Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 3 SEPTEMBER 1913

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

'!116 [ASSE:\1BLY.] Que.-tior:s.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.

WEDNESDAY, 3 SEPTE:llBER, 1913.

Tho SPEAKER (Hoa. \V. D. Armstronr:-, l[,ockyer) took the chair at half-past 3 o'clock.

QGESTIOKS.

IXT£Ri:~T ON LOAN~ FRO)[ THE C01DIOX­WEALTH.

:'lk GILLIES (Eacham), for )Ir. "f i1:elly, asked the Chid Scorcny-

" 1. Havo tho intcrc",t charge on the monovs lotncd to thL' StaL b·· the Con­mon'\:ealth, which a fe' n1on~h.:; ago '.\'Cr

considered cxc J;:. -i \-e alld inordinately harsh, l'._l\'1 reduced by 11r. Cook's ~\d­lninistration?

"2, II<..s tho Commonwealth Prime }1iLi&~_c.: si"~_liflp,-1 any of his int_;ntions OR the n1aUor, and is he :1grccabJe to grant rene1.vals for long p-criq ls ?''

Tho PRE~HER (Hon. D. F. Dc-Jnm, 'J.dry) replic·-l-

" 1. No. "2. ~o."

QuALITY oF CoM, FRo<~r 0.\KE':.

illr. KIR\VAX (Bri.·i ,,. ) asked tho Sccre· tary for Railv.,Jys-

" 1. Is he a\~ L1'C that cell for '~-~us~ of tho department is lc cded from the mine at Oakey, and that th" trucl<s are not wcig h€d or checkc , i ?

[Han. A. H. Barlow.

"2. I:3 he al;,are iha~ frequent conl­pb.ints b,, e bee l recci,-<-cl frum driYeiS rc ·i arcling the quali1 y of t ~is coal ?

" 3. Has the of:;eial to whom thc·sc re­ports at Toowr dnlba Ylcro for•xarcL2d made any r 'rJn on the quality of the c· .J ancl the consc'c:tu:mt Jato runr:ing of trai1:.s; if so, i, any a..:otion contemplaLd ?:'

The SECRETARY FOR E.UL\YAYS (Hon. \V, T. Pa;ct, Jiad.cty) ,. ;llicd-

" 1, 2. m.:.d 3. Xo; but inquu1rs v.:ll hJ IT'H~ nt once."

}lr. I\::IR,\V _\N ns· .'2.-1 th~ Raih'.D'---

hr

" 2. r:-C'nn narnc of Lt. .. h a.rnount p~tid '?

p.r 'nd

'· t. 'The na1:n:: viousl" l't_'C2ive.-l did not n ',j v· tho runns for Est?"

w:,:, h r·rc· :--.-':::nent: r_nd

··ti"'-.-ll~ u~s r~nc1 the! 1 c.ii !he

The 8ECHETARY FOR RAIL\Y"lTS repl.icd-

" 1. ' Courier' and 'Ob·<:rvcr,' ' Daily Mail,' 'Daily Standard,' 'Tcle,;raph,' • Truth;' 'Sun,' '\Yortcrr,' 'Pa~:·iot,' 'Fal~11crs' Gazett(',' 'Queenslar1d Grazier,' 'Grazing Farn1er,' 'The People,' 'Logan and 'tlbcrt Advocate,' ' Farm Bulletin.'

"2. 'Courier' and 'Obc· eYer,' £45; ' Daib- ~lail,' £30; ' D; ily S an nard,' £3~; ''l'c>L-gnph,' £30; "rrnth,' £27 lOs, ; ' Sun,' £25; ' 'Worker,' £25; Pat­riot,' £6; ' Farmf rs' Gazette.' £3 17s. 6d.; 'Qucrm.,land Grazier,' £5; 'Graz­ing Farmer,' £2; ' Tho People,' £12 lOs.; 'Logan and Alb,rt Advocate,' £3; • Farm. Bulletin,' £6 fd.

"3. 'Que-on.- land Freemason! ' JHes· sengcr,' 'Baptist,' 'Church Chronicle,' 'Congrt ,~'ationali~t,' '~lc~hodist Loader,' 'Alliance ::-; c'Ys,' ' Australian Christian \Yorld,' 'Gcrn1an Papf ' 'Catholic ..._<\dyo­c ;:;,tD,' '_:\_ge,' '.IUorcton 1\tlail,' 'Stf'r,' 'Herald/ 'Figaro,'., Pink L .... n;' for rea~ cons of economy!'

PRICKLY-PFIR SELECTION LEASES.

Mr. 2\IuRGAX (.lim·i/1-,) c;kcd tho S·'ct'e· tar:' fr" Public L'lnclc.-

" L Is he correctly ro;Jortecl in a p:tra· graph appearing in to-eLl-~. 's • Brisbane COurier ' in rc~pcct to tho prop·:scd amc·1ducnt of tho Land Act r.-. prickly­pc Lr scJe.:tions?

,; 2. If so, vr~1y has he L1ckcd do1\?ll on his er.~phati:; pronli·.o n.t(l2 ::o ~he recent d(pu'·~·,hon of pric:~ly-l}Ol.f ~ lectors, v,-hon he t..~--:flnit· lY f-,' utcd t11<? Govc~·nms_:n~ IYO'.:tld intrc :uce 1-h.:.::; '<'::·:ion nn un1cndn1.:"nt to thA Act io p;inl full c .. ect to the follm\'­ing rt'solu,ion :-

That ' The Land Act ar-:.cnd rl in r{_•gnrd to ing with prickly-p· r proyidt~ for a l :'_e of i -"'-·en: years jn~·,-.acl of fifteen years, R at prescrt. tllh.:, in r ll cr. ·.c'1, at least {l\ce y0ars be allo>Ycd at a peppercorn rental before payn1cnt conu .. 1ence.s ':"

[3 SEPTEMBER.] Great Western, etc., Bi!l. lllT

The SECRLTAEY FOR PL'BLIC LA::XDS {!Ion. J. Toh,lil', 'l'cc l,·oomb,£) replied-

''1. and 2. A Bill to exteLJ the terms of the loa.:;os of pricldy-ponr selections will 1- introduced this ~ 0s~ion if ti1ne l-'~rn1its.''

Mr. BO\V::'I1AN (Fortitu 7e ru':cy) asked the Sc•cretary for Public \Yorks-

·• l. \Yhat are thr n nncs c f n1c1nbers of the V.~ork>_,rs' Dwellil1gs It)anl 't

" 2. \~-h t rc1nuneratio·1 do they ro-cei YC ror t:1 jr rricc..oi ~"

" 2. Chainnan, £100 per annum; rncn1ben:, £75 per annum."

FRIE:'\DL Y SOCIETIES DILL.

THIRD RZ:ADIXG.

On tho Pl~BLIC

motion of the SECRETARY FOR Il\STRCCTIO~\' (Hon. J. W.

Dhir, I"•c• ich), this Dill v _:s r_ad a .hird time, and ordr zed h be rc ~UL.ed to the LJ ,i:Jcti;,-e Council by n1e:.. ,at;o in the usu~l fo;._'ln.

SOUTHERl'; DOWKS RAILY,'AY TILcFFIC.

On tl 1 1notion o£ 2\Ir. G. (1rarz'·ick), it \Y~ fm:1uallJ t~~ero b- 1- lJ. upon the table <.~lo l-lolEO a n.:turn sho\Ying-

" 1. Tho an1oun. 1 paid in and farc9 (shovdng coachi:nt:_' anci r, tz:ly) on traffic inY u.rds from the fo!lowi~.g sec;·io:~ of dur.~ :1g the periods t"tated:-

( ) \'\'" arv. ~ck St 3. tion-F1~orn 1012 iuolu•ive;

1884 to

(b} JHain Southern Lin:-.. ::\.11 t ·.ti{':ns fro~ .. l ~· !illhill to C~i£ton, inclusive, dudng the sa.n1e period;

(:) I(ilh.Lle:~ Branch Linc-~'-lll stations during :he .~an1e poric-1;

(d) l' I a in S-... _ thern Line-... 'ill Jations Lvn1 ::lor!an Park to \Vallangarra during tho c,amB period;

(c) Scnth-Wc,tern Line-Al! Jtations frorn _._l} n to 2~.·) miles, fr8Ll 1904 to 1912;

(f) I,Iarnale Branch Line-All stations, from opening to 1912.

" 2. What proportion the through traffic-that is, traffi,J to Brisbane or be­Yond and vice vcrs.j-bore ;:ppr·Jxiinately to the toUt! traffic."

GREAT \VESTERN RAILWAY ACT AME::\'D:'dE~T BILL.

LEAVE TO SELECT COMMITTEE TO TRAVEL.

Mr. BOOKER (Wide Bay), in moving-

" That leave be given to the Select Committee on tho Great Yvcstcrn Hail~ wav Act Ame!1dmont Dill to moYe from p!U:cc to place, and, while aL·ent from Bri:,bane, to sit during any sitting of the House,"

said: I haye no con1punction in 1nodng this motion, for I am quite satisfied that it will ap;1cal to the majority of memb:.rs of the House, if nCJt to ali tho members, ii they have lY::tl~ the evidence, n1orc partlcularl.:- tho r~port of the . L;on;nnissicner for_ Raih\·~ys, \.'llH:h \, _,_s lL~_nn nett to the l LH1 ntc ·. 1~l8..t cyiJ,_ nc1 ) CJvering tho report, v-arrant.s the widest and ful!e,,: information being (;'iven to this on that specific question, the ~l~l~jtion '\'·hich the Sdect Committee n. u to Tlw c-, idenc-' 'ddu·:?d makc:o fc ~· , :> t ·on o ... • ~.c co!n-ni.ttc ·' nnd au.,hority frorr1 ·Lis flou~c.: to mflke further inyc· ,.igat~·Jns. dm:ir0 tv discu::,;:, thi _ rno­tion strict>;- \v.ithin the lines of ins~ructions from the l:Iouso to do:tl ,.,-ith two specific quc:3t.ioilS, but before doing so, I n1ay say that u::.. '\Ye \\ent into the qu.·.,tion and th0 evidenc3 Y\~ns radduccd, so we found thv.t it ' ,-s in1 .... >0~';iblP, to a certain C'lftent, not to ttd\:e in vital cond.itions that bcro upon the Llain i · w, tho i~.-.;uo \Yith ·which \YO had to de .. l. .A.nd hon. nlelnbors, \Vh~n reading i.lJ t cYid·.:..nc , a~1d the CoLu·duioner's report .,-ill, I am certain, come to that conclu3icn, and if we to LOLl<' cdent ,,-ent beyond om· .authority in st:cu1·ing evid'"1Ce, I , 1,y it 1vas in tho best intcresi3 of the SL te. and in this

-nc-ct I h·~:oc;f ·Lhe (·<JE:nrnt; '.ce ·~.~:iil be lL r­doitecl. The fh·>t noint in the cvicle:1cc that I lUL take np i':l fhat giYen b2~ tho Con1mis­~ioncr for Railwa; ::;. IV1r. Grant \·as putting the que• :ions to him, and said-

"11:1 . ..."1. \if-ness Lf1T!.·_·i ltlur1 ~ y at E ·on1· n "a f".j~ :s :-' T· ... e ccur_try 'Irc~n TL-tr:;;,o:nindah l'J Bulloo Do\vns ·was not baci for v. ool-growing, but it \, :;s o.-orrun \ ·ith ra:·bi:·-:;.' I do Eot knov; ·:h(ther tLe rulJ',its are bad at tho present time.

may no: be bad now, but that \VL n1aCa h>ro years ago. A

lo' mrry have bo· n destroyed and a lot { f country 1nay ha Ye bh,n fenced since then.

"n;. It ;, said that tho rabLits in that p.~rt of tho c,,untfy generally are de­er _::as~n::, >Un1, as the evidence is to the c.:r.Jct that it is goo 1 sheep countr.:, would not ths Lallie you would _;B~ from that lY·i~t c.f iho ccuntry b,) grc',~ Jr thJ..n the trrt~>ic you are likely to get by diverting i1l0 rail '.,-ay further north ? I could not sc.y that. That v auld be a matter for further inYestigation."

Now, that is '" P·}int I v.ant to emphatise. The Commission.Pt himEdf, ,_-.'ho is respon­sible to the :\iinistor in rmttters of this kind, states tl:id further inv•. •tigation should be m~dc-thcct they Ehould go deeper into the que· tion at issue-and that further investi­gation mig :ct prove something else. And that is the element in the evidence, if hon.

Vr. Booker.1

lll8 Great W estc rn Rail ,my [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

members will read it, right thnmgh the <:hapter. Then the Commissioner goes on to rep!:- to :Y1r. Grant, who asked-

" 115. I am only going on tho evidence contained in this document. Here is the -evidence d a Mr. Irvine and a Mr. ::\>l"ye··court, who speak very high!:; of that COUll try."

That is the country down in the sc-uth­\vest'=.'rn corner. JJ1r. Grant's question con­tinued-

" By divcr~ing the line further north, you will not be leaving the flooded country, but will be subject to the same disabilities as if you took it to Tober­morv? '!_'hat is the evidence we have got, "but it is likely that the Chief Engi­neer, who has gone into the question of br-idging and .·o on, and Mr .• \mos will be able to give your more information on that point. I am sure you all recog­nise the -ci,i,fficulty of getting reliable in­form.\ twn.

That is another point. In dealing v. ith this question, we found that the neatest dilti.culty was to get reliable information, more par­ticularly in connection with the south-·,yeetern corner-that gTcat big territor: . In connec­tion with that area we were ablD to get only one v. itness whoso ovid< nee was direct and practical. That was the evidence of Mr. Donaldson, w:w has been for many y£ars identillcd with the south-\l·est corner. He was tho onlv -,,-itnE .s available in Brisb-ane who could give any-bing like deL.nitD and cle,-,r evidence, and his evidence was of such a nature as ~-l influence us in making appli­cation to the House for permission to go out there and get first-hand .knowledge, so that we would be in a po~ition to give to tho House further <md more valuable informa· tion than the House already has.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That is, the cornn1ittc·~ de~ir,· s to traYel '?

Hr. BOOK:Lll: Th:ct is so. I am pointing out thc<e facts to sho-; the nocecsitc for tho con1n1ittco to travel fl·orn pl,]_CG to place tJ get the necessary evidence to submit to the House to ena b]--, the House to decide upon a clear and d' finitD -attitude, and I take it that this is a point that clearly indicate' to evorv hon. mnnber that thec'e i a. e-reat necc~sity to go there and got information that :-ou can only get in that tvrri:ory. ThB Commissioner said distinctly- ·

"I am sure you ell recognise the diffi­culty of g< tting reliable information."

'Then 01r. I-Ian1ilton ~)Ut thL que;;tion-

" 1&7. There is no doubt it is impos­sible for an;pne to form an opinion from tho evidence given before J'.;U, r\Tr. Evans, because everyone says h'o o vn country is the best, and everyone else's country is no g0od and is c<Jvered with rabbits and din,;oes and other pests? That is so. I think you gentlemen will be able to come to a. satisfactory conclusi.on when ;;ou go over the ground yourselves."

