Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 7 NOVEMBER 1944

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

1298 Questions. [ASSEMBLY.] Trade Descriptions, &:c., Bill.

TUESDAY, 'i NOVEMBER, 1944.

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. S. J. Brassington, Fortitude Valley) took the chair at 11 a.m.

QUESTIONS.

INSURANCE PREMIUMS, SCHOOL COMMITTEES' EQUIPMENT.

Mr. KERR (Oxley) asked the Secre­tary for Public Instruction-

" In view of his statement that he will accept responsibility for radio licence fees in schools, will he also accept the respon­sibility for insurance premiums on property subscribed for by parents and school com­mittees which become vested in the State, such as pianos, talkies, wireless sets, school libraries, sewing machines, &c., &c.~''

Hon. J. LARCOMBE (Rockhampton) replied-

'' The matter has been under considera­tion by the Department, but a decision has not been given. When the matter is decided, the hon. member will be advised.''

COMPE!\SA1'ION, RAILWAY ACCIDENT ON TOOWOOMBA RANGE.

Mr. YEATES (East Toowoomba) asked the Minister for Transport-

" What amount of compensation, if any, was paid in respect to persons either killed or injured in connection with the Dirran­bandi mail train smash on the Toowoomba Range about three years ago, stating names of persons and amounts paid to each respectively~''

Hon. E. J. WALSH (Mirani) replied-'' The total amount of compensation

paid was £730 14s. 6d., which ineluded costs to be deducted. The number of people who received compensation was 12, the minimum amount received by any one person being £2 7s. 6d., and the maximum £300.''

EMOLUMENTS OF TEACHERS IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS.

R.ETURN TO ORDER.

The following paper was laid on the table-

Return to an Order made by the House on 19 September last, on the motion of Mr. Walker, showing emoluments of teachers of primary schools.

TRADE DESCRIPTIONS (TEXTILE PRODUCTS) BILL.

INITIATION IN COMMITTEE.

( 'l'he Chairman of Committees, Mr. Manu, Brisbane, in the ehair.)

Hon. T. A. FOLEY (Normanby-Secre­tary for Health and Home Affairs) (11.4 a. m.) : I move-

''That it is desirable that a Bill be intro­duced relating to trade descriptions of textile products, and other ineidental purposes.''

After a perusal of the file of the Depart­ment of Agriculture and Stock I find that a request from the Seleetors' Association of Queensland dating back to 1938 was made to the then Secretary for Agriculture and Stock, Hon. F. W. Bulcoek, that some move be ma'de towards legislation for the labelling of manu­faetured woollen goods to show the proportion of wool in them. A little further on the file showed that the matter was set down for discussion at the Australian Agrieultural Council and was Item 25 on the agenda. A motion was carried at the conference that it be recommended that the matter be left in abeyance until the International Wool Secretariat made certain investigations. Those investigations were eventually made, and it was recommended that a·ction be taken by the various States along the lines that we are follO\Ying here today. Why action has been delayed so long I do not know. It appears, as has been the case with all progressive and protective legislation, that it was left to a Labour Administration to make the first move. (Opposition dissent.) That move was made by the Federal Labour Minister for Commerce and Agriculture, who has appealed to the various States to pass uniform legis­lation on the subject.

Agreement has been reached at the con­ferences at which he has raised the matter that the States shall legislate on similar lines to the Bill we are introducing this morning, that is, requiTing that all textiles shall be properly and adequately labelled for the pro­tection of the buyer from illicit dealings for the purpose of inducing the sale of goods as having a wool content, when they are of syn­thetic fibre.

llir. Pie: Does that apply to all textiles a part from wool~

llir. FOLEY: Yes. The Bill aims at the truthful labelling of textile fabrics. It aims at the TJrotection of the consumer from imposition through the false labelling that

Trade Descriptions (7 NOVEMBER.] (Textile Products) Bill. 1299

has been practised by persons who have marked synthetic fibres as wool. It also aims at the protection of the wool industry and the cotton industry, t\Yo important industries in this State, from both the primary and the manufacturing point of view. It is intended to give a measure of protection to them both, if possible. In future, as a result of this and similar measures to be passed in the other States, each fibre will compete on its merits. That is to say, if the woollen manufacturers of Australia and other parts of the world are not able to turn out a cheap, attractive and serviceable wool or cotton product, naturally they must expect to give way to the inroads of the synthetic product, which has already made a great advance in public favour. In the ten years just prior to the war, the world production of rayon and staple fibres quadrupled, to equal in weight the world production of wool. In the same period cotton, which was six times the world production of wool in weight, also increased, and it would appear from the .efforts now being made, at this late stage, that the people engaged in the production of wool realise that saturation point has been reached. In other words, it has been possible to absorb synthetic fibres as well as woollen and cotton fibres on the world's markets but saturation point has been reached and one or the other must give way. The product that catches the imagin,ation of the public and can be sold at the lower price and made into attractive garments will win the da'y.

Some idea of what the inroads of synthetic fibres will mean to this State and the effect they will have on the industry and whether it is worth protecting can be gained from the fact that 40,000 persons are engaged in the wool industry in Queensland, including those employed in the pastoral and breeding sides, shearing, wool-scouring, transport and dis­tribution, and in mills, and in catering for the needs of these. In addition, 70,000 persons, principally wives and children, are dependent on these workers. The total num­ber of persons dependent on the woollen industry is approximately 110,000, so hon. members vYill realise that it is of great importance to this State and worth protecting. In 1937 the gross value of wool produced was £9,055,000, and in 1944 the estimated value is £13,750,000.

I do not claim to be an authority on this matter, but I have endeavoured to read up the information available, and I find that rayon and staple fibres are principally manu· factured from the beech and spruce forests of the world.

Other synthetic products on the market 'but to a lesser extent than rayon are vinyon and nylon, which are products from coal. Then we have lanitol and aralac, products manufactured from casein and the soya bean. Science has made remarkable progress in manufacturing from those raw products fabrics that the layman and quite often the expert find it difficult to distinguish from the natural woollen product.

I desire to sound a note of warning, how­.ever, because although Australia is passing

legislation in an effort to protect the wool industry, woolgTowers and persons engaged in other branches of the industry should not be lulled into a sense of false security. This legis­lation itself is not enough to protect the wool industry although it will do much to enable our woollen products to compete on the Aus­tralian market with the synthetic fabrics. On the other hand, the woollen interests can do much to help themselves by concentrating on an investigation into ways of improving the quality of wool, the weight of fleece and methods of manufacture. Great improve­ment is possible in distribution also. Another desirable line of investigation is the possi· bility of producing woollen fabrics cheaper than the synthetic product the quality of which is equal to this competitor. The woollen industry is alive to the position. Last week a fund was established for a research and publicity call\paign. In order to create this fund the wool interests imposed a levy upon themselves of 2s. a bale, and. this, with the subsidy granted by the Commonwealth Govern­ment, gives the fund a credit balance of £600,000. This money is to be expended upon investigating the problems confronting the industry. I feel that even this will not be enough to enable the wool industry in Australia to compete successfully against synthetic fabrics.

Mr. l'ie: They will never compete on price.

illr. FOLEY: For the benefit of hon. members, I should like to compare the atti­tude adopted a few years ago by woollen interests with their stand at the present time. A reprint from Dalgety 's Annual Wool Review of 1933-34 showed that at that stage the wool interests of the world and Australia did not appreciate the inroads being made into their industry by synt;hetic fibres. That review said-

'' The woolgrower has always had faith in the supremacy of wool as the ideal raw material for the clothing of humanity and has refused to be alarmed when sensational stories were told of the success of science in producing a substitute for wool. There have been many such substitutes but they have all failed to do anything more than resemble wool in outside appearance. The peculiar properties of the animal fibre have defied all the efforts of the chemist. In a recent address Dr. Barker, Director of the Wool Industries Research Association declared that wool was still the paramount factor in the clothing industry.

"It had held its own against all corners, and there was no reason, he said, why its dominant position in the textile industry should not be maintained.''

Then Professor King, of the Chair of Textile Industries at Leeds University, expressed the same view.

'' The woolgrower need, however, lose no sleep over this development so long as he continues to improve his stock and the yield and quality of his clip and so main­tain the supremacy of the animal fibre.''

1300 Trade Descriptions [ASSEMBLY.] (Textile Products) Bill.

Those were the views expressed in 1933-34. Today there is a different opinion. At t,his late stage the industry has awakened to the fact that it may have to spend a tremendous amount of money to put it on a successful competitive basis with synthetic products. It is said today-

'' .Much gloomy comment has been made regarding the future use of wool. The risk of synthetic fibres displacing it in some fields is having good effects in stimu­lating the use of talent for the production of more attractive woollen fabrics. The lightness, beautiful design and finish of some of the dress materials turned out show that ·the trade is on the offensive to capture new outlets for its products as well as retain those previously held. l"rom time immemorial the sheep's staple has been mankind's most desirable textile fibre, because of its outstanding utility. Science, by discovering methods to prevent shrinkage in the goods made from it and to impart a silky :finish to it, has put it on the right road."

Again, yesterday, commenting on the research and publicity plan announced by the Prime Minister (Mr. Curtin), t,he chairman of the Australian Wool Board (Mr. D. T. Boyd) said-

'' The growers would certainly agree to the levy of 2s. a bale.

''The best insurance the wool industry could have was an assurance that the con­sumer was fully and convincingly informed that the durability and warmth of wool could not be duplicated by any other fibre, synthetic or natural.

''Growers were worried about competitive fibres, because they were being sold to the world by high-pressure methods, and the wool industry hitherto had depended too much on the intrinsic superiority of its product.''

I quote those comments to show that the wool industry realises the urgency of turning out better products made of wool, so as to be able to meet successfully the challenge by synthetic fibres.

The Bill provides that textile products shall not be sold unless particulars of composition are attached thereto. No person shall sell any goods unless there is applied to such goods a trade description printed on or woven into or securely attached in legible characters conspicuously placed so as to be clearly visible containing particulars of the propor­tion per centum by weight of the respective fibres or other materials of which the goods are composed. That is really the basis of the Bill, its main principle-the proper labelling and the proper indication of the composition of t,he goods.

The Bill also provides that no textile goods are to be marketed unless properly described. It prohibits the use of the terms ''artificial wool,'' ''imitation wool,'' '' syn­thetic wool,'' ''substitute wool,'' or any other expression that includes the word "wool" in relation to any substance that is not wool.

Provision is made for prohibiting false trade descriptions. A false trade descrip­tion shall be deemed to haVe been applied if it is-

(a) woven into, impressed on, or other­wise worked into, or annexed, or affixed to goods or any covering label, reel or thing connected therewith;

(b) used in a manner likely to lead to the belief that it describes or designates, or

(c) used whether in an advertisement or catalogue or otherwise in any manner in connection with or for the purpose of the sale of goods.

The Bill will apply to textile products such as woven, knitted, felted or @ther materials manufactured from fibre and articles of wearing apparel manufactured in whole or in part out of such material. It includes also such things as blankets, rugs, tops and yarns.

The trade description shall contain par-ticulars of proportions of-

(a) virgin wool; (b) reprocessed wool; (c) each fibre other than wool if the

percentage by weight of such fibre is 5 per centum or more;

(d) all ot,her fibres; (e) any non-fibrous loading, filling or

adulterating material in such goods ..

Where goods contain at least 95 per cent. by weight of virgin wool, the description ''All wool,'' ''Woollen goods,'' or ''Pure wool'' will be sufficient.

You will note from that brief description, Mr. Mann, that the position is covered pretty fully. In future not only the consumer but the industry itself will know exactly the constitution of the product and the proportion of different fibres marketed.

The Bill also gives power to make regula­tions prescribing what goods are to be labelled and declaring exempted goods. Pro­vision is made for penalties for the violation of any principle laid down in the Bill. For the first offence a fine not exceeding £50 may be imposed, and for the second offence a fine not less than £50 and not exceeding £200. There is also provision for the forfeiture of the goods if the magistrate deems it desirable.

I have indicated as briefly as possible what the Bill aims at, in order to g)ive the Committee some idea of its contents. When the measure is passed it will not only give a greater mea·sure of protection to the con­sumers of this State, who naturally are not in a position to judge .exactly the con­stitution of various fabrics that are placed before them in 'the retail houses, .but a measure of protection also to the industry, which, in view of its value to Queensland, is highly desirable.

llir. PIE (Windsor) (11.26 a.m.): I listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks of the Minister introducing what is probably one of the most important Bills

Trade Descriptions [7 NovEMBER.l (Textile Products) Bill. 130i

that haYe ever been brought into a Parlia­ment in Australia in relation to the textile trade. I have had the opportunity of study­ing the Victorian Bill, upon which, I under­stand, this Bill is based. The only differ­ence I see between the two is that the Victorian Bill is based on the Goods Act of 1928.

JUr. Foley: We are following the Health Act.

Mr. PIE: I shall have to compare our Health Act with the Victorian Goods Act of 1928.

Mr. Foley: The basic principle is the same.

JUr. PIE: This Bill has two main pur­poses. It will be welcomed by all honest textile manufacturers throughout Australia; there is no question about that. Its first aim is to protect the woollen manufaeturing industry against unfair eompetition by imita­tion or synthetic fabries. I can vouch for the fact that for a considerable number of years this imitation has been going on throughout Australia and had a'n unfair effect on the people. This Bill is also designed to protect purchasers from being sold materials containing shoddy or substitute woollen goods.

'rhere should be no need for me to stress to this Committee the importance of Aus­tralia's woollen industry. Australia, as we know, is the greatest sheep-raising and wool­producing eountry in the world. Comparisons show that there are more than 125,000,000 sheep in Australia, as against 84,000,000 in Russia, 53,000,000 in the United States of America, and 43,000,000 in Argentina. Y on '"ill see, Mr. Manu, that Australia's sheep population is much greater than that of Russia, and mora than double that of the United States of America. Australia is easily the greatest wool country in the world. She produces more than one-half of tl1e world's supply of fine merino wool. That is known to every man interested in wool throughout Aus­tralia. By scientifie researeh over the past 40 years Australia has improved her wool­producing ca'pacity from 6 lb. to 9 lb. a sheep. Australia should for ever be grateful to the pioneers of our wool industry, who, by their courage and initiative, have raised our wool standards to such an extent.

Figlilres in relation to the produetion of wool in Australia for five years prior to the war will be of interest. They are--

1935 1936 1937 1938 1939

Value of Wool £

52,000,000 56,000,000 47,000,000 42,000,000 57,000,000

Now let me quote the war years­

£ 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944

65,000,000 61,000,000 63,000,000 73,000,000 74,000,000

Hon. members will see the value of this wonderful industry to Australia; and it is a growing value. I agree of course that the increase in exchange values and prices has affected the amounts I have quoted but the fact remains that Australia can ne\'er develop unless we protect our great '"ooli.:n industry.

Prior to the war the average value was £65,000,000, and Australia herself used only £7,000,000. During the war we have increased our consumption in Australia to about £9,000,000 a year. The wool exported overseas represents 3 7 per cent. of Australia's exportable wealth. I quote these figures to give a background to support my contention that Australia must develop her manufaetures round this wonderful wool industry. To think that we use only £9,000,000 of an average production o:f £70,000,000 seems deplorable, especially when this country can produce some of the best textiles in the world.

Mr. Devries: If we are permitted to do it.

Mr. PIE: We are permitted to do it.

It is interesting to know that there is a surplus of approximately 10,000,000 bales of wool, 6,000,000 bales of which is held in Australia:. The British Govern­ment built stores to house that wool. Whatever criticism we may have of the wool stabilisation scheme, the British Government did a wonderful job in looking ~tfter the Australian wool surplus.

Now I come to woollen manufactures, round which the Bill is built. To my mind they have already played an important part in Australia's development, and will certainly play a much more important part in the years that lie ahead. Australia today can produce, without Government res.trictions the world's greatest woollen goods. We had what I teTm a debacle as a result of the Government's interfering with textile manu­facturers, telling them what they should pro­duce and should not produce, little knowing that by those regulations they were taking away from the goods produced their wearing quality. I refer particularly to the stupid order that was issued altering the weft and the warp of the material produced by textile manufacturers, which had a very damaging effect on the quality of the product. Aus­tralia can produce goods equal to the world's best; she can produce woven textile goods of the finest quality in the world. I have proved that on many occasions by eomparing our products with overseas products. Today woollen manufactures are established in all parts of the world. We are producing huge quantities of blankets and sending them to America. These blankets are made from really good wool, not from reclaimed wool. I desire to pay my tribute to those enterpris­ing manufacturers who can produce, free from Government interference, goods of the best quality in the world.

Up to June 1941 Australia used approxi­mately 408,000 bales only and in 1944 the consumption had increased to 448,000 bales,

1302 Trade Descriptions [ASSEMBLY.] (Textile Products) Bill.

Surely those figures alone indicate that the manufacturers of Australia, during the war anyhow, have endeavoured to play their part in meeting their requirements of our Austra­lian nation and of those American visitors who have been here. I have seen goods produced for our American allies that have been will­;ingly accepted by them. Disposing of the 10,000,000 bales, 6,000,000 of which is lying ;here, may be a problem, but I think that after . the war the immediate requirements of all nations will quickly absorb that surplus, because whatever you say about synthetics they can never replace wool.

Mr. Foley: That is, in quality.

:Mr. PIE: Yes. In price they are much lower. I will explain later. It was very interesting to note that the Commonwealth Government had taken some action towards spending £600,000 on wool research. It is not before its time.

Mr. Foley: Will that be enough~

Mr. PIE: No, not for this great woollen industry of Australia, which brings wealth to this country to the extent of £7 4,000,000 per annum. Why not do the job properly~

Mr. Collins: It would be a good start?

lUr. PIE: I admit that and I welcome any Government making that start. After the war the Eastern markets will be looking for products from Australia. In fact, the world's markets will be looking for our goods if we manufacture them to a good stanilard. Indeed, one reason why I welcome this Bill is that it will protect that high standard. 'rhere is a clear responsibility on all Australians to make a real effort to buy a greater quantity of pure woollen goods. If the people of this country will not use and give preference to our primary and manufactured products they are not worthy Australian citizens.

The American people have already appre­ciated the value of the principle of this Bill, because, in 1939, they pa'ssed an Act for the labelling of textiles. As a matter of fact, our Bill has been modelled on it. A Press report, dated Perth (Western Australia), 15 Decem­ber 1941, states briefly that the American laws are designed to protect the public and wool-producing industry from unfair mer· chandising of textiles detrimental to the interests of wool. Wool-fibre contents of a11 textiles must now be disclosed by means of labelling, and it is obligatory to state the percentage of re-processed and re-used wool as distinct from new and virgin wool in all materials.

Being interested in this question, I made it my business to procure a copy of the American Wool Producing Labelling Act of 1939, and the regulations under it. America is the only nation in the world that has gone into the question of labelling, and any gar­ment that one buys in America of woollen c·ontent is labelled very clearly with the exaet percentage. Greater consideration ehould have been given to the America'n Act because it has worked effectively since 1939,

but to state briefly what the protection in the Australian Bill means I would point out that American manufactured woollen goods are labelled, ''Made of 60 per cent. wool,'' or ''Forty per cent. re-used wool.'' "What I mean by ''re-used'' wool is this ....

}Ir. Nicklin: Shoddy.

lUr. PIE: Not exactly shoddy. In a factory, first of all there is the cut waste . In some factories that runs to £80 or £90 a week. That is re-garneted, re-teased and re-spun. The result is what is called dead wool. Of course, that has bean previously spun but not used in the garment. The cutting waste in the factory is gathered together and sent to the mill again. There it is re-gameted and re-spun. 'l'hat is what is called re-used wool. It is the wool that the American people are solidly protected againEt. Then there is the wool that goes out in garments, is used and then comes back. It is torn up then on a garneting machine and then re-spun. That wool is very dead. In the past I have seen garments made from that wool sold in Queensland and labelled ''pure wool.' ' About 3 years ago I reported the fact to the Department of Health and Home Affairs.

Mr. Hanlon: The trouble there was that it could still be pure wool.

Mr. PIE: Yes, that is the trouble. lt was greasy, horrible, dead wool.. I rel?orted to the Department of Health 1mmed1ately. At that time I was not at all interested in politics. It was obvious that the goods pro­duced were in the tl'ue sense of the wonl not pure wool. Hon. members must not forget that those goods were labelled ''Pure wool.'' Moreover, in pre-war days cotton could be bought at approximately 2s. 6d. a lb. and taking wool costing approximately 7s. :1 lb. spun and mixing it fifty-fifty 'IYith cotton, what should cost about approximately 7s. a lb. could be bought at 5s. a lb. on the average. If it was made from pure wool the same garment would cost about 7s. in wool alone. Under this Bill the manufac· turers vvill have to label that product · ':30 per cent. pure wool and 50 per cent. cotton,'' and the public will know what they are buying. I could produce goods that would defy anyone to pick the cotton in it.. You can lay off the front or off the back, 1t ~an be woven in such a way that no-one can 1nck it out. As a matter of fact, most of our suiting materials have a percentage of s!lk ?r some other material and no-one can nohce 1t.

I will hand a copy of the American Act to the Minister later if he is interested. It certainly covers the ground well. I have had experience of buying American goods over­seas, and I know that they have made a wonderful job of their Act. If the people of America appreciate the value of wool, as their Act indicates, surely we people of Aus­tralia, the greatest wool-producing country in the world, should make a: move to have this problem treated not only as an Australian but as an international matter. Such a move must be made very quickly, especially in the post-war period. Why cannot Great Britain

Trade Description, &c., Bill. [7 NoVEMB:E.R.] Supply. 1303

la bel her textiles as America does and as we ]Jropose to do~ If the matter could be approached on international lines, starting with Great Britain, I feel sure that only good would result. The honest industrialist welcomes this measure because it will pro­tect him from the dishonest manufacturer.

The Victorian Act enables regulations to be made, and I think the Minister said that that would be possible under our measure. The efficient carrying out of this measure will depend on those regulations; they will have to be drastic. Here again I refer the Minister to the American regulations, which impose drastic penalties on dishonest manufacturers, and have been eminently successful.

There are extremely sharp differences throughout Australia in connection with this mea·sure, not so much amongst woollen manu­facturers as manufacturers of rayon goods. N atura~Iy they desire to protect their interests as much as possible, but I can produce goods manufactured from wool, wool and rayon, ,·ery dead wool, reclaimed wool, all of which have been sold in the past as pure wool products. This misrepresentation must be stopped. Recently I attended a conference in :uelbourne of the Federal Clothing Tex­tile Advisory Council, which spent a con· sidera ble time on the question of the labelling uf textiles, and passed the following resolu­tion-

'' That this Council favours an honest branding Act and refers the matter to the Executive for further consideration.''

All States should pass similar legislation and we ha. ve the Minister's word for it that that will be clone. It is absolutely useless for one State to pass one Act and another State to 1 a~s something different. The former Secre­tary for Health and Home Affairs will agree ~. ith that beca'use he remembers what hap­pened in connection ·with olive oil when we ilau that kind of legislation. Unless this State insists that all States pass similar Acts "·e shall have the same trouble. I suggeRt therefore that this Act should not be brought into _force until the Minister is absolutely certam that all States intend to pass similar legislation.

Goods are being sold on the market to-day as silk and rayon goods that in point of fact contain only one per cent. of pure silk. That one per cent. is included merely to enabie the manufacturer to label his goods ''Silk and rayon.'' That is misleading the public, and that is why I asked the Minister if this Bill would apply not only to wool but to all other textile products. The advantage of the Bill to the manufacturer and the buyer is apparent. One can imagine a buyer buying hosiery with only 1 per cent. of pure silk :md the rest rayon and selling it as silk and rnyon in competition with hosiery that is 50 T·er cent. pure silk and 50 per cent. rayon. This inferior merchandise gives the seller a clefinite a'clY:mtaQ'e over the manufacturer who io prepared to do the decent thing. I there­fore hope that the Minister will give every eonsideration to matters outside the woollen industry.

On the second reading of the Bill I shall endeavour to give further details as to what it will mean to the trade throughout Aus­tralia. At this stage, I feel certain that the Bill as outlined will meet with the approval of all honest textile ma·nufacturers through­out the Commonwealth.

Motion (Mr. Foley) agreed to,

Resolution reported.

FIRST READING.

Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Foley, read a first time.

SUPPLY.

RESUMPTION OF COMMI'l'TEE-ESTIMATES­ELEVENTH AND TWELFTH ALLOTTED DAYS.

(The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Mann, Brisbane, in the chair.)

ESTIMATES-IN-CHIEF, 1944-1945.

DEPARTMENT OF MINES.

CHIEF OFFICE.

Debate resumed from 2 November (see p. 1272) on the question-

'' That £26,842 be granted for 'Depart­ment of Mines-Chief Office.' ''

Mr. J. }'. BARNES (Bundaberg) (11.51 a.m.) : The Queensland Government are sitting back allowing the Mt. Isa mine to be ~losed and at the same time permitting the lmport of copper from South Afriea. It will be recalled that just prior to the outbreak of war Japan had conquered the textile markets of the world and so successful was she that she was actually able to sell in Manchester itself what are regarded as Man­chester goods. Of course it will be asked how she was able to do that and the reply is that it was because the Japanese Government ~lad fin~ncc? and protected the manufacturing mclustncs m Japan. Therefore, it becomes the duty of the Queensland Government to extend the same helping hand to our local mining industry at Mt. Isa. It will also be remembered that when Japan was able to place her textile goods on almost any market rn the world the Australian £1 was worth 27s_. 6cl. _in J_apan and in England only 158., winch wrll grve some idea of the extent to which Japanese textile industries had been helped and protected by their Govemmcnt. If the Japanese Government can do these things in relation to their own industries. why cannot we as a State Government do the same thing in this country in relation to our copper production~ I have not the slightest doubt that it can be done and by a verv simple method, but I shall not be allowed to mention it on this vote. It is a shame thn t. a Queensland copper industry should bP allowed to collapse when copper is urgently required in this country and has to be· imported from overseas. Someone has decided that it must be imported into Australia. WhO> is that somebody and what are the influences at wark~ If we· can find that out we calll get clown to the real cause of the trouble.

1304 Supply. [ASSEMBL Y.l Snpply.

Mr. Gair: The international Jews?

Mr. ;r. F. BARNES: The hon. gentleman has It m one guess-the international Jews in other words the international banks. '

The Minister mentioned a very glaring thing in the course of his speech the other day on these Estimates and really advanced one. of the strongest arguments in the world agamst the adoption of socialism and com­munism when he said that the only two State mines in Queensland showed a loss, and that at a time when copper and coal are urgently required by the nation. It may be that the Minister thought he justified those losses. If he convinced himself he did not convince me. I realise that just strikes are necessary. As a matter of fact, I contributed to a strike in one part of the coal-mining industry to the extent li>f £1 a week while it lasted-! could not afford to give any more. I contributed because it was a just strike. Oftentimes strikes are engineered some 12 months pre­vious to their taking place. A person who has union matters at his finger tips is put into employment in a particular industry, say the coal-mining industry. The weaknesses in conditions are selected. I do not care what job it is, there is always a weakness in its conditions. These persons select the condi­tions with these weaknesses and accentuate them. The organisation behind these men pay them £5 or £10 a week in addition to the wage ruling in the industry. As a result a strike is ultimately caused that was planned 12 months previously. We are going to have serious trouble in the coal-mining industry. Coal is necessary for transport and therefore it can hold up that vital industry as well as other industries.

I told this Chamber on another occasion that we are going to have a revolution. I told it that this revolution will be caused by hungry bellies. Those hungry bellies will in part be brought about by a large strike throughout Australia. My advice has never fallen on sympathetic ears although it is receiving more sympathetic attention today than ever before. Believe me, Mr. Manu when this time arrives you will see that th~ present strikes throughout Australia-and there are plenty of them today-will develop into one big strike. It is the policy of the Com­munist Party to unite all unions. That in itself will bring about the desired goal­revolution. I compliment the Queensland coal-min~rs on having used good judgment in not havmg rushed into strikes as in other States.

I remember four years ago addressing a Trades and Labour Council. I told its mem­bers how disputes were brought about. I told them too that just strikes were absolutely necessary. They should not be necessary but in view of present conditions they are neces­sary. I told them too how these strikes were engineered, just as I told this Committee a fpw minutes ago. I at one time took some part-I will not say in what district-in averting a strike.

There is one other matter I wish to refer. Blair Athol contains what is, I suppose, one of the greatest seams of coal in Queensland,

if not in Austmlla, and it is practically unde­veloped. Some 12 months ago I distributed a booklet to every hon. member in relation tG establishing an industry at Blair Athol. It outlined the crude-oil position in Australia. as well as the possibility of extracting crude oil from Blair Athol coal. It stated that petrol could be produced from Blair Athol coal at 1s. 4d. a gallon. I am open to cor­rection on those figures, as I have not read the booklet for about 12 months. Nothing has been done about the matter, notwithstand­ing that we in this country are very short of petrol. If petrol can be produced from Blair Athol coal at 1s. 4d. a gallon, we should have done something about it. If petrol was so produced our farmers could obtain suffi­cient petrol to step up production and thus avert this revolution. That is the reason why nothing would be done about it. The Govern­ment have just stood by and allowed Blair Athol to remain undeveloped. That is shock­ing and a shame. I do not advocate the production of petrol from coal in Australia under ordinary circumstances but I do advo­cate it to meet our war-time nee.ls. I do not advocate its production in ordinary times because on the 24 January 1927 t:le head of the Shell Oil Co. made the announcement that petrol cost 1d. a gallon at the oil refineries. Therefore, although under war­time conditions we should produce petrol from Blair A thol coal in normal conditions when possiJ:lly we do not want that petrol: we should Import what we need, because it can be produced at the low cost I have just quoted. By doing so we should not be wasting labour which in every instance is the domi­nating factor in production.

