fnir way of putting t hings-~then thLlre i~ a, deficit on these very }~:-:;tin1ate.'). \Vhat prepnrations are we ruakiPg- forthP trc~ul•le~ in the nP.tlr fntnn.•? _ Tbe vrepar;:; .. ti('ll i . .., this: There is a steady boun:tin the expenditure o[ the State, and we have come to a kind of clt·nd cnlrn in the revenue. Iu the hst paragrr1pb e:d the Sta.t~ment., we find that the Treasurer is appealing tn the House to help hin"!. How can the Hous-3 help bim if his own Esti-

Supply. [7 DEcEMBER.] Supply. 42[1

n1ate:,, ;.;h(nv th;_1,t he doeR not Y\'ant help ; if they ~bcnv nl) do::'-:-.i.i'c to grapple \vith hig- prn-b~em befnre t'"W State-how eau tht~ Hou~c help him if thi:-; lt~inar.cial t)tatt•lllP~t <.tnd the,:;;e :E:-ti­Jnate.-J simply indi.:ja'.e une thing, and the con duel~ of the Governrnent by cb.y onJy indicates one thing-thr~t i:-s, f'!uu desire of the Goven1ment L" to pt!.8-' thes.e l•:.,tituates, to get into recE2s, and aiterward~-the ddngo?

O!'rosrriox 1\]_r::.Hn~ns : l-Ie::tr, lwa.r !

The PRE~flEI~ \\y. JZldstnn, Rod.> hampton): I think uught to cun.1pli1nent. the Trea~nrer-~

:\lr. 1tL\.;s'X interjr_·cted.

: 1 the hon. lea.,.-e

::\Ji. ~\IANS: \\Thy dun~t y Hl beJ-LtYD your )elf.

The CJ-L--\.li:: L\:S : Order !

Tbe cougratulatt th'-' on tiw tory Finttnci<:ll :Statt:r~1E'1.1t he has the Comn,i::;tu>, fron1 thP cisru of thu le;id 1· UplJOsition---~~r at an.\' rate if not a frlend ly Cl itiei:- m, <"t..t !ea .... t a critici.srn th~1 t rq_}pear:-: to have notbing bitter in lt, or to have charb·ed tlle TreJ.SUrf'r \Vith rmythjng lJar~ ticula,rly wrong. ..:\nd snpplenwuti:ng that, jndg­lng fron1 the SIY-:t-ch just delivered ~~,y the ex:.-Trea~-Jurer -a <'qJr;arcntly carefully pre-J-!<tred, even ns it4 clever phra~.es m1d its adjectives) i.'::Hi l-vglnn1ng with the stateinent that thL; Ji'inancbl :::3tatenlent wuH <:t clear rnis­repre.-Jentatiun of ~he position.

:\Ir. AIREY: :JnHtso.

The PHJ~)JIEl~: No\v, no n1ore ~erious charge ca.n he nwde agair.st a 'freasurer than that he coruf8 do\\'n to this H(Ju~EJ .:mln11itting a Statement that is a clear rni:')represcnbttion of the po>ition. ·

2\Ir. AmEY: That is what you said in 1903.

The PRE~II11::R : _A TreasurPr, or a Govern­nlent) rnay be guilty of n1any offe-nces in regard to the finances uf the cotmtry, but tbere is llJO

:.tny excn::;e for the Governrnent, and there iR not any excuse for t.he TrGasurer, who is guilty uf placing before thb Cmmuittee a clear misrepre· sentation of the po,ition.

~lr. _A_IREY : ~Chat is 0ne of your phrases thrown at tbe late Government.

'rhe PREJ\lll~R: I want to agsnre the Com­mittee, and I want to assure Queensland, that if there is any mi~rf'pcesentation of the :financial posi­tion of Queensland in this Financial Statement, I do not know it, and I am quite sure th,;t the Treasurer does not know it. (Hear, hear \)

i\Ir. AmEY: \Vh:tt about your statement with regard to the Commonwealth?

The PRl<~ii.IIER : That is not the kind of statement I am 'pealdng about. (Opposition laugbter.) The Treasurer may give expression to a multitude of wrong opinions on the -Financial Statement-a matter of error nf judgment-as he may do in any epeech in this House; but that is not what is meant when it is said here that the Treasurer has given a. clear n1isrepresentation of the position. It is mennt tbat the Treasurer is trying to deceive this House as to the finance" of the country.

The TREASURER: Knowingly.

The PREMIER : And if it does not mean that--

l\1r. MULLAN: It means incompetency.

The PREMIER: If it does not mean that, what does it mean?

)tlr. _\.rHEY: That stfl.b:ln1ent about the Conl­IlldH\Vt:alth--it i.~ <"t 1nere triuk to hiUe th 1 fact;-:..

Tho : It i8 a. 1nere statPlllL.lt of faet. cttnno-r; :-:ho\v tlut it is anythir1g- e:se.

The PJlE~IIEH .. : I wnn't; he Jerl away frmn '' anG the to nnder~

the p11sit.!nn. Tt·e like en-;ry n1cmh:'r ()f the Counnitt1_ E', lll<tY

nres:-:~iun to \Vh t hon. u1e1Hb ~rs lll:iY

~vbat rnav 8\'Ut"- b~.:-·--an urror1eous s~at<-:rnent; l;ut that "is not tht~ su.1ne kind of 11ffence as a. Tn :l,._,Hrt?J: l1own to this .Hou:->e twd 1nal:::ing a. c~l. .;.:_· u[ th<:-'. f-jna.n-c:ial lJO~;;tion of Queen~la.nd. n1ore Rf.:.lriouti duu·,--e 1e 111 ,_de against n. Tn,asnrer, 0r rtkclin:::;t a t~nd I submit th<'lt the ex-Tre :-;urt-r lu . ..; fa.il rl to justify the 11:-;ing of :-sueh (fTL::ar, heJ.r !) lie \VHs very str(\11g on p.)int that the e.:q;endit11re frc.ll~H ::·..;u,~ernber, t->ince ne left oilice, had gu:arl 1llJ BllOl'lllUUSjy.

~Il.', ..:-\.IHEY: Xo; I took five month:?.

The PR_E\IlJ~R: 1-Ie y·nts particular tn name ; .. ;·-oveinb':r-that it had w~ne up sorne, £80,000.

Tae TRf~A:-J"C"IlEH; And compared it \Yith last Xovemter.

ThA l')L-=t.E~\1IEl{: ,·\.rd cornp:tred .i~ wit-.h la~t Xrn:embl'r. \Vh::n I ](,ok at the expPndit~;re of th.H during- the tilne the hon. g- ntle-

mrer, 1 find jn~t the :-lanh; thing. nn incre ,''e, &s cmnpn.,ted

n1onth in the previous. £200,000 per Inontb,

\Yhat I complnined about was that ydtn· Estiin:ttMK dill not tally with the Ul,.,nthl~- n~,lut·uR-that is the point.

Gon:m-;;,r:E);T :\JE)fEERS : Oh, oh ! The PREl\IIEl~: I am pointmg ant. that this

ex-TreaRurer-whn is "e~1~ ,, about a month-who i3 nut of t.fH 'rreasury ::tbout a Inonth-~

An Ho);Ol:RABLE l\1E~.IBER : He might be in again, directly.

The PRE:\IIETI: He hopes to be, but I do not think there is much chance.

.Mr. AmEY : Don•t be too sure, now.

The PRESII.ER: This ex-Treasurer, who clearly shuwol-and I could not fail to notice that when he n1:1.de whn.t he considered some ~trong points or clevPr remark) he would turn about to the Labour pa.rty and smile-(l·ughter)--

::\Ir .. AIHEY: lie learnt that trick from you. (L>u1ghter.)

'rhe lJREl\IIER : And the Labour party would smile back. (Laughter.)

:i'IIr. ~1CRPHY : You are smiling now.

The PREl\HRR: I do not blame them. I think it muo;t have been amusing to them, be­cause they could ,t help remembering that they were smiling back with the ex-11 reasurer, \vho was condemning the financial policy of the Go­vermneno in which he had himself been Trea­surer up to a month ago. He was a rrwmber of that Government for four or five years, and \Vas as much responsible fur the present financial p:>~ition as I arn.