I am coming to the identificati0n of the Commissioner's report with the business we had in hand. When Mr. Evans was giving evidence before tho c0mmittee, I put some

[Mr. Booker.

lPading questions to him, and he replied that a certain report had been submitted to tho Minic-tcr. I ac,ked the question-

" 150. \Ve should make application for thctt rep0rt straight away? "

And thfl Commissioner's reply was-

" I w:mt vou to under,tand that it was a report" that I was not a:-•kcd for. The 111a.tter ,~.as discussed between IllY­self and tho Chief Engineer about ei(;·h­tcon rnonths ago, and tho rna.ps were prepared about a, year ago; but I did not think the timo was opportune to make an:' repoc't just then. \Yh. n this matter of tho deviations cropped up, I thought it was the time to make it, and I thought it was worth considorc<,tion, at all CYC!llc."

That identifies tho Commissioner's r•,port with the busine .s that y,e had in hand, for, as we v:ent into the matter, we found that son1~ portions of the Comn1i',~ioner's re1 <nt bear ycry largc1:,~ and rnm t in1r: H't··(ntly upon the direct quoc,tion that W<' ·,yero there to deal with-that is, the deviation-o,nd natur­ally, as it Lears so closely upon the question at issue, we 1,. ,lnt the perrnission of tho I-Iou.-_e to move f•om place to place so that c may be able to confirm the opinion that has been formed, or the evidence th~t >>as adduced, c.nd rc pm t to the House accordingly. That statement makes it so clc,ar that the busin~ss ' c had in hand is so closely allied with the Commissioner's rc11ort and so wrapped up in the vd1Dlo Cl_Ut 1-iDu tha~, it -warrants us in coming to the House this afternoon and a king tho Home to g·ive the Committee per­mi _sion to move from place to place. 1'hen we have: ;\h. Bell's evidcn,e, and he c Jrrcs b;;:Lck to that iuentic al circumstJ.nce t;-:_at y·e are so anxious about. l\h. BrJll points out in his cviJ a certain thing that, r=-erson-ally, I feel o important that I believe \:V-G can only get the {.,'.ridence v_~ \1 Hl by going over that p trticular territory. Th·Jn ,,,.c lnve th- evidence of n1r. Ames, ,,nd I think tho Houec, will agreq ,,·ith nw tha" thoro is no ofdcer in the Raih--ay D'-'> wt­mcnt who can·i,, the < :mfidence of the House 't:td the country more so than docs ~'-·.l'. Ames, and cviJclcc given b: l\Ir. Amos must appe:1l to hon, member .. , This que.-tion ',''a put to :\1r . .Amos-

" 214. By the Chairman: \Yh.tt in tion-, \Yore ~- o l ,, or~ .. ing under? goG both writtP'L .ld verbal instruc~ion.:>, b.1t the,> were principally vc"bal, hom thJ Ilini.- :'r io start fro1n : '1" viC'init~· of Hungc·-.·ford t nJ e-x , to Cloncn rr · r nd rrlso

' 100 ountry goner

oi constru:~tinn ~- also with the

S0ll19 tirne 1'lCCOtllir g line right through

~1r. An10S1S instructions ..-,..-ere specific

iar as he hr•d to r •port upon thc.t line with t'-le YiciV of it becominc: a tra•s­contin ·ntal line. rihe Select Con1ini: ~ ~e 1 on bchnJ£ of ~-.~h~ch I a-._n TJea' lng ns . hainnan. has to d~al with that spr cific question in so far that t~1e t\YO CJ.llf"tions are bound up together, and any alteration of the cri,sinal proposal, no ,matter how small it is, bean upon tho whole quostion. That is vn,Jtb·r reason why the committe€ rhould have the widest scope to arrive at some definite cun-

Great We-tern Railway [3 SEPTEMBER.] 1119

elusion and be able to give a definite 10port to the House. That is a point that will probably be dealt with later on. . Further on, lHr. Amc ', in reply to Mr. Grant, Suid-··

"Is it not fairly good countr:;~ round about Thargomindah? All tho cT_ntry 1s good in the \Vut, if it rains. Thar­!iomindah i.e in a fairly dry belt-that 1s all that c 1n be caid against it. Of ~ourso, the1~0 is a lot of good country cuwn the \'\ 1lson-I took tho whole into c<msideration. I located these line' on tho assumption that the whole lot would be built. If this Great Wctorn line is not to be Luilt, it would alter the ques· lion ultogethc t."

That is a point that al• o bears unon the n~cessity of this committee o·oin~ i~1to that district and taking· evic10nce on tl~e spot and using their o1rn horse sense and co~1mon knowledge in coming to a decision that p"r­haps would be vahabk to thi•, House, and very valuable b the St:tte of Queensland. Then, az._.in, these questions v ere asked :\fr. Amos-

" 220. By .Hr. Coyne : Tha.t 1s the transcontinental policy? Yes.

" 221. Dy :1-!r. Grant: In what vny? If you are going to run a line to Tob<Jr~ mary or Eroinunga, anti ju~ t stop >~bnr, !

th~rL i'" quito a diffen~nt thing to ru.:~­ning through.

" 222. '\'; ould that alter vour recom­mendation, then'! I would- ne-t like to say it W'Juld; I would like to go into it more."

If Mr. Amos thought it necessary to say that he would like to go into the qur -tion more, how much m0re imperative is it that this House should go into the question more? I say that this House will be better ljUalified ~o go into the quution more thoroughly if rt had a propu' r-eport from the committee t~at. was appo_into? by tho House. I sa.y d1~tmctly and ctcfimtcly that that is the very thmg the; Hou'd wants-that is, to go into the questwn more deeply and arrive at some definite, settled, and right conclusion.

Mr. MURPHY: That is wh:.1t we said when this railway was being passed.

Mr. BOOKER: 'rhis is another point I wan~ to raise in regard to th, ne< ?ssity of movmg from place to place. It is a well­known fact that in th3 s )lith-western corner there io to be found some of the very best country in the State, and wo found that none of tho officials of the Railway Department h··_-:l been there or w .·re able to be there. That is a reason wl1y tho con1n1ittco should go into that countr, and got a grip of the ~e.ture of the ool!ntry and of its pos•ibilities m order to advlf; tho House whc ~her tho line should go to Tobermory or wlJother it should GJ to EronLnga. Then haYe tluse quc-tiom that lead up to our request-

'.' 241. Would not tho Eroman::;a route brmg less traffic to our r.,.i]ways than tho Tobcnnor~~ route, becu,u3e the latter would bring traflic ,,_ hich at prtsent go.•s to New South Wales? Quite rrght.

" 242. You would get no more t;·affic by the Eromanga route, and you would have the added cost of anothe'r J.iil r-g~t miles of line? Tho on hr "'- ·~~ ".0 c ·1 going dirswt . .';ru<Y' not join th<; lmhe urt-J you' got to about Beechal lf t e me were built to Tobermory.

" 243. You got that traffic at the pro· sent time ? Yes.

"244. If the line wcr, divert< d ·C-ut h. it \VOu]d COSt ]ess, and you \\ ou]d ha YB the prospect of getting fruh traffic "Inch nm< goes to ::'{ c·:.r South \Val· ~ '! You would gc\ a little more traflic.

" 2~5. And at a less cost? Y ec."

These are matters that the House should h<tvo further infornution on. Thue is a cliscinct contradiction in the evidence bearing upoi! the Sjlocilio queotion tho cu:nmittee had to deal with under instructions from tho House. Then further qw 'lions ·,·ore a .• kcd by Mr. Gunn, as follows :-

" 253. Do you not think tho proper way to secure all the traffic of the SJuth­wcst o£ Quf'ensland is to continuo tho border railway from Dirrcnbandi west­ward? Certainly.

"2[ +. That would ruit Thargo:.Jin,: ..th and I\ occundra ac1d all that country? Yes. In a measure it would suit tho whole of that country and :;et :c certain amount of ·,,-a de from acroh tho border."

That beard very largely on tho qw -tion '' o had to de-al \vith. .\II them are vii- tl quu­tions, and q:~E stions that bear upon the \Yell­being of thJ State, and moro partie darly on th8 development of tho area '-hich these railways are approachin~- 'Tho qw ~tion at issue ic, "·hcther this Hou.o thinks the SclPct CommitJ: c is qualified to got eYidcncc that is important enough to guide the House latoc· on. 'fhat is the point-whether the Iiou'.~ ha-· co::.1ficlence in the conunittoe, and whether the v are c.blo to make the caso betfcr for t"~ State or whcthm· tLcv aro not. Then there is a question by Mr. Hamilton, as follows :-

" 266. The mistake was made in the past wb?n the railway was built from Charlcvillo to Cunnamulla; it is now alrno:: t iL.Ll1on:ible to n1~.k:: a t;-ood Fym­mctrical · chcme of railway qonskuction to suit the whole of tha '- cotntry? Yes, that lin,_ to Cunnamulla ·"noilccl even--thing." - •

That is a moo:. vital question. '\Yhen tl1at rcil,··my proposal from Charh ville to Curma­mulla was be<ore the countr;~·, if it had been dealt wifh, possiblY by a Select Com­mittee or a Royal Commiuion on railw.1y comtruction, that <rror and that blun-der \YOuld no: h:tve m committnd, The same thing mir;ht occur to-da7 if the House does not n1ako a proper invc·-~-igation, and the d 'epc · ~ invcstigatj·'"'n, into the proposal to alter tho route of the \Valla! extencccn. Then l\Ir. Gunn put this question-

" 27~. If tho border Ji ,e v. re con­tinued from Dirr~r1ba.ndi to 'Thsrgonlin­dab, then it would r, short:·r to Er:,bacw than to, sccy, Ne C\stle, if we cc:1rcgtecl up with Dntrkc? Yes, particuk.rly so if we built the via recta."

That is another question \' hich is pertinent to this parti?ular pr,op;saL ... ~f"l's +f:lat the ta~~y for R ',,ll~v51 '"N'"' - .I.J..lCio~b.l~ssioner handed ""'nrcport whlch tho. omm~hat C!uostion at

to me has no beanng on all."

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: That is so. Mr. Booker.]

ll20 [ASSE:.\!BLY.]

::\lr. BOOKER: ThcLt is the question which ih? Commi"tec were instructed by the House to dol with. 'Lwn the Minister continued-

" I rntt-y go so far as to sav that it is a report ~:h 1J sing ho1v in his on inion Y.' es,tern Q,Jeondancl should be o~J2nec'_ l:.p.

The o•1ly thing I intend to say al out that is that I le.we it to members of the Hom~ ,~·ho 1~"-v-· r-ead tho Con .. a1issioncr's re1wrt to .• 'Y ·• llethcr the committee .appointed by tho

Rot:'-' kent in view their inctruc­[4 p.m.] tion·c. I' cannot conceive that

there can bo any difference of o;)inion as to -, he'hrr th1.t r,_:port be.crs upon thn --.JlH we bad in hand, o-- hhether it d:..,~-;; no!:. say that it d{_),a:s v£ -y larg0ly

the 1,yo he d in hand, and that of reason> whc I s:ty tha~ this cDm-

hould have an even if',_i. ·-cope of

QppQ ITIOK J\1EMBETIS: I-I ear, h-2.:1.1' l

1.\lr. ;BOOICE_:-~ : Th~ _, rf"isLd tt_ _,'lr -itiJn a3 to tll-.... n -. .<ty " rnakin~ a fariher in­quir.;, .n11d dig;:ing .:e( 11·-::- iriio tlL c.ircurn-s~an." _-,s. lt is \,ell Lno,~. n the vrhc_.~e of tlh~ G.t-cat ' .. ~_~estern 1-\.aihv&.v 'YJ.s sub-r.:.11i::~cd to ~,thi) lions~. i.n i910 as ~ c;Jn:reto f-~nc _ .. :. J..hBn the }\iinl~·ter ga' ~ tlle foJo ·.·­i:l.~ ~nr:: er cviJe~1co 1.Yhcn ackcd by JYlr. Hr'1lilton-

" r,~;6. 'The whole of tha.t scll3mo was subHJtted as ono schcrne? -yes.

·• £~27. And nuturt.Jly any alt.-: ration in the doviatiDn of ow portion must affect the wlwlo -d1e:·:c-the furthr r north vou ·0" with tho Tobermon· line the more iikd., you will be to dr~ct the Windorah line."

Tlws, arc qu_ _,_:--tiJns \vhicb bca.r uron t:1e nt _ - -.ity Ill tki.d(; th clo.-r_st inY0S~igu+i{)n. Thu.:. ··-c a>o contli.~~:-g { v-idenc~ ns to ·what infiuen{.c•J to ; me ex l'llt the p!op.Js -·l altcro~ion, .::,nd that n:1atter -/ nn:., inve.~-:.igat­ing on -!-~10 s1)ot. The cvidcnL3 pro ~eeds-

" 43,;. By ::\ir. Gr2,nt: understand frc,m von· ,.lJOE' h in tho that the

' .._"c si"~~~~·a j ic'l - tile r0ui) frorn

y,-\' s tho floo:lc::d str!.t-e of s:ardty of \va·:::r?

s . .id thoro \vas no water

In <COlL_e~tion \, ith r..tilv," .. <Y constrt:LcH0n and Zkvelopn1en.t, that : a 1nc .t vital question, and the cyi:lenc3 is conJic~ing. Tb:1t i:1 a ques:ion "hich was rai: ... d by the Minister on the int'·c::luctic·1 of tho Bill, ~ nd it i.': ono 1.hich u1.rri,·· \Yith it a .eat r~sponsibility, and on v:.-hic' th'- sh{'>'t]d be in .a po.ition to sa-y is abmc 1 ·nc> not. :-hen askt'd-

" 4ZJ. The..:l the stations to the south that ere unJ, r c~ttle ·will remain unc'·.Jr <:attle without ra.ih, a.y <:ommuni<:ation 1 I sa:v that I ha.ve not proposod not t., the ext 'nsicn to To' ·cr:norv from Eroman;a soutlnvards) but I still intvnd to leave tho extension there.

"4 \0. Bv Mr. Co,·ne: What is that? th~t tJl~ W,':'no,e I)Ot t,o haYe the <;Xt!'n· f T

- u-.. eat \\ e,reru Ahat. deviation rom obcnnory."

Can you <:onceive a more important ' t' [Jlf B 1

quE3 ron r. OOJctr

for tho House to d,:al with than tD know ''hetlwr, by goino; to Eromanga., when you arri vc t-he1·e, there ,,, ill l1e a proposal to gcr at an a< uto angle eouth to Tobennor:-·1 I ~' :1~· t~1at the -conHnittcc by visiting the spot will han' 1 very much b 0 tter opiniDn as to \'.hat I might teem th0 extnwr-linary attitude of the l'llinister in propo,in::; to deviate from Tobermory, and going out to Er·omanga, and then building back again to Tobermory.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: \Ya· it not part o; the transcontinental scheme 1

Mr. BOOKER: I am quite prepared to cay tL.Jt there i nnt solita.ry member of the He ,,-b J will sa, th.1t that tran,conti-nonta1 is ~~aL;riali~ing, or 1vill Int ruOlB partit.ularly al'ter the re~

~.\-a_ sul:Hnittcd to r he coln­thc Coll1Inissioncr for Raihvavs.