The. q-overnment may have thought I was not giVmg them credit for doing anything for the mining industry when I spoke the other night, but I admit the Government have done something. I give some credit to the A.W.U. for the part it played in getting better conditions for the men. But to think that in the year 1944 the mines are in their present condition is a disgrace to the Govern­ment. These men who go do"·n and work in the bowels of the earth should be given national consideration lilUJt unfortunately they are not. I do not refer to miners only as those who should get particular considera­tion; I include also the men who work in industries where conditions are similar; they too should get consideration such as a work­ing day two hours shorter' than at present. If the Government were progressive that would have been one of the measures put through during the last 10 years or perhaps 20 years ago. ~

One of the main causes of strikes in coal­mines and other mines is income tax, which was put on the miners by no other person than the John Curtin Labour Go'vernment. I should call them ·the supposed Labour Government-half Tory and half Communist Government. These men are working in the bowels of the earth all the week and perhaps one or tlwo hours overtime during the day, and have the opportunity of working during­the week-end for which they Garn £3, and as that amount is added to their weekly

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1305

earnings they have to give £2 of that £3 back to the Taxation Commissioner. Would you work during the week-end under those con­conditioiis, Mr. Mann~ You need not answer. I certainly would not. That is one of the main troubles in reference to strikes and it is brought about by no other than the people who control the Governments, both Labour and Tory. The international bankers tell the Government what they shall do but if a Government were game enough they would stand up and say that people on a salary ~nder a certain amount would not be charged mcome tax, let alone the man with a wife and one child in receipt of £150 who has to pay £2 17s.-imposed by a Labour Govern­ment. If the suppo·sed Labour Government would come back to Labour instead of being half Tory and half Communist you would get production from the coal-mines and all other :nines. I! is the_ same thing that is happening m other mdustnes, such as the wool industry or the cattle industry, when they are payina l8s. 6d. in th€ £ it is sabotaging productio;

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (12.4 p.m.): I feel it necessary that I should reply to the statements made by the hon. member for Bundaberg regarding the copper position in this State. They indicate that he knows little or nothing about the matter, otherwise he wo11ld not have said that the Australian market 1s closed 0r would be closed to the Mt. Isa Mining Com­pany after December of this year, so as to permit the importation of copper from So·uth Africa. That is not so. If the hon. member had been in the Chamber when I was speak­ing on Thursday evening, he would know that no copper is at present being imported from South Africa, but that an o1·der for copper was placed by the Australian Government when war started and the authorities in control of the manufacture of munitions had to loolr to all resources internal and external for copper, particularly for the manufacture uf munitions. As might be expected, it was not an easy matter to calculate the amount of copper that we should require; therefore these people rightly exploited every mine and even placed an order outside Australia. Unfortunately the transport of copper from South Africa was delayed because of the war and it was landed in this country when conditions had considerably changed and the manufaeture of munitions and the whole set-up had altered.

'At 12.6 p.m.,

Mr. DEVRIES (Gregory) relieved the Chairman in the chair.

Mr. GAIR: The Mt. Is a mine has been selected by the Mineral Production Commit­tee, acting for the Federal authorities, as the one to suffer because, as I stated the other evening, it has alternatives. Unlike the other mines in the Commonwealth, Mt. Isa can produce silver-lead and zinc in addition to copper. Unfortunately for Mt. Isa, how­ever, it is faced with the difficuJties of obtaining the man-power to enable it to revert economically and successfully to the production of silver-lead and zinc and also

of :finding a market for its products. I stated the other evening and I repeat that this Government are very much concerned about the position with regard to Mt. Isa and are doing everything possible to obtain a continuance of the Australian market for Mt. Isa production. We appreciate the position the Federal authorities are in and it is ridiculous for a member merely to wave his hand and say, ''This is because of the international Jews," or something else. That is so much stupidity. The question is whether the Federal Treasury is willing to :finance the building up of stock'-piles of copper in Australia and that has yet to be decided. Are the Federal authorities willing to take all copper produced by Mt. Isa or any other mines and to pay for that copper and build up a stock-pile for the post-war period V Whether that would be economically sound and wise at the present time is a matter of opinion and is a question that I believe calls for a greater knowledge of the mining posi­tion than that possessed by the hon. member for Bundaberg.

Mr. J. F. Barnes: How many shipments of copper came to this country from South Africa!

:ftlr. GAIR: I have no knowledge of any importation since the consignment from South Africa more than 12 months ago.

The hon. member advanced taxation as a reason for the limiting of the production of coal. I agree that high taxation has had some effect in reducing the man-power effort or production of coal but I believe, as I stated previously, that the coal-miners in this State have done an excellent job, irrespective of taxation or anything else. The statement of the hon. member might be true of some who hold lightly their responsibility in these times of great and grave national emergency and measure it in terms of pounds, shillings and pence, but the miners as a whole have done the job required of them with a disregard of taxation. The hon. mem­ber said that the Federal Government were wrong in imposing taxation on coal-miners. That also is a ridiculous statement.

:ftlr. J. F. Barnes: Excessive taxation.

Mr. GAIR: If we exempt coal-miners, where shall we stop~ If we permit any section of workers engaged in essential indus­try today to restrict their working time because of taxation it will be a very poor lookout for Australia and for the war effort generally. If we permitted coal-miners or other workers to limit their time because of taxation, what would happen V What would have happened when th~ railways of thi~- State were working at maximum pressure m the transport of troops, material, equipment and foodstuffs for our forces in New Guinea and beyond-when railway men were working 16 and 18 hours a day, and in some cases even moreW Did the men of the railway service of Queensland refuse to take a train out, because if they did they would earn an ext:a £3 and some of that amount would go m taxation to the Federal 'l'reasury~ No, they did not. They took out the trains they were

1306 Supply. r.ASSEMBLY.] s~;pply.

required to take out. They gave a maximum effort. Many broke down in health as the result of the task put on them. They did not stop to consider taxation. I pay my tribute to the railwaymen. I believe that the feeling of which the hon. member speaks may have operated to a small extent in the coal-mining industry-for that matter it operates everywhere-but it was only among the section who did not fully recognise their responsibilities in these troubled times and adopted a selfish attitude.

Fortunately the industrialists of Queensland and of Australia have recognised their respon­sibilities and played a magnificent and noble part in the war effort. They should not be criticised because one section, whether rail­waymen or any other, look at the matter from the point of view of pounds, shillings, and pence and the taxation they might have to pay. Everyone is paying taxation today and it would be unfair for any section of workers to be exempt. If tpe Federal Govern­ment or any other taxing authority exempted the coal-miners, would it not be reasonable for the waterside workers and other sections of employees in industry to ask ,for similar treatment~ The coal-miners do not want to be exempted. They are willing to play their part. They have played it and will con­tinue to do so despite the attacks that might be made upon them by some hon. members opposite.

Mr. POWER (Baroona) (12.14 p.m.): I congratulate the Minister upon the knowledge he has of the workings of pis department. No doubt he has obtained that knowledge by visiting many mining centres in the State that were never visited previously by ,a Minister of the Crown. He has done an excellent job during his short term as Minis­ter. The miners of Queensland have played a very important part in the war effort and I deprecate the attacks that have been made upon them by certain people. We all know the conditions under which the miners worked some years ago. We know too the enormous profits that were made by Baron Brown. It is also remembered by many thaL although he provided in his will that a certain amount of his money must be spent on horbe-racing he had little or no consideration for those miners who had amassed that wealth for him by working long hours under intolerable conditions. Tpis GorornmE,nt are to be congratulated on what they have done to improve conditions in mines. Although a number of mines are not quite up to standard the Government have passed regulations compelling mine-owners wherever possible to make their undertakings safe for those of their employees who have to work long hours underground in the winning of coal.

I pay a tribute to the miners for what tpey have done in the war effort and in particular to those of them who should be receiving miners' pensions today but who have gone back to work at the request of the Minister and others in order to step up the production of coal. Realising their responsibilities and appreciating the urgent

need for coal in times of war, these men have re-entered the mines to hew coal at a time when they should be enjoying relaxation after a life of hard toil.

An effort pas been made to increase the production of our coal-mines and the Minister and other members of the Cabinet have addressed miners in various parts with this end in view. It has not been suggested that the men should speed up but the necessity for greater output in times of national emer­gency has been pointed out to them. It was proposed that tractor-loaders and horse­wheelers be introduced into some mines, but the miners feared, because of their experi­ence of conditions before the war, tpat the mechanisation of the mines would mean that many of them would be thrown on the indus­trial scrapheap. I have vivid recollections of the time when I was employed as a clerk in the Department of Mines. One State mine was working three days a fortnight. Another mine, run by private enterprise-the Bowen Consolidated-was working only one day a fortnight. Hon. members can appreciate the position of the miners there who were trying to keep body and soul together and maintain a family with only one day's work a fort­night.

The miners believe that i.f labour-saving devices are installed and the industry is mechanised there will be a lesser demand for coal after the war than there is today and once again they will be exposed to the ravages of unemployment. It is the duty and responsibility of the Government and of private enterprise to see that these men, who have played their part nobly in the war effort in the winning of coal, are absorbed in other industries after the war if their services are not required in the mining indus­try. I think that if they had some guarantee that they would be absorbed in other indl!s· tries in such circumstances they would read1ly agree to the mechanisation of the mining industry but it is the fear of unemployment that troubles them today and it would trouble you and me, Mr. Devries, if we were in the position they are in.

Recently I had the opportunity of visiting the Blair Athol mine in the company of the Minister, Mr. Davis, the hon. member for the district, and Mr. Moore, M.L.A. for 0'.1erthyr. I was amazed to see the amount of coal in the Blair Athol seam but the working of it was aptly described by the Minister when he said that this wonderfully extensive seam was being worked with a Meceano set. However, as a result of his representations to the Federal Government, new and improved plant has been sent to the field to remove the oYerburden, and when this has been ~ompleted we shall spe a murh greater output. }'rom latest reports the amount of overburden removed amounts to 35,000 tons. There is much coal to be won there and it should be won, but it can be won only so long as the seam is worked on proper lines -that is, not by two or three Ruston steam shovels that have seen better days but by modern plant and machinery. As I said after the visit of the Minister and his represen­tations to the Commonwealth Government, the

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1307

work is now being carried out very well and we can look for a greater production from Blair Athol in the very near future.

Much has been said about industrial unrest in the mining industry, to which I wish to retort that Australia is not the only place that has industrial difficulties in the mining field. Similar strikes have occurred in other parts of the world, notably in U.S.A. and in England herself. Nor can it be said that the miners are always to blame-it takes two to create a dispute. If miners are com­pelled to work in the bowels of the earth in damp or dusty places that are not con­ducive to good health, it is only right that they should take a stand and ask for an improvement in their conditions. I have no time for anyone who causes industrial trouble in time of war for the mere sake of doing it, whether he is an employee or an employer. I admit that a few irresponsibles have caused some trouble but taking the miners by and large they have done an excellent job in the war effort in Australia, particularly in Queensland.

We have heard a good deal from hon. mem­bers opposite about the working conditions in the mines and in this respect there is a matter that I must again bring forcibly under their notice. My remarks do not apply to them all because some of them were not in Parliament when the action to which I refer was taken but they will remember that when the Moore Government were in power from 1929 to 1932 they abolished the Metalliferous Mining award and increased the working hours of the miners. I do not claim to have a very extensive knowledge of the working conditions in metalliferous mining but I know this that because of their long association with t;his type of mining a large number of men have contracted that dreaded disease, miner's phthisis, of which they can never be cured. The Moore Government must have had a knowledge of the conditions connected with these mines and the conditions under which the men work and it ill became them to abolish t;he award and increase the working hours.

The miners have done an excellent job so far as this State is concerned. The fear of unemployment is one problem that is troub­ling them, and we must consider it if there is to be mechanisation in our mines. I believe that machinery should not be the master of man; rather should man be the master of machinery. If by the introduction of machines into mines the output can be increased and the working conditions of the miners improved then mechanisation should take place. I go further, and say that mechanisation of our mine·s should not mean that men shall be thrown on to the unem­ployed market. We must find another avenue in which we can place the men so displaced.

In conclusion I congratulate the Secretary for Mines not only on the efficiency of his department but on having undertaken exten­sive tours of the mining areas in Queensland. He has visited mining centres that previously a Minister had not visited. He has, during his occupancy of this position, done an excel­lent job, and I feel tha't under his able and

capable guidance he will do a great deal not only for the department, but for those engaged in the industry.

At 12.27 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair.

lUr. HILEY (Logan) (12.27 p.m.): The extent to which copper production in this 8tate has been the subject of this debate tempted me over the week-end to examine the situation and in particular the methods of some of the great copper producers throughout the world. It is particularly to that matter that I wish to devote my time.

Queensland, in common with most other new countries, has shown a disposition to skim the cream off the milk of opportunity. That tendency has been displayed in other fields than mining. It has· been freely displayed in land settlement. Obviously the early settlers chose the richer land of the Sta'te, and only subsequently, on the exhaustion of those richer lands, did settlers enter into occupa­tion of marginal and other lands of lesser value. As with land settlement, so with agriculture. The records of this State show that the first tendency has been to produce the naps that were most readily grown and from which a most ready market was obtained. Naturally when those conditions came to an end farmers turned their attention to less favourable crops.

As with land settlement and with agricul­ture, so with mining. An examination of the 150 years' history of this State shows that the tendency has been to discover the rich opportunities that could be conveniently exploited. These have been the object of the principal mining activities in this State in the period that so far has elapsed in its history. There has not been anything near the sa'me degree of development of its low-grade min­eral deposits. It is, I believe, particularly in this direction that mining activity is enter­ing upon almost an entirely new phase of activity. It is probable that as we enter upon tha't stage of mining activity we shall find a vast change in our mining operations. The phase through which we have passed has seen a colossal number of mining activities worked by liiile groups of men, often one-man outfits. We have seen the prospector and the gauger-individuals well to the fore. We have seen a dei!fee of mechanisation, extremely small on the side of extraction and not over-elaborate on the treatment side.

I do not suggest that the possibility of rich strikes should be for ever excluded from our consideration. This State has reached a stage at 'rhich the rich individual strike ha's played its greatest part, and we must look for our future revelopme·nt to great low-grade deposits handled with a tremendous degree of mech­anisation to give us certain opportunities and definite advantages, whose exploitation will well repay the Sta·te.

In order to illustrate what is being done iu other parts of the world I have brought with me the annual report for the year ended 31 December 1943 of the Kennecott Copper Corporation, an American company. It hap­pens to be the world's largest producer of

1308 Supply. rASSEMBLY.] Supply.

copper and the world's second-largest pro­ducer of molybdenite.

When I read to you the figures of the ore that it handles, Mr. Mann, you will realise that the mining activities in this State fade almost into the realm of petty cash in com­parison with the huge output of this vast undertaking. I purposely brought these figures before the Committee because of the relation they have to what appears to be a very burning question with us, that is, the question of copper production. I propose later to show that some of the principles evidenced in them can be applied with equal virtue to other base metals, notably tin and possibly silver-lead. The Kennecott Cor­poration happens to have much in common with one of our big copper-producing con­cerns, Mt. Morgan. In 1943 59,515,348 tons of ore were mined on the properties of the corporation. In order to mine that 59,515,348 tons of ore no fewer than 48,901,570 tons of overburden had to be removed-virtually ton for ton. In 1943 copper production was no less than 1,274,377,957 lb., and its incidental production a mere 334,357 oz. of gold, 3,059,286 oz. of silver, 24,572,252 lb. of molybdenite. That is a simply colossal pro­duction.

I made it my business to calculate its value. I find that the values at Mt. Morgan which are at present regarded as being some­what unfavourable, to economic working, seem like utopian dreams to Kennecott. For example, whereas Mt. Morgan is putting through ore with a fair average of copper content of 2 per cent., the Kennecott average over 59,000,000 tons of ore is a mere 1 per cent. of copper. Their gold content is one-tenth of a dwt. to the ton, their silver con­tent 1 dwt. to the ton and molybdenite content ! lb. to the ton.

I know you will say that with such values it would be impossible for the company to work at a profit; that it is because of the great war necessity for these metals that such a huge concern is conducted, probably at the expense of the State, to ensure that its output is not lost to the nation.

The same report that shows this colossal increase of production shows that the divi­dend for the year ended 31 December 1943 was a mere 32,000,000 dollars, which shows it is an exceedingly profitable concern.

Mr. Jesson: What is the capital of the concern~

Mr. HILEY: 53,000.000 dollars, an·d its dividend for the year was 32,000,000 dollars. This is the world's largest copper-producing concern, producing on values that in this State we should say were so low as to be beneath our notice.

It may be thought that this production is possible as a result of low labour costs or black labour. Let us see, then, how this great undertaking is conducted. It has mines in Utah, in Nevada, and in Arizona. All these vast undertakings-and here I think we find the real secret, to which hon. members have made reference-are conducted with a degree of mechanisation that has reduced pro­duction costs to a point where even such

negligible values become highly profitable. There is reference to the Utah property where during this year tonnage records were estab­lished and production was the highest in its history. New equipment, which pertained mostly to ore haulage, comprised two large Mallet-type steam locomotives, three Diesel­type locomotives, 100 ore cars of 100-ton capacity, and 25 forty-cubic-yard dump cars for use in stripping. That is one property, and that is the expenditure for the mechanised plant for one year.

This corporation has some mines in Chili and that location may give colour to the thought, ''Here we are at least in a low wage country.'' Let us examine the position and see how the greatest producer of copper in the world handles its labour problems in Chili. The report states that workmen's pay in Chile for 1943 was increased in three steps; the first of 18 per cent. in January, a further 5• per cent. in June, and another .5 per cent. in November. The daily wages of workmen were increased by a total of just over 30 per cent. in that year. That does not look to be a low-wage country. Carrying on with the labour conditions in Chile, we find a Government housing scheme under which a law requires the investment of 5 per cent. of all profits on construction of housing for workmen, and in this year housing facilities for 79 families were completed at Sewell and improvements were made in other camps. An extension to the Sewell Hospital, dedicated to mother and child-welfare service, also was completed.

Mr. Walsh: What you are saying is strong condemnation of private enterprise in Queensland.

Mr. HILEY: What I am saying is that the mining industry in this State has passed the stage at which it must content itself with picking out tiny rich deposits and exploiting these with all the disadvantages that attached to that phase of mining industry in the past. Let us remember this: in Queensland much of our mining is being conducted on that basis and we have not provided good housing standards for the people engaged in the industry. Why1 The answer is, because there is no degree of permanency and no dependability in the industry. An attempt is made on an unmechanised basis to handle ric,h strikes but because of the nature of those strikes no attempt was made to handle the vast bulk of the product available to ensure that the country would be able to regard that enterprise as some­thing that would continue for generation after generation with a guarantee of per­manent work for a vast number of people. So we find that good housing has been one feature that has been sadly lacking in much of our mining industry. The health standards of many of our mining people have left much to be desired. So has the water sup:!.Jly. This too has been because there was no degree of permanency in the type of opera­tions carried on. I believe in the next stage that lies ahead of the mining industry, when it gets onto the lower-grade deposits that exist in Queensland, and brings mechanisation of working to the highest world standard, and

Supply, [7 N 0\'EMBER.] Supply. 1309

develops them on the basis that there is a solid useful life ahead for years and genera­tions, the evils that have attached to the conduct of much of our mining in the past evils of housing, water supply, health and things of that kind will and should be over­come. If private enterprise fails to deal with those evils, once dependence of the con­tinuity there is assured, it will be the bounden duty of whatever Government may have the occupancy of the Treasury benches to see that these evil features are corrected. But they cannot be cured until this depend­ance is brought into the industry because no-one will willingly set up capital assets, such as housing and other specific features, unless some dependence and continuity in the industry are guaranteed. I believe the dependence and continuity will be found in the exploitation of low-grade deposits, parti­cularly by the use of first class mechanisation.

I also believe that such a degree of mechani­sation will so affect the future of our mmmg activity that I should like the Minister to arrange for some of his younger departmental field officers to go overseas and inspect some of these vast undertakings and the way in which they are conducted, to study the methods and consider the advis­ability of bringing to Queensland a new vision of what would be possible for this State to perform in mineral production. Only by seeing some of these things in their physical reality can a real lesson be learned. It is very interesting to read figures but figures are quickly forgotten and they fre­quently fail to bring out more than one aspect of the truth of a matter. In a State such as Queensland there is no reason why there should not be many undertakings of the size of Mount Isa and Mount Morgan. Abundant reference has come from seve­ral quarters to the part mechanisa­tion must play in the future development of the industry and if the Department of Mines arranged for some of its leading field officers to go overseas and learn what can be learned it would be an advantage to the future con­.(tuct of the department.

A minute ago the Minister made some reference to post-war stock-piles. I should like to read to hon. members what the presi­dent of this great corporation said on the ·question-

" Much consideration has been given to the post-war situation as affecting copper and other non-ferrous metals. It is widely believed in the industry that provision should be made for the stock-piling in a permanent reserve of surplus primary and secondary strategic metals, alloys and scrap following the cessation of hostilities in Europe. Such stock-piling is most essential in the interest of national security in the event of a future war and more immedi­ately to safeguard employment and national economy.''

I feel that that view of the president of the greatest copper-producer in the world should be of interest to the Minister when dealing with our attitude to this question in Queens-1and.

When the Minister replies I should like him to deal with a point that has always intrigued me. I should like to know why it is that coal, with all its varied qualities and calorific values, with all its variations in the purposes to which it is suited, such as coke-making, gas-making, and steam-raising, and whilst some coals are of high ash content and others of low ash content-I should like to know why despite this variation of quality the prac­tice is to charge a uniform price for coal, no matter what the quality may be. I should like the Minister to inform hon. members of the basic principles that led the industry to be administered in that way. Frankly, I can­not understand it.

When speaking of mechanisation I omitted to mention what I feel could be done here. I know something about the tin industry in Queensland. Some hon. members know my connection with the company in North Queens­land that is the largest producer of tin in this Sta'te and has become the largest single pro­ducer of tin in the Commonwealth. It is important to note that in that industry we have a very apt illustration of how mechani­sation has enabled tin to be produced in Queensland in full competition with tin pro­duced in countries employing coolie labour. The company at Mt. Garnet, which works under full award conditions, carries out many of the functions of its dredge by mechanisa­tion.

Mr. Jesson: What is the housing like up there~

Mr. HILEY: Much of it has been pro­vided by the company. The department, which has helped this company to finance its operations, knows full well the extent to which the cost of housing forms part of a capital eost of the scheme. The housing there still leaves much to be desired; the progress that was being made was stopped by war activi­ties but the company has done much to improve housing conditions and has it in mind to do a great deal more.

At Mt. Garnet one of the functions carried out by mechanised means is the shifting of the side lines. The dredge manoeuvres in its paddock by means of steel cables operated by winches. Anyone visiting a dredge paddock at Malaya would see a couple of hundred coolies sitting under a tree waiting until the line has to be shifted. Those coolies then take the line and shift it to the position at which it is required. At Mt. Garnet that work is clone by one man driving a caterpillar tractor. If Australia is to maintain its well­worth-while ideal of White Australia and preserve a proper white standard of living for white Australians it is absolutely essen­tial that we organise our industries on a basis that avoids our asking white men to do coolie work. In order to do this we must take great care in all our activities, where there is a really valuable mechanical means of carrying out work, which is carried out fly coolies in black labour countries, to adopt that means. It is our bounden duty to see that we so organise our affairs that we employ these mechanical means in order to avoid ask­ing white men to do the work of coolie,.

1310 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

If we have the intelligence to do that then not onlv shall we be able to maintain our ideal of a White Australia, but something far more >vorth while, and that is a white man's 8tam1ard of living in a'n Australia of white people. Any attempt to carry out the work on the basis of coolie labDur can only result in breaking down the standard of living of all the people.

By the adoption of mechanisation it has been possible to carry out tin-dredging· Rllr­

eessfully at Mt. Ga'rnet, to the extent that those associated with the industry there feel that when the dredges are put back into operation in the Malayan fields with their black labour conditions the Qneenslnnrt inClus­try will be able to compete successfully with it. However, that is only possible because of the mechanised means that have been installed wherever possible on the Mt. Garnet field.

I!Ir. COLLINS (Cook) (12.49 p.m.): I drsire to compliment the Minister on the activity he has displayed in his department since he assumed control of it. It must be remembered that he came into the industry at a veTy difficult time, and that prior to his taking it over he had not been as closely asso·ciated with the mining industry as his predecessor, to whom I pay the compliment that he knew the industry inside out. He too did a very good administrative job while he was in charge of the department, but the present Minister also has displayed a com­petency and a knowledge in the control of the department that a're a credit to him and the Government. He had to contend with many difficulties, such as the problems of transport, of labour, of the varying policy of the Federal Government. but he has met them successfully and has conducted the department as carefully and as efficiently as it was nossihle for anyone to do in that position. Like his predecessor he travelled the mining fields of the State to get a first-hand knowledge of them. One readily understands that it is not easy for a Minister in charge of a department to spare the time to travel the State but I do not ~hink that any Minister cad get a proper m~ight into the potentialities of mining and a thorough knowledge of its difficulties unless he is able to see them close at hand. That can only be done by visiting the mining fields. Souni! administration in this sphere calls for tho application of expert opinions closely fol­lowed by the applica'tion of practical know-1Pdg0 gained by ascertaining the physical pos­sibilities of the mining :field by boring tests.

In this connection I commend the hon. mem­ber for Logan for his opening speech on the "'i''ing industry. He has made a very good contribution to the subjed, and his remarks concerning the Mt. Garnet Tin Dredging Coy., with which he is associated, were very interesting indeed. On a previous occasion I explained in this Chamber the methods employed by that company in exploring the field very fully before deciding to spend largE' sums on development, and what it has i!one should serve as a good example to others. I rlo not know it of my own knowledge, but I have been told that before this comnany

undertook to spend any large sums of money on the field virtually every square yard of ground was tested, and so the company was in a position to make a mathematical calculation concerning its mineral potentialities. Here again, of comse, there is the uncertainty of mining-accidents can occur, but th2 com­pany did have some idea of the total quantity of tin that it was possible to win there.

I believe that those self-same practical methods should be employed in other spheres of mining. I have in mind the statement made by the Minister last year and his prom­ise to the miners on the Chillagoe, Etheridge and Herberton mining fields. A complete survey could be made of their mining possibli­ties and the prospects of developing c~pper mining again on a big scale as well as s1lv~r, lead, zinc and other metals that we know exist in those fields. As the previous speaker has suggested, possibly the richest of the deposits have been mined. They have been more or less exhausted by the prospectors and the companies that followed up the prospectors. About 15 months ago, when the Minister was in Chillagoe for a couple of days, he dis­cussed with the miners there the future of metalliferous mining. We all recognise that we have to get down to working low-grade dr-posits cheaply with the aid of machinery, and bringing the industry up to the white man's standard of .vork. The employment of geologists working with inspectors of mines -they ha've very capable men in the depart­ment-and co-operating with men who have lived on the mining field and given their life to mining and know the field probably better than the geologist or inspector, will enable us to obtain most complete data as to the best methods to employ in the development of our mining fields. At that meeting the Minister had placed before him hundreds of possible shows. We have the knowledge that copper exists in the Chillagoe district. We have ample evidence that many other metals also exist there. The question is: What quantities of those metals exist and what will be the cost of winning them1 With proper investiga­tion we can avoid spending large sums of money uselessly. A complete survey of our mining fields and careful investigations win enable us to assess the quantity of minerals to be won and their value. We can by mathe­matical calculations work out how much a vard it will cost to work a mining field. As i)ointed out in this debate, one of the largest copper producers in the world works on ore of 1 per cent. copper content. That is a: very low percentage when compared with those of the many mines we have had working in the North that still contain considerable quan­tities of copper varying from 5 to 10 per' cent., together with in some cases 3 to 4 dwt. of gold. As I am reminded by the hon. member for Herbert, much depends on the tonnage there is to work. Unless there is a very big low-grade deposit, it would not pay to equip a: mine properly, erect the necessary machinery on the mine, and provide tran~­port, milling and other machinery. That 1s a bio- consideration. In gold-mining we must dete;mine whether the ore is free or refrac­tory. Some areas yield free ore, which is inexpemive to treat, whereas in nearly every

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1311

case on the Etheridge field the ores are refrac­tory a'nd these will not yield to simple methods of treatment. 'rhey must first be refined to a certain extent, and put through a smelting process eventually. Probably it would be necessary to establish production plants on the fields where the various mines are situ~ted, and winning the gold eventually by a smelting process.

In carrying out the big mineral survey that the Minister promised wiU be carried out in the North, I should like him tO' include the possibilities of developing the cement industry. The North contains all the elements needed. The question is not whether we have the material but whether we have the market. I believe there will be a great development in the North after the war is -over. Cement will probably play a major part in our mining operations. It may be po·ssible to connect cement-making with smelting at C'hillagoe. I realise the Chilla­goe smelters are under a separate vote, but 1 think it is pertinent that we should refer to that phase of it. The nearest cement works to Townsville is Darra, and I believe there is some arrangement whereby the Darra people do not supply cement north of Towns­ville, consequently the whole of that market is in the hands of interests in New South Wales-mainly the Cobble Creek people­and a good deal comes from Tasmania. It seems futile to cart cement all over the State, .~nd even though sea carriage is fairly cheap, 1f we can develop a major industry that will lead to decentralisation in the northern part <>f the State it wiU be of advantage. There are unlimited lime deposits at Chillagoe which is part of a limestone mountain. '

Mr. Brand: Is it suitable for cement?

Mr. COLLINS: Yes, and it is right on the spot.

Mr. Braml: Not all limestone is suit­able for cement.

JUr. COLLINS: It has been proved that the Chillagoe lime is suitable for cement. Apart from that, right against Cairns you nave the limestone deposits on the Barrier Reef, which are 98 per cent. lime and are now used at the Darra works. Surely with a little ingenuity and decentralisation we should be able to build up the industries that should exist there. I am sure the Minister will give consideration to the development of the industry in that area. For agricultural purposes alone it would be possible to handle lime at the Chillagoe smelters because 50 000 tons a year is required fur the canefi

1elds

:apart from other agricultural purposes in the North. Again superphosphates play a very big part in fertlisers, and these will come ~own from Ocean Island, from which Cairns is the first Australian port of call. To make a ·complete fertiliser you need animal fertilisers and we have meatworks at Cairns Mareeba and Townsville. We have all th~ elements e0f a tremendous industry. Nor must we {)Verlook the possibility of using cement in road construction. If it could be used to .supplement bitumen it would give us an 1.mlimited market right on the spot.