Mr. AmEY : N ''· I am condemning this Financial Statement, for which I am not reepon­sible.

The PRE:\IIER : I will just reply to that. I will just perhaps amuse the House by telling them something-~

:Mr. CoY:-<E: \Vel!, smile across here every time. (Laughter.)

The PREMIER: The hon. gentleman charges the Treasurer, in inserting that last paragraph in his Statement, with this offence-he Raid this

Hon. W. K idston. J

430 Supp1,y. [ASSEMBI,Y.] Supplp.

\Vas the rc1son in the mind of thP Trea~urer when he put that paragraph there-that he wanted to draw attention frmn tho:~ financing of the State for the htst eighteen months-when, as .c m"tter of fact, the hon. gentleman himself \vas Treasurer moHt. of the tirne.

1\llr. AnmY : N' o, I wa" not. That is untrue. I wa' not Treasurer most of the time.

Tbe Pl~EMIER : He ,.,,id tho present Treasurer was trying to Hhiel({ bimHelf-­

lVIr. AmEY: That is not true. l\lr. K"RH : l•'igbt fair. .i\lr. l>LIXN : He neve,· coulcl fight fair. Mr. ,._.\.TREY: I was only rrrcasurer for eight

months.

The P RE:\IIER: Really, the hon. ~entlernan is nwst <U1n1:-~ing. }fe went fnrtfwr. He did not only imply tlut tl1e Trea-;urer wr~s CO\'ering- np son1ething, attd tbn,t thJ Treasurer was neglect~ ing his ma.nifest duty, and had pnt in this pa.ragraph to take mer11hers of this CunnnitteR off the trail, hnt he F:ilid sor11ething else. He saicl that if he had retnained ttt the rrreasury he was prepared to deal with the situation.

Mr. A mu: Quit.e t!·ne. An OPPOSITION :\lEMBmt: Or ulse resign.

The PRE:\IIEH: \Vho saiu "(~uite true"' .:.rr. "\.mEY: I diu.

The l'Rl>~c,lTER: \Vel!, all I can say is that the t:Oll. gentleman v,'J,R Trea::tn·er up to nbout a nwnth ago-up tr1 the rniddle of October1 at any rate-and he had lime enongh to deal with the sitnatlon.

1\lr. AlHEY: You know very well \Ve never touched the financial sitne1tion. You were too busy funning your coalition. There is no doubt you a1e a. nH:an m-:n. (I..~aughter.)

The PRJ'~l\IIER: I mention the,;e things because I want to show lVbat I think nnwt be fairly a11parent to hon. n1ernbers of thi.-. Corn­mittee, rs well as to people ontsidu--that tbe hon. gentlernan's critieisnno~ of the financial policy of the Government are entirely pv,ing to the fact that he i.:; di.-:~atisfied with a certain action the PTelTI_ier has taken, and he has gone over to the Oppositirm. There was nothing· about this while ht was Treasurer.

11r. AmEY: That i' untrue, absolutely untrue.

'l'he PREl\IIKE: 'l'here was nothing at all about it.

:i'vir. AllrEY: That is absolntely nntrne.

The CHAIR:HA::\: Order, orrler!

The PHEMLB'R: Here is the undisputable fact that during this financial year he was Treccsurer, from the 1st of .July to th~ middle of October, the months in which the J~stimates are usualJy prepared. ...._4_s hon. men1bers are aware, ]t is customary to have the 11~::3tin1ates tabled in Au,;nst, and had it not. been for the accident that I waR out of the State--

}..1r. ~fENKINSON: Accident? Prerneditated. J'vlr. \Voons: It w'" no accident.

The PREMU;R: It was an accident so far <tS

the l>~stimates were concerned-the J~stimates would have come in the usual time in August. The hem. gentleman was Trea ;urer till the middle of Octoher-al! these months in which he says himself he was prepared to deal with the matter. ·well, he did not deal with the matter.

Mr. MunPHY: How conld he• Mr. AIREY: How could I when the Premier

was away? Mr. JE~KI~SON: Yon had him padlocked.

(Hon. W, Kidston.

The PRK\IIER : \Yhen the Dre<ent l'rea­surer we.nt to the Treasury bP. four;d there tha.t th.e Estimates were prep<tred showing " deficit of some £H,OOO.

GOVJ!;ttN}!h:~n· l\fE}JBERS: Hear, h~>er ! Mr. ArnJ<;y: Quite trne.

The PJioEMIE!{: ·whatever offence the pre­sent Tre>1"1rer may be g-uilty of in bumping up tbe expenditnre, he certainly cut down the expenditure which the hun. gentleman had on his E:-:;tin1atcs, although there \Vere sorne itBin:-:-; \Ve hacl to increase.

l\1r. K;;HR: He cut down the railw>ep< agdinst the advice of the experts. Yon cannot get aw:ty from that.

'The PR1,~MIER: The hon. g·ontlen1c.n wh" interrnpb llle-the hon. n1ernber fur Harcoo­rnay haYe betrayed tWtllY Cabinet secrets before he left the Cabinet; bnt he eannnt betray any f'ince he has left the Cabinet. (Guvernment laughter.)

.:\fr. }lANN: He will leave that for you. Mr. Kcam : Yon have enoug-h with you who

will betray you. 1'-Ir. AmEY: They will lJetmy you, too.

rrhe :£l ~{1-<~:\IfER: \Vhen the pre~rnt Tre;t­f'urer t.O(Jk office a::; rfreaSltl'el', the posit ion wa.':i as I stu)"ed. '::Pbe .E.~tirrmter; for the year-­

Several n1e1nbers interjecting.

The ClL\.UC\IAX : Order, order ! I should he ghKl if hon. members wonld refrain frmn Hl­terjeoting. So far the debat,3 ha~ been charac­teri:-;ecl with the utmo:,t good tPrnper, and llH~lll­ber . ., ha Ye ab~tained fnirly well fnnn interjecting. and l hope the Chief NeCreta1y wia be given an opportunity of pre:5entin,~ his case withO'..lt inter­ruption.

Nir. KEHH: I bupe he will put his case truth­fully.

:',lr .. TEXKllS'SO'i: How can he?

The PRE:\liElt: The Tre;1..;1uer found the }~~timnt.e:-1 practic.dly crnnpleted, ancl showing- n. shortage of £71,000. It was necessary to have Hornc revision of thPtn, a11d t}E· whnle thing was gone into by the 'rreasurer, and he found that in ~pite of the shortage of £74,000 there w.ts a little matter ,>f some £15,000 more to he placrc1 nn the E-;;tima,tes. It wa~ nPces·;ary tu have this little item pbced on the J>:stinmtes, and the Trea.o::un~r had to do it. I''or instance, one of tbe Clnnplaints \Vhich the hon. ge11tlen1an \Vho jnst uow r:a.t down n:ade again.st tbt:l Govt>-rnn1ent wa.s tlm~ the grant for the technic.1l college lmcl been cut do1vn from £15,000 to £5,000. The thing had been cut out of the 1-:stirnates ultogether before we went there.

1\lr. Arm:Y : I did m>t complain of that. (Hear, hear!)

The l'RE:\llER: It was simply cut out altogether. And only that it was .;o far in the year probably more would h>evc been put on. I do not think we c .• n spend more than £\000 thm ye~u·, but it was nf'C8Rf"ilry to put it back again, and I rernernber th<:tt there were several other items of the same kind. I think we >edded £10,000 for school buildings, and unless we were g-oing- to swell the expenditure it necessitated cntting dnwn other items, and something like £41,000 wns cut out from a number nf other matt.erR that we could do without. It h9,rdly cornes \Vith a gnnd grace from tbe <\'X-rfrea:3urer to complain oi excessive expenditnre under these circumstances. Now, ad to the rev~nue. The hon. gentleman told the CommitteR that he got a certain estimate from the experts in the Hail­way Department, and that he sent back for those experts soma time >efterwards when he

Supp1p. [i DECEMBER J Suppl;y. 431

found that he could not rrmke the two sides of the ledger balance, and wanted them to increase it by a. cr:-rtain arnonnt.