Thi:. (_""ore, that is a Yery vitnl que· :ion, "as to rhr'':~r we should in, :.tr an expenditure r.-.1 an extra dis· ,,nn of 20 miles to go to Erz.nl&Jlf,a against going to Tol1ern1ory, and then bui~ l .at a co~D; arativ .. ,l~· -.:,cute angle do\Yn to TobcrlTIOl'Y· TheJe a.~~e ques­tion' that bust be <'ln idered, and the )l'O)leJ'

wa:; to c 1nsidcr them is to got first-hand evi­denc., by rea· 1'1abl:· pra::tical c,nd indepen­dent ll1 ~n. rr~ :._t quf'stio:1 is s:,-1.e-tracking. Then the l'C")Drt continues-

" .;~6. I'; the Ch. irm:t':: If the Southern border line is <:xterrdcd it will n1~ ~.::c a gr -·at difforencc in the p.:.<:>po.· ed ex tor -'ion o:..· dedat.i<:n Tobc·rnorv or-Erc,nutnga-thcro TilLY son~rthing in tl:e reporb v.-h[ch y•Ju ha,·e which boHs on that qu ·3tion 1 That pha3e of the

.que tion ~--ru dj ~:;tF:scd ~~,-hen the Great \Ycsttrn R1ilwa~.~ Bill was bcfor3 the Houce in 1910. - . . 'The cxtc', ,ion o£ the S')ut1:-v:cstern ' Jrd-.r line is ttro)tb_( r Cfl.L··ti<""l ~Jto '""th.:r.''

T~utt is a que Lion \\hich \vill :utvD to be taken into l Jns:d~ raticn; it bears ~.o l·argely c .l the que 'ion tl. qt o ha YO to do'll with thnt it is rcallv vital. Thrre .are other 111€TI1-

l.::.rs 1vho v;jll.dcal-.;··i:h this question. I b::_>e deaX 1vi:~1 it .~ ~ full;· :_s I intend to do just

I on1- Esk the I-IousB to give a reason­to the in1por~ant questions the to so.y tbo com­

or not-t} give nitt o to lroYc from

.·;,·idence in connection quF,,tion, 1and- to dec:de

-the l'E'J.- 'Jrt ·n-ill be of any value wh~n it reaches here. As

co!'n:nittcc, I sf1:~, clearl~ tha"!: the evid-~ncB alre.adv

c£ snr11 a nature thct tho country b:~f served if a Ro, .tl Comlnis­"-')-,oint· d to deal "-ith the \vho1e

nrld not n1on:;ly with the spc>:..,~je que .tioL tt- '-L~ tl~~ House al1noi :ted tho corn­'"itt·e to de.tl with ..

0PPOSITIOX 1·lE1ITI::US: :F! 0'1r, hear !

Mr. COYKE: 2i h-. Speaker---

Tho SPE .. c~.KER : Does tho hon. member ri "e to , econd thu rnotion?

Mr. COYNE: Yes. I think the hon. mem­ber for Wi.le Bay ha.o dealt very fully and ably v·ith thi. que,tion; in fact, he has ~~Jt very little more to be said, and in what ber~h-as t · ".""' I propose to traverse as little o th' -ra,?rsed 111 Hlil ,.,,J,,i~l}- the hon mem-

ne mg m connection with th ..,;__ 'w" is e mquu_y,

Great Weston Railway [3 SEPTEMBER.] Art Amendment Hill. 1121

meagre as the material was that tho Select Committee had to deal with, and that is, in every case, 'vithout exception, the 'vitnc~.ses who came before the committee all agreed that the big tracts of country in South­western Queensland was sheep-carrying coun­try. In order that hon. members may be able to follow mo in what I "ay, I will refer them to the different questions. Tho first questions I would refer to are Kos. 94 and 95 in Mr. Evans's evidence-

" How much more countrv is being made available for settlom~nt bv tho alteration from Toberrnory to Eroman­ga? The number of bales of >Yool and tho loading to the stations arc what I have given. I could not say the exact area.

" As a matter of fact, would it make any more country available for settle­ment by tho deviation to Eromanga as against Tobortnory? It makes tnore traffic available."

That is a question of tho traffic ayailable. If railways are only going to be built where they can pay from present-day traffic, you arc never going to open up our large tracts of country. Then a further question was asked-

" DY "'Ir. Covne: \Vhat would the distance be from-Dirranbandi to Hunger­ford on the map? About 240 miles."

I want to point out that if the border line were extended to Hungerford, a distance of 240 miles, you would not touch the coun­try that it is intended to open up by the southern deviation in nrcference to the northern deviation of th-;, Tobormory line. If you went to Hungerford, that country in the South-western corner of the State would be just as far off railway communica­tion as it is to-clay. 'l'hen-

" 137. Dy Mr. Hamilton: There is no doubt it is impossible for anyone to form an opinion from the evidence gi 1·cn be­fore you, ~Ir. Evans, because everyone says his own country is the best, and everyone el:3e's ('Ountry is no good and is covered with rabbits and dingoes and other [Jl'<.ts" That is so. I think you gentlemen will be .able to come to a satis­factory conclusion if you go over the ground yourselves."

Th<' reason that actuatl', the committee in asking tho House to gi\e them this permis­sion is in order that they should be able to submit an intelligent report, which would enable the House to do its very best in tho matter of expending tho public money in the construction of this )lrovosed railway. Mr. lhans himself, after all the information he was able to collect by travelling over the country, and from his engincors and sur­veyors ,.·ho went there, goes so far as to say that, unless the Committee went there them­selves, and got information at flrst hand, thev could not present an intelligent report to 'tho HouPe. Then Nlr. Bell, the Chief Engineer, was asked-

" 162. If you had your own way, inde­pendently of anybody, and you anted to connect Thargomindah and the South­western district with the metropolis, »·auld you propose to go south to Cun­namulla and then out to Thargomindah, or direct from \Valla! to Thargomindah­that is, from a traffic point of view and from the point of view of expense and

1913-3 z

the engineering difficulties? My opinion is that this country should be tapped hom neither, but by an extension of the border line."

Then he was asked whether, if tho line were run through Tuen to Hungerford, it would not rob the Cunnamulla line of its traffic, and he said, " Yes."

Mr. MAY : Of course, it would.

Mr. COYKE: The hon. member for Flin­ders knows that country out there, and he know> very well that it would rob the Cun­namulia line. These people between Cunna­mulla and the border are no more than about 60 or 70 miles from tho Cunnamulla raih\ ay station, and they do not rc;ard them­selw g as being badly treated at all. If tho railwav .,,ere run from Dirranbandi to Hun­gerford, it would not make their po,ition one bit better than it is to-day. Thev would haYe to pay a little bit less freight, and that would be all. I ask hon. members to look at question 172, where Mr. Dell was a,·ked by ::vrr. Grant-

" But both seem to run through fairly flooded country? Yes, they both go through fairly flooded country."

So that there is nothing to chose between the two lines in the matter of floods. Then again, I ask hon. memben to look at Qur ,_ tion 191, where :..1r. Dell was askced ],y my­eolf--

" If that line were run out to a point between Tohcrmory and Thargomindah, if not to Thargornindah, you think we would get more of that traffic from the south? Y cs. The further south the lino 11·as taken, tho 1norc traffic W'J ·would socure from the South-western corner of Queensland."

I reckon that that answer, coming from the (_

1hiPf Engineer for Raihvays, is sufficient justification for the motion which has been moved bv the hon. member for \Vide Bav this aftci·noon. Then I ashd 31r. Bcfl question 192--and I ask hon. members to Ji,,cen to this, as it is one of great import­ance____.

" If the line were run from Beechal Creek to a point betw"0n Tobermorv and Thargomindah, or to Thargomi~dah, would the State lose any of the trade we now got from the country between Blackall and Vv'indorah, and between \V allal and Tobermory? It would not lose any of the trade, but the loading would not traYel over as man,· miles of railway-it would have to come a longer distance by teams."

In opening up this territory, such as it is proposed to open, S'nely the matter of carrying the wool e. few miles further north is not going to prompt this House to send the line in the wrong direction.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILWAYS: There is a great difference between 50 miles and 200 miles.

Mr. COYKE: There is a great difference bcbeen 200 and 300 miles, too. There are some places in that south-western portion which are 400 miles from a rail" ay.

The SECRETARY FOR RAILVHYS: Thf're are some places in Australia which arc thou­sands of miles from a railway.

Mr. COY::'-!E: Then it is a nity thcv arc not under the control of the hon. gentleman,

Mr. Coyne.l

1122 Great Western Railway [ASSEl\IBL Y.] Act Amr.ndnuxd BilZ.

as he would be there wheeling his little wheel-barrow and turning the first sod of a railway for them, just as he has done in so many other ca,es. Mr. Amos is a gentleman who has been over this rout•', and he gave his report to this House when this original R!Jhcme y as passed bv the Houo.·. ft ,, as :Mr. Amos's report ·which prompted the Houso to pa>•• tho Great \V<·•tern Raih av scheme. ~\!though a great portion of tha't Great \Yc·,tern Railway runs through m·.· electorate, I totally di,agrced with the scheme which ,,,,g nre,,~nted to tho I-Iousc and anY­one vvho loOks up " IIansard " ~tvi'u that I said at that time that we had not suffi­cir,nt infornuttion to C'nable the Hou- o to vote on it. I m''·'t say, though, that Mr. Amos. with the time at his disposal. did the beot he could. He has been over tho route sinco, and he gave his cvidcnce bdore the qonnnittce. lion. members will , .. 8 qucc.­tlon 250, where I a -ked him a question-

" Do you think there is anything in Mr. \\ atts' s contention that it is no use building a railwa:v into cattle countrv '\hen. it can be built into shc2p country·? N othmg at all, because thn \Y est is all .;hcep country."

vVe are making vcrv little use of the coun­try in that part of Queensland. It might just as well be in the Sahara de,ert as wh0re it is. It is about time we did something to open up that torritorv, and save for 0ltr­

'"'lves some of the rC:, enue which is now going from that cornnr to another State. I consider wo arc delib0rately turning awav thoasand.,s of por:ncl:-5 of rev( nuc cvel'V yea1~ and "e will conti.nue 0 to lose that "mone.v until w~ do fo:netlung 1n tho n1atter of rail­wa:: exton"'i •n into that South-western co;·, 0r. Then I a-ked Mr. Amos question No. 258-

" If the lil'e is constrnc:ed from Dir­ranbnndi lo Hungerford, ;youkl you got any of tho traffic that is now lo3t to the State? \Yo would get some of it but very little." '

\Vhat is tho object of taking this line anl building it 210 miles-the :Minister says it !' 288 miles-but what. is tho nee of taking rt that dis•ance. when, If Mr. ~\mos is right, we will g·ct verv little more traffic throuo-h the lmild;ng of that line than v.c arc getti~g at the present time. Mr. Grant asked Mr. Amos question No. 259-

" Another point that has been raised is the question of the water supply at Tob0rmory; ::Vlr. Coyne mentions the existence of ;vaterhol<>s there which have been full oven in drought time; have you any kn }T,y]cdge ot tho~,, waterhole~? Not just at Tobermory, but to tho south of Tol1ormory I know of waterholcs. There is plenty of water there."

I know the country tlwre, and I know that about 2~. miles south of Tobcrmorv there is permanent water, so that the ground that "as given by tho Minister for introducing­this amending Bill will not bold good at all. Then I asked ::'.1r. Amos question 280-

" You have just said that, if the south­C'rn Pxtcnsion to Dirranbandi was con­tinuPd, that would he tho proper wa·' to got the Soath-wcstern trade. To what point would you extend it to get that trade? It might have eventuallv to be extended right to tho border country."

The bordf'r he refers to is the South Aus­t.ralian border. Is there any good sense in

[Mr. Goyne.

extending the line to the border of South Australia, right along our own border, to open up a territory that could Lo opened up by extending one of our present railways a distance of 120 miln? To tn':c the line along the border will mean 400 miles, and surdy, if you can hp the same cul!ltry by lmilding· a line of 120 mile,, J,nd get the fame rCoLllts. it is better businoss for the country to build the shorter line. It is bec::tu:;o v:e have not ~ot suHident evidence to sho": "·hat is the proper thing to do that this moticn has b0en moved to-day, and I trust that the good sense of the Hou'e will carry it in order that there will not be an ~xtravagant and us(:less e~q1cnditurc of public funds in building railways which will he of ao b('ndit to the State~ and very little ben: fit h the people eettle<l in those dis· tric~"··. The hon. n1onLor for :0.Iurrutnba, l.\.1r. Forsvth, g;ave evidcnre before this Select Cominittee. and I a::1,ed him questions Nos. ~33 and 334-

" Suppose the Government decided t<; Inakc Eroraan;;:a the terrnitJal rol!!t ot the line, if it were diverte'l from a point on Beechal Creek tov~ arch ~ld:1 vale---say to Gumbardo CrPek, and thenr ' to. Ero­manga-\lould it serv·e the same purpose? You- could not L: 1 that. If you go from Bcechal Creek up to (iumbardo. and then down to Eroman~ra. you would have a railway like a dog's hind leg.

" 334. Do you think it ,;·o uld serve the sam(' ptupG,;e? I do nCJt think it would, as Y.JU \Yould be getting too far a"\·ay wh~n yoa got ncar ..._.\davah'; but if you crnss the Bulloo at a point between Ro.uth and :'\orth Comangin, the whole of the traffic would go to the railway. Insterrd of the t· a.ms going from AdaYale to Charkville, t.!wy "ou!d come so.uth to th0 neare>st point on the raib ay. Instead of s1Jearing a :ot of shcPll at Emudilla, and ~lso a 'lot at ~\lilo, they will probJ.bly shPa'c' the whok of the sht·q1 at E•mu­clilla and hing· the "ool sL aight south to the rail'.ray. It may l:e ar<'ucd tha' by go:ing further north, you will intolfcre with the Iince running from Blaclmll to \Yindorah, but .. uch is not the ca ... c. I knoy; that country very well, and ,,-hen the Blackall extensio t is compleh d as far '" \\"plford--that is half-wJ.y Ld<een Blackall and \Vindorah-you will f!'et a considenble amount of t-at::c. For instJ11(",' . BLtlgToo \VO,ol has aLt ay~ gone to Charlcville, but as soon as the railway from Blacl<all gets a little fnrtlwr down "c will send the ,,,ool to the Cettral Raihvay. There are a number of Sl,li ions beyond Bnlgroo. ri::ht on lo,<·ards \Yin­do.rah-such as Thunda, Hammollll Dcwns. and Tenham--all of '.:loo,e wooi hu' gene into Charlcville, but as soon a' the Blackall line is completed they will be within easv distance of that railwav. and thcv v: 01:tlC1 never dr ·am of sPLclin·~ th0ir wool away down to Charleville. All that traffic '.'"ill g;o to Rockhampton. Ii. is about 170 miles from B,Jlgroo to C:harle­Yiilc. nnrt it ,, ill not he ,;,ore tl an 40 to 45 miles from Bulgroo to. the ncarf'st roint on the line lwtworn Blaclmll and \Yin­clorah. TlHTP is I!ot the sl;7ht· 1 st cL-.uht that the wool from all tlw stations within easy distance of Windorah will go to the c,,ntral lme."