I, like other members, fully appreciate the work done by the· coal-mining industry in Queensland. I compliment the miners and the Minister on his co-operation with them. It has been successful in avoiding any big industrial hold-up in the industry. I realise the unpleasant kind of work the miner is doing underground, and I have in mind the big death roll that occur3 in mining from time to time, such as that at iY1t. Mulligan some years ago, wherz 7 4 men were killed instantly.

Men in coal and metalliferous mines take tremendous risks. Everybody must recognise that theirs is distinctly dangerous work and I strongly combat what is said by some as to their lack of loyalty in this time of stress. There is no lack of loyalty among the Mt. Mulligan miners. The Attorney-General informs me that they have not lost a day in 5 years and the hon. gentleman is in a position to know something about mining. That is a record for service in Australia. Another record of loyalty is that a greater or as great a percentage of young :men enlisted from the coal-mining town of Mt. Mulligan as from any other town in Aus­tralia. There is no lack of loyalty among coal-miners. Theirs is a very dangerous job and they are doing it willingly and well.

Mt. Mulligan is not a good mine as coal­mines go. The quality of the coal is good but the seam is small and small bands through it cause great difficulty in keeping the coal clean and to the standard required by the Railway Department, which is the principal customer. The Chillagoe Smelters at one time took a quantity and at the present time the Tableland Tin Dredging Company is tak­ing a quantity of the slack coal.

Like the hon. member for Logan I contend that coal should be sold more on the basis of quality than at present. The miners at Mt. Mulligan have a difficult job of sorting the foreign matter from the coal. This can readily be understood because there is no electricity in the mine and the only light the miner has is from )1is lamp. Probably a picking belt could be devised to clean the coal before it goes into the trucks, so that much better coal could be supplied to the Railway Department. It is distinctly unfair to firemen on locomotives to have to cope with the extra disadvantage of using coal containing a large amount of foreign matter.

Mr. Farrell: They have check inspectors.

Mr. COLLINS: That is immaterial. Under the conditions which th1s coal is mined, it is not poss.ible to have it free from foreign matter.

Jllr. Brand: It is marvellous they do the job they do.

II'Ir. COLLINS: They are doing a marvel­lous job and we should be wrong in not recognising that fact. We have to be per­fectly fair in this C)1amber. We must give our meed of praise to those who are doing a good job; we must level criticism against everybody who is not doing a good job, incluG.­ing ourselves. I pay tribute to the men at Mt. Mulligan, who have done all that was

1312 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

required of them. A meeting was held and the disadvantage the railways were suffering by having to use coal containing foreign matter was pointed out. The miners have responded and knowing that the Minister is sympathetic I believe he will help in P-aving a better job done for the miners and conse­quently a better job for the Railway Depart­ment.

Housing conditions do not come under this vote but on mining fields generally they are deplorable and at Mt. Mulligan the water supply adds to the disadvantages of the people on the field. These matters must be cor­rected if we are to have a more contented community.

I cannot pass from this vote without draw­ing attention to the quantity of wolfram pro­duced by the miners at Wolfram Camp which is a very ricP. field and has played a great part in the production of wolfram in Queens­land. In fact, it is the most important source of the mineral in Australia today. The resources there are unlimited, in fact their limits are unknown, but the difficulty is that wolfram is a metal that in time of war attracts a very high price-at present the men are making exceptionally good money -but afterwards it is not nearly so valuable. What is to happen when the war ends~ I should like the Minister to give me an assur­ance t;he present price of wolfram will stand as it is as long as the war continues. Molyb­denite has already dropped in price and while the miners are disappointed in conse­quence they appreciate the present rise in wolfram, but they would be much more con­tented if they had some security.

During the conference up there, in which they met Mr. Riordan, the Federal member, our Minister and myself, taxation was dis­cussed fully. They said that they would play their part so far as taxation was con­cerned, although it hit them tremendously. With the present high prices of wolfram it is possible that some of them are paying the maximum rate of income tax, and I submit that this would be an opportune time to set aside part of the proceeds from wol­fram-it could be deducted from the income tax-with a view to creating a special fund for the rehabilitation of the mining field when th€1 price drops, or for the maintenance of those mines that have been opened up as a result of the war. If they are main­tained it will avoid the necessity of dewater­~ng and placing them in working order, which 1t took two or three years to do this time. The money could even be used for estab­lishing these men in other industries. A start should be made now in creating the fund.

I know that it may be suggested that if this is done wi>th onel section of the community all sections should have the same treatment. It must be remembered how­ever, that wolfram is probably one 'of the most unstable of our metals. There is always a regular demand for tin, gold, silver and ~opper, but the .de:nand for wolfram is very Hregular and th1s 1s an excellent opportunity for making the provision I suggest.

(Time .expired.)

lUr. KERR (Oxley) (2.29 p.m.): I recog­nise the importance of the Minister's position and the load he has had to carry during this. war. He is responsible for the output of State coal-mines and he is certainly interested in the production of coal by private enter­prise. He has a very responsible position indeed, because coal is a very important war commodity and I am fully seized of the importance of maintaining our output and of increasing it if possible. To increase production would impose a big strain on ndners who, as hon. members have said, have· played a very important part in the war effort. At the same time, I regret that the State coal-mining ventures and coke under­takings disclose a substantial loss for the year ended 30 June 1944.

I appreciate what the Minister has told us about the cost of deve·loping the Bowen mine. I understand that the drop of 52,899 tons in the output was caused largely by the development work that took place this last year. The point about which I cross swords with the Minister is the method of presenting the State coal-mining accounts and of charging the whole of the costs of the development of that Bowen mine to the working costs of last year. If de·velopment work! extending over two or three years means that the mine will be capable of being worked to its fullest extent over the whole of its life, the cost of that development should be spread over the life of the undertaking. If the whole of it is charged to any one year it means that a substantial loss is disclosed whilst the following year substantial profits are earned. That is not right and I submit for the Minister's consideration a suggestion that some better system be adopted.

Let us consider for a moment the price obtained for the coal from the Bowen coal­mine. The reports disclose that the Railway Department bought 55,391 tons at 19s. 9d. a ton, and the Bowen coke works paid 17s. lOd. a ton. There were other sales at 2150.67d. a ton, whereas production costs amounted to· 19.ls. a ton. The production costs, so far as I can work them out from the returns I have taken in the Auditor-General's report, do not provide for all-in costs such as depreciation, interest, etc. Therefore it can be said that the production costs are not correctly stated. The sale price for the output of this mine· should be determined on the basis of the over­all costs, which I have calculated to be 24s. a ton, whereas the sales are made on an average of 21.65s. a ton, a loss of between 3s. and 4s. a ton. There are 17 5,2@5 tons under the heading of ''Other Sales'' at 2150.67d. a ton, and I should like to know from the Minister to whom this coal was sold.

In my opinion, the coal from this mine is· being sold far too cheaply. Substantial profits are being made by private companies in the sale of coal in the Brisbane area. Mv information discloses that Walloon coal is sold at 32s. 6d. a ton on rail at Woolloon­gabba and Blackheath coal at 27s. 3d. a ton on rail at W oolloongabba, yet this, coal is sold in the North at 20s. a ton. It appears to me that no attempt is made to-

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1313

recover the actual cost of the coal and I do not see why we should not charge a price that will give an over-all return and show some margin on the capital outlay of the mine. The prices are not in keeping with ordinary commercial practice, and regardless of whom the consumer may be, the price charged should be enough to cover all the costs and allow some interest on capital out­lay. The time may come when this mine will probably be worked out, and if no provision is made to recoup the capital outlay it will become a charge against Consolidated Revenue. In view of that fact, the price for the output of this mine should be consider­ably increased.

Mr. P ATERSON (Bowen) (2.36 p.m.): The Estimates of the Department of Mines are among the most important this Committee has to consider. Not only coal but all other minerals are very important raw materials in this State, and, for that matter, in the Com­monwealth. One of the difficulties that we are confronted with is that there are vested interests in this country that are more con­cerned with libelling the workers and mis­representing the position in order to gain political capital than they are with helping the nation to defeat Fascism. I propose to deal primarily with that misrepresentation which has been made concerning the coal­mining industry. If the people were to judge from our newspapers-that is, those news­papers controlled by the millionaires in this country-they would be led to believe that the miners were amongst the laziest, the most dis­loyal and the most unscrupulous members of the working class of Australia. It is true that exceptions are made in the case of Queensland, but these exceptions were not made by the enemies of the workers until facts and figures were placed before them so conclusive that they had to withdraw their charges so far as Queensland was concerned. It is not so many months since an hon. mem­ber of _the Opposition wrote to a newspaper and, without making IJ,ny distinction what­soever between Queensland miners and other miners, suggesting that there were large num­bers of miners in Australia who were causing trouble.

Let us examine the position. What do we find~ We find that in Queensland the miners are being given credit for having increased production. In Victoria there is no serious allegation that the miners are respon­sible for any falling off of production. In New South Wales the millionaire Press howls almost daily that there is a tremendous falling off in production in that State. The first question that must arise is: why is it that the position is so different in New South Wales from the position in Queensland and Victoria~ The miners in New South Wales are the same type of people as the miners in Queensland and in Victoria. They are mem­bers of the same miners' union. They are subject to the same miners' union discipline. I take it that hon. members will agree that these men are just as much in love with Aus­tralia and its people as the representatives of the class represented by the millionaire Press which so frequently maligns or slanders them.

1944-2T

Let me give the Committee a few figures. of the production for Queensland. Then we· can ask ourselves: what is the real cause of· the trouble, what brings about a state of· r1ffairs in which the New South Wales figures: do not show up favourably~ Let us take· Queensland. In 1938 we had a total pro­duction of 1,113,000 tons. Next year that production jumped to 1,317,000 tons. Next year, 1940, there was a slight drop to· 1,285,000 tons. Production next year was the· highest ever, reaching 1,454,000 tons. The production in 1942 was again the highest ever, reaching 1,637,000 tons. The 1943 pro­duction figures were higher than ever before,. namely, 1,699,000 tons.

It may be said that that huge increase was obtained by introducing a vast number of· miners into the industry. It is true that an additional number of miners were employed,, both underground and on ·the surface, but the increased production was actually greater than it had been, taken on the basis of the· actual number of men engaged in the industry. In 1938 2,495 men were engaged under­ground and on the surface. So it goes on to• 1943 when these figures increased to 2,881. The following figures indicate the output per­shift:-

Tons. 1938 3.02 1939 3.12 1940 3.31 1941 3.10 1942 3.22 1943 3.38

The last-mentioned figure is a record. Those· figures show clearly that at least the miners of this State have played their part.

It may be suggested, of course, that there­are special circumstances here in Queensland .. It may be suggested too that while those figures take the whole of the State into con-­sideration those for this year are left out. Well, the Minister, in his answer to the hon. member for East Toowoomba the other day,. gave the figures for the 12 months ended 30 June this year. What do they show~· That there has been a slight drop, from the· record of the previous 12 months. That slight drop works out at slightly less than 2~ per cent., that is to say, a drop of slightly less than 2~ per cent. on the previous year's. record figures. That drop was explained by the amount of developmental work that was, going on in the Collinsville State mine. If' our newspapers instead of trying to mislead the public would tell the whole facts, the· people would have a greater appreciation of the efforts of the coal-miners than some of' them have had up to the present.

I do not want to go into details of pro­duction at the State mine at Collinsville, as. I understand I cannot deal with it on this vote· because it comes under another vote, under­Trust and Special Funds. I do wish to mention this fact, however, that in the Collinsville mine· there has been a drop in production for the first six months of this year from the previous. 12 months, when there was a record. The record production at Collinsville was 306,148: tons in 1943 as compared with 145,537 tons. in 1940, an increase of over 100 per cent ..

1314 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

There was a decrease in the first six months {)f this year. As the Minister has explained that primarily was brought about by the fact that a number of men in the Collinsville mine -were diverted to developmental work.

It is true that a number of days have been lost in the Collinsville mine. But what .do we find W Four days in two years were lost as a result of fatal accidents. Does a.ny hon. member object to the men taking trme off when one of their mates is killed~ If they do . then they should object to wealthy drrectors taking many days -off to attend funerals of their wealthy friends when they pass out. We must not forget th.at the miners have to work underground wrth these men .. Naturally it is not very pleasm;t to contmue working underground a~ a time when one of their mates has mBt Ins ~eath. Then 10 days we:e lost through a rarlw.ay breakdown for whrch no-one was responsrble. If my memory serves me cor­:re~tly. tha.t breakdown occurred because a :rarlway bndge was washed away as a result of a flood. The deJ?artment cannot be blaJUed for that and certamly the miners at Collinsville cannot be blamed for it.

A. total .of 1~~ days were lost as a result -of mdustnal drsputes in two years-. Eight -of those days were lost on account of the blundering-I say . this deliberately-on account of the blundermg of certain Common­_:vealth. offi~ials ~n regard to meat rationing .m Collmsvrlle. The Secretary for Mines and the .minBrs' uni?n showed clearly that th·ey realised the mmers in Oollinsville should :receive special preference in me:tt rationing. Anyone who has lived in Collinsville and knows ~he conditions there will agree that thos~ mmers were thoroughly entitled to that specral treatment. Unfortunately the dis­pute was not settlBd in time to prevent a hold·ur:. The StatB Govmnment could not :settle rt-they could not give the men the {3Xtra meat ration-and the men were com­pelled to strike in order to gain their J. ust '{}ues.

Here I paus~ because therB is a tendency by the. wealthy mterests of this country to try to drnde the r;uner.s from the soldiers. When the ,worker stnkes rt is headlinBd. But they don t tell you ther? are .strikes in the Army­and there are stnkes m the Army let me make n.o bones about it. I was a~ay from Australia 12 months bar one day durinO" the last war, and there. were two strikes am~ngst the men I m;s wrth. I do not want hon. members to thmk I wa·s the cause of them­(Iaughter)--:because in those days I did nnt

1mow anythmg about politics. 'rhe news­papers n:ver told anybody about it. One of those stnkes was for better food, and I am please~ to sa:y the men won. Every time th.e mr;rers strrke or when there is an indus­tnal dr~pute the nBwspaperq spread it every­where m order to poison the minds of the people against them.

Those are the figures for Queensland. We :might well ask: why is it Queensland has :such a good record compared with New South \ValesW The newspapers would have us believe that unprovoked strikes and needless absentee-1\sm are the reason or the main factor that

produces the falling uff in production. The nBwspapers do not first tBll you that for four years during this war the miners began to increase production and it reached record levels, even in New South Wales. Why was it that in the l:tst 12 months these record figures were not maintained~ \Vhy was it that the men began to kick~ Not because the men in New South Wales are different from the men in QueBnsland or different from the men in Victoria, but because the coal indus­try is more closely . connected with the millionaires in New South Wales than in any other State. 'l'he coal industry in New South Wales is part and parcel of the s.hipping industry, part and parcel of Broken Hill Pro­prietary; in other words, it is linked with the big millionaire monopolies of this coun­try. 'rhese people are cruel, hard task­masters-let us make no mistake about it­cruel hard taskmastBrs. If we want to find why there were disputes in New South Wales, why it is we read from time to time that the mines are not working, let us, instead of reading the '' Couri:er-Mail,'' the ' ' Tele­graph,'' tlte ' ' Sydney Morning HBrald,' ' or the ''Sydney Bulletin,'' read thB miners official journal, ''Common Cause.'' Before we judge we should have the decency to hear the two sides. Not even the man accused of crime is allowed to go to trial before a judge and jury without someone to defend him; if he is too poor to pay for his own defence, the State provides him >vith poor prisoner's. council. But the millionaire Press mBrely spreads out the side of th0 owners against the miners and the miners have to depend on their own miners' jomnal and other 'vorki1Jg-clas.s newspapers and journals to put their case. \Nhereas millions read the news from the millionaire Press we find hundreds reading the case from the miners' point of

· ,·iew. 'l'he miners are just as patriotic. as the wealthy millionaires, whose patriotism exists mainly in their pockets and bank bal­ances; in fact, the miners are more patriotic. Many of the coal-miners in every State arc returned soldiers from the last war. Many of the miners have sons and daughters serving in the armed forces. Is it reasonable to snpposB that these men have suddenlv los-t their patriotism, their loyalty, their love for their country~ K ot on yonr lifB! But they are goaded into these actions by conditions that exist in the mi11es of New South Wales.

I will summarise the five main causes- of industrial trouble in disputes in New South ·wales, where the bulk of our coal is pro­duced. The first is that the owners have failed to provide proper safet:v measures for the miners.. Secondly, they have failed to provide healthy conditions for the miners. Thirdly, they have failed to pro­vide up-to-date equipment that would enable production to be geared up sufficiently to meet the increased demands of the war effort. Fourthly, the miners themselves· have a fear for the future-one hon. member dealt with that; I think it was the hon. member for Baroona-and remember the great depressiun of 1929 to 1932. Last, but not least, is the fact that in thB places where the miners live they have not been provided with social and

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 1315>

c1v1c amenities. Let me d.eal with those things in some d.etail.

The fi;st cause is that the mine-owners have failed to provide adequate safety measures. According to official :figures, t;he number of coal-miners injured in the year 1920 was 234. The figure jumped to 500 in 1937 and to 622 in 1938. These are pre-war years, since when the number of miners has increased. But these figures do not give a correct picture so far as percentages are con­cerned. The following are the figures per thousand:-

1920 1937 1938

Per 1,000 employees. 9.21

24.73 29.46

We find a corresponding increase in fatal accidents and these figures are equally dis­concerting. These :figures are for all Aus­tralia. For :five yeaTS, 1916 to 1920, the yea'rly average wa·s 25 killed or 1.14 per 1,000.

1927 to '31 1932 to '36 1937 to '41

No. Per 1,000 killed. employees.

22 .89 16 .84 27 1.2

In 1941 it Teached the TecoTd figure of 32 fatal accidents or 1.4 per 1,000 for N.S.W. only, where the greatest number of fatal accidents took place on the aveTage each year. In N.S.W. only there were 28 fatal accidents in the yeaT 1941, the highest for 30 years; and for 1944, foT the fiTst three quarters, the figures show that N.S.W. is likely to reach its 1941 record. Already, by the end of the third quarteT 23 coal-miners had been kill0d compared with 22 for the corresponding period of 1941. These :figures show that a coal-miner is certainly not work­ing in any industry or calling in which con­ditions are free from accident or absolutely safe.

For the benefit of hon. members I will read an extract from ''Common Cause'' of 28 October 1944, to show how one of these accidents takes place. This accident took place in Queensland but in fairness to Queens­land I say that the number of accidents here on the average is much less than in N.S.W.-

' 'Andy Bennett, Queensland district cor­respondent, advises that Michael Crane 0 'Donnell ( 39), a married man with one child, was suffocated in a fall at an old tunnel at Low:field No. 2, on Saturday, 7 October.

"It appears that 0 'Donnell and a deputy, Thomas Evans, were working in the old tunnel extracting timber for a new tunnel. They were the :first men who had worked there since the tunnel had been abandoned about a fortnight before, and were in about 40 yards.

''At about 10.15 a.m. 0 'Donnell com­menced extracting the timber, hammering a leg. It gave way and he was completely buried by the fall. Two sets of timber 11 feet· long and 6 feet 6 inches wide came

a>vay. Evans was also buried up to the. ann-pits, but managed to release himself and ran for help. After telling some children to go for assistance, he went back to the scene of the accident. Hearing a voice, he began to shovel and was able to· get 0 'Donnell 's head clear. He spoke to· him, and then another fall occurred, bury­ing him again completely, and almost bmy­ing Evans. The latter got free and ran to· where men were repairing a road on the suTface, a pony was procured, and a rescue· brigade sent for.

"The rescue men were 1 ~ miles away.

'' Evans then Teturned to the tunnel and:. tried to extricate 0 'Donnell. Subsequently, he was released, but artificial respiration. failed to revive him.

''The Queensland District President, Mr. T. Millar, said the circumstances of the accident served to direct attention to the­primitive conditions under which men were expected to risk their lives to get coal illi Queensland. In his opinion, the meru should never have been permitted to work in the conditions existing in the tunnel. "

That was in a mine in South Queensland. We :find the Royal Commission in 1938-39 dealt. with the need for greater safety measure& by mine-owners and urged that . vi~orous. action should be taken to reduce the mc1dence of fatal accidents. In spite of that we find. the record figures for 1941 and the :figures. for the :first three quarters of this year in N.S.W., which show that record is likely to be· surpassed.

The second cause of unrest is unhealthy conditions. I have not time enough to deal' with this in detail but I suggest that hon. members should carefully consideT the differ­ence between the life a miner lives and the· life of a worker in other sections of the com­munity. How should we like to have to earn. our living at the risk of being killed~ HoW' should we like to know that in the latter end, of our days we should undergo days and days of agony because we had contracted some dust disease of the lung~ That is what miners do. In addition they have to work under conditions of heat that no ordinary man would be able to work under. It is not: really heat in the sense that we say that the· temperature has risen to 100 or 110 degrees' but heat in which the moisture content in the air is proved to be excessive. That is what. we must consider when we are reviewing· miners' conditions.

I have dealt with production figures, and' must say in all fairness that the Queensland' miners have obtained those high figures not··· withstanding the fact that mine-owners have not equipped their mines in a way calculated' to produce all the coal required in this war .. I pay a tribute to the Secretary for Mineso in this respect. The president of the unioll' tells me that the Minister backs the miners in their demands for the installation of steel' rails to replace the wooden rails and fOT steel tables in place of the wooden tables that are so numerous in many of the mines in the West Moreton district. No blame can be

1316 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

:attached to the department in this connection with respect to the Collinsville mine, because the Minister has been in favour of the instal­lation of steel rails and the use of horses for wheeling. I understand that the only reason why horses have not been used up to the present is the difficulties experienced in get­ting the things necessary for doing so.

In the West Moreton district the miners ' union contends that if wooden rails and wooden tables were abolished the production <lf coal could be increased by at least 15 per .cent., and might even rise by 50 per cent. The union asked the owners in the West Moreton district to introduce production com­mittees but the owners refused. In most other industries the owners are willing to co-operate with the workers in increasing pro­.Uuetion, but not so the coal-owners in the West Moreton district.

I come now to the need for better social :and civic conditions and amenities for the miners. It has to be remembered that coal­mining towns are usually isolated centres of population. They are away from everything >Clse, and they are usually one-industry towns. As one miners' representative said to me at ·Collinsville last June, ''There is nothing here for the young men except beer or bets.'' A very hig;h ideal was implied in that state­ment. The miners' representative should be congratulated for placing it before me in the way he did, but that is the position. The time _has arrived when mining towns should be given much better civic amenities and facilities than they have been given in the past. It is high time, too, that the private· '()Wner was compelled to set aside some of the profits he is making in order to improve the social and civic facilities of these miners and their families.

I conclude by paying tribute to the Minister for visiting Collinsville to address the ~en there and getting them to agree to eertam pr_oposals submitted by the Govern­ment for mereased production.

Mr. Luckins: Did they not threaten him when he went up there~

Mr. P ATERSON: No. I am confident -that the Minister will be only too pleased to ·tell the ~on. member that they did not threaten him. The miners met him in a spirit •of eo-operation. The only thing I am sorrv for is that I was unable to attend but I wrote a statement for the Minister ~hieh he ·kindly read to the men for me and in which I supported the proposals of the Government for increased production. For some time in •Collinsvill~ there ~ad been some opposition to the mtroduetwn of a scraper-loader because the men feared for the future. When the positioJ?- was explained carefully to them, ·and when ~t was shown that the department and the umon could enter into an agreement that would ensure the protection of the miners' future in that respect the men in eCollinsville accepted the propo~al. Anyone who s_u!fgests that there was any threat to ·the _Mims~er o; that there was any suggestion •of Ill-fe~lmg Is depending merely upon lies :and bogies created by the enemies of the

working class. As a matter of fact, the conference that was held was very fruitful. As a result of it, the miners agreed to accept the proposals of the Government. They also set up their own committee to discipline any­one who was guilty of absenteeism without reasonable cause. Consequently, absenteeism has been reduced considerably. I am not suggesting that all the absenteeism that had taken place before was without reasonable cause, but where it could be shown that it was without reasonable cause the miners fined the men themselves, with the result that the position has improved.

(Time expired.)

Mr. TAYLOR (Maranoa) (3.3 p.m.): I join with other hon. members in paying tribute to the Minister in charge of this department and his officers, who are doing an excellent job in these difficult times. I am confident that they will continue to carry on in the future with the same efficiency that they displayed in the past.

I do not pretend to know much about mining. I have never worked in that industry.

However, I have a mine in my district, at Injune, that produces some of the best coal in Queensland. I have discussed its. quality with the men who have actually used it, and they tell me that it compares more than favourably with any other coal in the State. It is not a big seam, but the output of the mine, having regard to the number of men employed, is equal to that of any other mine of a similar kind. There are vast coal-bear· ing areas in the Maranoa electorate which, according to surveys, amount to 17,000 square miles, and from what I have read and what I have been told the seams are quite big enough to work on a payable basis. What is important, too, is that they are not located at any great depth, in some cases at only 50 feet, and in others a little more. I am given to understand by people who know something about the mining of coal that the coal there can be won at no· very great cost. I am satisfied that when the war is over the department will carry out its intention of considering the exploration of this very important coal-bearing country.

In his speech on these Estimates the hon. member for East Toowomba said the other day-I cannot say tha;t he made specific reference to Queensland-that the miners were getting into the coal-mining industry to avoid having to go to the war. That was a very unfair strutement so far as the miners in Queensland and particularly those at Injune are concerned, for on numerous o·cca­sions they have made representations to me personally and by letter asking me to negoti­ate with the man-power authorities to have them released from the coal-mining industry so that they might join the army.

I should like to endorse the statement by the hon. member for Aubigny that the coal­miners are not able to get spare parts and tyres for the motor vehicles they use in going to and from work. While I realise tha;t the position concerning the supply of rubber

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.) 8upply. 1317

material is very acute I think it should be po·ssible to help these men to some extent.

I propose to discuss later the prospec•ts for the development of the oil deposits in the Roma district.

Mr. LUCKINS (Maree) (3.8 p.m.): The matters controlled by the Department of Mines form very interesting subjects for discussion, but I am disappointed that the Government have not made proper provision for the future production of the mineral wealth of Queens­land. The Minister, I think, is quite capable of handling this depaJJtment, but I should have preferred the Government not to have foisted another portfolio on him.

At 3.9 p.m.,

Mr. DEVRIES (Grea-ory) relieved the Chairman in the chair.

Mr. LUCKINS: It is too much to expect the Minister to control two very important departments and give satisfaction to each. Queensland owes much in the last 50 years to its mining activities; it was its mineral resources that attracted many people to it. Now t)lat we have a settled community, mining, particularly from a Government point of view, is very disappointing. I know the ditficultieH that confront both the department and Minister because of war conditions but we must not forget that in the future it will be necessary for Queensland to examine her mineral wealt.h and get data to show where that wealth lies. It was very interesting to hear the hon. member for Logan tell of the activities of a great American copper­producing company that was successfully treating a large lode of low-grade copper, averaging about 1 per cent.

The Minister might be prepared to make a statement on the appointment of a geologist to report on the mineral wealth of southern, central and northern Queensland. It is too much to expect one man to examine and report on the mineral wealth of the whole of our State. The vast mineral wealth of this State only requires a thorough investigation to instil fresh life into the industry. Geologists could tell us where that wealth lies and the facilities required for its work­ing. 'We have the sad experience of mining lagging in Q:Ueensland, whereas it has improved in other parts of Australia. I cannot fathom the reason, as we ha'l'e the wealth beneath our soil, only waiting for it to be won.

Coal playb a prominent part in t)le State's development and it will continue to do so iu the future. Special consideration in the matter of coal supplies is given to the New South Wales section of the Kyogle railway. I hlieve that the men operating that section take the best coal only and refuse to take such coal as is usually delivered at the W oolloongabba yards.

Last session much was heard about bauxite or aluminium and I had thought that the Government through the Minister would have told this Committee what had been done in the search for bauxite. We know that aluminium plays a prominent part in the

building of airships; therefore, we should play our part in its production, particularly as we have deposits of bauxite in Queensland.

Another matter that caused some concern in this Parliament last year was shale­oil production. We heard much about the valuable deposits of shale oil we possess but I have yet to see any special reports prepared by the department for distribution r:mong hon. members. It is high time that we had specialists appointed to the depart­ment t.o give us some indication of what is being done and what is proposed to be done in this matter. The vote s)lould be increased to £140,000 to enable a complete survey of our mineral wealth of this State. So much is due to the importance of the industry.

M11ch has been heard in the past of the production of iron and steel, in fact, it was contemplated that Queensland should have her own iron and steel works but that possibility evidently has been lost sight of. \V e became enthusiastic over such matters but it is evident that the results are naught. I wonder whether when these Estimates are placed before the Committee we devote too much time to applauding the work of the department and forget about the question that really matters, namely, the development of the mining wealth of the State. It is only right that we should have something to say on these matters.

I notice there is a special sub-department handling weights and measures. I complained last year about the inspection of motor vehicles. I think everybody will agree that some of the busses that are running require special investigation; and I am glad to see that one new inspector has been put on as a vehicle inspector. I ride in the busses in the metropolitan area and I am sometimes afraid that the brakes are not as we desire them to be. One inspector is not sufficient to inspect the many thousands of motor vehicles about this city. People should be safeguarded against preventable accident.

I am glad to notice that 11 extra men have been put on in the department alto­gether. Next year I hope we shall have a good account of the mineral wealth of this State, showing where it can be worked, and worked under ideal conditions-not those that prevailed 20 or 30 years ago-so that it will attract men and enable Queensland to play a more important part in increasing the mineral wealth of the Commonwealth.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (3.18 p.m.): I was very interested in the contribution made by the hon. member for Logan. At least he came to the Committee with some information as to what was being done in mining in America and how profitably a company was working low-grade ore. I believe that the extract from the journal he read clearly indi­cates that the successful and economic work­ing of our low-grade ores necessitates greater mechanisation. It is truly impossible for us to economically and successfully work low­grade ores unless we do that. I believe that if it were possible for us to analyse more

1318 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

minutely the operations of the company men­tioned ·we should find that it was a very highly mechanised venture.