Mr. AmEY: Ko, I did not. I said rains had Dccnrred, and they rnight revise it.

The TREASURER: He called it revising.

The PRE~IIER: Just sn. It does not matter. He wanted to see if he could not get a higher estimate, and the experts-such as they were-:-told him that they could not see their W>cy to do rt.

Mr. Kum: That is rough on the man you appointed.

!\h. ,TExKixNOx: l•'or that particular purpose.

ThA PREMIER: Exactly the same course was followed ty the pre,ent Treasurer.

The SlWHETAI\Y FOl\ RAILWAYS: After the wheat crop bad been assmed by the rains.

The PRK'viiER: \Ve found, for insbtnce, that th8re waR one itPn1 in the mining receiptt; which hon. members will find given here at £6,000, but which in the Estimates that were there when the prc~sent Treasurer took up his duties, was down .tt £10,000. On going over the ]~~t.irnates to revi~e them, \;'f) fonnd wlwt Hceme<-1 to be an excessiYe ~-nuount, and we cut it down by one-half.

The THEA~UHEH: _.:\_Her con~u1tation \Vith the Under Secret:-1ry.

The PREMIER: After con,ultation with the pro} Jer ufficer~. ~.Ye did the very reverse ,..,, hen we came to revise the }~::iLirnate'"i for the incorne tax.

• ~fr. llfl'J.r \HY: A poor thing to put the blame on the G nder Secretary.

The T HK\ SLHEH : \V e are putting no blar11e on him.

The PRE:\HER: \Ve raise,:l the income tax eRtimate by £fi,OOO. That is a very smAll increaRe on £2'>0,000; but we rai<'ed that by £5,000-just the rever~e uf what we hac! done in the ca~e of the I\lirres Estima,tes. The very sa.rne thing was done in_ the rni.scellaneous receipts. \V t raised them by £8,000. That was an amount which carne in, and abont which the ex-Treasurer did not know anything, or it would have hP8Il

included previouf'ly. ln regard to the railwa.:vs, the pre8ent e.-:timate was put down after consul­tation with the Cmnmissloner upon his return to queensland. He is probably the best man in {lneen::::land for e~tirna ting the prubable revenue of the Rail way Department.

The SF.UHET,,P.Y 1''01\ RAILWAYs: After the \.vheD.t crop \vas a!';.:;nrAd.

The PH1~MIER: The situation had improved son1ewhat, and it continues to improve, and that Pstim"te was put in perfect good faith that it would be realised; and I have no rnme doubt that it will be realiserl than I have that any other item in th>tt long column will not be realised. I have no more reason to doubt the accuracy uf that estimate-large as it is-than I have the smallest detail in the Estimates.

:Mr. A IREY: Y on know what happened last year. You received 1'77,000 under yonr esti­mate.

The PREMIER: I know wbat bo,ppened last year, and I will tell the hon. gentleman what has happened this year, which is more to the pur­pose. If I had had doubts that this was not a fair estimate I should luve cut it out of the other side instead of putting it on to this side. I do not think it ]s good sense in a Treasurer, con­sciously, to put down on the re>·cnue side more revenue than be is likely to get for the purpose of showing a surplus at the beginninv of the year. It is far better either to show a deficit and make

pr0d,ic,n for it, or to cut ont of his expenditure such an arnount as will 1n:1ke his accuunts bo,lance. Hon. members know quite well that what is given here is only an estimate. There is no certainty about it; and, with the "reatest oare and caution, you may be out or in by nHtny thoueands of punnds. All that heinf( allowed for, thero is abHolutely no justification for saying that the ebtirnate of railway revenue is £tn exces~ sive one. It hHs been as carefully gone over and aR amply justified by the facts as any other item in the E~timates.

111r. \V. H. llAENES: And, so far, ynur revenue has been greater than was anticipat(~d.

The PREJ\IIER : I will t Jll the Committee son1etbing n1ore. In spite of all the wailing of the h\•11. gentlem"n about the inflation of the revenue, and iu ~pite of the fact that, for political purposes, this pn.rticular branch of the revenue has been alleged to be inflated-although it is a very poor political purpose, let n1P tell the hon. gentlen1an-it is a very r~::rious blunder for a 1nan in hi~ position to ]nflfl ... te his re,·enne, if he has any reasonable sn~picion that he iH inflating it-it i.-< a, very foolish thing to do-in l:ipite of the statement that the rail,vn,y rPYenue iB in­~ tted, let rue ju . ..;b 1nentinn that there are five utonth:-' nf the financial year gonE'-, and we ha\·e now rt-'cei \·ed son1e £2B,OOO l!!Ore than the ti \"f' 1uontlJ:-:~' }1rnportion of the e~tinwr.cd revenue how the rail~vu,ys.

(:on;Rx,mxT iHE}IBERS: Hear, hear!

The PH.El\liER: ~-\nd tlli~_; tstiu1·tt.e "\Vd.s

tnade before the nwnbh of Kuvemlwr wa.s on7", The "timate for the whole year is £2,040,000 . :Five.t.velfth' of that amount is ,£800,000, and th8 ac·ual revenue during the five nwnt.h:-; was .£878,\Xi3-a net Pxce.% over the five UJonths' proportion of £2i:l,!l33.

GoncmomxT :\IEn!BEHS: Hear, hear!

The PRE:\1IER: I want the Conunittee to gncud again~t thinking that I arn trying to prove ntore from this than thi:-; will prove. It itl un­wise to ktke any two, three, or even five nwntht~, a~ an infallible indicatinn of what the- end of the ytar will be. _All that I mu pointing out now i~ that the figurE- .. , sn far aR they go, do not justify any me m lwr of this Cunnnittee in ca.stiug' donbt cm the r-~tima.te we fw"ve given !or the rail \"\'ay revenue, or in alleging th:1t we are trying to mislead the members .,£ the Committee. Before an Jam. IrlHruber n1akes charges of tha,t kind againRt the Tren;:,urer, he ought to support them with very substantial evidence indeed. .. A .. ny Treasurer n1ay be Tnistaken; and it is a fault with a Treasurer to be mistaken. It i< a fault for which he ought to be blamed by thiE; Committee. But be1ng ntistaken is an entirely different thing from trying to miolead the Committee. l have shown, l think very clearly, that there is no juotification at all for such a statement; and I would jnst like to ask hon. 1nembers to rmne1nber that for about four and a-half mouths of laHt year the ra.ilway rates n,nd fares were collected at the higher rate. This year in the first four months of the year the railway rates collec:ted were at a rate amounting in the four months to £40,000 less than the mtes collected in the corresponding four months of last year; yet in spite of that tbe railway revenue stands as it is.

The 8ECRE1'ARY FOR RAILWAYS: \\'e are £68,000 better off.

The PHEMIER: The hon. member was very strong in revealing a. great 1nystery of finance';

he showed the trick of the Go­[9.30 p.m.] vernment; he showed how it was

this Government had a snrpluR, and it was smartly pointed out. He asked, "Does

Hon. W. Kidston.]

132 [ASSE31:BLY.]

that snrpin9 sbo\V prudence or carP on the part of the C ,)yernment? Not at all. That nnv1us is only thete Lecause they did not .spend the IllOIH'Y·)'

:\Ir. AmE¥: I did not say that. That is pure invt~;lti(m.