Although :\Ir. Fors.' ~h gave that as Iris opinion, I would draw the attention of ·hon.

Great TVtrtan Railway [3 SEPTEMBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1123

nwmbers to the fact that 1Ir. Forsyth's part. r "r, the }:hm. H. Philp, who gave cvidPnce at a la'_·cr stac.e, .·aid that, notwithstandin~ that it \V011lcl b-~ c~~.._·aper to scud the Hulgroo wool viu \Yindorah and Blackall, it would still be 'ent to Brisbane. ::\Ir. Philp is a p"rtne1· of tho hon. m0mber for ::\Iurrumba in a pro­P''rty o:>t in the \Y cst0rn di.,~rict. Then I n 'dn_ d. .:.lr. For :,.~·th-

" 335. Then, according to yam· statP­meut, there would be really no ach-antw c at all from a traffic point of vic:•; in diverting the line to Eron1anga. as against TohTmorc·? I think the li•w shc1ld go to Erolll~ n~a, ber·auf.·~ b:), goi_ ~ a little further nol'th y JU v:ill gc t the full adYctnt::;;c of all the \Y._·stcn r hoop st,~tic,n:'l, such as }Ii1o, South and :Yorth Con1ongin, and others. I am rH)t too sure whether the Keeroongoolo:o wool .,. ould go into I:ockharnptou---it ifJ u1cr.~ than Iii« ly it would. By g-oin' a little further north you -. ill get thE' whole. of tho'·' -,rations m1d give those people a hg benefit. If a line went to the Bulloo instead of J<:,mmauga, l think it would serYe all purpo.<,_·s for a good. many yean vvi'"ho.ut goi:ng to Eron1 Lnga at all."

If it goes to the Bulloo only, you will not be opening up that South-western country at all. One of the pdmary reasons for expending such a large amount of publio money was to open up that territory, which will always remain a loss to Queensland until it .r;ets better facilities and railway communication. illr. Hamilton asked 1\Ir. Forsyth-

" 351. If there was railway comunica­tion, would not sh0cp take the place of cattle? I believe they would."

There is no doubt about it that sheep wDuld take the place of cattle. I know that of my own knowledge. If I did 1ot know the country a, m•ll as I do, then hon. mpml:ers ,-ould be quite s:.ttisficd t,J au:.ept thP mere statement made to this House by the ""1inister for Railways. I ha,·e not got any interest in that countr:: to the extent of one farthing. The only intereo;;t I hav-e got in taking tho action I have done is because I want to ·-ee justicD done to Queensland, and to this por­tion of QLJCcnslancl, by opening up that South­western district for the sake of settlement on the L:wd there. The land out there is held for the most useless purpose in the world at the prhent time. It is not held for breeding stock, but it is just made a. depot for nttle belonging to, Mr. Kidman and }Ir. A. C. McDonald. i\Ir. \Villiam Thomson, a grazier, also gaYe evidt·nce before the Com­mittee. ::\Ir. Thomson has lived for years in Thargomiudah. and he had a selection called Bloodwood Park Selection. I 8sked him-

" 365. What did you run on Bloodwood Park? Principally she•cp."

Mr. Thomson told the committee that the area of Blo:n}H.lO.Ot~ Park 'vas 17.000 r:.,:re", and he also stated that he ran 4,200 sheep on that small selection. hesitk• cattle and horses. He has now got a selection 8 miles west of Thargomindah, and he was asked to let the cmw 1i· '• e know about the prDsent selection which he held.

The SPEAKER: Order! The quc-Jion is whether the Seicct Committee shall trarcl from place to place, and the hon. member is not dealing with that.

:llr. COYNE: I was showing that it was ne~eosary for the Select Committ .. ee to travel, because the meagre evidence which we '\ere able to gather in Brisbane is not sufllcient to enable the House to givB a vote on this important question. \Yhcn we g·et one man like Mr. Thomson, "·ho has lived in that dis­trict for years, and who tells us about the potentialities o.f that di>trict, surely it is ,·ome justification why the committee should g·et the right to travel over thooe districts to get first-hand evidenc9 so that the House shall decide v>"hich is tho best route: for tho rail­way to ~ah·. Mr. Thorn on also, told us that the qn~lity of the land that lw hrrd v.·as ('"\Ceedingly poor land-in fact, I kno\v that it is -ou,e of the poorest land in the district­and yet he wa.:~ able to r;ury that ;::;ock {.,<ttl

t' at eL ctio· I will gP:trantce tb::tt wme oJ the pcopln who hold len time •; the ur. a that Mr. 'l'homson has do not carry that number of stock. The Hon. the Minister for Rail­ViJays, in giving ovidcnco, V/a::; asked by 11r. Grant-

" 439. Then the stations to the south that e.re under cattle will remain under cattle without railway communication? I may say that I have not proposed not to make tho exten~ion to Tobermory from Eromanga southwards, but I still intend to leave the exten,.ion there."

Now, nothing could be more silly, more ludicrous, than to propose to run the line

south from Eromanga to Tober-[4.30 p.m.] mory. Tho hon. member for

Murrumba objected to the main extE>nsion being diverted a little to the north, and then to its present objective, and he said that his objection to such a course was that the line "' ould be like a dog's hind log. But then I haYe nevm seen a dog with a leg twisted at such an acute angle as that would be, if the mggcstion of the Minister were carried out. It is less than a right angle.

The SECRETARY FOR R.ULWAYS: Is that not the proposal of the transcontinental railway?

Mr. COYNE: Yes, that is the proposal 'vhich came up before this House thrz,e or four vears ago, and which I denounced then as be'ing absurd. I adhere to that opinion to-da v; · and if this committee were allowed to t;avel, I am satisfied that the House would turn down the proposal just as I _con­tended it should be turned down on that occac,ion. Then the :Minister was asked-

" 442. By Mr. Coyne: \Vhat advantage would it be to thD State to build a line from Eromanga to Tobermory, if a direct line to Tobermory would not be of ad­vantage? The po,ition at present is, that those who are the most interested­tho people in the district-cay that it would be verv much better, in the :n­terests of the 'state, if the line is takort towards Eromanga, as the country is better."

Now, tho interested persons in every district would have the line go where their interests were.

:Mr. MAY' Their individual interests.

Mr. COYNE: Of course; but that is not what this House is here for. This House is here not to study the particular interests of an individual, but to send this line where it will do the best for the State of Queens­land and for tho settlers in that district. I maintain that if this line was run to Tober­mory or south of Tobermory, it would serve

Mr. Coyne.]

1124 Great Western Railway [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

the interests of the State far better than the proposed deviation farther north, and I be­lieve that evidence can be obtained to show that that is so. Again, the Minibter was asked-

" 448. By Mr. Coyne: What distance would you have to extend the Southern border line before it would open up the South-western country?"--

The SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. mem­ber is discussing the question of the rival routes. I ask him to confine his remarks to the motion before the House.

Mr. COYNE: I am only giving reasons why I think the Select Committee should travel. If I am just to confine my remarks to the words contained in this motion all I need to do is to get up and say, " Rc ~d the evidence and it must appeal to your own common sense that it is right to 'allow the committee to travel." I hope we shall be allowed to gi \'e rea,ons for our contentions that the deviations should not be made as proposed at the pn·'·~nt time, and I am only giving· tho evidence that tho committee have taken. I am not giving anvthing outside that evidence. I think that the 'House, if thov look at the report of the Commissioner whi~h this committee got from him-and which the House probably would never have got if the committee had not sat-I think the House will find that it iustifics the existence of the commith>e up to the present timr, and shows that tho committee, in making this request to the House, are doing the right thing. Mr. Kerr, at one time Minister for Railways in this House, was asked in questions 503, 504, 505. and 506 about the quality of the country. And Mr. Kerr had no hesitation in saying that it was all sheep-carrying countrv, and he had seen sheep carried on country that was far worse than that. Then the han. memb2r for Townsville was asked-

" 541. If the line was continued from B'eechal Creek to Eromanga, where would you send the Bulgroo wool? It would be nearer to the Central line. Bul­gmo wool has always come to Brisbane, and perhaps, for sentimental reasons, it might como to B'•isbane still, but it will cost a little more."

He contradicts another witness we had, the hon. member for Murrumba. Further, very important evidence was obtained from the 1Jndcr Secretary for Lands, a gentleman who ~mev. the country personally, and had been m most of that country about Thargo ,,indah. He gaYc evidc>noe fro!ll a first-hand know­ledge of the country. In question 603 and qw• :tion 604 h0 was asked about tho qualih­of the hnd, and hP said it was good country. Then he wa' asked-

" 612. If there was railwav communica­tion within a reasonable- distance of Norley and Thargomindah, do you think they could carry shcq1 succe'.ofully 1 I think they could."

Those are the arg-uments in fa,-our of al!o'w­ing tho committee to travel over those dis­tricts, so that they may get first-hand evi­dence and present it to the House. Then, l\'lr. Shannon was asked-

" 647. B'y Mr. Coyne: If the line went to Eromanga and remained thor<>, would it tend in any degree at all to close settlement in that South-western corner? I do not think it would."

Another gentleman who gave evidence before

[Mr. Coyne.

the committee· was lllr. Donaldson. He also said that the country was sheep countrv, that all the South-western nortion of the" State was sheep-carrying cou~ttry, and whilst, of course, he has no railway knowledge-from a railway standpoint-he knows the country pretty well, ami in giving his evidcncP. he showed that thll country down the \Vilson and tho Cooper, and the country right down to the corner, was all good sheep-carrying country. He was asked a question about the leases held in the South-western corner of the State-

" 761. By the Chairman : Are any steps being taken to deal with dingoes in that country by means of systematic poison­ing'? I do not think so. It is nearly all what they call 'Kidman's country.' Mr. Kidman is the bobs of the whole country,

" 762. He does not breed cattle 1 l\"o. I think they are mostly dry cattle."

As a matter of fact, Mr. Kidman ha•' made that particular part a depot, but all his interests are settled in Adelaide and Broken Hill. Queensland gets no benefit from them. Fifty per qmt. of his holdings are idle be­cause they arc not stocked, and so Queens­land is ksing that country, and all she gets is a paltry 5s. a square mile from most of it. Do hon. members think that is a right thing? vre arc losing land revenue, we are losing everything by the proposed deviation to the north, instead of running the railway to where it was originally intended it should go, or, as a matter of fact, running it to the South· west. Then I wish to point out that, apart from the evidence-which hon. members can see is very meagre, for there were only two persons who had any first-hand knowledge of that part of the country-! wish to point out that, apart from that, there is another aspect to this question to which I would direct the attention of han. members. And that is this, that unlee,s the committee can go right to the spot and get evidence there, they cannot say what injury this proposed deviation to Eromanga will cause to some residents in this district. On a previous occasion in this House I mentioned that it would no doubt be argued by hon. members of the House, with a certain amount of lor;ic, that this Parliament is not concerned about the interests of particular towns. But a large a:·,wunt of money has been sunk in tho••o districts by men who believed, as cit izcns of the State, that thcv would got fair treatment from the Government of the day. I would like to ask hon. members to appiy their minds to the position of a town which has no railway communication at present, but v·hich finds tha.t a proposal is made to bui! d a line ncar to it and eli vert all the traffic from it, and so wipe it out of exist­ence. Would hon. members think that that is a fair dPal to men who have pioneered that country, and sunk their all in it. to be mad<' paupers by onr act of this Govern­mont 1 X ow, if we cunnot get sufficient evi­dence to show that this proposal is justified, this committee has not concluded its labours, and the HousG is not getting the information necessary to enable it to give an intelligent ,·ote on the question submitted. For that reason, I have vPry much pleasure in second­ing tho motion which has been so ably moved by the member for Wide Bay.

The PREMIER: I do not propose to dis­cuss the need for further inquiry. I do not propose to discuss at this time the need "to

Great Western Railway L3 SEPTEMBER.] Act Amendment Bill. ll25

dig deeper," to use the expression of the han .. member for \Vide Bay, nor do I propose to d1scuss the question whether the country is being put to its proper use-that of cattle or of sheep. I could in a sentence indicate my own mind as to railway extension in this part of Queensland. It is this: Some years back tbe Minister for \Yorks of ~ew South Wales called upon me to invite me to lay on tho table CJf the House plans of a railway to connect Thargomindah with Hungerford, or some point near that place, on the under­standing th.a t his Government would connect that point with Bourke. Mv answer was that, instead of making th7tt railway, I thought it wa·' of more importanea to make a connection-and one which I would advo­cate very earnestly-from Dirranbandi to­wards Hungerford or Thargomindah, so that we might have the benefit of the trade from that portion of Queensland. I am not, how­ever, going to discuss the point of deviation, whether it is north or south, or whether the proposed leave to move from place to place would be for good or evil. I propose to raise a point of order. The han. member for Wide Bay said--

J\lr. RYAN: They are very handy some­times.

The PREMIER: Yes, and very important. So far as the i'»cUe is concerned, I would not hesitate for one moment as to the result of a division. The hon. member for Wide Bay said that he had no compunction in moving this motion. He certainly elaborated it with great force, and, I think, skill. Tho import­ance of the subject may be gr<>at, but the establishment of a precedent which would work evil to the parliamentary institution would be a greater evil, and the point I propose to rai'e and on which I wish to ask your ruling, Mr. Speaker, is whethc·r any leave which, if givr n, would prevent <tn hon. mE!mb0r of the Select Committee being in his placD on the aFscmbling of the House on sit­ting days is within the scope of Standing Order, ~o. 195. The motion asks that leave he gir"n to tho Select Committee to move from place to place, and 11hile ahsent from Brisbane to sit during any sitting of the House. The hon. member during the course of his remarks urged that they should travel from place to place to got the evidence neces­sary to enable tho House to come to a right conclusion. Now, it is pretty evident, from the manner in which the hon. gentleman addressed the Chamber, thnt he docs not contemplate leaving Brisbane on Friday morning, and being back in his place on Tuosd<1y afternoon.

Mr. MAY: He could not do it.

The PRE::\liER : He could not do it. It is quito clear thor it would in;-olve a long aknnce from Bri·,bane. I know how im­portant it is that tho rul<·'· of the parliamen­tary institution sho·1ld be ctrictly obcerved, and how we should hesitate to est<tblish pre­cedents that might work serious mi:·chief. I hm' looked into "May," and I will quote him. I will also quote Redlich in support of my view-that any leave which would in this case involve so long an absence from their places in this House is ultra vires of our S'"1-nding Orders. Now, n1emhers engaged on Select Committees are so engaged oas to be in their places in the House. They only meet on sitting days, a.nd they are not allowed to Eit during oany adjournment of the House unle>s by special leave. They are

not permitted to have an adjournment exceeding seven days, unless specially authorised, all "of which has a significance and n1ean.i.ng, and no other n1eaning can be read into it but that the House considers that it is paramount that Select Committee work must be made absolutely subservient. If the question at issue is so important as to involve travelling of any description, then nothing is clearer but that the work should be de:egated to a Royal C:ommis .. ion. (Hear, hear !) It is evidently clear from our Stand­ing Orders, and from parliamentary prac­tice, that it is quite irregular for tho House to give l0ave to its members to absent them­,el ves from their place-, in the House. The Standing Orders provide that they cannot even sit in Select Committee whilst the House is sitting, because it is clear that if they were so allowed it would be depriving the House of their services. It is quite true that to-day, in Great Britain, members are allowed to sit on Select Committees whilst the House is in session. There was a time when pr>ayers on being read, that all the doors were closed, and Select Committees a·djourned, but now it c,ppears that, by leave of the House, Select Committe< s can sit whilst the HouEe is in session. Under our own Standing Orders, Select Committees by special leave can also sit whilst the House is in session, chowing that the authorities regard as of the first importance that mem­bers should be in their places rather than serving on a Select Committee.