'l'he hon. member for Logan said thnt he found it difficult to understand why there should be a uniform price for coal irrespec­tive of quality. That is natural because in regard to most commodities the principle applies of the better the quality the higher the price, but in the matter of coal the price is determined by the cost of production. A high-quality or high-grade coal may cost less to produce than a poor coal in a seam that proves much more difficult to open up. For that reason it is considered more equitable to have a fiat rate for coal irrespective of quality. I think the hon. member for Logan will accept that as being a very sound reason, having regard to the peculiarities of the industry.

Usually high-grade coal is found in large seams that are easily worked. Poor coal is found in small seams that are difficult of access and therefore most costly to work.

· The hon. member for Logan made refer­ence to Mt. Garnet. I am pleased to say, ns Secretary for Mines, that the c-ompany at Mt. Garnet is doing excellent work. At the outset it met with many reverses and diffi­culties but I am pleased to say it overcame them. and today is producing a large quantity of tin very successfully and employing in the vicinity of 90 men. Of course tin is a very important metal at the present time, more so n-ow than perhaps at any other time in the history of the country. It is a strategic metal in great demand, and it is very pleas­ing to know that this company is meeting with the success that it enjoys at present.

The hon. member for Cook made reference to the Chillagoe-Etheridge district. In Feb­ruary m March of this year I had arranged for a geologist and a mines inspector to make a preliminary survey of that district, to check up, as it were, on the geological data already in the possession of the department. That survey was carried out, although n-ot perhaps to the ext·ent desired by the hon. member for Cook. It was a preliminary sur­vey that will prove of some value when at a later date a more extensive survey is made. It is not only necessary for the department to make a survey -of the Ohillagoe district but it is important that in the post-war years we should check very closely our mineral potentialities and our coal deposits.

To revert for a moment to coal, I might point out that in Queensland we are very fortunately placed. Within a dis-tance of approximately 30 miles of the capital city of Brisbane we have coal deposits. I do not know that any other capital city in Aus­tralia is so fortunately placed in having a coalfield so close, and when I took over the Department of Mines two years ago one uf the thing& that occurred to me was the question of the life of these collieries-how long c-ould we continue to enjoy this very advantageous state of affairs~ I gave instructions for drilling operations to be carried nut in the Wes.t Moreton district with a view to deter­mining the extent of the seams there and

of obtaining information and data on the life of the existing collieries.

Moving on from Brisbane we come north to the Maryborough district, in which we have excellent mines producing good coal. Moving on to Central Queensland we find Blair Athol field, which has no equal if properly developed. There are other small collieries in the same district. The Stvx mine is further north, near St. Lawrence. Travelling still northward, we come to the large State mine at Collinsvil!e, which has played such an important part in the supply of coal for the rail ways in the northern parts of the State, thus obviating the necessity of hauling it from collieries in the OentTa! District and other parts of Queensland. That mine provides a great tonnage of coal for shipping also, both naval and other vessels. Its· contribution to the war effort has been enormous. Because of its location it has baen of great value in that it has eliminated the necessity ·of hauling coal over long cLe· tances a task that would have proved extreU:ely difficult at a time when the cal?a~ity of our railways was strained to the lrm1t.

Further north there is a small mine at Mt. Mulligan, which has playad its part in supplying the railways of the 1\ ortl:. AH these collieries have been linked up. We now have a chain of collieries admirably situated throughout the . State and it. slwuld be our aim to maintam that serviCe as near as possible to a key point in each ar~a._ \~· e should endeavour to develop the colhenes m the Ipswich, West Moreton, and Rosewood districts. to maintain a supply of coal close to Brisbane. The future of Blair Athol is unlimited if properly developed. The~e ~re other coal deposits in :the Cantral D1stn et that will become established collieries in the future. Collinsville has many years. of li~e yet. Mt. ::\fulligan presents a problem ll1 many ways but I believe that a. proper sur­vey in post-war years should d1sclose other seams in that locality.

I assure the hon. member for Cook that I have not forgotten my promise to carry out a survey of the Ohillagoe field should I be Secretary for Mines when the war ends and facilities are more favourable than they are now. We have a great deal of data in con­nection with those fields already, and I can assure hon. members that the reason w?y the Government were compelled to close Oh1llagoe was lack of ore supplies. This in turn was attributable in no small meas.ure to the shortage of man-power ~nd th~ difficul~y experienced by those left m the mdustry m -obtaining machinery, trucks, tyres_, tub~s ~nd all the other things that serve m brmgmg the ore from the various fields to Chillagoe.

At 3.31 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN resumed the chair.

Mr. GAIR: In my position I could not allow Ohillagoe to go on losing many hun­dreds of pounds each week when most of the ore that was being treated came from the Oloncurry field and the Mt. Is.a Company's smelters could treat that ore. I gave an

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1319

undertaking at Chillagoe that pending a sur­vey of the Chillagoe field and an examina­tion of the whole position I would keep intact the Chillagoe smelters. I issued instruc­tions that the plant must remain intact so that it might be utilised if it was proved that the Chillagoe field could supply enough ore to justify re-opening those smelters. That plant may be serviceable, but in my opinion it is antiquated. Before the smelters can be successful I believe it will be neces­sary to erect new plant and it is questionable whether Chillagoe is the most suitable place for that. I think there are other parts. better situated to the establishment of a smelter to serve the miners on the Cairns and Chilla­goe districts.

lUr. Pie: Who built the works at Chillagoe~

Mr. GAIR: The works were built by the old Chillagoe company.

Mr. Kerr: What would be the use of h-clding on to the plant~

lUr. GAIR: It is being held there because the miners in the district think that when man-power is made available at the end ,,f the war greater quantities of ore than were :wail able at the time the smelters were closed will be forthcoming, and so the plant will again be o·f some service.

'l'he hon. member for Cook suggested that a picking belt shonld be installed at :\H. Mul­ligan, with the object of producing cleaner ~oal thBre. ·I can appreciate the importance of producing clean coal at Mt. :\Iulligan, as at all other collieries, because I realise the disadvantage it must be to engine men and those working for public utilities to have to handle dirty coal or coal containing foreign mabter. I am only too pleased to consider the installation of a picking belt at Mt. Mul­ligan, and indeed I have already explored the possibilities of obtaining one from Collinsville, but I was informed that the picking belt there is not intact, that it is only part of one. However, I want to assure the hou. member for Coo·k that I will do· everything I possibly can to procure one, and have it made avail­able to the tributers at Mt. :\Iulligan. How­ever, the point to be remembereil is that the installation of a picking belt woulfl mean that one man would have to be employe(! in clean­ing the coal from the belt, and as only a limited numl·er of n'en are employer] :1t :I\H. Mulligan, many of them on the surface and very few of them actually winning coal, if one is taken from coal production to attend the picking belt, the production must suffer to some extent, and so it is questionable whether the installation of the picking belt will give satisfaction. It may be argued that it is better to receive a smaller quantity of clean coal than continue to have the present supply, which may be dirty and thus give cause for complaint. The manager informed me in a report recently that he had had no com­plaints recently concerning dirty CO'al, and he was hopeful that the quality would improve.

The hon. member for Cook spoke about the need fo·r the decentralisation of industry, and I am in entire agreement with him. He

referred to the possibility of establishing cement works in North Queensland, and referred to the great lime deposits in the Chillagoe district. He thought that the Chilla­goe smelting plant might be used for the pro­duction of cement, but I should like to explain to him and other hon. members that although this matter has had my attention already, and has been investigated by certain authorities, and although there is no doubt abont the extent of the lime deposits at Chillagoe, more than lime is required or even more than lime and clay 'for the production of cement. One of the very important elements required is water, and in that respect Chillagoe presents a problem. If cement is going to be produced in North Queensland perhaps a more suitable place for its production than Chillagoe could be found. For instance, it might be better to take the lime from Chillagoe to Cairns or elsewhere and so produce the cement at a centre close to coal deposits, water, shipping and rail facilities. All these factors must be taken into account before we can finally decide to embark upon a new venture. How­ever, I agree with the hon. member for Cook that all these matters will have to be taken seriously into consideration in the post-war years, because it is uneconomic and unsound that we should haul cement or any other com­modity for that matter from Brisbane to Cairns and district or even to Townsville and district if they can be manufactured in the North.

JUr. Kerr: They are taking them from Sydi1ey to Cairns at a cheaper rate than we can from Brisbane to Cairns.

Mr. GAIR: Possibly. An·d they might be doing that even today. I cannot for the life of me see why, with extensive main-rdad works and when we have all the elements at our disposal, we cannot manufacture cement in North Queensland cheaper than it can be obtained from Brisbane because transport charges must be paid for in the ultimate. The suggestion is worthy of con­sideration but the fact t.hat there are unlimited lime deposits at one point does not constitute a reason why we should establish cement works at that point.

The hon. member for Maree dealt with bauxite. The principal consideration in the treatment of bauxite-and it is an essential CfmEiderat.ion-is cheap electric power. That is why bauxite is treated in Tasmania where the cheapest electric power in Australia is obtainable. All these projects have their difficulties. They must be very closely investigated before a Government can expend large sums of money on them. Investiga­tion must always precede such expenditure. If we examine these projects from aJl angles we are less likely to fall into error.

The hon. member for Maree spoke about shale oil also, as if this subject had been entirely forgotten by the Government and we had never investigated it. We have heard and still hear a great deal of talk about the unlimited supplies of shale in this State. It has been suggested by certair. syndicates and companies that we should have done this and we should have done that but

1320 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

before we can go inio that matter we must first determine our deposits of shale. Where are our shale deposits~ We have a very extensive low-grade shale deposit in the Gladstone district known as The Narrows. We have a very rieh oil-bearing shale in the Alpha district, the extent of which has not yet been determined. The Government carried uut drilling operations on the Alpha field for a couple of years. Only recently we removed the drill from there to Mary­borough to carry out very important and urgent wcrk on the coalfields.

Mr. Pie: Are the Alpha deposits worth going ahead with~

Mr. GAIR: Up to the present the Alpha deposits have not proved themselves, and until t;hey do how can we talk about the unlimited deposits of oil-bearing shale there~ These matters have to be determined. Who can do that better than the expert, the geologisU Yet we have small cliques of people, who hold leases on t.he Alpha field and did nothing themselves to determine whether the shale deposits could be worked profitably, expecting t;he Government to do everything and urging people to invest in valuable oil-shale prospects.

Mr. Pie: Have you taken over their leases~

Mr. GAIR: We have forfeited some of the leases because the conditions were not carried out, and others were ~llowed ,to lapse. In every case I have adopted a very liberal and very tolerant attitude. If I believed that a syndicate or company or individual holding a lease was endeavouring to do the best that could be done with it, I took into account the disabilities, such as lack of man-power and dearth of machinery, in deciding whether it should continue to be held. I can say that not one leaseholder on that field was harassed or embarrassed or harshly treated.

Let me go back to the question of cement. For the information of the hon. member for Cook I point out that the practicability of establishing a cement works in North Queens­land was raised in 1943, and a report was received from the State Mining Engineer on 17 June 1943 in which it was stated the investigation indicated the Chillagoe district was an unsuitable location mainly due to insufficient coal supplies, distance from market, and possible lack of suitable clay. However, in view of the desirability of a cement plant in N ort;h Queensland various other centres were considered and it was s·uggested Cairns weuld be a suitable place for such a plant.

This was submitted to the Co-ordinator­General of Public Works for expert opinion as to its possibility, and no doubt this pro­ject will be considered in post-war planning.

An hon. mer.1ber made reference to the Injune eoal depo~its. Queensland is very fortunate in its coal deposits and no doubt Injune, when man-power is available, will be developed considerably. Because of its

position it will supply the :milways and other users in that district and thus eliminate the necessity for hauling coal from the West Moreton and Rosewood districts.

As to the point raised by the hon. member for Oxley as to the price charged by the State mine at Collinsville, I point out that the present price was fixed on 2 November 1942. Prices for coal were pegged under the National Security Regulations in April 1943. Until this year the mine was showing a profit, and for that reason we had no case to submit to the Prices Commissioner for any increase. We could not anticipate the loss that would take place this year ; it was difficult to foresee that it would be as great as it turned out to be. As I said before, the loss is accounted for largely by the loss in production. If we had concentra­ted, as we did in the last few years, solely on production, there would have been no loss for the last year; but notwithstanding the urgency of the demand for coal-and it has not lessened very much-we were compelled to divert our attention to development and to the carrying out of work that was for the safety of the mine. So until now we have had no case for submission to the Prices Commissioner for an increase in the price to our customers.

Mr. Kerr: Have there not been increases in the price of coal in the Brisbane area 3ince 1943 ~

Mr. GAIR: That is possible. I cannot say whether there have been. It is possible that they had some difficulty in production here that raised their costs and for that reason they may have had a case for submission.

Mr. Brand: What is your objection to asking for an increase f

Mr. GAIR: We have no objection but, as I said, we were going along very well during the years from 1940 to this year; we were producing coal and showing a profit.

Mr. Brand: You would know from week to week.

Mr GAIR: That shows the limited know­ledge of the hon. member for Isis of the management of a coal-mine.

Mr. Brand: You would know your costs from week to week.

Mr. GAIR: That indicates very clearly the lack of knowledge of the hon. member, in the matter of the control of the largest coll{i.ery in Queensland, a colliery that is producing more than 25 per cent. of the total production of the State. Does it not occur to the hon. member that developmental work is difficult to estimate: that it may he carried out in three months or that for some unforeseen reason it might have to be extended~

Mr. Brand: All coal mines do develop­mental work.

Mr. GAIR: They would not have the same developmental work to carry out as

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1321

would have to be done in a colliery of this size.

lUr. Kerr: Extended over a period of years.

J\Ir. GAIR: I agree that that would be the proper procedure in normal times but I have stated not once but several times since these Estimates have been under considera­

tion, that all our efforts and those of evcTy available man weTe thrown into producing coal in 1941, 1942 and 1943 because every pound of coal was urgently required for war purposes. How could we carry out developmental work and at the same time use every available man-and we were unable to get additional men-to produce the coal that was required f

Mr. Decker: Who are the main -customers¥

Mr. GAIR: Railways and shipping-­

Mr. Luckins: Power stations.

Mr. GAIR: Power stations at Townsville, Mackay, the Mt. Isa mines, the power­alcohol distillery at Sarina, the Bowen coke works and electrical authority, the meatworks at Merinda and other places in North Queens­land.

Reference has been made to my visit to ·Collinsville. I should not have referred to it except that a suggestion was made that I received a hostile reception. I think the interjection was made rather humorously but it was accepted seriously. I should like to dispel any wrong impressions about the :matter. I visited Collinsville and Blair Athol for the specific purpose of addressing the members of the Queensland Colliery Employees' Union and appealing to them for a greater effort because of. the great demand that would be made on coal by the Railway Tiepartment and to endeavour to obviate the 'inevitable restrictions in railway services and ·other forms of rationing that would have to be applied if the supply of coal was not forthcoming and if there was any appreciable reduction in production. At both places I met committees of the union and we dis­·cussed many and various matters submitted to ;ne. Discussions were on a very friendly basrs and where possible their suggestions or requests that would help in increasing pro­duction had immediate consideration. I addressed the members of the unions publicly and placed before them the true position of the coal industry in this State and the demands that would still be made upon it. I pointed out to them the respon­·sibilities that rested on them. I pointed out to them the need for keeping the wheels of our railways moving, for keeping our ships travelling without u_nnecessary delay, as well as the great call bemg made for coal by our public utilities in such places as Townsville and Cairns where huge bodies of Allied troops were making tremendous demands upon elec­tric-light, gas, and other public utilities. I

Teeeived nothing but the greatest of courtesy from these men. They asked questions freely and I answered them to the best of my ability. 'There was not even the slightest 3emblance

of hostility. I believe that the majority of them recognised their responsibilities. I believe that the majority of them recog­nised the difficulty confronting this Government in obtaining the supplies of coal necessarv for public utilities and war activities. I say this to dispel any impression that hon. members may have about the interjection made by the hon. member for Maree, which was taken seriously by the hon. member for Bowen, about my having a hostile reception at Collinsville. Nothing is further from the fact. I can only think of the miners of Blair Athol and Collinsville with the greatest of admiration. The other night I made it clear that there could be no excuse for that section of them who failed to recognise their responsibilities but, speaking of the great majority of them, they have been a hard-working section of our community who are entitled to every appre­ciation and credit.

Mr. DA VIS (Barcoo) (3.59 p.m.): It is hardly necessary for me to join in the shower of compliments that has been rained upon the Minister and his wise administration of the department he controls. As usual, however, certain criticism has come from some hon. members opposite of those who are engaged in our mines. There is little doubt that the miner is employed in one of the most uncon­genial and dangerous industries in which man is forced to seek a living. Despite this the hon. ;member for East Toowoomba comes into this Chamber chattering like a flock of parrots in a tree and making all sorts of irresponsible statements about the integrity of the miners throughout Australia.

Mr. Yeates: Generally?

Mr. DAVIS: Yes.

Mr. Yeates: You are wrong. I will deal with you later.

Mr. DA VIS: Ample proof can be found of the statements made by hon. members here that the profits taken from the mines have been won by the sweat, blood and tears of those working in the industry. Mention has been made of the great mining section of New South Wales and the methods of t1l.e Brown interests of that State. The number of fatalities that have occurred has been disclosed. I can assure the hon. member for East Toowoomba that if he were compelled to sell his labour to the Brown interests in the New South Wales mines or even in a Queensland mine, he would be more moderate in his statements.

I know little about mining, either metal­liferous or coal, but I am observant enough to realise the possibilities of the Blair Athol mine in my electorate. Under private enter­prise this seam has remained completely unde­veloped. If it had been developed to the extent that some of our State enterprises have been, we in Queensland should not have been in the position today of ever fearing a shortage of coal for our industries.

There are many possibilities for the development of Blair Athol in post-war years. It may be said by some ~at laek or water

1322 Supply. [ASSFMBLY.l Supply.

would be a stumbling block to the future development of that part of the State.

Within 60 miles of the Blair Athol field there is an unlimited supply of water in the Connors River and the possibilities of piping it to Blair Athol should receive due consider a­lion in the post-war years.

On the subject of the possibilities of utili­sing water s~pplied from great distances. I should like to quote the Whyalla scheme m South Australia. Here the water is piped from the Murray River to Whyalla, a distance of 223 miles. Speaking at the opening cere­mony, Sir Malcolm Barclay-Harvey, Governor of South Australia, who officially set the pumps in motion, said-

'' This simple act is at once an ending and a beginning-the ending of construc­tion of this mighty work, great by any standard of comparison, and the beginning of a new era of great and growing pros­perity to the districts which it serves-an em of which we can see this day the beginning, but of which no man can see the end.''

Surely 11·ith the prospects that exist for the development of certain industries within the Blair Athol area the mere fact that we shall be compelled to obtain our supply of water from a distance of 60 miles should not be considered a great stumbling block in the future.

There is again the possibility-I believe the Government have taken it into consideration -the construction of a railway from Blair Athol to either Mackay or Broad Sound. Should this become an accomplished fact it will open up great areas of agricultural land that in the post-war years could be used for the settlement of the members of the fight­ing services. Again, if the Government in their wisdom decide to convey water from the Connors River to Blair Athol that will bring into operation a water service for the towns of Blair Athol and Clermont, each of which has no such service at the moment. Just imagine a town the size of Clermont, with 2,000 inhabitants., having no water service at the present time! Blair Athol is the greatest cattle-trucking centre in Queens­laud-more cattle are trucked at Blair Athol than at any other trucking centre in the State-and if we could convev the water from the Connors River it would" open up the possibility of establishing a slaughtering svstem at this centre. And why not~ \'Vhy s'hould the graziers be compelled to convey the cattle from their properties or from t.he trucking centre at Blair Athol to the abattons at Brishane to be slaughtered~ That is not right. At Blair Athol we have an almost unlimited supply of coal, which geologists estimate-their estimate is always a conser­vative one-to be somewhere in the vicinity of 300 000 000 tons of God-given stored energy in an' op~n cut with a 70 feet face and in places up to 90 feet. There is enough coal there to supply the requirements of industry in a developed State for perhaps 150 to 200 years. 'iVhy not esta~lish manufacturing mi:ls there right in the m1dst of the pastoral dls­trict ~ Why convey the wool to Brisbane for appraisal or to be scoured and sent overseas~

Why not scour it where it is produced~ The possibilities are there and they should be con­sidered bv the Government as part of the programn:e for post-war years.

Again, if the water is con.veyed to J;ll~ir Athol from the Connors R1ver electnc1ty ,chemes could be developed and energy reticu­rated throughout the North-West, West and Central-West. The possibility of cheap elec­tricity is present there. If we had water, as a matter of course other schemes must come into existence.

I am not going to weary the Committee but I repeat that no Government can afford to overlook the God-given stored-up energy at lllair Athol, and the possibilities of develop­ment there particularly as it relates to the future de~elopment o~ this . State in the establishment of heavy mdustnes. We must rralise, too, that for the benefit, welfar~ and mfety of the nation, many of our heavy :tndus­tries must be removed from the coast and established in more secure positions in the hinterland.

Vote (Department of Mines-Chief Office) agreed to.

IN AID OF MINING.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (4.10 p.m.): I move-

'' That £500 be granted for 'In Aid of Mining.' ''

Provision is made in this vote for assistance to be granted in repairing roads to mi.ning centres and the conveyance of ore from Inac­cessible centres to central treatment works. It also makes provision for water supplies to mines and mining communities.

]}fr. FARRELL (Maryborough) (4.11 p.m.): The help given by t~~ Gov:ernment ~o the development of the m~mng m~ustry. JS

such as to warrant immediate cons1derahon by this Committee. From time to time in my district-I dare say it applies throughout the length and breadth of our State-:-we have availed ourselves of the expert adviCe 9f the Chief Inspector of Mines on problems apper­tail1ing to mining and .mines gen.er.ally. As the Minister stated, a diamond dnllmg plant was removed from the Alpha district to the Maryborough district to carry out tests there.' During that period, because of the natnre of the country we ran into a considerable amount of trouble 'in developing one of our mines. It was due to the expert advice and the tests made by diamond drilling that we were very largely able to overcome !t. Whe.re you r~n into faulty country, partJcularly m our dls­trict it is hard to sav just whether there has been' a jump-up or a jump-down in the coal levels. The only way it can be proved is by diamond or some other form of drilling that will indicate exactly where the seam has gone to. It is on that aspect of the development of mining fields that I desire to say a little on this vote.

We have from time to time given valuable assistance to the mining industry in various localities. During the period when the late Hon. J. Stopford was Secretary for Mines and

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1323

member for Maryborough, he gave us con­siderable help by having a diamond drill allotted to the Maryborough field, so that extensive boring operations could be carried out to prove its wealth, both as to the nature of the coal seams and otherwise, so that we should be able to form some conclusion as to what the life of the field would be and to "·hat extent development might take plac,. When we were testing that field a very uncom­mon feature was discovered. Most coal measures on this field contain what are termed rise seams, that is, the coal is exceptionally 6 Jod at the strike but very often it peters out as it dips. In fact, very often the seams pinch out to such an extent that they become unworkable. The diamond drill proved the opposite. It revealed that nothing was pay­able in that seam until it reached a depth of 150 feet. After extensive boring operations we found that as the seam extended in the dip so it increased in thickness and was therefore an exception to the rule. I say exception to the rule because our seams are usually living -on the surface and dying towards the dip, '''hereas this seam was dying on the surface and increased in width as it extended to the dip. We should have further extensive boring in that locality in order to prove the con­tention that the seams are payable so that something might be done for their develop­ment.

You can readily understand, Mr. Mann, that if we decide to develop that seam we must put down a shaft to the extent of at least 500 ft.; anything shorter would be­worse than useless. If the field is as exten­sive as the core would lead us to believe, we have an immense field of coal waiting to 'be worked, and where modern appliances can be put in. Over a number of years we have developed our seams but the life of the mine has been limited because the seams do not live to the dip. If it is proved that the seam is going to be of extraordinary value both by it.s thickness and extent of it and the calibre of the coal I think some assistance could be given to the firms that are willing to develop it. I think we could give a measure of help equal to the measure of help given to other industries. All this coal is on Crown ·property.

Since the Minist-er has taken over this portfolio he has been most generous in the amount of assistance rendered, as a result -of representations I made on behalf of the ·district. He spoke about making available a diamond drill. Anybody who knows any­thing about diamond drilling knows t-hat :ve ·have not been able to get the latest device possible so that extensive boring operat~ons might take place throughout ~he variOus localities where the department Wishes to put down bores. After the war is over, however, the department will be able to continue t~e work carried out in pre-war years when 1t rendered valuable aid in testing various fields. 'The Minister is at all times willing to help the industry. A practical illustration of ~is policy is the fact that he gave to the Ipswich and West Moreton area a diamond -drilling plant. If it proved successful it was expected 'that the mineowners would contribute t-owards ·the cost of the drill, and if it happened to

be a dud bore the Government would fiucl the money to pay for that work, which repre­sents an excellent contribution to the develop­ment of the industry by the department. I think something on that basis could be generally accepted as the principle under which assistance could be rendered from time to time in the various fields, whether by drilling for coal or sinking a deep shaft such as the one that would have to be sunk for the development of the seam I have spoken of. Before that could be attempted it would be necessary for the Government to gain a more extensive knowledge of the area of that field. It may or may not extend east or west, as the case may be. I think it should be very extensively tested so that that seam could be effectively tried out. It is too big an undertaking for any company to sink a shaft on the present boring. I believe the Chief Inspector of Mines would probably agree with me that it is essential in the interests of the district that more extensive boring should be carried out. They did not bore to the east or west of the bores that were put down largely because it was only in the last bore that we got this seam and it was necessary to have some decision as to whether it was not necessary to chop out the bore. At that time it was taken to the dip.

I commend this suggestion to the Minister so that help may be rendered in the develop­ment of that field. I believe that more extensive boring operations should be done in other localities also. Take the areas in which we are working collieries at the present time. The Minister has informed the Committee of the disabilities we have suffered in the mining industry because we have endeavoured at all times to put every available ounce of coal on the market in the interests of a con·· cm·ted war effort and unfortunately we have had to drop much of our developmental work. We could not afford to break off production to employ the men on devcelopment. More­over, men of outstanding experience are required for developmental work. Experts are needed to test a field. One cannot expect to get results by putting any man in charge of a diamond drill. During the period through which we are passing it is almost imnossible to obtain such men but I am sure,- from my knowlenge of the Minister, that he will do everything possible not only to make a success of the job all?t~ed to him but to develop our coal-mmmg industry by giving practical aid to the areas that require it.

Last week-end I was in a section of my electorate and one of the matters I discussed there was measures for the development of the field. If we are to get every ounce of coal it is possible to produce it is necessary for us to pay heed to suggestions made to us. At the same time, no matter how greatly we desire to develop a field, if we do not have peace and contentment ~n the cOJ;nmunity it will be useless. On previOus oecas1ons I hRYe endeavoured to show the extent to which thi!l Government have gone to have peace and contentment in the industry. This is of vital importance.

1324 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

The CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope the hon. member will connect his 1·emarks with the vote before the Committee.

ltlr. F ARRELL: Everything possible has been done and every help hns been given towards developing our industry and I am sure this Government will in the future give the help that is vital if we are to rejuvenate the mining industry. In the years to come it will be necessary to pick up the threads of development that have been dropped in the war period and I appeal to the Minister to give ample consideration to requests that may come to him from time to time, especially from my area, so that its development will receive the assistance that this Government can offer.

Vote (In Aid of Mining) agreed to.

MINING FIELDS.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (4.24 p.m.): I move-

'' That £41,924 be granted for 'Mining Fields.' ''

The increase in this vote is to be found mainly in the salary section. The sum of £3,879 more than last year is required. The number of officers provided for has increased from 72 to 77 in anticipation of the possible return to duty of some officers at present on war service. The contingencies include the payment of gratuities of cash equivalent of extended leave to relatives of officers who have died-Mr. J. W. Lee, warden at Charters 'rowers and Mr. M. Dwyer, warden at Gladstone -claims due on the probable retirement to another officer, amounting in all to £1,320.

In submitting this motion I take the oppor­tunity of expressing sympathy to the rela­tives of the late Mr. J. W. Lee and Mr. M. Dwyer. Both gentlemen gave many years of excellent public service to the State. It was not my privilege to know Mr. Lee beyond meeting him on one occasion, but it was my pleasure to know Mr. Dwyer for a number of years. It is a great pity that a man of his merit and worth should have been taken prematurely. I should like to place on record the appreciation of the Department of Mines of the excellent service rendered by these gentlemen and our sympathy with their bereaved relatives.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Vote agreed to.

STATE MINING OPERATIONS.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Secretary for Mines ( 4.26 p.m.):

''That £650 be granted Mining Operations.' " Vote agreed to.

Brisbane­I move-for 'State

QUEENSLAND GOVERNMENT MIKING JOURNAL.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary fo·r Mines) (4.26 p.m.): I move-

'' That £1,592 be granted for 'Queens­land Government Mining Journal.' ''

For the benefit of hon. members, I would point out that the printing of this journal costs

£968 13s. Od. There is an allowance of £45 to the acting editor, who is one of the senior clerks of the Department of Mines. He has an assistant who is on a salary of £332. The amount required for contingencies is £1,260.

Vote agreed to.

INSPECTION OF MACHINERY, SCAFFOLDING, AND WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (4.29 p.m.): I move-

" That £53,113 be granted for 'Inspection of Machinery, Scaffolding, and Weights and Measures.' ''

The increase in the vote this year is accounted for by £8,825 in salaries, £2,500 for travelling expenses, etc., £500 for expenses in the weights and measures section, and £2,000 for the Government garage, ma.King a total of £13,825. Provision has been made for a full staff of inspectors on the assumption that most. of them may resume duty during the year, when additional appointments will be made. Several have resumed duty already after special service with other Commonwealth or State departments in activities directly con­nected with the war effort. The resumption of inspectorial work in certain country districts as well as in the metropolitan area necessitates heavier travelling expenses. Provision is made for the purchase of new cars, if they can be obtained, to replace units that have outlived their usefulness. Extra equipment will be required for the more efficient testing of ma0hinery and provision is made this year to enable orders to be placed. In the case of the Government garage, up-to-date equipment is needed to handle efficiently the increase in the volume of repair work. The purchase of petrol, oils and spare parts depends upon the calls made upon stocks by departments gener­ally, and the increase asked for covers this expense.