The PRE:\Illm.: He instanced quite a lot of expenses. J-Ie n1entinnecl tGO,OOO in connecticn with old-age pen~ion:~,, £15,000 for technical cullege, <1nd quite a nu1nber of other iten1,.:; we lmd 1eot spent. And that was how they

to w .. ·t a trnrplus~bec,iuF:e ttwy did nOt Hlone~Y. If the hon. gentleman knowH

au~-~ other wa.y of g'~tting a .surplus than by not r:-pew~ing the L \Vunld he glad to hear it. J1>:ery ye::tr there a lar~;e nu1nbeT of items th:tt are "ither pnrt[:<.r s·p~nt or not .srwnt at a11.1 and f'VPry year th8re is a nnmber of ite1n~ unauthori:-;ed by the House-not provided for in the Edimates for the year-but included Jn NuplJletnent~try Estimntes, HDd the que thing balancP::l the other. \Vhet.her this itern has not been 8pent, or a new Itetn is ,.::.pent, has nothlng tn do \v]th the fJ_Ue"tior~ as to whether the Go~ vernment ]s living within its incomP or not. 'rhe hon. g8ntleman notwe-d another thing, ancl that WHH thP enormous increase in raihvay ex~ ptmditur;.; thl~ yc::tr, and, indeed, the enoril1ou'l increaP·~ in th_e f-}xpenditure of all the depart­tnent;-;, r_rh8 Governmeut i:-. quite alive to the fact. Tbe Governn1ent know the [)():.iitiuo just a~ well as the ex-Treasurer dues, and the ~:'rea­surer i.s <1Cting in the rnatter now with a desire that the Estimates presented to the Hou.se shall not bP- greatly excePded when the year closes. And w•en in the Railway Department-which of all other.;; appears tn be the greatest sinner in this respect-they have no fear that at the end of the year their present extensive expenditure on the five rnonths will mean a great increase for the year.

The ~ECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: It is a matter that will adjust itself as time goes on.

The PREMIER: In the course of succeeding months that will rectify itself. The hon. gentle­man told us some good old trut.bs about sound finance heing the basis of good government; and I entirely agree with that.

:\Ir. MANN: ·why nob put· the theory into practice?

The PHEMIER: Not only do we agree with it, but we have tried and are now trying to act on it. Any Government may make rnist.,,kes, but the Government is trying to act on the prin­ciple of carrying out a sound 'financial policy. It is for the House to judge how far they have been successful so far; and I submit thab with every desire to show something wrong in this Financial Statement the ex-Treasurer has altogether failed to prove anything against the statement of the Treasurer. Another matter was this-the hon. gentleman dealt at considerable length with the expenditure of loan money-the great increase that has taken place in loan expenditure. I do not want, simply for the purpose of contradicting an opponent, to be led into controverting a posi­tion which is a quite sound one-that in a small State like this we ought to be careful of loan ex­penditure; but it comes with bad grace from the ex-Treasurer, who bewails the increase in the loan expenditure, considering that the loan ex­penditure here is, with the exception of one small item, just the loan expenditure which he had put down in his Estimates.

Mr. AIREY: It was never placed before the Cabinet.

The PREMIER : I hope the Committee will not misunde"'bnd me. I am not blaming the ex-Treasurer for putting that sum on the Esti-

[Hon. W. Kidston.

mates, what I am blaming him for is this : putting thctt ~u1n on the E.;;tinlates, and then eurning here and be\V;1.iling the wi1~kedness c,f the Governtneut becau:5e they have kept h:..; figure::; there.

.:ilr. AIRE¥ : I object to the statement. You intend to spend it thi0 year.

The PRE:\UER: .Just listen to tbe extn­ordiuary attitude. of the hon. member for Bris­bane South! lie· charg-es the Treasurer ht·re with rnttking a rniBleading statemPnt to the Committee; a.ncl thPn he gives the Cmnrnlttee to uncler:-;tnnd tbat aJthnugh he put that 1nnne.v there it was not with the intention cf spendi!lg it, bnt thb wicked Treasurer has put it there \vit.h the intention of spending 1t.

i\Ir. AIREY : That is my ohjecsion.

The PitEJIIER: The hon. gentlen1an also read su1:w extrac!~ frnrn. a 1'peech uf tnine in 1~)()2-3, 'iVhen I wa\-l bew:1iling the then finn,ucinl vu~ition nf (.luf:"nsland ~nu1 urging caution in the llltttttr uf lua.n e:\.lJt'l:diture. There it-; uo che3,per or currnnunor kind of criticitJnl of a public rnan than tbi~ kind of crir.lcistn withnut any regJ.:·d to the fac~s-to quote 'iVithnut 8JilY rt·gard to the c·trcnmstanct'~ some~ hlng hA has said n. ye:n· ol' two ago and apply it to circnrnstanccs that are altogether different.

~\Ir. \\rOOD~: You don't like it.

The PREMIER : I seem to like it quite as weil as Lhe bon. member. The first statement I n1ade as ).lini~ter in regard to this n1atter in 1903 was this : I '"-'id very much the r•ame thing before I wa~ ::\.Iini;:.;ter, and this is what I said when I had become a I\linister-

Of course a large part of the loan expenditure has been more or le•;!:' prodnctive, thus redneing- the aetn11.l bnrdcu of taxation. Rut, as 'iYill be seen from Budget Table U, some 27 to 2cl per cent. of onr total interest falls direct on the taxpayer. Surely this is a pcsition serious enough to make e;cry memher ot this douse hesrtutc before he advocates or consents to rnrther borrm\'ing ~

And then I indicated tha,t it was possible we might be able to go on in Qt1€ensland for some five years without borrowing, and I am glad to say we have done so.

Mr. l\IANN: You have been spending borrowed money all Lhe same.

The T'H.EMIER : If hon. members will con­sult page 32 of the Treasurer's tables they will see this : That in the year 1902-3 the actual charge-the actual burden of the interest Bill­amounted to 27.24 per cent. of the total revenue, and in the year before it had been 28.2/i per cent. of our total revenue. I thought that w~s a very serious po~ition, and I did nut hesitatfl to say F:O~ To-day, this is the position : That 27 per cent. or 28 per cent. has fallen to 10 per cent.

GovERNMENT i\1EMBERS : Hear, hear !

The PREMIER: To 10.40 per cent. or nearly 10!; per cent. of our total revenue. Surely that alters the situation entirely in so far as our credit and financial standing is concerned.

.Mr. JACKSON: It io a better guarantee of the interest on future loans.

The PHEMIER: :Much better, and not only that : there is another aspect of this matter, and I willjustread to the Committee a paragraph from the Treasurer's Financial Statement on page 4, and it is a curious paragraph to read about a Treasurer's Statement that is said to be a misre­presentation of tbe financial position. 'l'he Treasurer shows in this paragraph, not only the amount of loan money he has on hand, but he shows what prospects he has of additions to that fund during the year. He says this-

The total amount of loan money we are likely to have available this year is £1,082,389-that is, some £48,000

Supply. [7 DECEMBER.] Supply. 4:33

more than we actually spent last year. But the active policy of railway coustnwtion authorised by the IIou~e last session will necessitate a large increase in our loan expenditure this ye:tt'. As honourable members lvill sec from the E·..:tim:ttus ot' loan expenditure laid before them, I Iwve estilliated that 'vewiil require loan money to t.he ex Lent of £1,.)86,051 this year. It will therefore be de:;.irttblc. bel'orc the close of the sHsion, to make provi:sion for the replenishing of our loan fund.

I wane to know whether that is not a perfectly frank etatement to make to. members of this Committee'? I have shown how very ureatly improved the financial position of the State is to ~hat it was five years ago in regard to this ques­twu of borrowmg-that whereas the unearned portion of our interest amounted to 27 or 28 per cent of our total revenue, it now only amounts to 10.10 per cent of our total revenue. The Trea­surer pointed out what the position is. The total money in this fund that we see available is £1,?82, 000, and we have estimated to spend on ,-artous loan works th1s year some £600,000 more than th~t. If the House is vrepared to stop loan works, 1f the House m prepared to discontinue the building of railways-to dlscontinue practi­cally all lo~n works-well and good, but it 1s the busmess of the Treasurer-the duty of the Treasurer, and he should not allow anything else to come in the way of it-it is the duty of the Treasurer to state the matter clearly to tbe House, and the Treasurer has ful­filled that, and it will be for the House to sup­port the loan policy that the Government pro­pose or to oppose it. That is a matter for members of the House, but it is the first busi­ness of the Government to make clear to tbe House what the position is, and I think the Treasurer has done that. I wish to say a few words in reply to some strictures of the hon. member in regard to the financial rehtions of the Comm 1nwealth and the State. ·whatever I have said about other matters--however we may quarrel about other matters-! earneslly ask members of the Committee to try to consider this question apart altogether from State party politics. There is a c.1ntinued implication from hon. members-and the hon. member who has just sat down talked about the much-abused :Federal Treasurer, and the complaints we have against the Federal Government. I have never abused the Federal Treasurer.