Mr. RYAN: They arc asking for leave.

The PREMIER : They are asking for leave, and I am showing that leave should not be given. The principle under­lying all tho authoritih concerning members of thic .. _\ .. -cembly, and meml1ers of Parlia­mc,nt generally, is that they must not desert their plo..<:es. They must be always at hand to giye advice to the Crm1n. The House kc eps, LY its Standing Orders, a firm hand on n;embers. Very occasionally, and within limited an.zc.,, it has allowed members of Select Committe<'· to movn from place to plae .. l in Great Britain. I shall quote the full pa ,.;age which is contained in the 11th edition of "May," page 412, which is as fcllo>'i.J :~

"A Select Committee may adjourn its sittings fron1 time to tin1e, and occasion­ally a power is alco g·iven by the House to adjourn from place to place; or from time to time, and from place to place. This power of adjo .. umnent from place to nlace is generallY intended to enable a <to1nn1i:tF\' to ho1(1 its sittings in dif­ferent parts of London, as tho :Mint Committee of 1837, at the Mint; the Coal Mincg Committee of 1852, at the Polvtechnic Institution; the National,Gal­lery Committee of 1853, at the National Gallery; and the Oatho Committee of 1C50, at the house of Ivlr. 'Yynn, a nwm­ber of the committee \\·ho was sick. But in 1034. the Committee on the Inns of Court al)pointRcl a quorum to go into Essex to' take the evidence of a witness who was unable to move from home. In 1SS8 it was propo"od to give tlvc power of adjourning from plnce to pl":c' to the C,mmittoe on Contmcts (I'ubhc D .. 'l­partmr·nt) in order to enable it to hold its sitiinss at \Ye~don; but the propo'.'l \vas \vithdr>\vn, and a Roya] conl1nl~­sion appointed. In 1863 this power >.as granted to the Committee on the Thames

Han. D. F. Denham.l

1126 Great Wc~tern Railway [ASSEMBLY.] Act Amendment Bill.

Conservancy, to empower it to visit dif­ferent parts of the river to which it:, inquiry extended."

They had permission then to move from place to place on tho rivc•r Thames. \Y e all know that is quito within easy reach of the British House' of Parliament.

Mr. THEODORE: This co1nmittee proposes to move from place to place on the river \Varrego.

The PREMIER : They would not be so near Parliament Houoe as in the case of tho British Committee travelling on the river Tharncs. " 1\lay " continues-

,, In 1251 tho .'Jan1e poy,·er \vas given to the Committee on Schools of Art. In certain cases, select con1n1ittees have been appointed expre,,.]y for the purpose of taking the exa1nination of \Vitnc•,.~,c·s who were incapacitated by sicknf's from attending pPrsonally to be examined before the Honse or its committees."

Therdore, it is perfectly olea~- that of rc~ent years. ~ince 1863, there ha, been pov.cr given to go from place to place during the inquiry, but always within easy reach of the House of Commons-a very different proposition to going out into the far, far \V cot, when it is highly probable members would be absent from their places at least three, or even more, weeks.

Mr. RY\N: You arc not taking this ns a point of order, are you?

'The PRE!\IIER : Tho point of order I am taking is what I have read, and on which I ask the Speaker to give his ruling­whether the motion is '" ithin tho scope of our Standin~ Order 195. Kow, "R"'dlich," Yolume 2, pag·e 196, also gives point to my remarks. I will read the ew ire paragraph, becauPe I do not wish to take out selected parts, as the ,, hole cohte>, t should be read. " l{,,•dlic1~ " says-

" It runains, finally, to explain the legal relation of a committeu to the I-Ious: as a whole. The main principle to be attended to iJ that a committee onlv exi-,ts, and only has t;o"·er to act, so far as exprcf'ly directed by the orc1or of the House which bringo it into being. 'I'his order of ref<-ronco is a firm bond, subjecting tho committee to the will of the. J-Iousc; tho reference is ah""aY'.1 treated \Viih exadnc--F, .t\nd Innst be strictly interpreted. A Select Commit­tee thercfcr.e ahvays act~ u.nder a special no'L a gener:J authority."

Fro1n plac.~ to place i-. vc17 g0noral. I take it at least that, in this instance, from place to place \\TL!ld be from Parliament House select c·.om-nittoe room to 'I'htcr,:;omindah, and then th•,:.- wo·.!ld have to got anothcr special ord,-..r to go from Parli<Ji.lTicnt I--:Io lf>B

to Cunnamulla. It would have to be from place t J plt< .. f~ and not a general roving c:oln­Inis::,ion. "l{cJiich" continues-

" The IIouso rnay at any tiine dis,'"olYe a committee or rerall it· mandate, and it fo1low,; from th'• principle laid down that the v,,Jrk of everY con1n1ittt'{~ co1n0 to an f'-l ,,~::>lLte end T:ith ihu close c~f the

-.;ion. It has oftpn happ-Pned that a C{''!1l~littce h[ls Lc,Jn .appoint{- ,1 in a f~Ub~-~­qnf'nt ;0~\ion \vii"l1 an identical purpoFe; but t11c l't~appointcd com1nitt('0 is c Jn­"idorcd to be a EC\V body, and n1ay no~ ha,;o its report upon the uncompleted

[llon. D.P. Denham.

material collected in the previous ses­sion; at most, it rnay 11rint it a~ an ap­pendix to its own report. It IS, how­ever, po,'·Siblo for tho Houue t'? evade the strict interpri'tatwn of thl Isolatwn of s,",.sions, by ordering the material v. hich has not been worked up into the report to be laid bc~or<e the n<?w com­mitte", and then spf'Cially d1rcctmg· such new con1rr1ittee to report upon 1.Yhat is thns brought up.

"The relation of mandatur and man­datory, which subsist:, between the House and a committee, is mo,,t clearly ox­pressed in the parliamentary institution kno-:\ n as an instruction. rrhe close con­firwrucnt of a cotnmittt~e to ib, special authority may lead to difficulty in two \\a vs : it ma v prove desn·able to extend tho. scope of· ;~ction of the committee: in :orne spc(;ified direction, or, on tho oth•'r hand it mav aopear to tho House that thP 'refereuCe \n spite of i~·s 11pccial "o'rding, is t~o wide, and nc'ed- limit­ing in SOD18 rliroction."

'- ~\_n instruction provides the re-::nedy in both ca·:! ··: it j-; a n1otion \vhich, as it·s ruuno in11}li0s, give., tho co:_,_1n1ittr,e a, spr:-.-_,iflc diru~tion as to its \vork. A u10tion of this kind requires not ice, and 1nn ~t bo r:nac:.o an OrJer of. the D~y. ~f adopted, It bmds tl;c <'lll1clllt't-'e stnc+ly.

I h l.Ye quoted two f!TC At authoriti,'\s in re­lation to Sel··ct Co:nElitl,''C c.nd t:"'t·ir in"4:ruc­tions. Thoro is no authority for a raying C.JtlP111.f3::ion--a rov-in.~ cor·nni::~ion for an ur;t­limited time. \Yhv, ,, ma:,- not see th1s conHnittee again this so6sion.

J\lr. UY'X: I t:uppo:-0 you hope not to see thern again.

The PRE:MIER: The object of my point of order is not to send them hence but to re­tain them within tho precincb of the House. Standino- Order 195, on which I rely, cer­tainlv ci"oe,, not confer the right of appoint­ing ~ roving commission. Having gone to one place, they will thPn ha ye to get the nuthority of the Hou'•3 to go to another place. I contPnd that if Parli:>me?t in~ended that members should move about m thrs way from place to plac~, -:s the hon. me;nber _for \Vide Bay clearly md1cated was thell' de"re, the Standing Order should have read some­thing in this manner-

" By leave of a majority of tho House to ~tdionrn to and frorn su· ·h place or plac~":L H3 they lllDY l hink fit."

If a roving commission is desirable, " May" clearly lays down that su~h a function can only be rightly undo-taken and discharged by a Royal Commission. J'\ow, there is another motion on the busine',s-paper by the hon. mc,mber for L~ichhardt, a-.king for a Select Committee in respect of bnd legislation. Supnosing the six members the hon. member h·, ·reamed g<>t permission to go hence and the hon. meri1ber for Loiohhardt also finds it necessary to ira yo], then this House would be rkpriYed of thirtef'n of its members, and we could go on until it came about that there

as no quorum in the HouFc. Of courc~e, that is carrving the matter to an absurdity, but we FhonJ,~f h(~fll\-ate bc;fcc>~ P'iYjn:~ a ... ,,.-,tt to a r:.1c}tior1 thn,_ ,_~,auld cst,"tblisl1 a prec,:::dcnt \Yhich wc,uld en. blc n .. •mber8 of the H,>use to sit on Rcl"' ;, ComT'1itk, 'and not be within r~'ach of their duties in the _\~·<~lnbly. ThNoforo I haYe d0cmed it expedient-not thr_: I want to block investigation, but rather,

Great TVest._m Railu·ay [ 3 SEPTEMBER.] Act Amendment Bill. 1127

that this is even a more important matter than the isoue raisPd bv the hon. mem h"r for \Yide Dav-thot there. should uot be estab­lislwu a pncnucnt.

l\Ir. U:J~:\F.: lt is not a precede-nt. The PREMIER : It is. Air. Cov_;E: It is c.ot. I cnn sho1v you

here i.h..tt it is not.

The PRE:VIIIGR: l\:ight I t·ek the hon. n1Pi>lbcr 1vhcro this pH'ccdent is.

The SPEAKER: Order ! Tho hoE. mem­ber llllbt con fino himself to the point of ord<3r.

'rho PRE:'.IIER: I am not aware of anv ~ud~1 P_f'~.'(.C~'~7 , Thcr,__. is no. prccc dent laid c,ov._ll 111 _d_ ty, and thorJ IS no prc('Cdf'nt in '• Hcdlic11,'' and I am Yet to be sati•fied ~hat sue: h _a precec~cnt doc•; exist. l\Iy point Is t_~1·.~t 1~ Is 11ot vnth1~1 _tho ~-::ope or n1c·1ning of ::itandmg 0rr!cr 19b to g1vc hon. mcmbc·rs of this I-Iou .: -~,:ho r:re en a S('lcct Cot.unittco U1::J':h. ,:·ity to LLJ:. r \ a1...d thn·-: be absent fro In

~:1--c~r vl:·,ce~ in tL IIo·Jf-',', and tv dC>p~iYc th01 v_.us}lhJ( lt- rn'! the• Ilo,''" ccn{'"L··llv of their coumol. I therefore raise the point of ordL•r and a,k your ruling, :Mr. Speaker.

l\Ir. H.\::\liLTOX (G'n]o. y): I w1:nt to '"·Y ~ \vm:d or ~wo on the; I<Jint of order. The ..~... renuer pol.H 1 ~ cl out c .t'·0,c; in Envla1 d ~,;here pcf111is; :on h .. J been giYen ~') Sr·L . .::c~ Con1.­mittc'"-·s to n1ov8 fron1 place to place. Of courFr, he saip_, in on(• c.t::K', it -. .., :,s onl;: frorn placu to pla(·:· on the riYcr Th: ._n,·s. if tht·v h:•d po·,;-u to gin• l" tmission to tra..-d fo'r <?;'e m~le they ought to have power to give IL for 100 nul(:~. Ic 1s a quest..Jn of d~grcc. The hon. cc·1tkmo.E s:jcl there ",,s no rc il80n "''"1P" !llC'Hlh•rs ~lr~mkl ,,_ -::~t to gu out ·Lhcrc to p·c: in~vnn:.ti!·H on _t 11e spot.

Th· PR:'l~liLl : I did not say s,>.

1lr. I-I..:'. ::.\IILTO='\: I unll•T ~~·ood the hun. gcnt1:.•r.nan to ;_xv so.

The PREJIIER : No, no !

)ir. IIA:'llLTO~: Tiv: inforn11tion th': l\Iini::;t.r--r l'UY ~D ~'~1' T1cn.1s~ y:,'.''3 infor~-.r .tion we cv 1{1 g',L; en tho con1111;,: L·(-~ of inquir-v --iJP_t "''-- inh·.1tion to pll•,h on v.ii.h th'B bord, r line.

The SPEAKER: Order!

~\lr. HAJ\!ILTO::'\f: He quoted t11e answer \Vhich he :;aY,?.

Th : Sl'E"\ LER: Order !

~Jr. HA~\liLTO~: The hon. n1cmb:,r w;As allo,\·c,1 +.1 rcft r t"'J the rnat~cr.

Tho RPE .. \I-{ER: Order! The hon. mein­bcr uid h,, .,·ish ·d to e!>eRk to the point of order. IIo nn1~' confine hiL.~."elf to that.

Mr. IIA IULTOX: Tho Prc,11ier i,oinr"d ot~t ~}:.::~, op t\ -o different ocrJ.sions the pr-~,'­IIllSfl':t[ 1:: rng asked fm .. ~ no..,s w:: '. _-r.,ntcd by Ini·l:l;1 -TS of i.Le 1-Iouso of CD!Inr;Cms. C··l?­tainly thr: rrw~nbcrs of tho.;o C'Jrnn1it - :s did not rno.-~ a gr-~::1t di,~tance from, the 1-Iou;.·: of C .. -:n~nons, a·~ tf1is con1mittec prop( 'C to do. I f'lppcse it is onl- a , of d:_,.trec. I suppo~e if tl1L'~' had W:Lnt," to ' ... J di".-!~n~c· .' ~he:~· \VOLlld ha~, j:ot_ 1_~·-~rrni:·' to go, 1f , he uu·:nnc "' .,-,? J sufhcH ~1t 1n1r r,. -tnce. Fm- m_v. m.-n p .• rt, I haYe a pcrfecth- opm< nnnd ~-·cr. nnd I lntnt morn info;·n1ation thn11 I ha,-e go' bdorc I submit a rE'~>oct to thn Hou'rJ vnd tho only v.-,1:: to do it, is in the Ill,tlliL;r in whic~1 we are asking.

The SPEAKER: The hon. member's re­mark< "ould lee quite in o.rdcr in dealing ,,-ith th~ motion, but not on the point of ordPr.

:\lr. HA:/.HLTON: Coming bac!< to tho point of order, I say that, if the _Ho1:sn giYes pcrmi·<ion, ,,-e should o.nly be doing what tho I-Iou-:~,-: of C·J:J:-'-lvvons has given, iri, perhaps, a le· ·Jer ch·gr,.:.c, to n1ombers of that :House to do.