The bulk of the increase refers to provision for the return of inspectors who are employed today by the Commonwealth authorities on war work. They may return to the Depart­ment of Machinery, Scaffolding and Weights and Measures at any time.

When speaking on the Chief Office vote this afternoon, the hon. member for Maree referred to the inspection of vehicles. Motor vehieles used for trade or busine~s, can,ving goods or passengers, are subject to inspection by the department. At the present time only one inspector is available for this work. 'l'his i& due to the staff's having been depleted by the call made upon these experts by the Navy and other branches of the Commonwealth ser­vices closely connected with the war effort. Only those vehicles carrying passengers, and a limited number of those carrying goods are being inspected. As inspectors return to the service of the department from the Common­wealth the number of inspections will be increased until all are back to normal.

In normal times inspections are made every six months in Brisbane, and such principal towns as Toowoomba, Ipswich, Rockhampton and Townsville, and every 12 months in the less thickly populated areas. I agree with the

Supply. [7 NovRMBER.l Supply. 1325

hon. member for Maree that we cannot be too careful in the inspection of motor vehicles, those used for the conveyance of passengers in particular.

I can assure hon. members that when the staff return to normal and the full comple­ment of inspectors is available the inspec­tions will be carried out on a six-monthly basis as in the past. However, evary p·e­caution is being taken at present to see that busses in particular are maintained in a safe condition, and if that is done then for tho time being accidents will be prevented, especially where the busses are concerned.

lUr. LUCKINS (Maree) (4.34 p.m.): I should like to know from the Minister whether the cost incurred in the s2nicin-:; and repairs of the various official cars is debited to the department concernetl, or i.o the whole cost borne by his department~

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) ( 4.35 p.m.) : The Government garage gives a service to vehicles of all Government departments.

}lr. Hiley: Including the drivers?

Mr. GAIR: In my own department, the inspectors have their official cars, and if it is found necessary in the course of work to take one out of commission for repair it is taken to the Government garage.

Mr. Hiley: What about the drivers of ministarial cars~

Mr. GAIR: They are employed by the respective Ministers or the respective depart­ments. The salary of my chauffeur is divide'! between the Department -of Mines and the Department of Labour and Employment. All repairs carried out by the Government garage on Government cars are debited to the depart­ment from which the cars come.

Mr. KERR (Oxley) (4.36 p.m.): I do not know that the Minister has made the posi­tion quite clear yet.

~Ir. Gair: I should say that to the normal person, yes.

Mr. KERR: That is a matter of opinion. Ha has not made it clear whether the amount of £10,000 set down for ''Government Motor Garage'' is. borne entirely by his department, or whether it is apportioned over the depart­ments concerned.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (4.37 p.m.): I clearly said that each department is debited with the cost of servicing and repairing its cars. You could not have anything clearer than that.

l\Ir. Kerr: Each department?

!lr. GAIR: Yes.

Mr. l'ARRELL (Maryborough) ( 4.38 p.m.) : I desire to pay a compliment to the Chief Inspector of Machinery and his staff for their s.plendid services in maintaining the safety of tl1e machines used in rroduction

regardless of where they are sil ua tccl. The inspector in the department is of such a high calibre and his qualifications are so out­standing that he is able to act as liaison officer between the department and the men employed on the various jobs, thereby develop­ing a feeling of confidence in the safety of the plant that is operated. I kno''" from my long experience in the coal-mining indus­try that thes.e men were very helpful in sae­ing that the mining machinery was main­tained in a high standard of efficiency. They did a magnificent job in that raspect, in addition to carrying out their usual duties. Because of the war, many additional duties have been imposed upon them. So far as I was able to judge, they have never at any time permitted any slipshod methods to be used where the ·efficiency of machinery and the safety of employees was involved. They have always insis.ted that boilers and ancillary equipment be maintained in first­class condition, and thus they have been responsible h1 a large measure for reducing the margin of accident in industry very con­s.iderably. I compliment the Chief Inspec­tor and his staff on the excellent job they are continuing to do.

Vote (Inspection of Machinery, Scaffold­ing, and Weights and Measures) agreed to.

COAL A"D OIL SHALE MINE WORKERS (PENSIONS) ACTS.

Hon. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secretary for Mines) (4.39 p.m.): I move-

'' That £16 181 be granted for 'The Coal and Oil Shale Mine Workers (Pensions) Acts, 1941 to 1943.' ''

The Government's contribution to this fund is £15,000. The cost of salaries is refunded to the Treasury by the Pensions Tribunl!l.

Mr. F ARRELL (Maryborough) ( 4.40 p.m.): During this war some outstanding legislation has been passed by this Govern­ment and nothing has been more important than the legislation to provide pensions for workers associated in the coal-mining industry of this State. The success of that scheme is in a large measure due to the administration of the Act by the tribunal, which is composed of a chairman, the Hon. D. A. Gledson, u representative of the Colliery Employees' Union, and a representative of the colliery owners. It has done much to maintain and develop a position that will be of incalcul­able value to the men associated with the industry. Whenever I have addressed union meetings I have impressed on those present that the pension is theirs, and that they must maintain and develop the fund in the interests of the men in the industry. A large measure of the success of the scheme is due to the fact that we have very capable administrators. Both the registrar and his staff carry out in detail the instructions of the tribunal.

It has been said on many occasions that the principle of this tribunal should be extended to other sections of the miDing industry. So

1326 Supply. [ASSE~IBL Y.]

far as I can see, there is nothing t_o stop that from being done. We have m our industry a pension scheme that we fought for .and there is nothing to stop the other sections of the mining industry from fighting for a similar scheme, as we did. During the period this scheme has been in operation it has been -of immense value to the men in the industry. It has been suggested in conversation with various secretaries that over a period of years the fund has been so healthy that we could reduce the premiums. I say no and definitely no. We should not attempt to interfere with the basic principle of the fund and should continue to contribute to it on the basis miginally laid down. We are passing through :a period when the men in the industry are working more days than ever they will work :after the war is over and therefore are in a position to contribute more than they will be in the post-war period. I say to those who :advocate a reduction in contributions that they are on the wrong leg and that they ,ghould do nothing that might tend to injure the fund, rather should they maintain it on its present standard so that the benefits of the scheme may not only be enjoyed in the present but carried on for the future. It is such a scheme that no member of the Colliery Employees' Union can afford to think of other than as something that was fought for and attained after years of agitation and )herefore should be cherished at all times so that its benefits can be passed on to those .vho afterwards will be associated with the industry.

I pay tribute to the people responsible for the administrative side of the scheme. It has done much to bring about peace and content­ment in the industry. I know it has done much to bring peace and contentment to the minds of the men in the industry, particularly those who in their declining years are benefiting under it. I feel that now it is established we should do nothing that might tend to destroy it, rather should our aim be to maintain it at its present high level so that those who follow us will also enjoy its provisions.

I pay tribute too to the Minister, who at :all times has done everything possible to maintain the scheme at its high standard so that it will not break down. He has from time to time handled in a businesslike and able manner requests that would have frittered away the advantages of the scheme.

lUr. NICKLIN (Murrumba-Leader of the Opposition) ( 4.4-.5 p.m.): I should like to ask the ::\Iinistcr a question in eonnection with th8 coal miners' pension scheme. As he is no douot aware, the Commonwealth Government are considering a 1niners' pension scheme, and realising the benefit om legislation has given to the miners in this State, I should Eke to· know what >VOuld be the rosition shodd the Commonwealth enter the field. ·would their scheme oYerlap our scheme'' ·would our scheme go out and would our miners be better or worse off under a Commonwealth scheme than under the State scheme~

Hnn. V. C. GAIR (South Brisbane­Secrdary for ::'.lines) ( 4.46 p.m.): In reply

to the Leader of the Opposition I point out that it is very difficult for me at this stage to say what the position would be, because I am not ]JOSSCSBed of the c1etails of the Com­monwealth scheme. I should say that if the Commonwealth established the scheme for miners' pensions it would embrace the miners throughout Australia. If it were a more gen­erous scheme than that operating in this State, under which the miners contribute, I think the miners >vould be content to forfeit their claim on this fund. There would be no need for two funds. If the Commonwealth scheme was more liberal tu the miner than the (tueens­land one ours would have to be abolished.

Vote (Coal and Oil Shale Mine Workers (Pensions) Acts) agreed to.

DEPAR'l'liiENT OF PUBLIC INS'rRUCTIOK.

CHIEF OFFIOE.

Hon. J. LARCOMBE (Rockhampton­Secretary for Public Instruction) ( 4.48 p.m.) : I move-

'' That £42,353 be granted for 'Depart-ment of Public Instruction-Chief Office.' ''

'l'he increase in the appropriation asked for as compared with the expenditure of the last financial year is £5,761, due chiefly to salary increases under the award and the inclusion of the salary of the Deputy Director-General in this vote, whereas formerly it came under the vote for ''Inspection.'' There is nothing remarkable in the difference between the appropriation asked for this year and that of last year.

I should like to say that the total appro­priation asked for the current financial year is £2,053,200, showing an increase on the expenditure for J 943-44 of £220,763. The chief reasons for the increase in the proposed expenditure for the current financial year are: increase in salaries in accordance IYith the awards including classification increases ,granted by awards, physical education in schools, physical fitness campaign in conjunc­tion with the Federal Government, musical education in schools including the string quartet, and the teaching of singing, increased allowance for cleaning schools, ground improYements subsidy, and subsidy for libraries for schools to enable pupils to read in their homes. The department provides 96,000 books to enable school children to read in schools.

llir. Plunkett: Are they charged for the books?

lUr. LARCO~IBE: No. Other items of expenditure for which approval will be sought for the year 1944-45 include additional endowment to the University for the year J 944-45, £5,000. The University received a special subsidy 1ast financial year and thr previous financial year of £5,000 in each, anu this financial year it is proposed to extend that special subsidy, making the total subsidy in 1944-45 £45,000. In addition to tha't the scholarship allowances have been increased substantially, and also the allowances to trainees at the Teachers' Training College. The last-mentioned items a·re not included in

Suppty. [7 N"OVEMllER.] Supply. 1327

the present Estimates; they will be pro~·ided f"or under the head of unforeseen expend1tm·e.

~ir. IUACDONALD (Stanley) (4.50 p.m.) :_ There is an old axiom to the effeet thtll ''knowledge is power.'' Today that axiom is as true as it is ancient. In these twen~ 1eth centurv times when knowledge runs to and fro arid is i1{creased and when every intcl· ligent man is the heir of all the a_ges in that the knowledo·e actumulated by sclentlfit· and practical me1~ in every age in every part of the world is readily obtainable from books, che great Yalue of education must be apparent.

That this has been recognised is apparent because on all sides is hea,.d the voice of public opinion on our educational m~tho~s in Queensland. In truth, the educat10~1 1s one of the most alive issues of our tunes and even the most visionary of post-war planners can reasonably expe~t to see great strides in the field of edncatwn. Torlay at the bar of world opinion education is on trial and here in Queensland the GO\·ern­ment are judge and jury. In their hands for good or evil rests the future of Queens· land's greatest asset, our youth. It is idle to speak of the spending of so much more per capita on education than any other State. Figures like that leave n~e stone .cold. ~he amount matters not. It 1s the w1sdom w1th which that money is expended that counts. By no manner of mea~s ;voultl I attempt to pose as ar: educatw_rust-I .h~ve had sufficient education to avmd com1mttmg that folly-but I have certain deeply-rooted idea's on the subject and purpose placi1w them before the Committee in order that they in turn maY eYaluatc them.

Let 1;e confess, and confess quite frankly, that in the years that haYe gone I have been somewhat disgusted by the level of the debate when this vote has been under discussion. We have had hon. members rise in this Chamber and their contributions to the debate, in fact the guts of their speech has consisted . of thanks to the Director-General of Educatwn and his officers for some trivial service the department may have rendered to their electorates. To me and perhaps to other members who listened attentively it would appear that such members. were tr:y:ing to make their marble good w1th the DHector­General, if you will pardon the us~ of a colloquialism. ·were I the DHector­General I should as I am sure Mr. Edwards does, feel deeply affronted. Surely it is not too much to expect that members of this Committee should endeavour to bring under the notice of the Director-General and the Minister suggestions or opinions that might be deem~d to be of value or of use not only to theH own elec· to rates but to the people generally! I am certain that JI!Ir. Edwards a11d his officers in their turn would give due consideration to such suggestions as merited consideration. Now not for one moment do I purpose thank· ing Mr. Edwards and his staff for what they have done in my area-to do so wo~ld be a gratuitous insult-but I . should h~e to compliment them on the effic1en~ ~ay m which their department has been adm1mstered. When one remembers that within the confines

of Stanley there are approximately 80 sc;hools I think I can claim with justice to have had some thorough experience.

On the subject of education much rubbish has been spoken, and that too by people holding responsible public positions, but who nevertheless are careless thinkers. I cannot think of a more glaring instance than that which happens annually in the case of a head teacher in the electorate of the hon. member for West Moreton when annually at the prize distribution he rants and raves against the classics as a dead language and deplores the use of them in Queensland.

Coming from a schoolmaster, that is doubly unfortunate. I can only conclude, no matter how reluctantly, that this poor chap has been denied the pleasure and benefit of a know­ledge of Greek and Latin. I am certain that had he followed the classics., and particularly hall he read the Satires of Horace, he would not have betrayed his folly.

Naturally, my opinions of education are based to a great extant on exnerience I gained in the land of my birth and to a lesser extent from observations in this country. As a preface, permit me to say, and to say with all the poYYer that in me lies, that the conception that education is ''to make a livinO''' rather than "to further a life" is utte;ly wrong. L2t me illustrate my point. I well remember in the long ago hearing an olcl "·oman say to her grandson, ''How can you expect the Lord to prosper you if you will whistle on the Sabbath day?'' 'l'o her-and she shoultl ha Ye known better; she was an old woman in the eventide of life-religion was hut a means to an end, an unworthy end. And so it )q ~Yith certain people. Thev regard education as a means to an end. They look upon education as a means to the aecumula­tion of wealth. Unfortunately our system in Queensland tends more to vocational training than to actual character-building.

Exactly what does ''education'' mean f Personally I think it a happy word. It eome~ from the Latin word '' educare,'' meaning ''to nourish.'' We must all bear it in mind that man does not live bv bread alone. Education as I know it affords the fullest enjoyment of life. Tt elotl12s mpn and women with the capacity to select the intellectual aYenues of life that will give them the greatest measure of joy and happiness, to discriminate between right and wrong, between wisdom and follv. It teaches thc1u to eoneentrate on those things that make for a happy life. a full life, and to avoid those that make for miserv and failmc. This education develops ·self-discipline without which there can be no permanent happiness. Education is the very foundation of happi· ness, both in the individual and the nation. Bv '' edueation '' I do not m eRn for one m'oment a profound knowledge of some tech· nical subject, but rather the capacity to select, to determine, to discriminate, the capacity to think clearly on matters of moment and on the problems of life.

How best can we achieve thi' stnnrlarrl of education? Napoleon once asked a lady of his court, ''How best can I promote the

11.328 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

welfare of the people?" Incredible as it may appear to some, the answer \Yas, '' Edu­·cate the mothers of the French people.'' No sounder advise has ever been given. The future of this country depends upon the ·capacity of our youth to think clearly, upon the ability 'Of the young mothers to rear and educate their children wisely. The ·Capacity to read with understanding is the best buckler with which man can be armed to ward off the ills and follies of this world. 'Teach our boys and girls to read closely and with understanding, introduce them to the great books and all will be well with this -world.

In this, my conception ·of education, I am greatly fortified by reading an extract fro~ the 671th report of the Secretary for Pubhe Instruction, who says on page 11-

":Elducation is a term which covers not only what is done inside the walls of a classroom but includes the whole process by which men and women are guided ~o develop the capacity to think1 to dis­criminate between good and evil, and to co-operate with one another for the com­mon good.

' ' The years of childhood and youth o:e;er the best opportunity in life for that gmd­ance and any educational plan must be based largely on what can be done during the school period. That is why I look to the development of the library, the film, and the radio within the school as a sound basis for their further and later develop­ment."

With that I am in full agreement and I sub­scribe to it 100 per cent. Accepting those expressions as being the desideratum, our ideal, are we doing our best to consum­mate it~

Let us examine the set-up of education in Queensland today. It concerns in the main first the primary schools and then the ·secondary schools. The primary schools are subdivided into two headings-ordinary State schools and correspondence classes. At its best there is no better system of .education in the British Empire than that existing in the State schools of Queensland today. Excellent though it is, there are many shortcomings and the principal of these is the source of instruction. I mean the general run of teachers in the one-teacher schools. ·Generally the teachers in the one-teacher schools are young girls fresh from the Train­ing College, girls who are badly in need of instruction and supervision, yet are put in .charge of country centres. It is futile to say that this is due to the stress of war. These .conditions prevailed long prior to that. Take for instance what happens at a one-teacher .country school that has an attendance of perhaps only nine. This young girl-usually it is a female teacher-has perhaps five or six classes to teach. Is it to be expected that under such conditions these children will derive the best possible advantage from their time spent at school~ I am only generalising and I admit that in some isolated instances you may strike an outstanding teacher, but I hazard the opinion that much of the time

spent at school by these children will be utterly wasted particularly where the older children are boys.

Not only is it bad for the children but it is grossly bad for the young teacher. In many districts the teacher has to find lodgings and she finds them in not very congenial company, in addition, she may have to go 2 or 3 miles to school. The result is that her life is far from happy with consequent deterioration in her work. If the Government are going to persist in the one-teacher schools why not send up an experienced teacher from the city to those schools and bring the young girls to the city where they will be under supervision and so complete their training? You cannot say that that would entail any more expense; the cost would be identical. It is no good condemning a system unless one is prepared with an alternative. I suggest that despite the fact that in these days we hear much of decentralisation a central school is the only solution of the problem. With a competent staff under a suitable head much progress can be made. I am not divorcing from my mind the belief that-I say this very reluctantly­in some instances the children do not get a fair spin. The teacher plays them for the inspector. The teacher is out to get a good report and a child who is just a little back­ward but should be advanced to a higher grade is kept back to keep up the higher percentage of that grade. That is utterly wrong. In football we are told to play the referee; the teacher is playing the inspector.

With a central school all this would be avoided. It would be impossible to get it. The only opposition that might arise to such a scheme would be from people with a false sense of civic pride, people who looked upon the country school as the centre of the com­munity and the head of their social activi­ties. These people can be utterly disregarded. Having established such a centre for youth­teaching, we could with just expectation look for a vast advance in the standard of primary education.

There is one point, however, that I should like to emphasise as much as I can and that is the necessity for home work. It would be very hard indeed to overestimate the value of home work for the student. I know, particularly in rural areas and especially on· dairy farms, that as soon as the children arrive home they have to do farm work. The same thing applies in the morning. A little of that is a very good thing for the child but many people avoid mortgaging their properties only by mortgaging the future of their children. Early in life the great value of home work was forced home to me. Let me digress for a moment and illustrate my point from my past. We were brought up in a board school of the Scottish Education Department financed by grants from White­hall, London. The basis of finance was the number of pupils of a certain age who passed a certain standard at a set examination. I think the certificate was called the merit certificate, which was equal to the standard of our scholarship here. I think the age was 12. On the pass of each scholar a grant was made to that school. One notable result was

Su,pply. [7 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1329

that the best achievements were obtained by teachers who were not graduates from the university but were normally trained in the :Scottish training colleges. We had to work and work very hard at home at our home lessons. The teachers saw to it that they did. There was no excuse. If the home work was not up to standard you were belted, and properly belted too. The result was that we all developed a sense of responsibility. Later on the secondary schools drew their scholars from those board schools, plus the private preparatory schools where no home work was done. Each teacher could tell you which of his pupils was brought up in a board school, because of the home work he had to do. Some of my class-mates were Sir Walter Elliot, who was Minister for Agriculture in Great Britain-his wife was here the other day-the Chaplain-General of the Forces, Rev. A. M. Stevenson, Sir Henry Lithgow, at present Controller of Shipping in the old -country, and that outstanding figure and playwright of our time, '' Bridie, '' a doctor by profession, whose real name was Mavor. The !ate Lord Tweedsmuir, Governor-General of Canada, better known as John Buchan, was there too. All these fellows were brought up on oatmeal and home work. I would impress •on the Minister the necessity for home wo·rk. I know that when my children came home from school 3~ miles away, they had to work, but home work was essential. It makes the boy have a certain responsibility. It makes him accurate and it makes him clean in his work.

Then there is the correspondence system of education. This correspondence class is an excellent thing if there is competent super­vision. That seems to me to be the rock on whi0h this will perish. As my time has expired I shall have to deal with that matter l.ater on.

(Time expired.)

1\lr. WANSTALL (Toowong) (5.15 p.m.): The vote is to my mind one of the most important this Committee has to consider. There is no doubt that the future of this State, and indeed of the Commonwealth depends on the success of the national system of education; consequently I hope hon. mem­bers will contribute their views to this debate whatever they are.

I consider that the worth, efficiency, and degree of achievement of any educational system, national or otherwise, is directly reflected in the cultural and intellectual standard of its products-of society-not by the number of 12- or 13-year-old boys or girls who pass the scholarship examination or the number of 14- or 15-year-old boys or girls who pass the Junior examination. Yet that has been the test of the success of the education system not only in Queensland but in all States for many years-the number of students you can get through an examination up to a certain degree of educational testing and not the broad effect of education on their lives.

The tendency has been for many years to emphasise the vocational aspect of education to the detriment of the cultivation of the breadth and depth of the minds of the children. That

point was well made by the hon. member for Stanley. We in this State have for too long believed in the ''best ever'' tradition. We have prided ourselves on having the best edu­cational system in Australia, and some have claimed it to be the greatest of any educa­tional system. It has gone a certain distance on the desired road; it has done actually a valuable work; but one of the greatest dis­advantages under which we have been labour­ing is the belief that our system is better than so many others. There has recently been an encouraging awakening of public interest in education in all its aspects; I say "encouraging" because I believe the greater part of the troubles that beset education is due to the apathy of the people. While Governments merely have to fall into line with standards set by the people they will do so. If people are satisfied with a lower standard nobody can blame Governments for not endeavouring to shake them out of that apathy. But the people are gradually becoming education-conscious and that is a wonderful thing. The immediate effect will be to break the bubble of complacency that has blighted education in this country for so long.

In pursuing its journey along the educa­tion road Queensland has seen nobody ahead of it; it has looked over its shoulder and has seen no body behind it and it has said, "I am miles ahead of anybody else in my journey along the road of education.' ' That is not so. The position is that the enlightened countries have gone along in the other direc­tion, and that is why Queensland has not seen anybody jostling at her shoulder or anybody ahead of her. America is one example of an educationally enlightened country.

Mr. Illacdonald: What about Scotland?

Mr. WANSTALL: Scotland is another.

Mr. Larcombe: The order is wrong; it should have been Scotland first.

Mr. WANSTALL: Possibly I should have placed them in that order, but I will not go into international politics. Many overseas countries could give Australia and Queensland a great many points · about education. Wherever we go we can cull many good points. From America we can cull a number of good points. America abandoned external examinations 50 years ago and its system has been improved out of sight. In this country we have, particularly in Queensland, what I consider to be a high standard in the ele­mentary subjects on the academic side of edu­cation, arithmetic, reading and writing, but I think the entire conception is wrong. We have followed the rule of instructing the youth instead ·of educating them. There is a vast difference. Even our department is known as the Department of Public Instruc­tion. Its function should be education, not instruction.

The sooner we change the name, probably the better, but that it is so called does empha­sise the fact that we regard instruction as the be-all and end-all of education. The system in Queensland has become rigid, and I rely

1330 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

for that on no less authority than the Director­?eneral of Education, who spoke at the open­mg .of the Teachers' Union Conference. He ail!mtted tl;at the education system, rigid in I~s . coi:ceJ?bon an~ theory, had also become ~Igid m Its practical application. It is bad for any system of education to become rigid. When the system becomes inflexible and can­not cushion the changing developments or ~bsorb new ideas it becomes too rigid. For mstance, the set book on Method to be used in State schools, as set for the Teachers' Training College, was written in 1897. As a matter of fact, it is not used because the staff of the college have too much sense to rely on it, but it is still the set textbook. Why is that~ It is because our system is so rigid.

In setting such a high ceiling for our primary education in this State I think we have fallen into a grave error. We have produced a giraffe-like body, something that is reaching to too high a ceiling all the time, at the expense of the development of breadth. Comparison can be drawn between a pine tree in a dense scrub, stretching up to get the rays of the sun and another in the middle of a . field that broadens and develops and gets Its roots deep down in the soil. 'l'hat appears to be our conception of an educa­tional system-not to spr'ead, but to set a very high standard for arithmetic or some other academic subject. One of the great tragedies of our educational system is that too few of our children ever go beyond the stage of primary education. The smallness of number who proceed to secondary schools cries out ''For shame! '' in this twentieth century. 'vV e have much to learn from over­seas in the matter of education. Let us set about improving the standard of our educa­tional system.

One of the greatest evils has been the parsimonious attitude of Governments towards education. They have not provided sufficient money. The present vote is far too small for this State, particularly when you consider that it is less than £2 a head of tha population of Queensland. In other words, the people of Queensland are spending less than £2 a head on education. Of course, the Govern­ment are doing it for them. When one considers that in 1940-41 the Commonwealth Government collected in excise revenue on beer and spirits, £13,500,000-and those years were bad years of war-a figure that works out at nearly £2 a head of the total popula­tion of Australia, one can see the comparative position of the amount expended on educa­tion. These figures are not peculiar to Queensland. As a matter of fact, they apply equally to Victoria and New South 'vVales, but the point is that in Queensland we are spending less than £2 a head on education, and the Commonwealth Government are collecting as excise on beer and spirits about the same amount. That is excise only, and does not include the cost of the beer or the spirits.

lllr. Hanlon: That is purely a war-time innovation-a tax of 1,100 per cent. on spirits.

Mr. WAN STALL: Nevertheless it illus­trates that a Government can take from the

people in taxation on one item alone-and an unnecessary item-an amount that corres­ponds to that which the people are spending on the education of their children. It throws into vivid relief the position of education in this State.

.I. ~ave no desire to confine my remarks to cnbcism, 1 would suggest certain reforms, and t~e first and the one of greatest import­ance IS a very large increase in the salary of teachers.. I ~now there is an inquiry int<> the reclass1ficatwn of the Public Service and that there will be some amelioration of the .conditions under which they have been servmg so long, but it does strike one forcibly to find thab the average salary paid to teachers is £333 a year, teachers in schools of various types, primary, secondary ~nd colleges. The total number employed IS . 4!123. . These are figures provided by the Mimster m a return tabled this morning. The figure for teachers engaged solely in primary education is somewhere about the same, merely a few shillings less.

The. ave~·age wage of a teacher in Queens­land 1s shghtly over £300 a year. It is a wonder that we have the fine body of teachers we have at the moment. How can we expect to attract to the teaching profession-and it is one of the most important professions­the very best brains in the community'? Surely we need them in that avenue more than anywhere else. We must raise not only their salaries but also their status in the community. We must give them a standing in which they will be accorded due honour and recognition. We must give them pro­fessional registration. We must encourage them to develop initiative and individuality.

We must also permit teachers to express their opinions publicly even though they may not agree with the views of the Governnrent of the day. We must give the teaching pro­fession, not only in the University but right throughout the service, absolute freedom of speech. It is only then that they can ever hope to play the important part that is their lot in a civilised community.

The next reform I suggest is a large increase in the vote for all branches, not only the Chief Office. There should be a large increase for teacher-training. In the past we have not spent anything like the amount we should have in equipping our schools. We are not making adequate pro­vision even this year. The environment of the school has a deep and lasting effect upon the minds of the children educated in it. l<'or far too long have Governments been getting away with the provision of the bare skeleton of educational facilities and leav­ing it to committees and parents to provide the covering for that skeleton. I suggest that one of the most important things for the Government to consider is the improve­ment of the environment of schools and of equipment provided for the children. There is great room for improvement in the con­veniences. Why, in the metropolitan schools children are still being compelled to use those out-of-date earth closets, many of which I am afraid are rather nauseating! I have had complaints made to me that children

Supply. [7 NovEMBER-] S·uppzy. 1331

·attending schools in the metropolitan area are most Teluctaut to go to the conveniences because of the smells emanating £Tom them.

JUr. Hanlon: And the parents are com­plaining that they cannot use the lavatory at home because of the leaky pans.

J}lr. WAN STALL: This is not a matter for the Lord Mayor; it is a matter for the Department of Public Instruction. The Government should adopt a policy of enlarg­ing the areas of school grounds and of laying them out properly for playing· fields. They should also be responsible for putting the grounds in a reasonable playing condition for cricket and for football.

Mr. Hanlon: The present small grounds were provided by Tory Governments.

lllr. WAN STALL: I do not care who provided them. I am not responsible for any Tory Government, and if a Tory Govern­ment did provide them I shonld be just as .critic:;l of them. That old bogy does not cut any ICe, nor does it make it right. The ?-epartment should adopt the policy of enlarg­mg the school grounds, of providing suitable grounds with a contour lay-out that suits the particular school. They should provide a cricket pitch, football posts, tennis courts and basket-ball equipment, instead of leaving that to the committees. I know the depart­ment has decided recently to subsidise the <:ollections of committees pound for pound, but the department should be paying the whole of the cost. Why should it be left as an extra tax on parents who are willing to work and contribute~ Why should it not be spread over the whole of the population in the form of taxation, as it would be if the -department bore the whole of the expense~

Again, perhaps in one or two schools in this State there may be a dining-room for the children. If there is, it is a rare excep­tion. As a rule the children eat their lunch :anywhere. Very often they are so anxious to get out and play that they do not eat their I unch at all unless the teacher keeps :a strict eye on them. A proper room should be provided. There should be standard ·equipment at all schools for gymnasium exercises. The maintenance might properly be a matter for the parents, but certainly not the capital cost. There should be radio and cinema equipment.