Mr. HARDACRE: Only the Federal Labour party.

The PREMII~R: I have never abused the Federal Tre"surer or the Federal Government in this matter, and the other complaint is equally ~roundle.~s-tha t I have determined to oppose the Federal Labour party. I have never abused the Federal Labour party either, and I have never determined to oppose the Federal Labour party. This matter is very apt to be a shuttle-cock on our State politics.

:y[r. MuLCAHY : You did it yoqrself.

The PREMIER : Our party preference is apt to be made the slave of this business.

::VIr. HARDACRE: Didn't you make the state­ment you were reported to have made at J\fel­bourne?

The PRI!~MIER : I think it wonld be much better and wiser for hon. members opposite not to trouble their heads about newspaper state­ments of what I said at Perth, 1\Ielbourne, or some other place, and to just take my statement now. As hon. members opposite know quite well, so far as I am personally concerned, I do not care a snap of the fingers whether they accept my statement or not. I am only stating how, in my opinion, members of this House members of the Federal House, and members of other State Parliaments ought to try to approach this question.

1908-2E

::'I.Ir, ::\I.-1:-.x: Y on made it the stalking-horse for the coalition.

Mr. Mt:LCAHY: 'IVill you give us a day to dis­cuss the question ?

The PRE:\liER : ·what would be the use of a day's discussion'/ \Vhat does the hon. member know about the question?

Mr. Mt:LOAJlY: I would nut tell a lot of lies about it.

The P RE?.IIER: I would like to make a few remarks regarding the proposal of the :Federal Labour party. I am not commenting upon that pro rosa! because it is the proposal of the }'ederal Labour party, but I propose to comment upon it just as I would on a proposal made by Rir \Villiam Lyne, or 1\Ir. Harper, or any other man.

:\fr. l\IULOAHY: You are retracting what you smd in .Melbourne.

An Ho1-IOUI\.-HJLE JYIE;~rBER : \Vbat is the ex­pense of a conference?

The CHAIR:\IAN: Order J I must ask hon. members to refrain from irrelevant interjections, and to give the hon. gentleman an opportunity of presenting his case.

The PREMIER: Y\Tith regard to a confer­ence, which I hope will be held at the beginning of the year, whatever may be the advantage of getting the opinions of individual m err. hers on this question, this House is not the place where it can be settled. \Vhat we should be concerned about in the present instance is not to define details, as hon. members know quite well that the details of any scheme will have to be settled elsewhere than in this House-they will have to be settled where there are not only representa­tives of the different States, but also representa­tives of the Commonwealth. This is a matter in which each of the States and the Common­wealth have an equal interest, and it will only be settled by an honest intention on the part of the Federal :Ministers and the· State Ministers to giYe and take with one another, and to try to arrive at what will really be an equitable settle­ment between the States and the Commonwealth.

::VIr. AIREY : Don't you think Ministers ought to know the opinions of the House?

The PREMIER: Now, I shall come back to the Labour party's proposal. I do not think it is a good proposal.

Mr. HAIWACRE: Not as good as it might be but it is better than some proposals that have been submitted.

The PREMIER: That is not the point. \Vhen I was speakinf! on this question I had not 'een this corrected version published on the l:ith July, when I was out of the State. When I spoke about the matter I spoke in general terms, and I used the expression that this was a pro­pas~! to divide among the St,ttes a fixed amount of about £3,000,000 annually, whereas the States last year had divided among them £8,800,000, and that that mea.nt a difference to Queensland equivalent to raising the income tax from 6d. to ls. 3d. in the £1. I have had the matter inquired into, and a corrected version of t-he Lo,bour party'i; propoeal has been suprlied to me by the Hon. A. H inchcliffe, who, I presume, was the secretary of tbe c.:onvention. This Xo. 2 proposal says-

That such annual share be paid to the States in the form of a fixed sum per lwad of the population, such sum to be ascertained during or before the year 1910, on the basis shown in the fourth paragraph.

The 4th paragraph says the fixed payment per capita is to be ascertained by-

(a) Taking the average total of the Customs and Excise revenue of five representative years before 1910.

I do not kn:nv what "five representative years''

Hon. W. Kidsto~.J

43t Supply. [ASSEMBLY.~ Suppl:IJ·

me~tn.s. I suppose any year is repre~entative. However, that iH only a matter of phraseology, and I do not want tu distract hon. members' attention from the proposal itself. If you take the last five years, which are just as fair five years aK any five years you can take, you will find that the average annual net CuRtoms and Bxcif'e receipts ttre £n,2HD,OOO.

:\[r. J'L~Rl>ACHK: Is that the total for the States?

The PREMIER: Yes. I am reading from the proposal of the Federal J,alJOnr party. Para. graph 4 reads-

ra) 'faking the RYcra~e total of the Custom~ and. Excise revenue of ftve represtmtath"e years before 1910.

rb) l>cductin.g thcrefrum the average totnl or Com­molnvcalth expcuditnrc. for the :--ame represcntnth·c year~. under the tltrc(~ head~ ennmera..ted in t1w thi.rcl paragraph.

That is "~tll existing e>ependitme apart from reproductive ser·dces; old-age aiJd invalid pPn­sions throughout the Cornrnonv.roa1th ; an addi tional SUJll not to exceed £1,000,000 for the expanding- nece~sities of the Federal Govern, ment, such as the creation of tlw Federal capital, rail way undertakings, and the drYelopnlent of the =.-..rorthern Territory."

ic\ Dividing the amonnt so ;n·rivt•(1 at by t.he nvrr.1.~e number of the popnlation ol' _\.n.::traliu for ·.Jte ~<tme revresentatiYP year--:.

\Vhen you do that you get an av8rH.ge annual l'eturn to the Commonwertlth of £~,1GO,OOO, aud an average nnnual return tn the Scates of £,),12~),000. Tbat is in those {ive years.

Mr. HAHI >AC!tE: D•m't vou know tb:<t last year it was £11,000,000 "? ,

The PRg:\UER: I am talking about the average of the last fi'i.~e yc~a.rs on the basi~ laid_ down in that proposal.

Nlr. HAHilAUim: That is not the average l11id down.

The PRKYIIEH. : I will read it again for the benefit of the hon. member who was vmy l""itive

in contradicting rne before \vhen I [10 p.m.] had not tbe paper with me. Taking

the average total Customs and Ex­cise revenue of five re1Jresentatlve years before 1910---

rvir. 1:hTCHELL: You are not taking an average of ten years, you are taking an average of seven.

The PltE:\HER: Before 1910, an average of five years. They are not bad years so far as Queensland is concerned, or fm far as the Corn~ monwealth is concerned. 'fhey are the best years for revenue. They are years in the Com­monwealth of the largest J<~xcise :tnd Custmns revenue.

1\Ir. HAllD"\CllF.: Last yPar it was £9,000,000, and this year it is £11,000,000 instead of £9,000,000.

The PREllllER: As I said before, these yeal'8 are taken just becau:.;e they are the ln.st years. This is how the proposal would pan out on those yean--that the States would only have divided amongst them £5,129,000.

j\[r. J'diTOHELL: Is that '" mistake, or is it misrepresentation •t

The PREYITER: I ha,-e read this so uflen but l will read it ag11in. I thoug-ht that thos~ hon. gentlernen over there, who 'vere so 1nilitant when I mentioned the 1•'ederal I~abour proposalH would all be acquainted with them, and I hambly took it back when they 0orrected me, hecanse I had not the power to substanthte what I was saying? but I find they do not know anything about tt.

[lion. W. Kidston.

1'Ir. HAHIJAORE : There is nothing wrong, but you are taking the last five years; that is all.

The PREMIER: Condition (a) paragraph 4-Taking the average total Customs and Exci"e revenue of five representative years before 1!110.

1Ir. HAIWAC!lE : You are not taking five representative years.

The PRE:YIIER: That mig-ht l>e the first, or the middle, ur the last five y<"ars, so long as they are before l!llO. The peculiar thing about taking the last five years--

1fr. 1IITC'HELL : No ; it is representative years -years that will give an average for ten years.