.:Cfr. RY_\N: The point of order that has he: 1.'n nlir~:'t1 by the C:1ief Secret3-ry is one ,·hich, to my lnir,J, must be rulc·d against

him. He certainly ro.sc and said that he intended. to r;1is~ a roint of order, but most

of bi,, argurr· t'nt \Y:l s directed to [-5 p.m.] the fact that the House should

hesitate t>J grant the leave asked for. It "'«s more an argument directed rn:airht, tLo granting of the leave than to the point a;,. to q·h,.ther this particular n1vtj·)n wa' in order. I ' ish to confiz_e my -elf to the qnc..:.~ :0n as .) :}oint of ordc:"-that is. is this mo:io:a o,t :~" h TI1emtcr for \Yid:J Bay ane c<hich this Hou· <,' i: C0111p··>tent to UC!'l- r)e to? Ita'.., it that that i:; the point of order. I do not thin~,. ,_, Pfed f.s'J beyond our O,\\'n btn,ndir: Orcl to find that this llouse is not Fm1h"] in its power with regard to ar:-cedi:1_g; L1 thi:s 1notion or {,ther,~.'is~. \\-lwther it is dcoiL'-•le to accede to it or not is quite a11o-Ll:cr r_.attfr. I think ~hat. is vJE•re the Chief Sec Ectary fails in Iris argu­m nt. Standing Orders 194 and 195 deal with the mattPr. Sl:luding Ord"r 1'J4 provide;-

" Except by leave oi a LlajDrit,, of the I'k1" :e, a Select Committee cannot sit during any ~{itting vf the 1-Iouse."

This n: Jtion p ,,<·}:,-asks for h _tvo to sit durin~ any sitting o,£ the 1-Iouse. Lnder , h·J.t Stand~ inC" Ordur 'no have r-=>wer to give that !Lave b:~ a 111 ~, jurity of th.J 1-Iou.-.. · Sta.ndi:..1c Order 195 provides-

"~\ Sl :ect CJ~:.1r1ittc;, n.0_y adjourn fron1 tinE' to t.in10, and. Ly h --~V(' of a majori~y d tho f~·:mse, from pJc,ce 1.o pl:lC€."

It is cvidl'n~ from the fJnn of tLr::t order th:~,t thPy rnay adjourn \\ i-:lwut consultin~ this }fo''''<\ at alL bnt they L·~y not n1ave frorn p~ttcc to. nLlCe without the leave vf a n1ajority of th< douse. So that, reading tho two Standing Orders together, it is n~ce sary for tl'd 8'~loct, Corn1nittce t:) :'·t;I the l2a.vc of a :mrrjoritv of the Ho,·se tD sit dcuing any sit­ting of~tho :Ho~1se, .and it is ;:dso ncce;:3ary to get the leaYc of the majority of the House to mo.vo from plac3 to pla< B. 'That is all the hon. nwmber fer "\Vide Ba_y is moving fvr-asking for the lcayo of llw majority cf tho House. He LO'l;cl have cnckcl up his moiion by simply In{)ving for leave to n1o•;c fron1 place t{) place, which ;·,ould be under Shmling Orcl0r 195. !?ut b~ alsc adcL that he ;vunts tv _g·ivf' them have to ,s:t du1·i:H( the .i+-hng of tho Ilous3, so t 1Ht+, when they .UT'~ a>,Tay and the Hm .. t'-e

is sittin ~, the" mn.y condllct the iT business. ~~ode 1:,t thJ fcnn of the n1otion is gPn~ral-­i{ '1Vs "fron.:. plac.' to place." It gi",f'< a very "wir1e power as to where the committee may go, 1. u' I take it th:ct you. Thfr. Speaker, "\vill not rulr- tl_ ··t this Hous1~ has no~ pzn:yer t-o give as \Yi(\' a leave as it likes. I take it thut vc1 will >h·ive rather to v·cclcn ~ho pc.wer,. of Parli l'llCrnt for its own members, rather than to curtail the•n. On the wide poin: of ord0r as submitted t-J you, I think th8 mot.iDn is i11 o1·cler. \Vhet1~·f'r it. is jsB t-o do it is. I Lim it, a matter £nr the Com­mittee itself; it may be a gr. mnd for yoting

Jir. Ryan.]

1128 Great WcRtern Railway [ASSEMBLY.] Act Am, ndmu1t Bill.

against the motion, but I submit that it is not a reason for ruling it out of or,lcr. I trust you will rule that the 'w.hon is in order, and that you wiJ 1 :tve it to the I-Iouf:~ to e..-:tab­lish its o ,, n precedent as to whether it v,,ill give su.::h 1,Yido po\~'Crs or nof

l\lr, COYNE: The Chief SPoretary said that "c hac! no preu·dPnts icr1 this Hou'0 on thi. matter. If he will iook up the "Yotcs and ProcC'edings" for the ·~ssion 1876, he will find that. on the 2lcJ. t:lor( •mber, tlwrc was a formal motion 1 y ::\Jr. 1Ici!wraith, as fol· lows:-

" That the Finm10i.,] Committee appoint"d by this llm1 eon the 20th July. to inquire into tho financial po-ition of t·1w colony, and tho st.,te of the public accounts> have po\\ f'r to adjourn frorn place to place\.

"Question put and passecl."

There is also hero a sec>Jncl prPcc<lont, which is not qnite U'l all-fours with the• one we had before to-night. but it is as near '"' po-.sible to it. From the "Vot<''" and Proceedings" of the A' ',nmbly o£ 4th October, 1838, it ,,, ill be seen that the foJlo•• ing m0ticc1 WetS f ~ ,•;cd :-

."That a Select Committee be appointed, wtth power to send for pcnons and paper•·, and to 1"ove from place to place, a!ld leave t0 sit during aD~- adjournmr:nt of the Hou~o, to inquire into and report upon tho cc·.ncLtone quar ies of the Soathern dictricts of the colony."

There arc thu_., b~:o pl''""'' r-_.r1Plts for thfl rn<"'; :o,n of the hnn. i1lf';nbpr for '\\Tide n-av. 'rl:w ouJv rliffe':•nce in the l ,•t one i•1 that' it cnlv a,l:s for the contn1itt"o to sit during any ad.jonrn­ment of tho 1 I o.uso. That is IDOt •)p0ciiic'd in any v. ay at all in this motion. It docs not say it must sit during the adjournm. llt of n,, House, but it is in the same tcr:11s of the precedent of 1876. I think tho contention of tho Chid Secretary, that thoro is no pro­cnde•lt. is wrong, and that his point of order has failed.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IK­RTHLTLI'ION: Bo'o,·c vou como to a rJo,,·,·on 1\Tr. Spea'.L·r) I \\Ould like to sa·y a fey{ word~ on tlw y .1int of order ruiw :l l·y the Premier. Tlw loader of th<J Oppoc;ition (, ,nten<lod tl "·t y,·,l :-:~10.dcl. a"' far as poc;;;i1 ~e. arnnlifv tho Staudir "": On1.~rs. ar~d not rP'trirt thPnl, bnt I suhn1it f'_ar it if: your du+v to int.crprcot t 11c Standing Ordcrf' 1\·ith rf'rrard to th0 parti···,t',,r point rai ,,d. The Standing Ordet ,, v, ero a:lopi ! by t!F .'>~" ~nblv on thP lOth Aucmst, 1911. anc~ ''Pf'fOvc! on tlw 17th \mru•,;, 1'1'1. vnd it is more than an assumption' that were pa" 'rl with full l;;'!lov led~o of the and pncb,'O of Parliam0nt th ,t cxistecl previously. The committee which h-od cban~" of tht so particular matt0r:3 vvould be a_i-. an~r rQt0 prf snmcd-·-'•' b~-1-hfr thP pTP9Ulnp­t·0n 1'3 J 'T {e or small~tn haYn th·1t k:ow­lr~clge, and tho,.e h·o SLmding Orders-1: ,4 . and . lP.'J_.,, onl.d be pa.''''d acting o,n previous Interpretations of the parlian1cnt:1rv law. 'rherc r~n b-. no f[U<'ston that SclP,.:t CommittH's are really the creaturr~s of tho Hon~e. They ar0 ar.nointc•d al , 1lntrlv by th" House, and th0ir funrtion· are limiter] bv their terms of appointment. ·

Mr. HUNTER: Limited by the House. The SBCRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN.

STRL'CTION: Limited bv the instrument of appointment agreed to by the House. They have .onl,;· ce,rt,ain powers, and they can only exerCise theu powers in certain limited ways. The practice of Parliaments, even

lMr. Rya;n.

when similar orders ha. o been in existence­in the British House of Commons-has been to so limit those powers as not to deprive tho countrv of the services of tho members who 1\ ere · sent there to · represent various constituencies.

::.\Ir. THEODORE : \Vhere do you get that from?

The SECRETARY FOR PL'BLIC IN­STRT,"CTION: If the hon. member had listened to the quotations given h:om " :May " and "Hedlich," ho would see that, where I cave was gi' en, in not one instance did that leave allow any member to escape his bounden duty to the House and the country -his services in tho Hou,•e-and they took all sorts of nrcc•mtions that the House should not b~ deD~iwd of the servicr' o£ its mem­bers. The -loader of the Opposition says the SclPct Committee is not to sit while the House is sitting, except by leave of the majority of the Home. The point of order under discu,sion tonches the motion; it does not como within the scope of that point at all. Standing Order 195 roads-

" A Select Committee may acljourn from time to time, and, by leave of a majority of the House, from place to place."

It is in a more limited sense than tho mo· tion of the hon. member.

Mr. PAYNE: How?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRUCTIO;'\: By the ordinary interpreta. tion of English. The notice of motion is as follows:-

"That leave be given to the Select Committee on tho Great \Vestern Railway .\et Amendment Bill to move from pla<1e to place--

There is no limitation of plac•', no limitation of time. and no limitation as to whether the House is sitting or not, or whether the ses­sion is ended or not-

" and, while absent from Brisbane, to sit during- any sitting of the !-Iouso."

It is r<'asm,ahle to as"ame that thc·y could not po~sibl:.- ("et the evidencD of one witness away from here 'IYithout being absent on some of the sitting days of the House.

JI.Ir. HumER: It is quite possibl<'.

ThD SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IN­STRCCTION: The\' conlcl not possibly go to Charleville, or any of these place:, with­out being away some time, and it would be ridiculous to sa:-- th:1t they could get any ovidf'nce, or do anything succe,osfully, by ~imply rm,hing out there and back, between Friday and Tuesday. I challeno;e any mem· ber on that side to quote any precedent to chow that any lc,J,YC has f•ver been giYen tho result of which has allowed any member to escape th,o sf'n-iccs of the Honse. I sub­mit that the point of the Chief SuJretary is v dl founded, and should be upheld.

!\Ir. THEODORE (Chil1agoe): It appears to llH. after listening to tho han. gentleman who has re,mncd his srat, and the Premier, vd10 raised the point of order, that there is no doubt whatever that the motion is quite in order. Tho Minister for Public Instrnc· tion tries to boLter up a weak argument by saying that no precedent could be shown that c,uch an order as asked for by the Select Committee had ever been conferred by this Parliament or any other Parliament in a

Gnat Western, etc., Bill. [3 SEPTE~1BER.] Elections ActJ, etc., Bill. 1129

British-st.·eaking community. But m raising the point o£ order, no precedent was shown that any such lea vo had ever been refused.

:\[r. RnN: Or ruled out of order.

:\Ir. THEODORE: Or that anv such motion had 1 '-'L'll ruivL: out of order bf~C<:HlS;' it v~ as no\ in .~cro LJa,_co with the St 1.ndinc· Orders of the ParliaLlPnt eonLernecl. Thcr•L..soc'rns to be no definite p>·cccclent on this point, except the one raisPd b' the hon. member for \Y ar­rego, in n •;ard. to tho former part of the motion. where it is asked for leave to move from place to r b._,e, If there is no precedent in regard to that matter, then I consider that it i, comtol lent 1or this Hou'-'J to <•stablish ib own vreeedent. It is quite evident th<1t when our Standing Orders are silent on any particular question. and we cannot bo guided by the llou~c of Commom. then thi, Honse must hav .. · tho right to establish its own prece­dent. The a1gunwnt of tho hon. gentleman about the urw. isdom of allowing a Sol oct Cornn1ittce, consisting of mernhors of Par­lianlcnt, to· go a,,·ay fro1n Brisbane, and therob7 dcnrive Parliament of the c,ervices of those g~ntlcmcn, might be a very good arg·1n10nt against the carrying of this lTIO­

ticn, but it is certainly not a good argument in fa,our of the point of order ra.ised by the Premier.

:;\lr. GIL\KT (Ii:t:roy): '.',~ith re:ard to the poiLt of order rr ifJ'--'d b:y tlF~ Chief Sc,~re­i.1ry, I do not think there i,, any nee· ",itv 1 ) go any furthn than our O\Hl Stancling Ol·d 1 ,,, TLe.~· an~ qui;,~ explicit on tho lU:lt­

l,:r. It eety·: in our Stanrling Orders that by a YCJte of a maj01·ity of the members of th· llol-: 0 a SeJe,=·t (_ \nurnitree can bo a;)-p )inh d · it during t~10 sittings of tllE: 1Io-J ~, by ,, uutjorit:"- of tho HlFi_;_llWl

·~L .;.t ->- ColYn~JitrE''J can 1uovo abou> frotn pla~·c , ) 1 1 [~C<'. ::~a,·., ·• place to place" in tlH~ E11gli 'r lan~~;ua~o i-; c1·,Iil·: plain. It do,._•s noL. I: ':tll n -:·ly 1noving frurn Parlia1uc~nt IImt>.' Qu'. n street. It is ' ic:e f uot' .·:1 r·.) ,. going to Thargomindah

Cn--:dt·-~-il~L'. and in a, '- J.se of thi·. kiucl, _'{' o ti.' ow.:1 Stant.ling Orders >re bO clear,

l J; uot think it i', n•-', · _,r3 to go beyond thmn.

Mr. IlL "'Ell: 'TLo House haJ power to grant i'·,

~Ir. GH .-\1'·~T: -y-, ··, ccr,,"'.inl\: and Y.e are Rf dtif -ing C_t' llo"L<J it·el~ i.f · \' c sa:v that t.h•_ lie·· ,~ has not 1101 ·cr to grant it. (JJpar, h" :r ~) \ro h_:.ve t,,o snctific L':l.:f'3 ·whic·h oec·lriT\; in Qaee·:sl ::.1d. L One y.-as in 1:J"I'6, n··1d I h.~ve jG;~: l·okeJ "Il:::n'·~rJ '' for that y.'ar to '- what ph. e. The cfhc;r in::ta nco oecurred in 1253.

The Pn~·c.ll: Thoc;e coHm:ittce"l just mo"' ·l to 'he Po. t Cflic0 anu Customs llvuso in I'.ri ··.1ae.