It is a fact, as the Director-General mentions in his report, that a very small proportion of the schools are equipped with radio. Radio plays a very big part in our lives today and it will play an increasingly bigger part as time goes on. Unless the schools enter into the field of radio and see that the children get through the radio instruc­tion that is good, interesting and worth while, general appreciation of it will be lacking ·and the standard of the radio programme will not be suitable for the children. I am reminded of an incident that took place in a metropolitan school recently. The teacher set the class, of girls, whose RgBs mnrred within 12 and 13, to write an essay on ''The man I should most like to meet.'' One or two said they would like to meet Churchill,

and others mentioned other world figures including Mr. F. D. Roosevelt and Field­Marshal Montgomcry, but the overwhelm­ing majority wanted to meet Frank Sinatra. Some wanted to meet Bing Orosby. Does that not indicate that there is room for good radio talks in schools~

There are many other aspects of education on which I s;hould like to make suggestions but I shall do that on the individual votes. I have in mind, for instance, libraries and physical education. We must place greater stress on the development of character and civics in our schools. The Minister for Information in the Federal Government spoke out of his turn when he suddenly discovered that the schools in Australia did not teach any civics, because in Queensland we have been teac,hing it to a certain extent for 12 to 13 years, but there is still room for a great deal of improvement. I: am quite sure that it will interes-t hon. members to know that in the curriculum for the schools under the Victorian system dealing with eivics and character development there is included-

'' Duty: the meaning of duty. "Honour: Its meaning. High minded­

ness as opposed to manners. Truthfulness and hone·sty combined with loyalty to principles.

"Respect for the law. ''Loyalty and patriotism. ''Respect for property.''

They even ;have mock elections-with preferen­tial voting. The children are taught how to allocate their preferences. Look at what a boon that would have been to Queensland! It would have saYed the Government com­mitting one of its greatest follies-the aboli­tion of contingent voting on the ground that the people did not have enough intelligence to exercise it. In Victoria they teach the children how to use the vote. That is one reform that we might make in our education system.

Mr. MOO RE (Merthyr) (5.36 p.m.): It has been said that this is one of the most important votes to be considered by the Committee. I believe that it is, too. It does not matter what the potentialities of this great State are; if the rising generation are not mentally equipped to carry out the great work that lies ahead, the potentialities of the State will not be of much avail.

I desire to compliment the department on the great work it has done during the wm. period. A big number of teachers, well over 1,200, have joined the fighting forces and the ranks of the teaching staff have been very seriously depleted. Despite that fact the Minister and his department have done everything possible to spread education to the children and I think they are to be corn­mended on the fair way in which they have carried out this very important work. In looking through the report by the Director­General it is surprising to note the small number of schools that have not had teachers and the small number of children who have not received some sort of education. It appears to be popular

1332 Supply. (ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

nowadays for many people, including unfortunately some in high places who should know better, to deprecate the help given by the Government and to adversely criticise the administration of certain Government depart­ments. I think it is very unfair and in my opinion the criticism in most cases is based on false premises when Australia in general and Queensland in particular are compared with the older countries of the world.

From time to time many definitions of education have been given. They all appear to centre around the process whereby young people are educated and guided to deve~op their capacities and to enable them to thmk and discriminate between various mental activities. There have been many definitions, as I have said, but it would appear that education sets out to develop what ability there is in an individual to equip him to attack the problems of his later life. I think the war effort of the Queenslander-I say Queenslander because we are discussing the Estimates of the Department of Public Instruction in Queensland-shows that his education, whether gained in the primary or m secondary school has mentally equipped him to attack the problems he set out to attack in the war effort. If I might dis­criminate, but not in an unfair way, an out­standing example is to be had in those young men who joined the Air Force. I am told by men in a position to judge that these young men mastered a course in months that normally took years to assimilate. We all know of their great achievements, side by side with the young men of other parts of the world. We all know, too, that the Queenslander has come out of all his tests, trials and operations with outstanding ability. For my part I do not want any greater example of the soundness of our educational system in the past than the fact that these young men were able to rise and take their place with the youth of the rest of the world and emerge from the test with conspicuous success.

Nobody would argue that we should be complacent about the advances that we have made in our educational system. The Director-General of Education in his report very comprehensively sets out what has been done by the department in the way of future planning. Again I say we have men in high offices, unfortunately very close to the Government and who should therefore know better, talking about ''too much talk and not enough action.'' I say thes.e people, particularly those close to the Government, should realise that it is impracticable to put any schemes into operation during the throes of war.

Mr. Plnnkett: The Governor said that.

Mr. MOO RE: I want to say now that it was an inconsidered statement. I make no apology as to who said it.

The outstanding matter in the report of the Director-General of Education is the information presented to Parliament concern­ing the raising of the school-leaving age. This is one of the most advanced reforms in the educational system of any country. The

Director-General prefaces his remarks by pointing out that this reform will have to be postponed to some extent on account of difficulties, including buildings, staffing, &c. He says further-

'' The best possible steps are, however, being taken with the object of implement­ing, as early as possible, a decision to raise the school-leaving age.'' It is rather interesting to note that the

Director-General addressed the Apprentice­ship Committee on this matter. His remarks probably summarised the object of this pro­posed reform-

" A careful and exhaustive record will be kept of the progress of each post-primary pupil. Parents and boys will be consulted with respect to vocational aims, and the possibility of attainment of these aims, taking into consideration economic circum­stances and abilities, will be discussed with them. Psychological tests of general and special abilities will be used to assist in reaching conclusions with respect to abilities.'' It can be seen from a study of the pro­

posals embodied in this reform that the department will then set out to equip the child to tackle the problems in the outside world much better than it has done in the past.

The proposed increase in the school age, I think, has been referred to as the post­primary course, and will cover the period to 15 years. The report of the Director-General goes on to say-

'' The school should provide for the pre­adolescent and adolescent years a life which answers to their special needs and brings out their special "~Calues. Consequently, the intermediate or post-primary school-the highest type of school that most of the children will know-should do whatever is necessary to achieve the followings ends-''

Briefly the Director-General discusses those important matters that shall receive atten­tion. The pupils will be educated as to health and the need to work, they will be instructed in the correct methods of play, and they will be 10ducated as to character in order to help the development of an outlook that will conform with the desired standards. They will be trained to appreciate culture and they will acquire at school information that will stand them in good stead in the trainings that may follow later on.

The Director-General goes on to say-'' One of the tasks of the school course

from 12 to 15 is to assist the pupils to understand and to cope with this world of change. This requires knowledge and adaptability.''

I should say that one of the weaknesses of the present system is that the child who receives nothing further than a primary education is not altogether equipped to set out into the world. There appears to be a gap and that gap is at a very very dangerous period in the young person's life. It may mean all the difference between a youth's going along the right path and falling by the wayside. It is

Supply. [7 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1333

proposed under this system to carry on the child over that very dangerous gap, and I feel that that in itself will do much, to cope with many of the dangers with which our youth are confronted today.

The report suggests that if the school­leaving age is raised to 15, the amount and quality of useful learning and skill should be augmented, and says, ''only usable knowledge, skill, and attitudes are power." I am inclined to think that in our primary and secondary education today there is some overlapping of subjects that might be regarded in many cases as not us€ful. I believe that under uur present system a little extra stress was placed on happenings in the past, probably they over-stressed such things as certain his­torical events, and I do not think that what led up to the present-day activities was firmly enough established.

The Director-General then refers to the teaching, and he suggests that the pupils are not to be asked to fit into the programme but that the programme should be arranged to fit the pupil. That is an excellent idea because this programme of education will tend to bring out in the child the capabilities natural to the child, and that being so we shall not find so many square pegs in round holes.

The report proceeds to state that this system will be graded into three stages beginning with 12 years of age and finishing with 15 years.

"The differentiation should be based on capacities as revealed in the first year, school records, desires of the pupil, and such assistance as may be obtained from the application of intelligence tests.''

At one stage we were inclined ta look askance on intelligence tests. Many people were of the opinion that it was another new-fangled notion, but the evidence today is that intelli­gence tests properly applied can establish that a child is not suitable for certain callings. These tests narrow the scope of the profes­sion or trade for which a child might be suit­able.

The programme briefly sets out too the need for a solid foundation of the English language. That is very necessary. I should prefer to have a child to have a sound know­ledge of the English language than to have a smattering of some foreign languages.

The report then deals with arithmetic-and in that there is a departure from the estab­lished custom-which will equip a child for a business career after leaving school. The report states-

'' Arithmetic, giving a knowledge of the theory and operations of common business institutions and systems used in every-day life, including banking, insurance and taxa­tion.''

That is an excellent idea. It is not right that only those with a secondary education should be able to go into the professions or into business. This system will equip the nverage child to go into such a position, and the c•1rriculum will be changed to give him the :t.,ecessary elementary knowledge.

Another very important change will be th() part that manual training will play in the curriculum. The report states-

'' This-the most expensive form of edu­cation-must be extended to meet the educational needs of the great bulk of students who will be required to attend schoo1 until the age of 15. The work should be almost wholly manual, and in the case of boys, should be closely correlated with drawing.''

The Director-General then proceeds to talk of manual training, as having value as a mental training, value for the hand and the eye, a hobby value and domestic value, and a value as offering a creative outlet for those who do not excel in abstract things. In other wor<ls, a combination of the practical and theoretical will help to develop in the child the ability to grapple with tha work that it will do after leaving school. He proceeds further tO' say that manual training should embrace draw­ing, woodwork and metal work for boys and domestic economy, cookery and dressmaking for girls. That is a very important matter.

We have heard a good deal in this Assembly during this session of the post-war Queens­land. We have heard that we must develop this country. We have heard that we must encourage our young women to settle down and become the mothers of our new genera­tions of Australians. What better equipment could we give these young women than an education in domestic science7 It would help them not only to carry out their duties as wives and mothers but to be a consider­able aid in the economy of the home. One has only to walk down the streets of this city and sea th~ shocking prices being charged by our reta1l houses for women's clothing in particular to appreciate what a great thing it would be if the majority of our young women were taught to be efficient with their sewing machines and needles. Domestic economy should be a compulsory subject for all female students in both primary and secondary schools.

In conclusion I congratulate the teachers on the great work they have done under adverse circumstances. I also congratulate the members of the forces from the Depart­ment of Public Instruction upon the great work they have done on the war front.

Mr. PIE (Windsor) (7.15 p.m.): We all agree that education is something that should be discussed in this Chamber very fully. From my viewpoint education probably as,sumes a different aspect to that which it presents to many othar people. I have always. held that the development of character is probably one of the main essentials of the equipment for life of any child. Therefore, in any of my visits to the schools in my electorate I have always held the view and tried to impress it upon the scholars., and the teachers too, that the development of character to equip us for the lifa that lies ahead is absolutely essential.

Teaching, to my way of thinking, is a noble profession. To me in its highest sense it compares very favourably with the medical profession. The medical profession brings

1334 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] S11pply.

be~1efits to the sick; the teaching profession bmlds character, moulds the mind and shapes the citizen of tomorrow. Whatever we have to say about the future of this country, what­ever political views we may have, \\·e must all agree that the future of t11is great Aus­tralian nation depends. upon proper education for the present generation. That generation will have itremendous responsibilities in the framing of any new world that lies ahead. And there must be a new world ahcar1, because this world of today cannot continue in the way that it has in the past. Therefore there is an obligation not only on the Government but on all people to encourage teachers and those who are responsible for the education of our future generation.

As I have said, the future of this country depends on the education of our youth. We muslt try to instil into them a higher sense of citizenship and a higher sense of duty to this country. During the war there has been willing service by all people, in the Red Cross Society, for tne Comforts Fund, and in other patriotic ways. Why should not that service to the country go forward in the days of peace~ To my way of thinking there has been too much ''take'' and not enough ''put'' in this country. The sooner the present generation are taught that what we give them in education, what we give them in social amenities, demands an obligation to this country the better this country will be. The responsibility for all these things still comes back to the teaching. When you analyse the time spent by a child you realise that from 8 o'clock in the morning till probably 4 o'clock in the afternoon his character is being moulded by the teacher. Whatever you may say in criticism of the teacher he bears a grave responsibility for the moulding of character.

The Government can provide fine buildings and equipment, but more than that is needed. There is no question that they have provided some fine buildings, but they have not provided very much equipment. The equipment, as pointed out by the hon. member for Too­wong, has been supplied in many cases by the committees- of the schools, and it is only now that the Government are agreeing to subsidise the cost of the equipment provided by the committees on a pound-for-pound basis. 'rhc schools in the poorer electorates are probably more in need of equipment than, say tbe schools in the Hamilton or Windsor eledto·rates, and those are rather badly in need of equipment. A completa analysis Eh01~1r1 be made of all the schools to see what eqmp­ment is available and what is required. The Government should make equipment available to all the schools in the initial stages on a properly defined basis.

Mr. ,Jesson: Would it surprise you to know that the equipment of schools in the poorer suburbs is better than that in the well-to-do ones~

Mr. PIE: I do not mind what the hon. member for Kennedy thinks, but I do wish to continue my speech free from interjection, if it is at all possible.

We must have men and women well balanced, well educated, and endowed physic­ally, m!mtally, morally and spiritually, with capacity to build that character that is needed in our Australian nation. But, sir, I make this definite charge, that there is no chance of elevating the teaching profes­sion whilst this Government retains their present outlook in relation to the salaries paid to teachers. You know as well as I, Mr. :Mann, that the salaries offered to the teachers who are the guiding influence in building the characters of our children are less than those paid to a well-paid clerk. For instance, a bank clerk obtains a junior university pass. He enters a banking institn­tion, and in the course of time automatically reaches a salary of £452 per annum, not by examination, not by virtue of his ability, but automatically. We pay our highest classified teacher, apart from head teachers, a maximum of about £452.

lUr. Turner: How does he become a classified teacher f

Mr. PIE: By examination; you should know.

Mr. Turner: You said he did not.

Jir. PIE: I was talldng of clerks. If you listen to my speech you will understand.

The CHAIRJliAN: Order!

Mr. PIE: The advancement of teachers. for the benefit of the hon. membe.r for Kelvin Grove, is not automatic. They must continue to study to get salary increases. In my electorate-I know, as I have visited most of the schools in it-I find that many teachers who are getting the better educational results are in a low classification. ·whereas other teachers who are not getting results are, because of their ability to pass examina­tions and not because of their ability to handle children and build up the best in them, paid higher salaries. I say emphatic­ally that something must be done to examine these teachers a part from their scholastic ability. We must examine them from the point of view of building the character of this nation, because to my way of thinking that is the only way we can hope to build a nation.

Take the question of retirements. It can be proved that the pensions paid to bank clerks are greatly superior to those of teachers. The position in Queensland today is that over 70 per cent. of our teachers receive a salary of a little over £6 a week. Imagine that! The responsibility of teaching children, 'the a&Jumption of tJ1e responsibility of building into them some­thing we cannot give at home, rests with those teachers, yet 70 per cent. of them are getting paid a little over £6 a week! Why, here in this Parliament we have been trying to give aldermen of the Brisbane City Council £500 a year. Compare their work for the community with the responsibilities of the school teacher! Compare their responsibility with that of a member of Parliament! It is time this Government reviewed the whole

8uppl1J. [7 NovEMBER.] Supply.

o£ the1r payments to teachers, otherwise there must be trouble ahead of this nation. Do this Government expect a man, his wife and family to exist on that salary~ The thing is absurd.

.:U:r. Jesson: What about the navvy?

~r. PIE: What about you too~ You try to live on it.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. PIE: Do the Government expect to obtain people with specialised knowledge for £6 a week~ Do they expect them to spend their spare time studying on £6 a week, and take a job wherever the depart­ment desires to send them~ No, sir! This position has to be altered if this nation of ours. is ever going to become the great nation we expect it to be. There must be a reclassification of their salaries. I under­stand that the Government are now considering that classification.

3Ir. Cooper: They have ordered it.

l\Ir. Larcombe: It is past the considering stage.

.:U:r. PIE: I am very pleased to hear that. That should have been done long ago. 1 cannot understand the delay in any Govern­ment's appreciation of the responsibility that educating the people of this country casts upon 70 per cent. of the teachers who are paid a salary of a little over £300 a year.

The position is absurd. I say there should be immediate implementation of the decisions reached by the Government and the Queens­land Teachers' Union in conjunction. They have not been implemented yet. I feel certain the public as a whole will look forward to seeing what this Government are doing in relation to that reclassification. I can assure you, Mr. Mann, that the Queens­land People's Party will support to the very end a better consideration of the noble art of teaching.

)Ir. Jcsson: What is the Queensland People's Party~

}lr. PIE: Something the hon. member will never know much about.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

}Ir. PIE: There should be a complete re gauging of salaries. You know, Mr. Mann the responsibility the teachers have up in vom: own school in Spring Hill. You know" the responsibility of handling those children up there. You know very well that you would not take the job on for £300 a year; you would not take it on for £400 a year because it is one of the big jobs in the future of this nation. We must raise the status of the teaching profession.

There is no doubt that during the war the Government have been making a very good thing out of the teachers. The staff has been depleted because of war, but the teachers have loyally carried on; you have heard very little complaint from them. I

believe we must say about the teaching pro­fession that they have stood out as one of the most noble professions of this war. If you go to any school you will see the tremendous work that is evident; you will see the over­lapping of classes where teachers are teach-­ing up to 50 and 60 in a class.

Mr. Power: Don't you know there is a;. war on~

1\Ir. PIE: I know that, and the hon. member does too or he should. I have not seen any bonuses or any increases in salary. for teachers, but I have seen many dis­appointments coming to teachers because there is no willingness to recognise . them monetarily for the work they have put in. No, sir, there is no question that the Govern­ment have done well out of the teachers . during the war. They have benefited from a reduced overhead expenditure in running the department, which has contributed materially. to the big surplus the Treasurer has shown in his Budget. It is time recognition was. given to them. The quicker this Government realise it the better.

Teachers are graded in three classes, III., II., and I. The Class III. teacher, I under­stand, requires to pass an examination that is harder than the Junior public examination. I previously explained that this qualification means that t;he position is little higher than a clerk's, but for 11 ~ years the Public Service clerk gets automatic increases each year, not a clerk by ability, till he reaches £332; but after a similar period the teacher's increases, which are not automatic but depend on inspection, hring him to £332, if he is still a Class III. teacher. After the responsibility of handling hundreds and hundreds of children during that period, and building something into, them that you and I at home cannot build into them, at the end of 11~ years he is paid the munificent salary of £332. Surely you will agree with me, as honest men, that it is fantastic to put a teacher on the same level as a Public Service clerk. The Secretary for Agriculture and Stock, heing an ex-teacher, will realise how fantastic it is. It is. impossible to get the right type of people to come forward as teachers or to expect men and women already in the profession and who are so disgracefully underpaid to continue on this basis. What ambition have they got~ To reach the salary of £452 which is the limit of their career if they are not head teachers. Something must be done about it if we are to do the things we hope to do in the world that lies ahead. I believe the late Chief Justice MeCawley placed the teachers' wage £25 ahead of the clerks' wage, but later the Industrial Court ruled that out.

To summarise the position; the standard of Queensland's State education, fortunately is not reflected in the salaries paid to 'the teachers. Whatever we think or say in criticising the salaries, they are surely not a reflection of the standard of education in our State schools. I made a statement in this Chamber that thanks to the teachers alone the standard of education in our State schools

1336 Supply. [ASSE~1BL Y.] Supply.

is equal to the State school education through­out Australia. That is all bound up in the teachers and unless we treat them more equitably compared with people in other jobs, that standard will rapidly deteriorate. If we judge by salaries then Queensland is far worse off from an educational viewpoint than any other State in Australia. I have always believed-and I have expounded it during this session-in the principle of pay­ing for work well done, and until we adopt that principle from the educational point of view we shall never get anywhere in this State. I say emphatically that if we wa~t the quality of our teachers improved we must pay for it. Whatever the added cost may be, it would certainly be worth it. As was said by the hon. member for Stanley, our ji'Outh is our greatest national asset. Every­thing must be done to develop that asset. Th€ future greatness of this country dependi7 on our youth now being educated in oJR schools. In short, education is the cornerstone of a free new democracy that must come out of this bloody conflict. This cornerstone can be truly laid only by making certain that our teachers are sufficiently remunerated to inspire them to greater educational know­ledge.

Hon. J. LARCOMBE (Rockhampton­Secretary for Public Instruction) (7.36 p.m.): The hon. member for Windsor would have done well to follow the lead set by the hon. member for Stanley who opened the debate for the Opposition and who raised the discussion above the level of party politics. The hon. member for Windsor knows quite well that the Government announced some time ago that they had agreed to a reclassification scheme for teachers. He pretended tonight that he did not.

Mr. Pie·: Fifteen years too late.

Mr. LARCOMBE: He knows the promise was made on the eve of the election and honoured soon afterwards but for sordid party political reasons he ignores that fact tonight and indulges in a tirade of abuse of the Government. The hon. member knows quite well that the salaries and conditions of teachers are fixed by an industrial tribunal. He knows quite well, or should know if he has not neglected his duties as a parliamen­tarian that preliminary steps ~ave been taken by the' Government to provide for that reclassi­fication scheme, that the Government have agreed to a method that requires the Public Service Commissioner, a representative of the Queensland Teachers' Union, and the Director­General of Education to meet and discuss the proposed reclassification scheme and in ordinary courtesy and decency it would have been fitting and proper for the hon. member to have awaited the result of that conference rather than raise the que~tion he did tonight.

The only qualification the hon. member for Windsor has for asking for a higher rate of salaries for teachers is that he and his party did nothing while they were in power. To speak paradoxically. ~h~t. is the only just~fi­<>ation he has for cnbc1smg. We know qu1te well that whatever might be the limitations

of the salaries and conditions o£ teachers in Queensland today, they are infinitely better than they ever were under any previous Government in the State. We know that in 1914-15, the year before the Labour Govern­ment attained power, the total expenditure on education in Queensland was £500,000 or a little more than that, whereas today we are asking for an expenditure exceeding £2,000,000 -probably a record for the State and a sub­stantial increase of £220,000 on the expendi­ture for last year.

The hon. member for Windsor is fast becoming a party politician, because previously in this Chamber he has paid the highest tribute to this Government ;in connectiou with education. He knows quite well that I quoted him earlier in the session in reply to a question. I extracted from ' 'Hansard ' ' the very fine tribute he, paid to the Govern­ment for their educational work.

l'llr. Cooper: He was sincere then.

Mr. LARCOl'IIBE: He was, then.

Mr. Brand: You are not doubting his sincerity, are you~

lUr. LARCOMBE: I am complimenting him on his political and logical agility.

The hon. member for Stanley dealt with the general question of education in a very commendable manner. He spoke of the importance of education. No nation is stronger than its educational system, coupled with its system of political economy. The two go together. They react one upon the other. The Government recognise that and have done so in their work.

The hon. member for Stanley referred to the definition of "education." That is a very important start for a discussion of this kind. The definition of ''education'' is not fixed and rigid, like that of a straight line oT of the rule of two and two. Education does not depend for its meaning upon a Latin root or the derivative of a French word. It is an organic word, growing, expanding, developing, like a human being, taking on fresh connota­tions and implications day by day. The definition of "education" that sufficed even a quarter of a century ago is in many respects obsolete today. Education connotes the phy­sical, mental, moral, spiritual, industrial, and commercial. It really means making the best of life. It connotes, as Herbert Spencer says, the art of living.

It has been said in the course of the dis­cussion that too much attention has been paid to the vocational side of training, but I submit that that is not so. The department in Queensland is endeavouring with no little success to balance the vocational with the mental, the spiritual, the physical and the moral. I suppose it is hard to find the exact balance, but the educational leaders of the department are endeavouring with a good deal of success to find that balance.

The hon. member for Stanley spoke of the limitation of our educational system. That limitation reflects the limitation of human nature. All things are imperfect and that imperfection is naturally reflected in our

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Supply. 1337

educational and other systems and institutions in life.

JI'Ir. Gair: Agriculture is not perfect.

lUr. LARCOMBE: No. The fallibility of human nature is such that no human is perfect, but the motto of the Department of Public Instruction is, '' Excelsior' '-onwards and upwards. In our actual work we are giving practical expression to that motto.

Future policy in education is important and was touched upon by the hon. member for Stanley. I should like to mention one or two phases of the future policy of the Government in regard to education. The rais­ing of the school-leaving age is a very definite ph~se of the Government's future educational pohc;y:. It h.as b~en argue:d that the age should ?e rrused still higher than is proposed. That IS a matter for subsequent consideration. The Government are pledged to raise the school­leaving age to 15 years. A reorganised curri­culum will be provided by the educational leaders of the department in connection with this reform.

Mr. Brand: When are you going to do it?

Mr. LARCOMBE: The hon. member for Toowong spoke about the alleged rigidity of our educational system and quoted the remarks of the Director-General of Educa­tion with respect to it but he did not 9uote the whole of his remarks. For mstance, he did not say that the Director­General ha~ added that steps were being taken to give the required elasticity to ·our educational system. Those who have read the report in relation to the proposed revised eurriculum will agree, I think, with the hon. mem~er . ~or Merthyr that it is a very fine cont~Il;muon to .the subject, t;h.at it implies elas~Ic1ty, and Improvement. It implies a curnculum based upon modern educational thought. The department does not contend, as w~s suggest~d by one speaker opposite, that 1ts educational system is the bes·t in the world or the best in Australia, because it does not make any such invidious compari­sons, but we ean say, in relation to our expenditure per head of the population that we are not behind the other States ~f the Commonwealth.

Mr. Macdonald: That is the true test.

Mr. LARCOMBE: If it is the true test then we certainly are not behind the othe; States of the Commonwealth.

Some years ago a competition was held in Australia and in relation to mathematics and other subjects the school children of Queens­land excelled themselves.

Mr. Wanstall: But not in E.nglish.

:il'Ir. LARCOMBE: Various reasons were given by the adjudicators and writers on the subject why in Queensland the children were superior to the children of the other States. That is a rather important matter of fact, and of history, and not simply a claim by the department.

The raising of the school-leaving age, hon. members will realise I am sure, is dependent

upon the ending of the war and of the return to Queensland of the 1,200 teachers who are in the fighting services. I suppose it would be too much to expect that they will all return­some of them have already paid the supreme sacrifice-but most of them, we hope, will return, and they will enable us to carry out· our raising-of-the-school-age scheme. We cannot do that without more teachers, and we cannot do it without substantially more accommodation. We know how very limited the resources of the State are today in the matter of tradesmen, architects, draughtsme~ and other workmen required to erect schools in Queensland. We are doing our very best today to meet the immediate needs of the State.

T;h.e Government have shown some vision, imagination, a spirit of progressiveness and an energy of action in ever anticipating the problems of the future and making provision for them.

Already we have acquired sites in various parts of the State upon which to ereet our post-primary schools in connection with the raising-of-the-school-leaving-age scheme. We have also submitted information con­cerning those sites to the Department of Public Works so that plans for t)le building may be prepared. Although the school-leaving age has not been raised or legislation intro­duced for the purpose, all the necessary pre­liminary work is being done so that when the proper time arrives the scheme will be imple­mented. I might sa;v in this regard that even in England, which 1s very progressive today in respect of education, there is a proviso in the Englis;h. Act enabling the Government to postpone the raising of the school·leaving age until 1947. That is to say, although the Act provides for the raising of the age in 1945 it contains a proviso fo the effect that in special circumstances it may be deferred until 1947. No-one ean tell with certainty when the war will end.

I should like to repeat that provision has been made for the reclassification of the teachers. That is important. So far as the general principle is concerned we are all at une, we are together, we are all agreed that there should be a proper recognition of the status of teachers, that they ought to be paid the best possible salaries the State can pay, and that their conditions ought to be the very best. I am pleased indeed at the attitude taken up by the Queensland Teacher~' Union on this question. The leaders appreci­ate the aetion of the Government and they are pleased with the preliminary provisions that have been made for the reclassification scheme.

Mr. Macdonald: But you omit to make any reference to character-building.

Mr. LARCOMBE: I do not omit it at all; I take it for granted. I naturally assume that all hon. members agree that the art of teaching is not merely a question of intel· lectual training, but it includes also character­building, the infusion into our state of life of the spirit of Anzac.

1338 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

We know that the war wit)J. its terrible consequences has some redeeming features. Shakespeare said-

" There is some soul of goodness in things evil

Would men observingly distil it out."

One of the good things is that the great majority of people are learning the meaning of sacrifice, the meaning of social service, the meaning of many other things in the souls of men and women that peace and luxury do not teach. Although we are paying a terrible price for war t)J.e fact remains that we are learning something. The teachers are learning something and are imparting what they learn to the school children. These things are not only mental training but also character-building, the making of all the

, attributes that human personality should possess.

There are to be better accommodation and ·better equipment ·for the Teachers' Training College. That is another reform that the Government have in mind and hope to carry out. There are difficulties in the way of getting immediately the additional

• accommodation and equipment but the ques­tion is ever present and is being discussed by the Director-General of Education and other officers of the department with me with a view to carrying out that reform at the earliest possible opportunity. The Government are fully behind the department and have given us full authority to carry out the reasonable reforms required.

lUr. Pie: It should have been done years . ago.

Mr. LARCOlliBE: What a childish inter­jection ! Just imagine saying to t)J.ose magnificent soldiers, after four or five years' fighting driving the enemy back to his own borders, "It should have been done four or five years ago." VVe have done wonder­ful work. I do not want to get on to party .politics, in a discussion on this vote, if l can avoid it, but I am forced to elaborate what we ha\·e done in the past few years, and I will do so in a few moments. We sbould have done that years ago. In ,:;o years' time after which. great advancement will have been made in educational matters in Queensland, we shall find some foolish interjector in this Chamber saying, ''It should have been done long ago.'' The world is composed of two classes, those who do things and those who hang over the fence and say, "It should have been done long ago." We can say in the words of the poet-

'' Something attempted, something done.'' We do not want to take any credit for it.

Mr. Brand: Perish the thought!

lUr. LARCOMBE: Despite the lead given by the )J.on. member for Stanley some hon. members are striving to make education a party political question.

Mr. Brand: You have been here for 24 years and you have done nothing else but m11ke this a party political question.

Mr. LARCOlUBE: If I have been here for 24 years it is a fair indication of the confid · ence the people have in me, apart from the party I represent. Very few members have been here 24 years, but I have been and it is some indication of duty done.