The PREMIER : The peculiar thing is this, that in taking the last fi ,.e years to finct out how this would work out, we take the best five years. The lhmnci,d authority on the other side--the ex~Treasurer, before \Vhmu they all R-it srniliug and gaping-assured thern that last year was so good a year that it was a boon1 year, that tbe years to come before l~llO vvonld not be so goorl) and the :Federal revemw was going to fall off. I think that is incorrect. I do not think there is any likelihood of the }<'ecleral revenue falling off to an 'l nppreciable an1onnt : but the five year:-~ I hftve tn.ken show tbe best }-,ederai revennP. I :nu only \Yaitin~ to con viuce hon. Inen1be1'-" uf the cm11]lariHon 1nade. The way in which tl1iti i:-; wen ked out i~ in w> ~enRe that I know nnf~tir to the f.·.cheme that the past fiye yeal'~ hnve been t~tken tu ~iho1v ho1w it would pan nut. Ntn\-, the schetne J'fLIIB: out 2.s I say, that instead of A~S,SW,OOO which WHS distributed arnongst the States last ynar, i h01·e wnnld only have fallen to lw distributed £3,12H,OOO, which 1neans a difference to the StateR of £3,7;30,000 . .1-\.nd, ~nind ynn, that. doP~ not co\'er tbe whole thing. That reduction wuu1d be still greater, becctuse there 1s a provision here for nw.king a spet,ial payment to \Yestern Australia, which is to ('ome off the propurtion paid to the States. But .iust taking it as it is thought, there woulr1 be a ~hortag(~ of £,·J,037,000. A::;:-mming that Queemland's share uf that would be DUe-eighth, that means th>et Queensland would get £41jG,OOO a vear less than she had htst year.

·Nir . .:\[ITOHJlr.r,: Do you think it is fair to g-ive tha.t as a correct statement? ])(m't yon know better-that, if there is £11.000,000 to he divided, it will jnst take about the same amount due by the :Federal Goven1ment as you have estimated there, and that will leave---

Gon:R:-;i\rE:-;'1' JYh:iiiBKltS: Order, order! Hon. JL Pl!ILP: :\Ir. l\Iaughan,-Is the hon.

member in order in making a speech?

The PRE:VIH~R : I am applying the method of calculating what will come to the States according to the letter of that proposal.

1Ir. l\In•cHF.LL: Yuu know you are not, and nobody knows better.

The PREMIER: I will be very much obliged if the hon. meml>ers fnr 1\[arybOl'oug-h, the bun. member for Leichhardt, or any other hon. mem­ber can show me that this proposal will bfl onb· stantially better for the States than what I have said-not by ~;upposing a great increase that is to take place in the future, but just dealing with our reYenne now, an<l showing what would iNe get of it under this proposal. It is exceedingly difficult to deal "-ith a matter of this kind.

Mr. i\It:LCAHY: \Vhen you are not telling the truth.

The PREMIER : And I would like hon. members opposite to look at this matter from their own point of view as members of this House. If they can show me that this is a fair prop0sal for the State, I will gladly accept that proposal. My business in this matter is to get

Suppl:t;. [7 DECEMBER.] Suppl;IJ· 435

a fair and P<)nitoble proposal as between the States and the Commonwealth, and I flrn nut caring two stnt\V_., what party prdpu~,e·,,. it or supports it, I will support that varty.

GOVERNi\IEK'r lHEii!BERS : Hear, hear !

~Ir. MAKN : As long "' von are in yonr present position. "

The PREMIER: I want to point ont­althnug-h it i-; excet,iing-ly ditficn!t to point out anything· to the Committee under this gt.yle of irrelevant interjt'CI ii[n~, rnany of which I ignore -that when I ,aid tllat this pruposal would n1ean increasing uur incowe tn': frmu 6d. to ls. 3d. in the £1, I was about tu remark that it would mean mnch nearer ls .. )Ll. in the £1, aR:o;uming that tbe-.e figure.s, whieh are pro­blematic<tl figure~, were curreet. T'he",e tignrr-; are Lased on th(~ lllethnd on \Vhich the ftmount to be distribnted to the St~tc•, ts to be cn1,cubted; they are the only fig·nres we have, and the best figures we have. These are correctly based on the fignre-; we have, and that would be the result. Now, W::l'5Un1ing that I "'arn correct, do hrm. ~·entlerr1en oppositf-: think I \V(:nld he rlning­Jny dnty in accepting '3ur-h a settle1nent as th:tt: I will put it thi.< way : 8uppo<e that is the case, are hon. gentlemen opposite prepared to ::;upport it?

l\lr. HAHI )A('HE: ::\ ot on your figtnes. :\Ir. :\IULL->K: \Ve only laid that down as a

ba~i~.

The PltE:\IIER : Suppose these figurec are apprvxinlc:ttely ClHTect ·:

}[r. HARI>ACHE: TheY o.re not. That is tho trouhie. '

The TnrcASUllRR: But suppose they were.

'l'~he PitE}IIER: Bnt say they are correct, are hnn. gentle1n8n prepared to ,-;upport snch n lJrOtl08al.

11r. H~1HVACRE : K o, not on yonr fignret:.

11r. lYIFLCc\HY: '\Ve all know tlwt you are twiflting tbe111. '

Mr. HAtmAORR: 'fhey are not our figures.

The CHAIH:YIAX : Order, order ! Hon. R. Pm LP: Y on will support ~my JH'<l·

po~al to snit your men.

The P HEiVIIER : This is my complaint in re· g·ard to t.hi;;; m<-ttter. \Vhen I returned to .t\.nt;­tralia I found two proposals had been made when I wa~ aw~1y, one which reduced the amount re­tnrnab!e to the St"tes tu £G,OOO,OOO in,Ltad of £S,i'i00,000, am! the other which reduced it to £il,OOO,OOO. At lutst that was the sto,tement which I 'aw, and I would not ha.ve either of these propcwals. I am just as much opposed to Sir \\Tilli:tm Lyne's proposal as I am to the pro· posal of the I,abour party. 1'hese matters will he discussed later, and I hope that we will come to a settlement which will be satisfactory, not only to the S tat ss, but to the Cummomvealth Pa.rlin.ment as welL

1\fr. HARlJACRg: Hear, heo,r!

The PREMIER: I think that is eminently desirable, and as I s'tirl before now, I am quite prep tre! to give and take in this matter, and I 'vould just like to ~ay that there is no hope of .any ~ath;factory settlement unless there is a give and take with one another on the matter.

HONOVRATILl'; N(E;nnERS: Hear, hear!

The PREMIER : At the same timP, as a 11inister of the State of Queensland, as a member of this House, and as a (~ueenBiander--

0PPOSITION JV!JmBlmS : \Vhat? Mr. JffiN"KINSON: Did you say C)neen.,]ander?

What about the freedom of the city·~

The PREHIJ.;R: And as an ~~nstralian-­JHr. RYLAN"ll: A pntriotic Australian.

The CHAIRMAN : Order, order! 1\Ir. MvLCAHY: Don't say that. You make

all Australians sick.

The PllEMTER: Mr. ~Iaughan,-Thisisreally becurning serion:-;. It is aluw2it 1mpossil?le to get a certn,in nn1nber of men1bers in this House to Heriou.;;ly diMm'i!s important public bu.sinPI"3s of this kinJ. The hnn. meml.)':>r f,Jl' Gyrnpie, the hon. 1nember for Fa:-;sifern--

1\Ir. JEXKI:<so:>: I June not been so bad.

The PRE:VIIER: Both members of Gympie seem to forget altogether what I am spea.l:ing about. They forget altogetllF•r t.be importanc~ of this mcltter to the welhre of f~neerHland, and they are gnilt.r uf ilnpertinenf;e, :-111d I regret, 3/Ir. 1laugbttiJ, tbat you ~hontd allow thent to go on '" they do.

GoYERN"Jr>;N"·r 1\[,;}flJER~ : Hear, hear !

The CIL\.TIUL\.X: I should like to draw the attention of the Chief Secretary to the f,tct that I have twice called for order while he has been speaking, and that order ha~ been rPspected. I should like to draw attention to the fact that the bun. ntembt'I' for 1\Iaryhornngh interjected at some length, tmd the Chief :-;ecn:tary listetwd to him.