:\h. GR -\.:\'1': But n•J one < .. n · that thc~v di::1 not L ,ye iu··t ihc :-- llle right to 1110\ to Ip- v:·,.~~h or Uockh.·· 1nntnu n" to n·e to Cu«.-i-:}LHi J-I- -n~e and. Po-t 01iice }n Bri:~':l:.~nl'. t:o r 1l'. l hnsc I~C'YO_' 11- Drd [tll\"­

onc say tha: thn · pO\Yer of Sel~·-::·t Con11:1l-:;­t:~<'s as li.nitcd to stwh an extt'2lt th.1t t1-_,.,. cop.ld not. 1nove fron1 pbce to pla(':_•. Any­holY, I think onr o,,·n Standing Order,~ a1,_

so dear and L•xplicit on tlL matter t])[lt there c•.nuu:- be ,any going behind thmn. T'hc f1andi'lp; Orc1er··· are for our guidar:..- ,,! and ·y\c are ~tnltifying ourselves and be­littlinr· the H ou · c if 'SO do not follow our O\Yll Rtantling· Ordrrs.

0PPOSI1'ION MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

Tho SPEAKER : The question raiseu by tho Chief Secretarv is one of extreme m­terest and itnportar;ce. Tho question \;·hich ho has raised is one \vhieh has not boon de­cided in any I-ImLe of Legislature in Aus­tralia, nor has it be~n decided on the msnts of tho casll bv tho British House of Com­LlOll·. Instanc'e-: 'Yore furnished by the Chief Secretary in ,-cg·ard to the question of S"l:-ct Committe,•s travelling within the om-iron­ment Df London, <>nd therefore within call of \\~, -tminsiC'l', and he sa: s that they also <1pply to this cot·e, ao tho "place to place" in ftc ca::3e of London nu ant ·wir.hin the en­Yil'onrnent of London. There v. ere bvo in­stances mentioned bv the han. m?mbor for \Y arrego \VherB authority 1.vas given to a Seleet Con1n1itten in Queen~lanci to t.ravBl from place to place, but in the case of one it is c:car that they were permitt0d to traYel only \vi thin the < nvii·omncnt of the city of Brisbane. In the oth('r case, authority W-:d

ginn to the Select Comrnitt,ce to tr<1vol for sonw c~istanco on the Brisbane l{,iver to inquire into the qu·- ~tion of son1e stone for u~l~ ;'t Parli-.tn1ent I:-Ionsc, Brisban{'. The c<~..;o ,, :1ich i s:1bn1ittL'd for decision nov; is ,- hetlH·" you arc to allow the whole of the lLlc·ineos of Parliamo:1t to b0 made a ques­tion s,.~bsiclia1·v to tho duties of a ~~ =dl'ct Coumittee-th"at is, whether you \Yill allow rnc~-lb( 1 ., of a Sc1c,:ot Cornrnittee to lay aside their duties in ParliamLnt and make the que:;~:on of tL(·ir d'_:..ties on a SelecT Colluniv­<CC tho more important p ... 1 t of thoir duty. Fir·.tiY. I ;,:rn o! onin:-}n that ; ou canr-"t rnnkc ~the \York of J\_1-li'tnlent .,·u1· ,idi::.r""-- to a:nv '' ork \:l1i:;h i allotted bv Parlia.Illent tv ~any rnerr1ber. rl110ro+nre, I t\ink that the dutie' of anv nwn1Ler of Parlia1nu ... t-and I an1 "•Upportc~d in tny decision in IT1:~ard to ihj-, rnattC'r b";· Hw authori':-ics which I have around mP, and hich it is needless to re­Cilpitulate-are, firstly, their parliamentary duties, and thc•ir sec~nd dL1ty is their dutv to any cunn11itt( -; ;'hich Parlit.unent tnight a~,k thc:n t·J nndC'rtako during any adjourn­Inont of tJn l-Iou.s ~. InnL.n1t rable co np1icu,­tions y,·oul(l LL~,ue if t]Ji Y,\ ~·r nG 1 Ltllv rcc ni ,,, l. I an1 forllfied i ,. n1v c ~)inion~ .aLo lJ-.T the tc:1ns of th_\ iL.:·~r-~cti_)il . .._T'::8 tcnn of the in,._rucH.ou to the f:;el~r f- Cc-mmi:.tco are disti".ctL lai,l r1own. It is clr"crlv laid <lown t~:_tf thov Sclb COlil!'li~L~-:o. "ha\~0 pr:;vver to

'Iltl fo\' l rscn l awJ p.1.p::rs," and to take any evi:Inco they rc-juirc-. They h:1ve f 11l poY.Tcr tu senc.l to any vart of Queensland for :- :.tch eYiJenc"--' and t.~ send to anv nublic office iL Qur·--n-Jand for any papor 'tl;ey, require. 'ThoL:fore. Pm-Iiam<'nt has given charter to the Sr-lc: i· Commit!' •e to •:.1re L!lh·-·t pc-: ,i1)lc evid, nco '· ithin thP environnt'nt or y,ithin 11<' reach of Pcrli:•;,wnt Ilor;e · The pain! raised by the C:hid Sr··rd:u_v is a di,­tiuc<h~ cr·rTf'Ct one,· a.'1d a r~g-ht one, in that St·t:lfli1''?,' Ord ·r 195 does net con~C'DlJL"to the a1)sp: u: uf · ny lwn. lUi lllllC'" v·ho rna--:" ~erve on n Sr'· ~~t Co1n1nittc,p fro1n his ser,:ices to th,_, country in Parliament.

GOYERX1IE:\T J\1E:\1BER'2i: l1ear, ht::-tr!

The SPEA<:ER: If th0re are no further noli< th<' Hnu"A will now proceed to the Orders of tl'e Day.

ELECTIONS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

SECJXD RK\DIKG--RbU~IPTION OF DEBAT8.

Illr. IIUXHAM (Buranda) : It has been said that this Elections Acts Amendment Bill is one of the most important measures that we have been called upon to deal with this

JJfr. Huxham.l

ll30 Elections Acts [ASSE::\IBLY.]

session, and I also am certainlv of that opinion. I quito rc~ognise, judgillg by tho rc,'Jark made b1 tho hon. members on tho C O'."Crnnwnt id··· and han. Inc:nb{'l'S on this side of the I-Iouse, t]nt we are all desirous of seeing thn. thP pooplo shall not be de­~J.rrcd h·orn c~{cn·ising their right-) of clcct­mg members to thi< Chamber. I have been very much et·uck by the fact thnt members generally have dealt fairly \vith each other's ren1arks, and. nw~ubers opposite haYe gener­ously recogmsod that we on thi, side ex­prr•<s our opin;ons in order to mfoguard the mtt'rests of the people who sent us to the Assembly. Generally speakin§!", it will be rocogn :~.:d that it is our n1o<t irnportant function to safeguard the righb of the el. 0-

tors. I must cay that there has been some hard hitting at times b:v members sitting on tho other side of the House, and ;[ have to admit that from time to time they maim us squuik v:hen they hit us hare!. l.Iembers ge·terally on th.e other side of the House, ho-,YOYC'I', rc.'ognLo the,: 've exprf';;s the Yiew~,, we believe in, and that we do it in the :n­terests of the people who send us her•·. There is one exc,,pti .. cl, tend that is tho hon. memb~r for Port Curi·is; and the ro2narks he mar~'~ in this House will be to his discredit. No one could have be0n more delilwrate than the hon. mcml,rr for Port C'•ut:., was in !he insults which he hurled over to this side of the Hom". The k der of tho Opposition was not sn· rc,l cl. ell bv the hon. mcmbn for Pmt Cm cis, and I think tl1at the good temper of the leader of tho Opposition war, under the cirr nnstancc9, well su;Jt 1ined. The hon. rr>'mbo: for Port Cm·tis could not even h-aYc 11r. Fi--hcr alone. I-1e 1nu"t drag ::\Ir. Fisher into the clPbatc', nnd try to ::nake hi1n an obje.~' of ridicule in this House, I think it is time that we should approach matters of this ·ort in a b·"ttcr sniric towards cvch other, and vvithout an:"'" intention of offr ring an:v insults. I sinccrel;· hope that the hon. lll"~nbcr for PcTt Curtis will be liko n1ys-?-l£, .and take netic" c.f the very .oppropriate quo­tation th'Lt \cr.·. giyon b~.- the ho:~. n1cmbor for Rnrrun1. It \Yill appl;· to t\o e.''"c"·3 of the hon. 1remb r for Port Curt's. and :dso to ''ny other me11ber, and for ihe benefit of th0 1-"Jn. mC'n-,ber for Port Curt; ::l pnd ')thc·rs, I .,, ill repeat the quobtion-

" EYcry "tetion that e. 1nan eom1nitR entor~ intn tho substance of his being·, and he c, .. n never be aft~rwards what he was before."

The hon. member for Port Curtis must think of that 'Yh<·n he thinks of the ''leech which ho delivered here. •

Mr. K• · .. ,,~LL: \Yhat was the particular remark I m ~,de which you comr,lain of?

Mr. HUXHA::\1: I refer to the g•·nnal ro1narks ;;rhich t~-w hon. n1P1nb~r din;Ctod to this side of the Ibusc, and to several insults which he w: .. s guilty of.

:C1lr. KE,·ELL: \Vhat particular phr"se Jid I use?

::\Ir. II"CXHA:M: I will quote rome of thccm to. the hon. mc·mbor ·-·ith pleasure-no, not

1th plcasur,, becauw I regret verv much ha.-in§!" :o do so. In the first pla8e, tin bon. memlwr for Port Curtis said-

" rrhe party opposite . . . l11ac0d thr· , ... -omen bd•-,cecn them ~nd tho policemen's batons dnri:t:g the Brisbane strike."

:Mr. I\):s"l<JLL: That is on record.

Mr. II"L.TXH.\M: It is on rc•:ord, but it is not true. I maintain, having taken ,ln

[.ilf:r. Huxham.

active part in that strike, not with the inten­tion of causing trouble, but with the idea of assuaging trouble--

Mr. THOUT: \Vhy not let the strike drop?

J\Ir. HUXHAJ\1: The hon. member for Port Curtis asked me to point out tho parts of his speech I objected to, e.nd I .:1111 doing so. I would like to Ic t thn slrike dl'Op entirely, but why should an hon. member bring it up here from time to time, and n1agnify his in:Jults against us sirnply bee a use an incident occurred some eighteen months ago 'I Ilcre is another quotation from the hon. gentleman-

" The Labour party wanted onlv the people who voted the sociali'lt tic!~et to haYe a vote.''

J\lr. KE>'oELL: That is perfectly rig~t.

IIIr. RGXHAM: It is wrong. We want c".-c·rybody who is entitled to a vote to get that vote. \V c aro so jealcus in seeing that every percon should get a vote that we are anxious that those men who travel from place to pla.,e rhonld not be denied th., right ~,-1 vote. The h·)n. mmnber for \\-arre~o stated :,-csterday tint there v as a possibility under thj ,, Bill of a rna'l born in the State being· dcnL•d his 'oto for the trr·:1 of his w·tura] life. Doe• the hon. member for Port Curt;., know the condition of tho nomad in \Ve•tern Queensland? \Ve are very anxious to ::-ive " Yote to the•" men who are doing the activo l)ioncering \York in Queensland. \Ve hear a great d• :ll .. about the pioneer, and about the men who opened up the country and blazed thr; track. and took up large quantities of land in the \Yestern districts. Thr se men were nomads in their time. I suppo~' the hon. member for Cambooya would be corsidered a nomad w}),,n he L,nded here and v .. ;]kc•J in his kilts to \Yarwiuk. It is only u qucetion of dcgro0, after all, in defining what a nom<td is. \V" should be careful to give th~ ncnna.d P. Yote in return for tho work he has done for the State in times gone by. \Vh;r should we loo:, upon thC'r~ mC'n PS the ofi'-'-.'·!Jurings of our COln­

munity, and treat them as mc·n not entitled to a Yotc, 'vhon they are doing such great work for the community? I consider that those men are entitled to the highest priYi­le;.c' that we can confer on them.

Mr. GILLIES: Queensland would not be much without them.

::i1r. HUXHAM: It would not. I do not spFak i~1 bitterness against the hon. rnen1ber for Port Curtis-! do it rather in sorrow. The.::c arc tin.~.cs l;Yhen v<e do comn1it ourselves vnd go oYer the odds wh0n \VC are speaking in this Hou.se, au•l that is why I think it is good to have these adn1onitions qarvcd up to ns, because it lt'ill assist us to act better in future. Of all tho questions rai,Ad in c-on­nection with this debate, I think that rai ,eel lr the hon. mcmb r for \Varree:o wac, the most important one of all. \Yc h::~ve a prc·:cl'··C' hom tho Chief Sr.~retar:v that the provi,ions of tho Bill will be altered in Com­mittee to <:'nablc thc'e men in the far \Vest

to record their votes by post. [5.30 p.m.] And not under· r"1y circu:nstancos

should we allow anvboclv in this State, who is dcoerving of the~ consideration of this House, to be debarred from the great privilege of voting at election day. There is not the ka.st doubt that. the Bill, as it comes before us now, is the result of panic legisla­tion.

A GOVERNMENT MEMBER : How is that?

Elections Acts [3 SEPTE:.IIBER. J 1131

J'.Ir. HUXHA:M: \Yc had it mentioned in the Governor's bpC'och.

l\Ir. ~IUI~-'}.\.X: You \Yore very nicD in your opening remarks.