Let me pass on now to the question of central schools. The hon. member for Stanley advocated the establishment of central schools. I quite agree with ,him. That too is a phase of the department's policy and the Government's policy. Here again we are up against insuperable difficul­ties. vVe cannot close down any schools at present. The small schools are too valuable to close down. We cannot sacrifice one squarP foot of accommodation in Queens­land at the present time. The hon. member fur Stanley and some of his colleagues have concurred in th-e Government's action. 'I' he Government have made inquiries in various parts of the State for sites for central schools.

Mr. lUacdonald: I can give you a few in my area.

Mr. LARCOlUBE: Of course you can; every )J.on. member can. These sites have been considered by the Government and departmental officers so that where considered advisable and necessary central schools can be established. They are certainly a step in the right direction. The central-school system in Tasmania is giving very fine results. I am pleased to say that as far back as 1927 the Queensland Government adopted the project club in association with our rural schools. It embraced many elements of the Tasmanian central-school system . 'l'ha t system develops originality and initia · tive and allows the pupil to work out problems in practical life. In this way many boys develop confidence. Many elements of the central-school system in Ta'smani.a have been in operation in Queensland for many years.

I should like tu refer to the speech of the hon. member for Toowong, who spoke on the same lines as the hon. member for Windsor. If there is trj be wholesale criticism there should be balance; there should be a recognition of the Government's work. The Government have done good work in education. Critie1s;n is a very great and powerful factor in life; honest, fair, broad criticism is cleansing; it is strengthening, it is purify­ing, it has very important attributes; but when the criticism is one-sided and unfair it is unsound and reflects upon the educational leaders as well as upon the Government. Very often in an attempt to discredit the Government educational leaders are dis­credited. That is very undesirable and very improper. We do not wish hon. members to get up and praise the Government iu plati­tudinous terms or exaggerated appreciation; but if criticism is to be indulged in we have the right to set down what the Government have done.

The remarks of the hon. member for Windsor and the hon. member for Toowong remind me of a very fine writer who on a satirical note pointed out how much better he could have arranged the heavenly bodies had

Supply. [7 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1339

he been the chosen architect. According to him he would have placed the sun, in a much more satisfactory position, and he would have spaced the stars differently, and he would have coloured the heavens differently. Today we have some who tell us that if they ha'd control of the Government and the department, they would, metaphorically speaking, place the sun in a much more satisfactory position, adjust the stars and colour the heavens in a way that would astonish the people of Queensland. The only weakness in their argument is that they had the opportunity but failed. They were weighed in the balance and found want­ing. '' Tekel,'' that is what we can write of the hon. member for Windsor and the hon. member for Toowong.

Let me briefly mention in broad outline what the Government have done. First of all, in regard to physical education, although it is only recently we have provided for physical education in schools, on modern up-to-date lines, it is many years since the Government started this work of providing a sound physique and a strong body for the children. With our baby-clinic scheme and our public hospital system the Government laid the foundation of sound, healthy children who could be properly educated in the schools of Queensland.· We know that weak children are a handicap to themselves and the teacher. Recognising that and the need for having a sound mind in a sound body, the Government started outr with this scheme of health educa· tion. Millions have been spent on the mothers and children, which has given a sound physical start to the education of the children of this State. Recently we supple· mented that excellent work by the scheme now in operation, for which money is pro· vided on the Estimates. We have a very tine director of physical education from Western Australia, and he and his teachers are doing very fine work throughout Queens· land.

Mr. Wanstall interjected.

Mr. LARCOMBE: If the hon. member looked he would find a substantial amount is provided for physical education. Probably he is referring to physical fitness as distinct from physical education. Apart from physi· cal education the Government have provided, in conjunction with the Federal Government, a scheme of physical fitness-a phy&ical fit­ness campaign that has to do with youth and with adults apart from the school physical education altogether.

)fr. WanstaJI: Are you providing them with gymnasium equipment~

Mr. LARCOiUBE: We are helping greatly in many ways. Throughout Queensland we find there has been a very excelJe.nt response from the clubs and others concerned. Mr. Harris is the Director of Physical Fitness. He is a young Queenslander who won fame for himself, not only as a teacher, but as a great sport, a great footballe.r. He was invited to the other side of the world to play football, and he distinguished him­self there and broadened his mind and came

back to this State and took up the work I have mentioned.

Concerning adult education, the Govern· ment have appointed an Adult Education Board that will be meeting next week. That is a step forward in the education of the State. It will give· an opportunity to those who have left school and desire, if not to pursue a particular course of study, to follow general reading-to study history, biography and other subjects that are not only interest­ing but valuable to the citizens of the State.

The Government have established a Board of Post-primary Studies and Examinations. That is a splendid link between the Depart­ment of Public Instruction and the Govern­ment and will be valuable to the department in advising on the curriculum and other subjects. Of course, these two boards I have just discussed came into existence really as the result of the passing of the National Education Co-ordination and the University of Queensland Acts Amend­ment Act and I pay tribute here to the former Premier of Queensland, Hon. W. Forgan Smith, for the splendid work he did in promoting that measure. I am not saying he was wholly responsible but he did a large measure of the work that was involved. It is an Act that democratises education and forms a proper link between the University and the Department of Public Instruction, a very valuable and advanced step in educa­tion in Queensland.

In regard to pre-school child welfare the Government have done excellent work in obtaining sites in various parts of the State and parents in the rommendable spirit o£ self-help have agreed to erect buildings thereon. The Government will assist and I think local authorities will assist the parents who in a very laudable manner are providing buildings in order that children may be accommodated and looked after.

Hon. members know, I presume-and I only wish to emphasise it-what has been done in recent months in regard to musical education. A string quartet has done splendid work in the metropolitan area and is extending its activities to other parts of the State. 'rhat is one aspect of the cultural phase of our policy, and cultural education is exalted by the hon. member who suggested that vocational training was obtaining too great emphasis in our curriculum and sufficient attention was not being paid to the cultural side of education. In addition to the string quartet teachers of singing have been appointed. A number are to take up duty in Townsville, Maryborough, Rockhamp­ton and other parts of the State. The decen­h·alisation of teaching is a notable feature of our educational policy.

I might mention that for many years no subsidy was offered by the Government of the State for school libraries. I think it was eliminated in 1931. The Government have reintroduced that subsidy and now offer £1 for £1 for the purpose· of enabling school committees to establish libraries so that school children may take home books and do general reading. In nddition we provided

1340 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppl!l·

96,000 books for children who may desire te engage in general reading in school.

Recently the Government decided to sub­stantially increase the allowance to trainees at the Teachers' Training College. That is no small contribution to the better conditions of prospective teachers. At a Cabinet meet­ing yesterday it was agreed to generously increase the scholarship allowance and that will not only help the parents of the school children but will help educational progress in this State.

The hon. member for Toowong said that enough money was not spent on education in Queensland. I think we all subscribe in a general way to the statement that it is desir­able to increase the amount but nevertheless substantial sums have been and are still being expended. For 6 years, 1938-39 to 1943-44, the Government expended substantial amounts on education under the following headings-

Queensland University, Medical School, Dental Hospital, Grammar Schools, &c., State Schools, State Schools Medical Services, Training College, Technical Education, School for Blind and Deaf, Agricultural High School and College, Other Expenditure.

The sum for each year was as follows-

1938-39 1939-40 1940-41 1941-42 1942-43 1943-44

£ 2,112,000 2,204,000 2,214,000 1,994,000 1,863,000 1,960,000

In addition, £783,000 was spent on school buildings, making a total of £13,130,000 over six years on those particular phases of educa­tion, not on the narrow basis set down in our education Estimates tables.

The hon. member for Stanley spoke in a broad-minded way on the subject of educa­tion. He dealt with the principles, ideals, and philosophy of education. I think that is wise in dealing with a vote such as this. He took a broad sweep of education through­out the world. He did not restrict his view to Queensland or Australia. We of the Government party have no complaint with the aspect of world education that the hon. member for Stanley outlined. We are all together in aiming at the one great ideal.

"We believe that the thoughts of man are broadened with the process of the suns.''

We believe that today the world is suffering from wrong education and a wrong system of political economy. The ghastly struggle in which civilisation is engaged today is the result of wrong ideals, wrong teaching, wrong policy, and wrong principle. It is for Queensland as well as other parts of Aus­tralia and of the world to make the best possible contribution towards eliminating wrong education and setting up better stand­ards, higher ideals, and achieving the standard that has been yearned for by poets, pro­phets and philosophers for many centuries. It is a slow and painful process. Men have suffered martyrdom in every generation. For

centuries there have been troubles, difficul­ti<:s, trials and tribulations, and education properly designed will help to eliminate those trials, troubles, difficulties and tribulations of the human race and will bring about the ideals that were enunciated by the hon. member for Stanley.

One great authority on education says-"Education must stand at the helm with

guiding hand. Education tempered with wisdom is the ladder of the ambitious, instrument of the successful, spur to enter­prise, dispeller of ignorance, enemy of fear . . . . giver of truth, director of purpose, patron of invention, mother of science, essence of hope, guide of life, moulder of human destiny and hope of the race.''

That is a definition and purpose with which we can all agree.

The hon. member for Merthyr analysed in a sound, clear and effective manner the curriculum it is intended to use in the schools when the school-leaving age is raised, and post-primary schools are established. He has done a service to the Committee by applying his powers to that analysis. What he has said should direct the attention of hon. members in general to the proposal of the GoverniJllent in ,relation to post­primary schools and the raising of the school­leaving age to 11':' years in particular.

I hope that the debate will be continued along the lines followed by the hon. member for Stanley and the hon. member for Merthyr.

Mr. L. J. BARNES (Cairns) (8.15 p.m.): The Estimates for the Department of Public Instruction are the most important of all. I do not propose to comment upon the sug­gested alteration of the curriculum .. I le.ave that to those who have spent years m scien­tific research. They will be better qualified to deal with it.

I propose to make a few suggestions but first of all I should like to congratulate the department and the, school teachers, who have made great sacrifices during the war. While people in other industries, the waterside workers, railwaymen and others, have be~n earning big money the teachers, like men m other industries, have stuck to their cause gal­lantly. I pay them that compliment.

I am of the opinion that the more we are taught to read and write the bigger and brighter wars we are having. That is only my personal opinion. I once said something to my father about the fact that international financiers cause wars and he replied, ''Son, I will tell you a war that they did not cause. I was once running down the Coral Sea and I witnessed the Coca Cocas and another tribe having a tribal war. They did not even know that here was an international financier, but they had a war, son. You can destroy your cause of war today and another cause will take its place while the people are immoral.'' It has taken me a long time to measure the depth of that statement, but today I fully understand that wars are not caused only by economic circumstances. As I have said

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.j Supply. 1341

before in this Chamber, part cause is economic but that part cause is deeper seated and more intrinsic, it reverts back to morals. We have now a system that provides for the educating of parents but we must realise that the parents of today are the products of the school of yes­terday. And it is here that I wish to congratu­late the Minister on bringing forward the legis­lation in reference to adult education. The parent of today needs moral education just the same as the child. On the subject of adult education may I point out that every night we see hundreds of boys running down George Street to the University~ They must rise at 6 o'clock in the morning, rush to their work and then when their work is finished rush down this street, buy a pie' for their tea, run off to the University, then run home, have a glass of milk and be in bed at 10 or 11 o'clock at night. I think that something should be done so that the employer will have to forfeit some of his time for the purpose of seeing that these children are educated. Naturally they will become great producers for him and indeed I believe that there are a number of employers who are quite willing to do thiR.

Mr. Jesson: They get c,ertain days off now.

Mr. L. J.BARNES: Certain days, but if the hon. member would have a look at this street at night he would feel his blood run cold to think that these children are getting home at 11 o'clock at night and they are up again at 6 o'clock in the morning. They are not yet mature and I believe the Minister can do something about it. I believe that the employers are willing to forfeit a certain amount of their time.

Mr. Power: Most of them are home again at 9 o'clock at night.

Mr. L. J. BA~NES: That may be, but the hon. member Will admit that when we go along this street at 9 o'clock the boys are 0n their way home from the University but they must catch a tram or train to carry them out 3 or 4 miles into the suburbs. It is 11 o'clock and midnight before they get any rest.

When I say that I believe there should be a complete system of education I include not merely the training of the intellect but also the formation of character. This objective requires that, subject to the right of eonseientious objection, ehildren in sehools ·should be instructed in Christian doctrine and virtues, without which Christian education is incomplete and the character of the child cannot be rightly formed. 'That is my own opinion and I quite realise tha't I shall meet a great deal <Jf opposition to it but I have got to that stage in life where I believe that it is essential and the quicker it is brought about the quicker we shall have peace all over the world. Some great men have made state­ments on this subject and you ;vill probably have read that book, ''Man the Unknown,'' by Alexis Carrel, in which he says. '' 'l'hc State can thrl!st legality on people hy force, 'but not moral11y.''

These are words to chew over! If we study our professors and geniuses more we shall discover that they are beginning to realise that it is moral education that the people want. It is a long-felt want. We know that such research cannot be undertaken in the laboratory. You cannot get a yardstick in the laboratory and measure the social effects of morals. I know that quite a few will disagree with me on this matter. I believe that by a true reform of the educational system we should develop a mental outlook favourable to the raising of large families. What is done about it~ Nothing is done in our State schools that is favourable to shaping thought in that direction. Today we talk about increasing the school age to 15 or 16 years and increas· ing domestic science lessons-the Government have already got this on the curriculum­but nothing is mentioned of formulating thought on that matter.

I believe too, that education should be along lines to arrest the drift of population from the country. Our children are not made agriculture minded. The other day I spoke in referehlce to mixed farming', and ,the Minister said he thought there was a great deal of logic in it. There is not much use in our thinking t)lere is a great deal of logic in it unless we find a way of getting it to our school children so that when they reach adult age they ivill not by choosing an agricultural life have to depend for a living on world's parity prices. It is true that the Agricultural High Sc)lool at Gatton is doing good work, but better work can be accom­plished by other educational methods. We have proved that there is a likelihood of the sugar industry's being in jeopardy after the war as a one-crop industry. We do not want our future generations to depend wholly and solely on one-crop farms. We must teach the principles of farming in our schools particularly the thought that the farmer' must grow sufficient food for his family and himself, so that if he cannot dispose of his surplus products hg ivill noJ have to do without food as he has today.

All t)lose points are important. Adequate financial provision should be made to enable every child to pass from the preparatory school to and through the University and to have equal opportunity regardless of race, creed or class, with help if necessary during the period of study. Unless we face these facts in our educational curriculum then our nation is doomed. We know that education can play a big part not only in agriculture but health too. We do not know much about health matters. We know )low to eat and drink and how to read and write. We are taught that, but we are not taught what to eat and drink and what to read and write. As thE- Treasurer remarked on his Estimates, trashy literature is now getting to our people and we have the assurance that it is reaching our children. After the child has left school at 4 o'clock in the afternoon he is faced with the entertainments such as the cinema and radio, and the Press. I believe that the Government ivill eventually be compelled to bring down legislation to deal ivith these subjects because they cann<'t

1342 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Suppla··

expend money in developing knowledge in the schools and allow the cinema or radio to rob the children of its good effects after school hours. I believe that quite a Jot of tra~hy litcratur~ is issued in ignorance. It is ":ntte_n by smcere persons who mistake smeenty for logic.

I believ~ t~at th.e child s;hould be taught a few prmcrples m school. I believe he should be t.aught his obligations as a member of the family. I believe he should be tauaht his. obligations as a member of the State." 1 beheve he should be taught his obligations to the whol~ family of nations. These things are d?ne r;r a very small way today. I believe the t;me IS f~st approaching when we sha.tl :find It essential, if we want our children of today to be the respected citizens of tomorrow to ~ace the facts I have brought under th~ notice of the Committee and not merely talk about them.

I even go as far as to say that we should have a Royal Commission into the educa­tro.n of ~hild;en to let us see where we are gomg. ·" tlnnk that unless we do that we shall go on having bigger, briohter and better wars. b

The expenditure on our asylum buildings today-! am not sure whether the figures are absolutely correct-amounts to 4s. 4d. a head and on universities to 10d. a head. I think we slu:ll h~ve to find much more money for educatron m a few years' time. I think eve;y hon. member on the Government side beheves every wor~ I am saying in this respect. The educational vote is infinitesimal because we have one day to start and educate.

If the school-leaving age is increased to 15 or 16 we shall have to find approximately 12 per c:n~. more teachers and 12 per cent. more ~ml~mgs, wh~ch will represent a big exp8l:ditm:. The time could be used wisely. N ?thmg Is more essential than domestic science, and during that last yt>ar you would be able to teach the girl what to do when she becomes a mother and teach the boy what to ~o when he becomes a father. I inn not talkmg sex because I do not believe sex ~hould be taught in the schools; I believe It should be' taught in the home and I have very good reasons for saying that. When you have a m?ther and father properly educated they Will have no trouble teaching sex to their children in the home. From what I can see unint~lliger:ce is becoming more and more general, m spite of the excellence of our universities, colleges and schools. There are reaso_ns f_o: that. You cannot exactly blame umversitres and schools; the cinemas are part of the cause. It is partly the parents' duty to see that their children have n reasonable moral education. Before T con­elude I would say that I believe the children should be ta'ught to embibe that old biblical philosophy, ''He who is the greatest among you, let him be the servant ol them all.''

Mr. DUGGAN (Toowoomba) (8.30 p.m.): My C?mments on this. vote will necessarily be br1ef. I want to JOin with the Minister and .congrat:tlat~ the member for Stanley on his contnbutron to this debate. At the

risk of transgn~ssing the rule the hon. member for Stanle:y would lay down, however, I want to say that I do wish to offer some praise to the officers of the Department of Public Instruction, beeause I believe it is their due. I do not think the hon. member for Stanley was quite conect in his statement that members of Parliament seek to congra­tulate departmental officers in order to estab­lish a system of good will between themselves and the department's officials for the purpose of gel ting certain concessions granted when representations are submitted by them. I do not believe, howeYer, that we should take advantage of these opportunities in the Com­mittee to urge reforms of a minor sort; they could well be made the subject of written representations from time to time.

We have read recently in many papers, particularly in a series of articles prepared by so-called educat.ionists, of the need for reform of our educational system. I pay this tribute to the Director-General of Education -that he has debunked many of the ideas that have found expression in the Press and over the radio. I want to say that in the Director-General of Education we have a man '"ho has satisfied all the requirements of an educated man. There are few men in the community who have had the advantage of a secondary and university education who find that they are both fluent of tongue and f~cile of pen, but the Director-General possesses those qualities to a very high degree. It is fitting that we should have a man with qualities of this kind because it is from him and those under him that we shall expect a lead in this important depart­ment of administration.

The Minister is qualified to deal with the· political side of the educational system. He· has discharged that responsibility this evening.

I do not agree completely with the hon. member for Windsor that our educationar system can be reformed merely by raising the salaries of our teachers. The problem is far deeper than that. The first requisite for ru teaching service is that we should regard the teaching profession as a vocation rather than a Public Service appointment that will under party pressure or Public Service pressure result in increased emoluments from time t<l' time. We should insist on certain minimum requirements-a higher educational standard~ which has been advocated from time to time by responsible officers of the department, a longer training period at the Teachers' Train­ing College, and a continuing interest in the problems and responsibilities of teach­ing. I was particularly impressed by one passage in the report submitted by the Director-General, and in this regara' I again wish to pay him a small com­pliment. The report contains a considerable amount of matter very useful to members interested in education. I have long deplored the tendency of under-secretaries of the­departments of State to present to this. Chamber a mass of statistical data and infor­mation of very little benefit to members in the· discharge of their responsibilities. What we expect from under-secretaries is that we shall' be given some idea of the functions of the·

Supply. l7 NovEMBER.] Supply. 1343

department so far as technical questions are involved. Matters of policy are very properly determined by the Minister. Of technical developments we expect to read in reports of departmental under-secretaries. In this regard we have in the report the subject of discussion much useful information about trends and changes in education.

For instance, there is much information as to the raising of the school-leaving age. This is not common to Australia or to Queensland. T had the privilege of reading recently a review of what is known as the Butler Bill introduced in the House of Commons sol!le months ago, which was the culminating point .of a campaign of educational reform in England. I think the committee set up by the Minister spent approximately 18 months in collecting and collating information on all .aspects of education. The policy laid down by that report and embodied in the Bill caters for the requirement of the child from :adolescence to the university. In Queensland we have paid much attention to education to ihe age of 14 but beyond that age it depends largely upon the quality of intelligence dis­played by the child or the extent of the family purse whether a child will have a :secondary education. It should be axiomatic in a democratic country that there shall be no limitation on opportunities for learning and ,continuing studies through to the university. That principle is being recognised today in England.

I should not like to enumerate any per­•Centage but I know that a considerable per­·centage of the higher officers of the civil service and the great majority of members ·of the Conservative Government in the Cabinet are recruited exclusively from some ·of the more famous English public schools, the fees at which range from 80 guineas to "250 guineas a year. Obviously that is giving an unfair representation in the highest tribunal of the land to the product of these great public schools. Nobody will deny that these people are educated men-we have had some of their names enumerated by the hon. member for Stanley, men who have become pre-eminent in their particular spheres-but it is not only high academic attainments and ·qualifications that are necessary in the dis­-charge of public responsibility, and I feel that in the same way as a cricket team such as an Australian XI. or an Australian Rugby football team is selected from the best talent in the community, so also in the utilisation ·Of the brains of the community we must see to it that every child who shows promise in the community must have the opportunity of furthering his studies until he attains if it is necessary or desirable a university qualifica­tion.

I was particularly impressed by one passage in the Director-General's report dealing with the general aim of education. He stated that the aim of education was to produce united intelligent Australian citizens actuated by the highest possible ideals of justice, tolerance and fair play, and I believe 'it is the primal responsibility of educationists <1nd Governments to ensure that these prin­·ciples are embodied in a sound curriculum, or

at least that the opportunity of attaining and applying them forms the basis of such a curriculum. If we do not have that objective in mind, I am afraid there is not much prospect for our system of democratic government. In our system of democratic government we depend on the ability of one or other of the major political parties to persuade the majority of the electors that certain political, social, financial and economic policies are in the best interests of the nation.

Unless people who have the responsibility of electing Governments in the democracies are equipped mentally and emotionally to determine this controversial ques-tion on prin­ciples of jus,tice, tolerance and fair play we shall necessarily have a deterioration in our democratic and parliamentary standards. So I believe that if we can remove this important public question from the sphere of patty dis.­putation, jealousy and emotionalism we shall do much to improve the quality of oar civilisa­tion. We have read in the Press of the present Presidential elaction in America, in which all sorts of extraneous. matters 1wve been introduced. We find the sectarian bogy being raised. We find issues being raised that very properly should not form the sub­ject of pul.Jlic disputation, but unfortunately, because the American people, like w many of ouT own people, seem to welcome the oppor­tunity of having these red herrings drawn across the trail and of displaying some form of emotionalism and coming to 3n unwise decision, which they ultimately regTet, these things, are raised.

Th'Ir. Power: The "Kewpies" tried that last election here.

l\Ir. DUGGA:f1: I mentioned that these things were not peeuliar to the United States of America. Of course, the Queensland People's Party and the County Party have a perfect right to attempt to persuade t_he electors of Queensland that it ·would be w1se to install them as a Government, but I believe that if our educational system gives to -our own people that elementary outlook, . those mental qualities which 3l'e necessary 1f we are to build up ouT citizenry, they "ill see the wisdom of retaining the present Govern­ment in p-ower in Queensland.

JUr. Wanstall: Did you mention some­thing about the justice of electoral boun­daries~

lUr. DUGGAN: Electoral boundaries do not come within the scope of this Yote h~t this Government and the spokesmen for th1s Government need not shrink from the responsibility of answering that interj_ection at the proper time. If I remember nghtly, when the Government to which the hon. mem­ber owed some allegiance--

Mr. Wanstall: I did not.

Mr. DUGGAN: At least that Government expounded and implemented .. policie~ _that were in accord with the pohtlcal prmc1ples now held by the hon. m0mber for Toowong: They abolished 10 seats in Queensland, of which seven were Lahon:, R<·ats. 'fhey were

1344 [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

animated by ideals of injustice rather than exp?un~ing and implementing these principles of Justice.

I agree with the Director-Geneml that increasing :;ttention should be paid to a study o~ . the social sciences. That is a responsi­bilrty that should remain a State one. With all due deference to the Federal Minister for Information, Mr. Calwell, who thinks that there will be a desire on the part of State Governments to transfer the responsibility of education to the Commonwealth Government because of his allegation that Governments of the States are eager to hand over the financial liability to the Commonwealth Government, I believe that even if the tax­payer of the State is called upon to bear a greater burden, education should be the responsibility of the State and tlre taxpayer should willingly accept that burden if the ;noney is being spent wisely, especially if it IS spent as a result of policy laid down by Sta.te instrur;rentality. I say that because I believe that m any system of education there must be a very real responsibility. It must be a responsibility discharged by men who can observe these trends on the spot and who ~an take the necessary corrective action if mspectors or school teachers do not conform tO' the high standards that are necessary. A system of decentralisation will, I feel, mean that a large measure of that control will be lost.

I have spoken in a very general way on this question of education. It should be our aim to include in our curriculum as I have mentioned, greater attention to sodial sciences civics in particular. Too few of our childre~ h~~e. a proper understanding of their responsi­lnhtre.s as f_uture citizens. Unles.s they have that m therr early years I am afraid their OVJ?<:rtunities. ~or discharging their responsi­bilities as citizens will be very seriously restricted.

Another aspect of departmental adminis­tration to which I should like to refer is technical colleges. Technical colleges in Queen~land are doing very good work, but there IS ro·om for a considerable expansion of their facilities and operations. The diffi­cult position in which they find themselves is largely the result of the financial stringency that prevailed in Queensland for a number of years. It was not possible for technical colleges to continue to install modern machinery. The result has been, as I have found,c in Toowoomba, where we have the Toowoomba foundry with perhaps the most modern equipment of any industrial establish­ment in Australia, that apprentices are obliged by law to attend a technical college.

They work many hours each week for the Toowoomba foundry, going back to the college on certain nights of t,he week to work on obsolete machines. It may be arguerl that certain elementary principles taught at the technical college can be applied on the existing machines, but I j;hink the depart­ment might well consider the question of allowing the apprentice to do his training in the industrial establishment in which he works. It has been argued by some people

in England who are interested in this ques-· tion that it would be a good thing if com­pulsory education continued until 18 years. of age, and that the student should be paid by the employer to attend certain other inrlus­trial establishments for training anrl experience. I think that by these means we· should find that the apprentice would get a well balancerl training; he would have the· opportunity of going through the most modern workshops in his town or city or· even in his State anrl thereby becoming a. more efficient workman than he otherwise could. I realise that the State cannot possibly compete with private enterprise in the installation of this type of machinery I have referred to but the position might: well be met by some agreement with the employers, the members of the Metal Trades Employers' Federation in particular, to see· if the training cannot be done in the various. inrlustrial establishments by State school. teachers, secondary school teachers and technical college teac,hers.

The Government, through the Secretary for· Public Instruction, recently announced that they have a policy regarding adult education. We know that a Boarrl of Adult Education ha·s, been established and I await with a great deal of interest an announcement regarding· its policy because I believe that we lag some­what behind the other States in this matter. We know, too, that the Government were· forced to intervene regarding the Workers~ Educational Association scheme of adult education in t,his State. It was considered that it had developed along lines that were· very inimical to the State's interests and consequently the subsidy to that association, was withdrawn. The Government have given a good deal of attention to this question. I believe there is need for adult education. My experience in the Army convinces me that too many of our adults remain uneducaterl or at least are educated to a standard far below that required in a modern State. I, as an adjutant of a battalion and a company commander, was obliged with other officers to censor unit correspondence and I found that only a small percentage of the· members of t,he unit were able to express themselves with clarity. My experience as a parliamentarian convinces me that constituents. will walk miles and put up with all forms. of inconvenience to keep an appointment with a member of Parliament rather than express their ideas on paper. I think there· is something wrong with an educational! system when so many adults in a unit find that they cannot adequately express them-· selves on paper. Clarity of expression both in speech and writing is very necessary and' I think we should do everything possible tO> provide for this requirement.

lUr. L. J. Barnes: Some members of' Parliament cannot do that either.

Mr. DUGGAN: I am not giving a disserta­tion on the disqualifications or disabilities; of members of Parliament, but I say that there are many adults who seek this informa­tion. We have the Army Educational Service· for those who require it, and it is doing

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.) Supply. 1345

useful work. Unfortunately, in my view the people who are benefiting most from that form of instruction are those who will need it least when demo bilisatiom occms, whereas the members of the mobile units, the members of the combatant units w;ho are continually moving about engaged in action, are the men who will require the most assist­ance intellectually and from the point of view of trade vocations if they are to be rehabilitated in society. To my mind the men who benefit most from this scheme are those w;ho are stationed in base units where they can apply themselves constantly and repeatedly to their chosen studies. I hope the Minister will encourage the adult education scheme to the extent that the reserves of the Government will permit. I hope that it will not be confined to the metropolitan area but extended to provincial cities so that the people there will have an opportunity of s;haring in this very necessary work. There are so many men in the Army who have had the opportunity of earning promotion if they had the requisite ability that they will not be content to go back to ordinary civil life and be subject to the oppressive restrictions that economic inequality imposes on them. Consequently I feel that many service men and other think­ing elements in the community would welcome a bold and vigorous policy of adult educa­tion and I think it would be in the interests of the nation if such a policy was brought into being.

Mr. Plunkett: How are you going to keep them on the straight and narrow path W

Mr. DUGGAN: It is very difficult for any Government to exercise what is cor.sidered proper supervision in these matters. If we are going to teach political economy or economics we might argue what particular economics shall be taught in those classes. Shall it be the Marxian theory, socialist theories or the principles of the so-called classical economistsW All might come under con­sideration. The Government would be wise in laying down certain basic principles and set down that a person shall have an opportunity to acquire informa'tion and knowledge and of studying various subjects and getting the rudiments or an understanding of the ground work upon which the forms of the political economy will be based. That is our main responsibility.

Mr. Macdonnld: Basic principles. Mr. DUGGAN: That is so. If a person

vdshes to engage in the study of social philosophy or political economics we should encourage him, but that is a question that will require a good deal of attention. Many university professors have been termed reds or pale pinks. There is a general tendency, I believe, for men who teach these subjects to become what is known as left-wing intellec­tuals. I am told that Rhodes scholars who studied modern history at Oxford became Communists, but I am not prepared to sub­stantiate that statement. That was some time af[o. The professor of that political subject might have been a very impressive lecturer

1944-2v

and it may be that a study of that subject caused them to embrace it.