Hon. R. PH ILl': Yon allowed the hon. mem­ber for }hryborough to make a speech.

The CHAIRMAN : Order! The Hmm SECRETAUY: [t was clistinctly out

of order. The CHAIR~IAC\ : Order !

ThwPREJlUER: The hrm. member for i\Ian·­borough wr.s really talking about the matter under discussion, and I have no objection to interject,ions of t.hat kind at o,ll.

1'he HmrE SECRETAH¥: They are out of o"cler, The PHE:\IIER: I do not mind interjections

when hon. n1e1nbers r-ae con."-1dAring the businesR of the H•.>u,e, enen if they interject for a long­time. It is nut that tlmt I am compbining of at all. I hope to g~t members of this Parlia· rnent and members of the other r>arliaments-­both }'ederal and St~te~to approach this matter, not in regard to the little details of it-not as to whether we shall get £:JO,OOO more or leRB-but on the broad and general purpose of it. I want to settle this matter for good and end the sore· nec,s and trouble between the Commonwealth and the States, and establi,;h the Commonwealth Government on a sound footing.

HONOGRAIJLE l\1rmmms: Hecw, .hear!

The Plll~:\HER: Until you do that, the federation will never be perm~nently settled.

Mr. .TEXKlN"SO~ : 'J'hey will look after that. 1\'Ir. 'YILLOAI!Y: Yes, they can look after that

the1nselvcs.

The PREl\IU;R : lt ,., ill never bn per· manently settled until this matter ol the finan· cial relationship between the G1mmon wealth and the States is put on a ''ILtisfactory footing. (Hear, hear !) It would be far better for Queen<· land to haH £30,000 a year less to bave this matter settled pern11nently and on a satis. factory footing, so that we would ltnow that this Parliament bad eornplete control ot our uwn finances. (Hear, hear!) I am quite willing to give and take with the other States and witr. the l•'ederal Parliament, but I will not consent to any scheme that is going to hand over the financi>tl control of the State Parliament of Queensland to the Federal Government--

GoVERNllUlNT MEoiBERS: Hear, hear!

Don. W. Kidston.]

436 Suppl,y. [ASSKi\iBLY.J SuppT,y.

The PRE::\IIER: Or any scheme that is going to make the Federal Governmr·nt the financial bosses of this l':uliament.

GoncllN)!E);1' J\IE>II3EH8 : Hear, hear!

The PltEl\liER: It does not matter to me whctt party advocates it; if their plans are likely to have that result, I.will oppose it.

l\1r. :IIITcHELL: You will oppose those plans?

The YKB~MIER: Yes, and not the parties. ThA hon. member for i::iouth Brisbane talked about Sir \Villiam Lyne's scheme with much commendation.

:VIr. 1\fAN:">i : He disagreed with it.

The PRE:YliER: He pointed out some things in Sir \Yilliam Lyne's scheme that ought to pre. vent it from being accepted. To begin with, Sir \Villiam Lyne proposed to return !;6,000,000 to the State~, which is t2,/50,000 less th:tn the States got last year.

Jlilr. AmEY: You said £li,OOO,OOO covered it.

ThP PllEl\IIER: There are good features in Sir \Villiam Lyne's proposal. There are good features in all the prO]JOsals which have been made, and I will diocuss them all. Some of them were so good that the States would have gladly accepted them. A year and a-half ago in Brisbane we agreed practically with Sir ,John Forrest's propo>al, buc I did not approve of all these details. I did not approve of all the details agreed to at the Premier's Conferenee at the beginning of the year after I went away, and it is not very easy to get a proposal in which every. one will agree with all the details, vVe will have to take it on the ayerage, after exercising our best judgment.

Mr. MI'l'CHELL: You might give the House the benefit of your proposal.

The PRE:'IiiER: I have already told you that I would be able to do a great service to Queensland and to Australia if I was able to make such a proposal. I am not able to do it.

11r. Bow:arAN: Do you favour the continuance of the Brad don section?

The PRE:\IIER: Until I see something better.

Mr. HAHDACRE: Then why do you talk of desiring financial independence?

The PREMIER : I want hon. members not to run away with mere words and neglect the thing itself. So long a" the States receive a portion of the Customs and Excise, it is quite clear that they must be more or le"s dependent on the Commonwealth; and so long as the fluctmations of the amount they receive depend upon the fluctuations of the Customs and Excise reven ne itself, I do not call that dependence on the Com­monwealth. I call that dependence on the Customs and Excise revenue, just as we are dependent on the fluctuations of the income tax revenue, or the fluctuations of the land revenue. Every resprmsible Government has to take its chance of that. The evil of the position is, that we have not the power to raise or to lower the Customs and Excise revenue-an evil that it is very difficult to get over. All the proposals that I have seen for the Commonwealth making a fixed payment to the States, and so saving them from that insecurity, has this natural defect in them-that, if the Commonwealth is going to promise to pay a fixed amount, then they will try to settle that fixed amount so l0w that it will be absolutely s 1fe for them to promise it.

Hon. R. PHILP : It wonld be a very small sum.

The PREMIER: Yes ; I think it is better that the States should take their own risks of the rise and fall of the Customs and Excise revenue than that they should agree to take the

[Hon. W. K idston.

minimum payment that the Commonwealth will make totbem. I do not ask that this Parliament should be )JUt in a po,ition of doubt-that we should never know where we are about the finances. I only want to have this Parliament in the natural and healthy position of people's repreoentativP·', who will have full control of the financial position ; and l wit.:h hon. members, whf'n discussing thii:l matter, not to twit one another with discussing whether the l<'ederal Parliament has done well tow>trds us in the past, or that it has given us some of the surplus re' enue or not. That is not the point in this diHcussion. The point in this discussion is not whether the I<'ederal Parli:tment do a fair thingornot, although it is a factor in the matter. The thing that we need to be concerned 11bout is what is going to be the position after HllO?

GOVER:-<>IEN'l' JYIE:uDEHH: Hear, hear !

The PREMIEH: vVe can manage nntil the end of 1910 quite well; but what is going to be our position after that? Unless we take time by the forelock;' and get a l•'ederal Parliament that will make a fresh readjustment of the rela­tions between the Commonwealth and the States, fair to the States as well as fair to the Common" wealth, this will be the position: 'rhe Federal Ministers and thf· FedPral Parliament will have power to make any kind of arrangement they like in re"ard to the Customs and Excise revenue. They may tell the States they will pay them no more of it. They can tell them they will pay them £6,000,000, or £4,000,000, or £2,000,000, or £1,000,000, just as they please. Now, I submit that that is not the position whiCh any member of this Parliament who has any sense of duty to Queensland ought to be willing to see taken up.

GoVERNi\IE?'T lYIElllDEHs: Hear, hear! 11r. HAHDACRE: It is not. We are just as.

anxious as you are.

The PREMIER: It is eminently desirable that before that time arrives we should have come to oome such arrangement as will enable the Federal Parliament to carry on their own financial concerns without interference from the States, and will allow the States to carry on their financial business without fear of being controlled and bankrupted, indeed, by the extravagance of the :Federal Parliament.

Mr. HAHDACHE: Do you allege that there is intentional unfairness on the part of Common­wealth members to the States?

The PREMIEH: No ; I do not say anything of the sort.

Mr. HAHDACRE: Then why is not this :Federal Parliament just as good as the one you want in its place bee<tUSe of this particular problem? vVe are all trying our best to solve it.

The PREMIER : That is not the position at all. The Parliament I want to get in there I want elected on a pledge to the country that they will solve it in a particular way.

Mr. HARDACRE: \Vhat is that particular way~

The PREMIER: It is not fair to the State Parliaments that the Federal representatives should be elected to go there to make ducks and drakes with the Federal revenue which the States are needing.

GOVEHN>IENT MEillBEHS : Hear, hear ! The PREMIER: It is quite a legitimate

thing for the States Parliaments to say, "vVe say that we have an interest in this matter as well as you; and we think it is only fair that, before the power to deal with it falls entirely into your hands, you will agree with us first as to how you are going to deal with it."