:.ur. J. F. Barnes: That was Professor La ski.

Mr. DUGGAN: That may be one of the professors.

I know the general work performed by the· department and I desire to compliment the· Minister, the. Director-General and his staff on the efficacy of it. Generally it has been excellent work. Any educational system that is provided for the uplift of manhood and womanhood is welcomed by all people in the community. I feel that the money the depart­ment has expended has been expended wisely and when material a'nd men become available· and the department has an opportunity o:f implementing its recommendations our educa­tional system will continue to be in the van­guard of educational systems in Australia.

Mr. J. F. BARNES (Bundaberg) (8.53. p.m.): I could congratulate the Government on their Estimates, I could congratulate them on adult education, but I will not because I know the rot that the children are being· taught today.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. J. F. BARNES: And therefore, with the introduction of adult education, adults. also may learn things that are untrue. I might congratulate the Government on numer­ous things they have done. I might congratu­late them on the fact that their Estimates for this department for the coming year provide· for £2,053,200 whereas in 1882 the expenditure· was £150,000. I will not congratulate the· Government, for the simple reason that they have been in power for 26 out of the past 29 years and have not made one serious step· to educate our children. How many years­do they need to educate the children W The· Government passed allowances for scholarship­holders but if a worker earned 2s. over the· basic wage his child did not get the allowance. How could I congratulate a supposed Labour· Government when they are only masquerading· as a: worker's Government'

I know the reason why these Estimates are only £2,000,000 today. I know why the people· have been kept ignorant. They have been• kept ignorant for no other reason than that the people who control :finance have dictated' to Governments what they wa'nt. In 1832 the education Estimates in England amounted to• £150,000 while in 1932 they were £55,000,000. That means what.W In short, that the people· in 1832 had education equivalent to third-class standard while in 1932 it was equivalent tCJ• a fifth standard in a primary school. But the comparison is there. Education is BO•

increasing today that the people are really starting to think for themselves not beca'use of Governments, but because of the ability o:f the people to think for themselves. As childrell' we were never taught to think for ourselves. I could quote the Protocols on this matter,, but I won't. (Laughter.)

There is one matter that is very serious: as far as I am concerned. I have brought it

!346 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

up here before. It is what appears in the <6th grade of the school arithmetic. By that this Government teach the children that the banks lend their deposits and by that means make their profits.

A Government Member: I thought it would come.

Mr. J. 1<'. BARNES: The hon. member would have to borrow somebody else's brains to think. I brought up this question and I :asked the Minister if he would rectify the matter. The Minister, in answering me, -quoted the 9th Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica. In the question I asked I quoted the 14th Edition for the statement that banks manufactured money and that banks did not 'lend their deposits to any important extent. To get over that difficulty the Minister .quoted the 9th Edition, which is outruled by the 14th. Our own economist, employed and paid by this Government, makes the same statement that I have made, that the banks ·create money out of nothing. This Govern­ment have done nothing to correct the position and are not allowed to do anything to correct it for the plain and simple reason that education is controlled, as it has been down through the ages. Despite the fact that our great grandfathers approached the .authorities for reform, it has finally brought :about an increased education vote from £155,000 to £55,000,000 over a period of 100 _years. By virtue of that increased educa­.tion, the international financiers know the :people are thinking for themselves and will wake up to the international financiers who .are controlling the world; therefore they have to do everything possible to stop the people from thinking on the correct lines.

It is obvious that by virtue of the increased ·education throughout the world we are bring­'ing on our shoulders mostly more misery­gunfire every 20 years. If we were educated that would not happen. Why is it happen­Ing~ It is happening for no other reason than that the international financiers have seen by virtue of the increased education that -they have to control us. How are they going to do it~ They are going to stop us from ·going in the right direction. Everyone realises that something is wrong and people believe there are a thousand ways of curing it, but there is only one way. They will see that the people will take the wrong way. The hon. member for Bowen mentioned that the newspapers exaggerate the coal-strike position. Of course they do. It pays them -to do it, because they will use the strike position to bring about revolution. That is ·why the newspapers exaggerate the coal­strike position. Here in Queensland we are teaching our children something that is untrue; the attention of the Minister has 'been drawn to it and the matter has been sidestepped by the Minister. I followed up my question by quoting opinions for over an

.nom as to whether the banks create money ·out of nothing or not, but the same thing is still being taught to the kids. If we are to _go on with adult education what is going to 'happen~ Are they to be taught the wrong things~ I have asked for books in this

library and nine out of ten I have asked for are not there, although there are 70,000 volumes in the library. Why~ Because nearly all the books I have asked for are on unorthodox finance, and the international financiers see that the literature is not put there so that the people will wake up to them.

Take adult education. What are we going to teach the adults~ A lot of hooey-what they are teaching the children today, and what is the cause of these wars. Here recently the Sex Offences Committee recom­mended that children be taught sex at school. What rot! Children should be taught sex at home, and taught it when they first ask about it, and not deceived as they are. The faith that a child has in the parent is colossal, and when my father or mother told me that I came from a cabbage, and when I found out I never did, that I came from elsewhere, I was horribly disappointed. If children are taught honestly by their parents when they ask a straight question, then there will be no such thing as abuse. If you teach some and not the others then the one who has the extra knowledge comes to school, and the others who know nothing treat him as a king and the knowledge is abused. If you want to teach the children there is no better age than the day they are born. As modern science will tell you, the child will not be any trouble if handled correctly. Children two years of age can speak two languages. I have had that experience on several occasions-of seeing children two years of age who could speak two languages.

If a child is capable of learning two languages at the age of two, is it not capable of learning other things~ Is it not ea pable of being told the truth when it asks ques· tions ~ But because of the pre-Victorian idea that sex shall be taboo it gets its know­ledge by other means. It is taught from childhood to let somebody else do the think­ing for it. That has been so down through the ages, and when I look out of my right eye and over my right shoulder and out of my left eye and over my left shoulder in this Chamber I think it is damned marvellous we are as good a nation as we are.

lUr. LUCKINS (Maree) (9.4 p.m.): There is much to be desired in the reform of our educational system. First of all we must see that children have the best masters possible, and to attract them to the department we must pay the highest salaries. The hon. member for Windsor pointed out, rightly so, that 70 per cent. of our teachers receive not more than £6 a week. But in contrast we find generous treatment by the depart­ment to the members of a string quartet. That is a direct challenge to the masters in our schools. The leader of that string quartet receives £15 a week and the other members £10 a week. That is a very strik­ing comparison between the salaries of teachers and musicians and one that requires an explanation to those men and women of Queensland who have devoted their time to study and becoming proficient in teaching the three R 's, -really the foundation of our educational system.

Supply. [7 ~OVEMBER.] SuppZy. 1347

Mr. Duggan: Do you know what the award is for musiciansW

Mr. LUCKINS: I am not concerned with the award. People are entitled to a decent salary, and if hon. members opposite wish to talk of awards it is time they studied the award for the teachers in the Department of Public Instruction. What they receive ie not in accordance with decent treatment for the services they render the State. I have still to learn that £220,000 of a vote of £2,000,000 is sufficient to cover the defects in the pay­ment on the low standard received by teachers. It is time we took stock of this question, altogether apart from party politics. Head teachers having the qualifica­tions of Class I., Division I., according to the award, up to some little time ago, received the magnificent sum of £420 or £430 a year. Is that a true indication of our desire for the treatment of head masters in State schools, to treat them in that niggardly manner~

Mr. Turner: Do you know what a head teacher receives~

Mr. LUCKINS: I know and the public know today that many of the teachers have been called up for active service. I admire those men who have gone to do their duty for their country, but in this city a large number of school teachers are employed in the department who could be well employed in State schools. The work they do could be undertaken by others in such a time as this.

There are many othe·r matters that require explanation. I have visited many schools and have found that in the lower classes the number of pupils is too large for one teacher to handle. The hon. member for Windsor gave a figure as high as 65 pupils in the one class. In other classes, such as the scholar­ship class taken by the head teacher, the number is between 20 and 24. That is unde­sirable-to ask a junior teacher to take so many pupils and a higher-grade teacher to take so few in these difficult times. I men­tion this so that the Director-General can make a note of it and ask his inspectors, of whom there is a large number, to make a personal visit for investigation.

Another matter that calls for special attention is that, although we in Queensland 'pride ourselves on our educational system for some reason unknown, the department has never seen fit to appoint a lady inspector.

What is the reason for thaH In New South Wales and other States they have lady inspectors of girls' and infants' schools. That is desirable and I should like to know why we lag in that direction.

I congratulate the new Minister on his appointment. I have known him for a long time and his State school experience should stand him in good stead in administering this important department. I know he under­stands that any suggestions I make tonight are prompted by a desire to see Queensland lead the other States in educational matters.

I pay tribute to our teachers, who have made a great name for themselves in guiding

their students into many walks of life. We have had brilliant State school scholars who· have passed through the secondary schools and obtained university education. I regret that the services of these boys and girls have not been acquired by the State. There must be something wrong with our Public· Service when it cannot attract to its ranks students who have passed through the Univer­sity. Many of them have taken more remunerative positions in various parts of· the world. We should encourage these boys and girls to stay here and give service to the· State.

Again, we should follow the lead given by Western Australia and provide free univer­sity education by way of bursaries to the· children whether their parents are poor or rich. The Government should do more to· foster university education for our boys and girls.

Another important point to whieh I wish to· refer is that the Government prohibit the staff of the University from exercising their uolitical rights as citizens. University ~tudents have ealled attention to it. We are living in a democracy and botli universitY' professors and students should have the right to state their political views freely without being subject to control by the Director­General of Education or any other official, .. the Premier or· any member of the Govern­ment. As an indication that the university staff are deprived from exercising their full rights of citi7enship I refer to the fact that they are not allowed to take part in any· political affairs other than the exercise of the· franchise. This savours of dictatorship. We, should be concerned about the freedom of the Press and the individual. Here we find the· Government going into the highways and' byways preaching about the democratic rights of the people and at the same time exercising· this harsh control over the students and" professors in the University.

I appeal to the Minister to see that the· reward for services given to the department is adequate or such as will attract our bril­liant boys and girls to its service. Very niggardly salaries are being paid at the· moment. If this policy is continued the· time is fast approaching when we shall not be able to attract to the staff boys and girls· of the required standard of education for teaching.

I pay tribute to those boys and girls who· are playing such a prominent part in the· defence of our country in the Army and else­where.

The world is moving so rapidly in the matter of education that it behoves us to· do all we possibly can for our children. We should make greater use of the radio and the film to impart a knowledg<J to the chil­dren of, say, history and geography. Today the children are asking many important que~­tions concerning world conditions. The;r little minds are exercised about what 1s taking place, and as Australians. they are intelligent enough to grasp the importance· of the explanations that could be given co~­cerning them. It would be an advantage rf

1348 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.] Supply.

the department could take the lead in making use of this form of education, perhaps in the higher schools to begin with, and then in the State schools. It would enable the ehildren to ;have an understanding of what people are doing in other parts of the world, how they live and the conditions under whicl1 they live. Once having laid that foundation W€ shall reap the reward in the improved -education of the children as to the affairs of the world generally.

Much publicity has been given to the pro­posal to raise tha school-leaving age from 14 to 15 years, but so far no announcement has been made by the Minister, and no pre­paration concerning it has been made in the State schools. No special syllabus has been prepared, and one will be required. Addi­tional school accommodation will be necessarv. I am in favour of raising the school-leaving age. It is a good move and one the Appren­ticeship Committee has dealt with very fully. The idea is that the additional school year will be used to prepare the children for their .entry into professions, hades or callings for which they have an aptitude or for which they may be selected, and this will be a very important way of removing the dangers that previously existed when children left s.chool ·at the age of 14 years, only to be at a loose ·end, and perhaps unable to find useful work. I congratulat€ the Minister on the proposal. It will sarve the purpose of keeping the chil­dren off the streets between the perioii they 'leave school and the time when they are for­tunate Bnough to engage in a useful occupa­tion. 'rhe proposal will be appreciated more by the parents at first, but later its signifi­·cance will be understood by the children too.

I should like to ask the Minister when it can ha expected that that portion of the East Brisbane school taken over for militarv ·purposes will be returned for school pur­posBs again.

Mr. Cooper: Hear, hear!

~Ir. Jesson: Here comes the parish -pump.

lUr. LUCKINS: The parish pump was worked so much by the hon. member that he bas extended himself so much that on the prick of the political pin he would bur't.

JUr .• lESSON: I rise to a point of order. What the hon. member has said in reply to the interjection is insulting to me, ancl 1 a,k that it be withdrawn.

Mr. LUCKINS: I withdraw the remark. 'The hon. member made a rude interjection. I do not like interjections. I have a case to put for my people, and I put it in the best way that I can. I am surprised that the Premier should have introduced the ·subject of the parish pump.

Mr. Cooper: I did not introduce it. !Ir. LUCKINS: Did you not say some­

thing when I said something about local :3chools~

Mr. Cooper: I said "Hear, hear!"

!Ir. LUCKINS: I am sorry.

The CHAIRMAN: Order!

Mr. LUCKINS: Part of the East Brisbane s~~ool was taken over by the military autho­rities. My electorate is the one that has suffered most in this respect. During the war period the two schools in my electorate were both taken over by the military authorities and the children had to go out of the district to be taught. It was some time before I got those two schools back. I still want part of the East Brisbane school to be handed back for its original purpose. The Director­General of Education is using part of the East Brisbane State School to accommodate some of his staff who should be housed at the Central Technical College. I respectfully suggest to the Minister that he see that the same treatment is meted out to my schools in this respect as to other schools in the metropolitan area.

Hon. F. A. COOPER (Bremer-The Premier) (9.23 p.m.): I did not wish to speak on this vote at all but the remarks of the hon. member for Maree called me to my feet. I did say, ''Hear, hear! '' when he mentioned the return of the East Brisbane school to its proper job. It reminded me that he had also made some remarks about raising the school age to 15 years and he wanted to know when that would take place. He either knows when, Mr. Mann, or he just pro·fesses ignorance. All we can say is that it will be done at the earliest possible moment, and the earliest possible moment will be when teachers and school accommodation happen to be available, not before.

Anybody who has given the position any thought knows that there are factors to be considered in the extension of the school age to 15 years. It was proposed to do this by easy stages, which would have brought it in in 1941. As a matter of fact, the proposal was afoot in 1938 and it would have been accomplished by 1941 but for the fact that war broke out in 1939- Not only did it disrupt the educational system of this State, but it has also disruptBd the minds of many people when they think of these things and want to speak about them. It is easy to demand that this shall be done and that shall be done, but I want to impress on the Com­mittee that these things can be done only as opportunity offers. WB can be devoutly thankful that we have been able to do what we have done and lived in security as we have over the war years. It would suit us better to benii our energies to the last phases of the war rather than say, ''Let the war slide; I want this and I want that.'' That is the worst feature of today. The Hon. W. M. Hughes, speaking the other day on certain aspects of Australian life, said that there were ''knockers'' so far as the war was concerned. I say that there are '' kno·ckers'' today who are demanding that there shall be full scope for educational and other facili­ties during the war period when they know full well these things cannot be done and the war effort maintainBd at the same time.

While I am on my feet I want to say one or two things on certain views I hold on education. I do not put them forward as

Supply. [7 NovEMBER.] Suppfy. 1349

being ideal or anything of that kind, but I do believe that there are certain things on which we all agree-and there may be one or two things about which we do not agree. f believe education is the meeting of a demand by the parents of the community that we shall shape and develop the coming genera­tion. We can only shape and develop the coming generation in accordance with the ideals that we hold. We can carry on educa­tion only so far as we ourselves are educated. We cannot teach more than we know- That surely is fairly elementary. All the education that we have comes to us through the experi­ence of the educated section of the com­munity. That may be a lead. I want to say one or two things afterwards that might seem to reflect on that very wise decision that has been made by very many people.

I believe that as we train the teachers se. the teachers will teach. Therefore the important job of the State is to see to the proper training of the teachers. That is essential. Possibly in many ways we have failed in the training of the teachers. We have had various methods of training. I can remember when I have been besought on all sides from all centres in my electorate to gain for people the admission of their children to the Teachers' Training College.

We have had boys and girls in abundance offering for the college at certain periods of recant years. Then \Ye have had those periods >~·hen other avenues of employment have been more attractive anrl there has consequently been somewhat of a shortage of suitable boys and girls for the 'l'eachers.' Trainina College. I hold it is a very important job-the select· ing of these teachers-and I am delighted to know that my experience of the Department of Public Instruction taught me that the department picked the boys and girls not only because of their educational standard but for various other reasons.. J\1en well learned in the art of teaching, men who can sum up a boy or a girl in an interview, report on his or her suitability for the job· and all things considered I must admit th~t in the face of other matters the selections have been very, very good indeed.

Notwlths·tanding what may ha1·c been said about the teaching professio'n in Queensland, the st:mrlard is a good standard.

Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. COOPER: I believe the majority of the teachers teach well. I do not know if the fact has bean mentioned or not, but I know that a careful examination of scholar­ship results would show a relative percentage of scholarships come from the one-teacher sch?o.ls as from the big schools where ·oppor­tun.ltles are present for tuition by specially trallled teachers. I admire the splendid work done by the teachers in one-teacher schools. I heard one speaker tonight decry the fact that teachers had to go wherever they were sent. That is part and parcel of the teacher's job. He knows when he enters the department that he is expected to go wherever he may be sent, and somebody has to go

to the far distant places. I have heard it said it is part of the education and training of the teachers. I believe it to be wrong to keep teachers in the one place for ever and ever; I believe it to be wrong to shift them too hastily.

Mr. Macdonald: Or any public servant.

])Ir. COOPER: Or any public servant. I believe the teacher should get to know hi~ children for sufficiently long to understand them and educate them in the best possible way. One of the things I should say we ought to have at the back of our minds­probably at the front of our minds-in the matter of teaching is the fact that we have to live. We have to live the life we have chosen and we have chosen to live the com­munity life; therefore I take it the educa­tional system should be for the bettering and the improvement of the community life. That may give somebody the impression that I am all for the State. That is not so. The State is something that has. been created by the people. The people themselves have created the State and the creator is always greater than the created. I do not believe that the people of the State should be the absolute and abject subjects of the State. I believe that the State should be the servant of the people, but we can make the State the ser­vant of the people only if we see to it that we thoroughly understand what the State is and what the job nf the State is.

The question is frequently asked: for what purpose is education~ And if you consult some of the people who say they know and who have no hesitation in telling the world they know, they will tell you that it is for the benefit of the child. I believe that to be correct to a certain extent. We must educate the child for his own benefit that he ma'y be able to take his place in the State that we desire him to take, but the unfortunate thing about it is that so many people think that education is for them­selves-themselves alone-and that they have no responsibility to the State in any way whatever. I believe we have to help the child to help himself, and we have also to remember that we must help him to eliminate his selfishness. I believe one of our greatest defects today is our selfishness. ~f we can eliminate selfishness and see to 1t that we live the better and the greater com­munity life I believe the wider the spread of education will be, the more the oppor­tunities for it will be.

Sometimes I wonder where this cry for education comes from. "\Vhen 1ve look at it seriously, who is it that is demanding the better education of our people today~ I say it is the mass of the people. After a 11, there are certain things we learn at school. We learn a little history. "\VlJCther we remember it or not does' not matter very much.

In the teaching of history there are certain things we must keep in view: cause, the occur­rence, and result, or effect, and if we can view matters that ha've taken place in the years gone by, see the cause for these things and result or the effects, then ;history may teach us

1350 Supply. [ABSEMBLY.] Supply.

some lessons. For many years, the greater part of my life, I have been greatly concerned with what I might call the industrial section of the community, the people who do the work of the world, and when I cast my memory back and remember what I have gone through and the lessons taught over t;he last 60, 70 or 80 years, as we can learn from the books in the library, not­withstanding the remarks of the hon. member for Bundaberg, I :find that in the upward surge of the people this demand of the people for greater opportunity to live a decent community life, the repression came from whom W From the ignorant or from the uneducated~ No. From the people who were supposed to he the educated section of the community. When t;he trade-union move­ment was struggling to make itself felt in the community that it might better the whole community between 20 to 30 repressive measures were passed that the trade-union movement might be kept down or entirely suppressed. The trade-union movement was for the betterment of the whole community and so effective has it done its work in education that it has educated the whole of the community to t;he knowledge that the higher education is the better thing for it.

We have even educated the educated people. Today no-one opposes trade unionism openly. Nobody opposes the right to people to amalgamate to benefit themselves and to benefit the community that we might have a better education. I remember that in this striving for a better education and a better life, something that was known as the Tail' Vale decision-! believe it affected some railway workers in Wales and it meant the repression of the trade union movement-was upheld by all the judges, the Privy Council, the House of Lords and by a Royal Commis­sion. All these people, the judges, the mem­bers of the Privy Council, the House of Lords and the Royal Commission, were men of the highest standing, judging by their educational attainments, yet we have seen that the Government of the day in England in 1906 could not put into effect the report of the Royal Commission t;hat the Taff Vale decision be upheld by legislation. They could not possibly do it because the upward surge of the people to higher education was so dominant and so impelling that the allegedly educated section of the community could no longer repress those who had not the advantage of education. Later there was the Osborne decision on the same lines but I will not dwell on that. This great urge for better education, voiced now by everybody, taken up by this one and t;hat one and some­body else, is something with which they can pose before the public as being in the very van of the upward march. I am pleased to see them there, we are pleased to have them right in the very van of this upward march of democracy. This desire that we might know better how to live and give to our children better opportunities than we had in our days, this, I say, can come only from an educational system that• will give an appreciation of the community life that teaches us to live not only for ourselves but for others. In the curriculum of the

future I hope that we shall be able to see at least one thing and t)lat is the elimination of the selfishness of the past-so many of us striving simply for ourselves and letting the rest of the world go hang. I regret that it can be seen on all sides and in all places­that very many people who have received from the community all the community can give in the way of education are the very people who have the least respect and the least regard for the community.

I do not need to stress that over-much, but when I think what has been done by the struggle of the people who pay the taxes and shoulder the burdens of industry to improve the education of the select few and then see so few of the leaders of the State coming from that section I wonder if the money was spent in vain. I do not believe it was. I believe we have impressed on the whole of the community the fact that after all it is the whole of the community that matters. I have no objection to the old school tie. I believe that in the days that aTe gone there were two views. One >Yas the shorter view-'' What am I to do tomorrow for my living~" That was the view of possibly 90 per cent. of the people.

Then there was the longer view-'' How may I conduct myself throughout my lifeW Am I to have all the advantages, all the good things that have gone~" I do not ~ean riches and wealth, but all the good thmgs that people have taught us as the world has progressed. That is the longer view, and I pay the compliment to what are known as the great public schools of England that they iliil t.h~t iob n~.rtir.nl1u•lv well. '!'hew Vll.VA

~s-a st~"lla"ard in the matter of morals." They gave us a standard in the matter of ~he higher valuation of life that was worth while. 'rhey were antagonistic, and in some quarters still are. But the day has arrived when there must be an amalgamation of the shorter view and the longer view. We still have to teach people because they have to live tomorrow and carve for themselves a living in this world. At the same time we can let the~ know that they are part and parcel of this great commu~ity,. that they ha':e as .much right to the mhentance of the higher Ideals and greater aspirations and the longer view of life as anybody else. When we can amalgamate those two views, the view for tomorrow and the view for the years to come, we shall be getting somewhere near the ideal education of the people of the country that will lift democracy to the heights that it mu~t yet attain if it is to maintain its place m this world.

I know the educational system of this State is not perfect. I know that it. has, as all things have, a tendency to get mto the groove, but I do know that with encourage­ment from the people who understand. the broader view we shall gradually but defimtely and permanently improve the educational system of this State so that we shall allow the State to function as it should, giving to its people the greater security . that li~e demands. We can give that secunty only If we give all that we can in the better educa­tion of those who are to carry on this State

Supply. [7 NOVEMBER.] Snppiy. 1351

in the days to come. We can do that by being earnest and sincere in our desire to see that the educational effort is spread over the whole of the community as best we can spread it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. POWER (Baroona) (9.42 p.m.): At the outset I congratulate the Director-General of Education and his staff. Like the hon. member for Toowoomba, I am not congratu­lating him for the purpose of seeking any favours. I have always received the fairest possible treatment from his department. All eases that I have submitted have been dealt with on their merits. I regret that the hon. member for Maree introduced party polities into this matter because I intend to discuss the question in my usual placid manner without resorting to party polities.

I was amazed when the hon. member for Maree said, in reply to an interjection when he was advocating increased allowances and classifications for school teachers, that he was not concerned with awards. The Government of the day must be concerned with awards, even though the hon. member for Maree is not. It is not the function of this depart­ment or the Government to deal with matters affecting awards except through the Indus­trial Court or with industrial unions.

I, too, advocate free education for children, but I must remind the Committee that the hon. member for Maree sought election to this Parliament as a member of the Moore Government. He supported that Government who threw thousands of men and women out of employment, who reduced wages of school teachers, who outlawed school teachers from the Industrial Court and gave them no opportunity of stating their case before the court. He was also a member of a local authority that prevented many of the children of the workers from obtaining secondary education. He supported a policy of retrenchment and dismissal of employees of the Brisbane City Council while he was there, and as a result of his actions many children in the State were denied a secondary education. It ill becomes the hon. member to come into this Chamber and speak with one voice when we know from his actions over a period of years what his attitude towards the education of the people is. We also have it from a very reliable authority that he knew as well as the members of the Government did that the Government pro­posed to reclassify the teaching staff of the State.

I take this opportunity of saying that the teachers have done an excellent job and worked very hard. Their work has been made more difficult by the fact that a num­ber of our teachers are in the fighting forces. Does he suggest that the war effort ehould be held up and these men taken from the fighting forces, so as to increase the teach­ing staff and thus reduce the number of pupils in each class~

llir. LUCKINS: I rise to a point of order. These people were not in the fighting forces; they were in work in Brisbane.

The CHAIRMAN: I ask the hon. member for Baroona to accept the explanation of the hon. member for Maree.

lUr. POWER: I accept his explanation. I should like to know how any teacher could be engaged in another job because these people are in a protected industry. If they had been released, I want to know what responsible officer of the Government Teleased them to be put into other jobs. I shall direct a question to the Minister tomorrow seeking information on the point. There are about 1,200 teachers in the fighing services, and because of that greater pressure of work has been thrown on the remainder, who have car­ried out their job very welL indeed. It is all right to get up in this Chamber and give lip­service to an idea, but what is required ie a practical suggestion. Although criticism has been directed against the Government and the department, not one constructive suggestion has come from the hon. member for Maree that would improve the situation. He has asked that a certain part of a school in his electorate now used by the military authori­ties should be returned to the department, but where would the military authorities go if that was done~ The Minister for the Army has stated more than once that these schoo·ls would be returned to the Government for school use again at the earliest possible opportunity. I believe that there are many people in the Maree electorate with sons and daughters in the fighting services who would not thank the hon. member for the sugges­tion that the Army should be thrown out to make the school available to the children. As a matter of fact, if the Army was not in occupation of various schools throughout the State, perhaps the .Japanese would be here today and the children would not be in the happy position they are in now. In times of war difficulties must be encountered and sacrifices made, but if there are any suggestions to be made on the point let them be constructive.

I know that members of the Q.P.P. were snooping round the various Government departments seeking information as to the proposed classification that was to be given to the teaching service. I know that one of the snoopers sought information from a friend of mine who replied, ''I am not prepared to give it to you. I shall await the decision of the Government whom I have always loyally supported.''

The suggestion was made too that female school inspectors should be appointed. I have no objection to that. However, we must remember that the present inspectors have had experience with mixed schools, they have a thorough knowledge of the working conditions, and they are highly quallfied to do this work. I do not think that you would get many applications for the position of female inspec­tor because they would have to travel in th~ remote parts of the Statjil and llve under conditions that would not be congenial to female inspectors. Therefore I do not think it would be wise at this stage to appoint female school inspectors.

1352 Supply. [ASSEMBLY.]

The hon. member's talk is simply a matter of flying kites for the purpose of seeking some political support. It seems to me that it is well that the people should know the attitude of these people on these matters.

A number of improvements educationally have taken place as the result of Government policy. I am not one who thinks that our system is perfect by any means, but if anyone has a constructive suggestion it should be put forward solely from a non-party point of view, because education affects our future citizens. There should be an alteration in the curriculum that would compel some of our children who desire to sit for the scholar­ship examination to take subjects that may be of no value to them. They should be subjected to a psychology test. They should be questioned by the head teachers on their future ambitions. The teachers could say to Billy Smith, "What would you like to be later on in life~" Billy Smith may say that he would like to be a carpenter. Another boy may express a wish to become a plumber, or an artisan of some kind. There­fore the elementary principles of these subjects should be taught wherever possible in the schools. As a matter of fact, the principle is operating in some schools already. In the electorates represented by the Trea­surer and myself is a domestic-science school where the girls are among other things taught to cook. The majority of females have no desire to remain unclaimed treasures but have ambitions to enter the bonds of holy matrimony, consequently they are eager to learn the subjects taught in such schools. A number of boys may want to learn tin­smithing, some may desire to learn carpentering, while others may desire to learn plumbing. Therefore I hope that some provision will be made in the scholarship syllabus to give boys and girls an opportunity of following their bent. I make this suggestion to the Minister but I realise that it is rather unwise in these days to make any drastic change in existing practice.

These are matters that should receive some consideration later. When the school-leaving age is increased to 15, quite a number of alterations must take place and certain improvements will have to be made to school buildings. I shall deal with that on the vote for the Department of Public Works. In conclusion, I congratulate the department and the Government on their action in increasing the scholarship allowance. We have been recently informed it is proposed to make increases in allowances to successful candidates living at home and those living away from home. Those improvements. are worth while and they represent another step in the advance made and the help given by the Government to the children of this State,

At 9.55 p.m., under Standing Order Nu. 307 and Sessional Orders, progress was reported.

The House adjourned at 9.56 p.m.

Dairy Yroduce, d!:c., Bill.