Supply. [7 DECEll:BER.] .AdJournment. 437

l\fr. HARDACRE: Hear, hear! A' you have a particular way, why don't you put it before this Commonwealth Parliitment?

:VIr. RYLAND: You haven't a patent for it.

The P RKI'II1ER: I have not got a particular W<l:V yet.

1Ir. HARTHURE: \Vhy not get a particular way and make a fair proposal?

The CHAIRMAN: Order, order!

The PRKiYIIER: I have no doubt that out of the multitude of counsellors wisdom can come· bnt I do not know whether I shall submit a pro: posal or not. At present I think it is extremely unlikely. I think the danger in regard to a settlement lies in the multitude of proposals, w1th every party and every little section clam­ourous for its own proposal. I do not know whether it would not be a good thing- to burn all the propomls that have been made and start afresh. I do think that most of the vublic men in Australi:t have nn honest desire to see this matter settled, because I think most public men recognise, as I do, that it is not the existence of this Parliament, it is not the welfare of this Parlimnent, or of the members of this ~':rliament, it is not the welfare of Queensland, 1t IS the progress and well-being of the whole of Australia that is involved in the proper settle­ment of this question.

GOVEHNJ\!E:\'T iVIEMilERS : He::tr, hear !

The PREMIER: We all know quite wen­and nobody kncm s better than the hon. member for Leichhardt-how, if you put power into the hands of men--

:Mr. MuLCAHY: \Ye have found that out in your case.

The PHEMIER: They may look at the m::ttter from their own point of view. \Vhy do we all refuse to allow one of our judges to sit in his own case? Are we afraid that he is a partial Inan, or a wicked man, or that he does not 1nean 'vell to the community. ~ o ; it is because wu know that he has the natural bias inherent in human nature, and so we say to hi1n, "You harl better let somebody else junge in your case." I say the "tme of this matter. It ought to be settled by a ennferen ce of representatives from the different Parliaments, including the Com­monwealth Parliament; and I sincerely hope that the result of the ~oming conference will be such a settlement.

.:\Ir. HAJUHCHE: Hear, hear' Then why ctart ont for an elf'ction fiRht unless you have a particular proposal to 1uake ?

The PRE:\1IER: Why should 1 have an election if I can get what I want without it? A~ thoug-h I have no objection to >tn election fight, still I have not such a love for it that I would run the risk of spoiling what I think a fair thing by entering upon it; hut I am prepared to do all I eau in an election fight to try tu secure such an honourable readjustment as I have indicated.

Mr. RYLA:\'D: You have not indicated any­tliing vet.

The PREMIER: I have no doubt when the jn_nior .rnt~tnber for Gym pie gets np to speak he wdl gl\·e ns three or four planA. There iR a

number of little matters that were [lO·:iO p.m.] de,;lt with by the hon. member for

Sonth Brisbane, and I need not de­tain the ( 'nunnittee by reef erring to them; bnt I would like to ask the attention of hon. members to the lm:t par&.graph in the Treatinrer'H State­ment. He has coiled ttttention to the increase thttt has taken place in the public expenditure durin;;- the last four years-an increase that has beeu pheuomenal. 1 donLt if evE'r such an in­crease lMs ever taken place in the ublic expendi-

tnre of Queensland during any other four years of her history-an incre>se which I think has been justified by thre wishes of this House, by the fact that we hatl the money to p>ty for it, and by the fact that the purposes of the expenditure have been on the whole justified. But while the Treasurer has called attention to that, and to the need there i~ for taking care we do not allow om· present prosperity to run away with us, and to the fact that we should hold our hands for a year until the natural increase in revenue gives us a larger 1nargin of safety; and while it was the duty of the TreaFurcr to call the attention of hon. members to the true position of the finances, I sinc>rely trust that when we get to the details of the Estimates, and we come to an increase for this thing, and an increase for something else, hon. members will just remember the position. If we rlo not steady the expendi­ture we may be guilty of a very great blunner. The position is not, as the hon. member for Brisbane South t.ried to get the Committee to believe, a dangerous position, or a calami­tous position, or a rotten position; the posi­tion was never sounder than it is at present; CLnd no hon. member can look at the table the Treasurer hCLs given on page 7 of the Statement, with its universal increase, without recogniHing that the condition of Queensland is prosperous to a degree never experienced before. _\.t the same time the Governrnent is well aware that the expenditure has been incre-af'iing at a rate we cannot all<nv to cnntinnp, for a year or two at any rate; and I sincerely trust that members of the Committee, when dealing with.the E,timates, will recognise that, and will not unduly press the Government to a fnrther increase of expenditure at a time when our expenditure is hig-her than it ever was before with the exception of one year­and higher even than it was in. that year, making­allowance for the Customs and other transferred departments. I trust that hon. members will assist the Gtn-ernment to that extent in steady­ing expenditure for a year until the natural increaRe of our revenue puts Queensland into a better position than she is in to.day.

The House resumed. The CHAimiAN reported progress.

'l'he TREASFRER: I move that the Com­n1ittee have leaYe to sit again to-morrow.

Mr. MANN (Cairns) : I wish to ask the Treasurer, or the .Premier, how many days will be allowed for the discussion of the l•'inancinl Statement. I hope we shall have full time to discuss it.

The TRJDASURJ<:R: I do not know how long it will be before the debate close;;. It is early to say yet, but I will probably be in a posi­tion to say to-morrow night.

Mr. AIREY: I would like to draw attention to the early honr at which we have been ad­journing this session-·10 o'clock, a quarter-past 10, and half-past 10-and then we have been twitted by the Premier with not wanting to get through business. If we arP go in!" to shut down in a few days it would be better to sit later. I think this is a plain bnrking of business.

Qm•stion put and passed.

ADJOURNMENT.

The l'REMIER : I move that this House clo now adjourn. In regard to the length of time the debate on the Financial Statement will occupy, that is a matter entirely for the con­sideration of members of the Committee. They know quite well the business that is before them ; they can form a very shrewcl idea of the business to be clone; and they know the time they have to do it in. They can use the time at their own

Hon. W. Kidston.]

Papel's. [COlTNCIL.J

discretion; there i.~ n,, desire on the part of the Govern1nent to stop anyone frorn discnssing the r1nestion. At the sa1ue titne it is a de~irable thing to adjourn the Honse at this time if we can possibly clo it.

GovEmniE:<T ::\1EJlBEH~ : Hear, hear!

The PREJ\IIEI:t: The hon. member for For­titude V alley to-day sngge,ted that we shrmld Ineet in the forenoons. 1 do not know whether that is practicable. \Ve are considering the rnatter, and will SPe if it is practicable. I wa.nt to give hon. rnemlwrs ~very opportuuity-within the limits of time at our disposal--for as full discm~t3iun of the Govern1nent and the financial policy as they wish. I beg to move the House clo now adjourn.

::\Lr. KERH (Harcoo): I havetoprotest against the House adjonrning at thi, hour of the nie:ht, fol' thi, rea,-;on: \V .. e have the Press supporting the Government., and tbe Government is cmn­plaining, through the PreSi\ of n1ernbers on this side of the Chamlwr preventinf( the bmine's bejng carried intn dfeet, when we are prepared to carry on the busine:Js. The hon. gentlen1a.n shuwq how earnest he is in carrying ont his pro­grannne. He hn~ no intention of carrying out the prograrume on the bnsiness-papRr. I--le is adjourning ~tt this hour in the eveninQ", and be has not taken any st(·p:-; to get the Financial Statement debated, and then, after it haR been carried on for " week, he will be able to tell those that are behind him, and the people in the country, all the BillR he prdposed to bring in thir; se;;;;sion, and whi(;h he was unable to bring in owing to tbe opposition that was ~:-hown on this side of the Hon~e. Hun., n1ern ben:, on this sicle of the Hon~e are prepared to go on '\vith bn.--i­ne-;s, and I lllll:-Jt protest against thls early adjournnwnt.

Quc,,tion put and passed.

The :House adjourned a.t eighteen n1inutes to H o'clock.

Companies Acts, Etc., Bill.