)Ir. HCXII.\l\1: I am vc:ry, rlad to kno\Y that I am ni. e in mv rcmecrl<s. I like to treat thery rnc:nl, 'r v>ith courtco::·y. .A.t the sarnc tirne, thl :"C if' no n a~·~Jn ''div I should not de"l with a point tlmt apjlt -.tr~ to n•,. to ~u strong. In ilw Governor's Spe><::ch thoro 1s a r .. ·ark which .• hows that tho Bill is the rusult o£ the last Fedpr_J eleLtion, and that before the 11P"';::; election our _\ct :;:;ho~~ld bo fra'?ed lin< , that would prevLJt dup[i(. te vo·mcr any undue inflatioa of tho rolls .. l\obody d0pr0--_ .des th-3 t.:tking of any \".Tong advantage of trw Act more than I do. I

ould have no plea LUG in holding a Sl'at in this C:hambN if I thought anything had boon done to g1, :~ 1nc a vo-~e to hich I ·,.as uo~ entitled. Em eY•. rv vote I am entitled to. ever,· vot~ of c-.;cry · adul: n1an or \Vo:nan liv~ i1:g in rny elf" ·tor0·· ~~. Yd1D qunliilcd ln· rP l­son o;' rcsidencr, chollld not be hind en= J iLJIY1

bci·lg ca~< -"irnplv L C£tU;:;;·- those persons Inn~,~ hr~\·e been OlL of tlH electorc1 i.O for a n rtail1 time, und con1i11g back find that thL y are disqu.dificd by an _\.ct ~uch ns is sugb~(!Fttd. rrhat it~ what. \YO w~\n: to OVO_'COlD(', and I think tha '- hon. 1n, r'1b '3 on the o ·_ lb:.r s~Je of th J sho,~ld join with us in · ceinc t h::t_: y~·c c t heJ(~ rir: hts cclu:u--in mt:_ki.._~g c~rt;._lin 11obody ,,1LJl L.._l debarred fto:::.l vo' i_JJ~. un~~-~ p. ni..: lC'gisL :ion he.._, be-::_·n a~.r ed to t~s a re~.H1..lt of the ~ \_ -;ral elec+io~l this rc 1r, \Ye ar::.· t-ol.J ~hat n great 2'Urnber of GF}Jiir :/ion, i _ ol, pl '- o tho l.:st elcr'-tion, and tl!at the 1 .• .::>-; t)t·r :.-.Jn,-, r-:on. Th. t h< .. s l~ .. '!1 pro-,. eel io ur:_trl:u'. I arn poi·fccLl--t; tti~;<lcd tlL. ·- if hon. 1n0rnL;~l's ·will look ~t :h~·· n:w.'.\C'~' in the 1;\.)1t of the evide1:ce p;·o­y) 1 d by ::\Ir. Oldha1n, 1 b=-, v. i~~ COlllO '-0 the couc:usi·>n that many of th{~ tln1)li( ~"tions tb;__ t did t; kc plnc,·: v:ere dno to onor on tho part of oiiici 'ls at tho polling-boo·~1 anc1 nG. b.­cans:; indi- ich:al··) Yotcd n1or-·· tl~c.n one". As a n;a:;· .. r of L:\{t; tho po.-c'~ion st.1nds this \Y.ty, anrl rt n1u·-" a.p1Jcdl to t:d1_', one of COlilmon IY:nsr. \Vl:Lt n1an is going to run t~-c risk ?f iln')\"_:_sc~uncnt for h.:tv-ing been found vot­rng n: oro th .n once in 'ln nlcf'l..ion? It clocs not aptJ- -, l t-) r.nyone's con1n1on s -~ntd th ",t they should be prrparr,,"} to rif;k it, and I an1 quite Eo. tidied, from the evidence we ha ye got L )ln -, ;1u Prinrip<ll Elcc~ornl Officer of the CGIY~.l110n"'.':ealth, thx~-. very lit>> '\\uS done m-.. thr,J c,·'c:c~ o·1 Lo ''"J.r ...J,Ht the ·,·,pc·rsir:.,s that hav·..> beL·:' ( '!St abJnl_ as to u·::.duc vo-ting or nndu.•? iL 1:ation of the roll,;. It f:,( ems io rne tLat nobody w"-~lts t-. debar people frorn cxcrci ~ng i b ir rights, bnt nt tlv~ st.\ mf' t inw I an1 r'-n·fcctly sau~~Ged that. if yo;'e ( ,-~rrv out the provisions. of this Bill as tlwv arc~ la.id down h0re no··v, wo shall be dolng an in­jus~ien ·(o a, gre2t 1nany persons in the conl­nlnuity. 'The y:• is =tnotl~c-r sic~~~ of the quc~~,.:-~on to b con [d, :·ed in com cct;o. with tl!is Bill ,,w] it is this: H appeal. to m: i h:c'·, t h~ rcb·)n that actio~1 is b:.i11g to ~;;:l'D is duo to a de·i';" to kerp this prrn2· off the Trcamr: bencL ~R .-.s l·n1g a::-J the pr·""-:.,--mt GoYf'r:nmpnt can. Th -.t ~ cmcd to bo the conc~rn of the b··-u .. nwnJh-·r for Bur:~·un1. But ''"e must r..:­H'lr-:nl'"'ct hat E.) G').Hl as the r'.::onl8 fc.pl ;hat t~e,F ~l v_ 1 d:d ?Hough~ cf ~ ~, ~'? arr on h2 ~ "-'o \ rnn1en b~.~ Cl.l'S, -,:--111 be the tin1c for ;.l· .. '.til. +-'J r~:_, Jgni'_-e :.l1at there is onlv o~1e par' ~v to h--: trausfe:rrc< there, n1:d nO pcnL'r on (_ a.rlh cnn nreYcnt u, E!OYir.'" to tlH~ ot hc!r sid<• of i h~ li::nl'_D -.··he.l tlr. pc'G:1~u &<:l decide. \Yo do not want to go until the

pcopk are prepart•d to acncpt our bzjs1ation, unci when that tm10 come, I am pcrfocily C{·:.:LJ.in that the chuug--:•s t.hat ha-.,-c taken place in thr 8on11H rn States1 th• bcneiic·,•nG legi·-lation that has been pns •. cd in \Y"otc·rn "\ustr.diil, i•1 South AuJCralia, c.nd"" , Sonth \\"ale 3, ar..d al:-o under dw CrJnHD.Ol1\,-calth Governrr!:.. 1:t will b~J rcl_Y -~{ J in Qu'·P' '-:aLJ. I ar:t not going· to sty for o;w mmLeut that p~nple \Y:lo hn..YG rt:prC_Olltlfl t~'(_, ( ·mnil')' On the Trcusury b:.nrh• ':i in tin-:~: gone by haxo n~·t done grod. It is imp0cHille for the:rn to b~· there 0-nd not to do eo'Hl\.G goJ,J, but wo ~<:~-~ th,•i: it is the. 1niniunun of f2'00d UJTilpared v.-ith the 1naxim.urn of ~ood 1shich th<~y would ob~ain fi·o~n ihi3 side of the liouso. ...:\. great cle:tl hDs bc,·n s.:id alv.<-Jt pascal Yociug. The hon. mernber for Tov, nsYillo \V .:s pointed on that matt-;· on a previous oc and tho pr~ "'".~nl Treasu.rer uLrJ 1nuu.e verY pointE•d rc1narlc; o_... tlv• s 1n1· L. l think that what tlu prunnt Tn asnrcr said H'cn rnir_;ht Y( :: ~l bn r; lO~:_•d here. On the 19Jl ?darch. 1·103. " Ii -, n~trd,'' yolu.i:nc 101, p~Lgc 22~, I fl:::::d he said--

,, I o_drnit. tl"lore luYC L ~t 1i.r bust-s iu connedic 1 .\ h th(; pvJi:1l vote .. ,

'l'ho&; th:~ [l bus< s that aro fighting nov,~. of ·:s~ in po;nrr- h t.h'' c vn-vai;n of -...:~'-lJ ·,r;, lCf'd -~'flj(>fJ th,Jt

1s 'l"CCJ· cJ on bo<h si:l, On thP south side of C.;.o riYcr I thin\ l:J,0ny frie~--~i.s ere c 'tl:£Ul~ ·~:l be.' 'Hf;C' in the opp( g c.>.rnps lH ~Ib3 \'\'Qre · .~~- 11 :\ ~..t should not l ~n-e been takt)n i'; "rying i.~J ~ ·~ure l,c~~.al ":otes. I ~,_no·, tL.~~ inc lC i11. t ~nt'~ e( ~·ta~;- s:vries vi:cre

rrb_ ut. 111;~ pLop~o -, h~r:1 nc.trly abo·•+- an c 'rauge::.Ht.· 1t l, ~.,;;pen me

. _ :l a n;~ n fm~ I had y( grc·at rf'gard, a1 ,~ if i:. hnd llO~· 'Cn for coi,; :~Jun on !_:J~h sicL:; "'.>.e .;:u;nld h,\Y0 bpr-.~1' for all tirne. F-ortun --~ely, the difference \vas ad­Jn· :-ed. I take 11other nuotat}ou fron1 the

l.rk-~ Lf the hnn. lTIC.'.:..lber a~ !Jage 225 of san1c \ ohune of '' :Hansard '' ~ "An~- ono ,~:ho has kno'' .::1 anything at

all ab011L the "\rork of the pc~ L l yote ktw,,;.. i he it is difliwlt enout,h under ptv·---·nt ('cr_lditions in the. c;Ly."

'l'hore i. anotlF r pain~ to y;hich I '-' ould like to refcl'. Not c:Jl,- l~o ~-lnd rhat mr:rh C'Yil C:lll arisP fr\J~il 'i:, bu~.- wo kLo·,~,- that the difficult\- whi-·h hon. ""-l~nlbf'·:"s ou 1~1is F: ·o o£ th:J ".tic-_lr.; b: YC :n. " urin pc ~tl yo· ':::>-s is '· ·ry r~uc 1 r tha,l on ·i h._' \._.\ l1c·, side. _·J..P:I' f~on1 thiq ~crlll">-'. l fhtdl 1J \.ith ~·no•hcr 111,-,horl "11lt, .c·,: Rn vote

ran Lo ,h0;,·_;eb~1.ss~',·.i .. :,-~- ''' -',. ·le so b.r a~: d_.; pos.:.. _ _ L do not ~ tkc L:: p::lrt~-·:; r1f';.' ;:\ in thiR In:.· tcr; I c11 mr O\YJl ( and it is tLi~: I tl1erJ' is no ho1,<~ c.ctting puri -:;- of ,·lt·c-i ions until ·we tako into c-1~ oidt•r ~tion the question of cornpuh:·Jry regie. ra io-1 and t.ho c ucstion of t ~)ll1l:~llsory \'-~j~in~r. Kov.T, we r 1.y ~. y tb~~- peopl clo not like co::.:,~)Ld jon. X mE' c~ us do. but thP; t:~ j·:o nc ~ ar: .:.\t ~· on thC' o::.t&.tnt· -l' Hlk 'vhid1 is no~ CD!, nu1sion. \Y c l1:1vc an in~;: an( o£ i: in our Lonli ,dsory n-tilit 1,:y _.c,-·yicc, Lnt '\\ .~ did rj_;Ji. hcs:1a:i" to ini.roL.u:.G t1~1.t s .. ..- ·tPnl, b-~{ ,,use \Y·.J knc·w th:::-t it 'Y\.:rn:d l (.:benefit · .. :J the cn:rllnlnni;~. \_nd I f:.. 1 if \. e r<-~Llp:~l PY<.:r:v ac1uh to

n ,::).-·--:: ·~ h~s lWHi~~ <:.:. __ : eL•c+ .._ ", : nd also 0~1 1h., ,, '·'' ,.· .:jlp· :!r ai ,to !vliing-luot.h, i 1-.~ in v.-h·,.h we can

:roUble l r1o not say, o~ cJun·j, , 1' ~t h8 yoto for :-nY nar.i­cuh.r p ,ri.:, lmt that he rr1nP~ Yo:l' or rDatH~ h~s ,-c.~-J iu£ornwJ or put i~.~ iu the l 0x ~,crid1Gut any

Jfr. Hu,r;lzam.l

ll32 Eledions Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amrndment B-ill.

mark on it. To vote is the highest duty he can perform to tho State, and It IS cs,ential that it should be dono to gPt a higher percentage o£ Yoting and also a clear system of voting. I know that this Yiew will not find favour with many people, but it seems to me that it is the only way, tho simplest way, and the Dheapest way of overcoming tho difficulty that we have to face. The Treaourer, when £peaking on this subject, in 1908, 'aid he Tegretted that the GDvernment did not take in hand the matter of minimising tho -ex­pense of elections. The expense can be mini­mised by the compulsory attendance of electois at tho polling-booth on election day, as candidates would not then have to employ 'Cabs and motor-cars to bring electors to the poll, and no advantage would be given to tho well-to-do mrcn in '~curing votes in that way. If the GoYernmont had dealt ·with this matter more heroically and more compre­hensively, and had recognised that a larger perc mtage of voting on election day is C'.sen­tial if we are to ascert<tin tho n etl opinions of the olecto:·s, they would haYe taken this matter in hand, and have dealt •vith it on the lines I have sugge,ted. There is another matter I should like to dwell upon, and that is the great plea which has been put fonYard for tho consideration of our women on elec­tion day. Many ·;,omen clo not want to be worried by election matters on polling-clay. It has been scientifically proYed thtit women in a certain condition should not be called upon to \Yorry thcm,~lvos for at least three months bofore the happening of the event, and for some time afterwards, but that they should be kept in the greak;t quietude, so that their progeny may be h~·althy .an.d strong. I maintain that worrying our women about election matters at such a critical time is not doing the right thing by them, and for that reason I think the question of the postal vote for women at such a time should not be considered. I hold that the postal vote should be eliminated from our election system until v e get a class of people who will Yalue the vot~ as the highest political privilege thev can posse,,,.;, and ''ho will be prepar'-'d to exercise it when opportunit;v offers. \Yith regard to the absentee vote, I cannot of course speak from personal experi­ence abc,\tt wlnt happens far away in the country, but we have the eYidcnce of mem­bers who are familiar with conditions of life in the inland districts that many men have ridden 70 n1ikQ., and even a. groab?r diste1nce, in order to n·cord their votes. Such things make o'1e feel that no matter what restric­tion; may be imposed by this measure, and no matter what obstacles may be placed in the way of Yotors, men will not hesitate to face difficulties in mnnoction with polling if. theY hanc ;·otrs. The men in th-:-· \Ve··.tern country will take whateYer steps are neces-' ar-.- to votn for tho candidates thev consider most mi: :1bk to r''present them in Po,rlia­ment. The Premier was most determined in refusing to concede to tho inmates of charit­nble in.-'·itnti0ns tho rig-ht to yoi·e. The hon. mon11"""'r for \Varrego, 1.:vhen spo.aking y{'st-er­day. said there oro many men in Dunwich Who h.ad fr'Cil \Yell to do in tilllf'S gone by, thoug-h they were now forced by adYeree cir­-cumstance'; to take refuge in Dnll'·-ich. There L one m m there who is a highly intelligent man of high character-a man who will com­pare favonrably in character and ability with the very best members of this House; and yet, simply because he has had to accept

C Mr. Thtxham.

assistance from the State, that man IS de­barred £rom voting. I say that such a man is a worthy citizen, and deserves to exercise the franchise. It may be urged that if a vote is concoclod to men of that character, who arc inmates of Dunwich, it would also have to be conceded to derelicts in the insti­tution. In reply to that, I would point out that derelicts outside Dunwich are placed on the same level ns far as the franchise is con­corned as men who are in eYery respect worthy and reputable citizens. Further, I would remind hon. members that many a man has become an inmate of the Diaman­tina Hospita.l because he has contracted con­sumption or miner's phthisis in serving his country, and that the simple fact of his becoming an inmate of that institution de­bars him from voting. If you were to go among the people in that institution, you would find that there arc included among the patients men and women who are in the best and high• -;t sense of the ''· ocd gentlemen and ladies. Some of the patients are men with a univenity education, and yet because those men have fallen on s.ld-not evil­times, they are deprived of the franchise. I contend that thnt is a serious reflection on a people who boast o£ their humanity. I sincerely hope that before the Bill goes through members on both sides will recog­nise that it is our duty to give people every opportunitv to exercise the franchise, and that we might not to place a single bar in the wuv of their getting their names on the roll 01: of voting on election day. The nomadic population, tho shearers. of whom members on both sides of the Home have spoken so highly, ought to be considered, and thev should not be debarred from voting merelv "because thev have been absent from their 'electorate for "a few months in order to r-un a livelihood. Until we recognise that the men who have done and are doing the pioneering work of this Stute are e!igi~le for the franchise, we shall never do Jusbce to that worth,- class of citizens. I hope that the Bill will "be so radically altered before it leaves this Chamber that it will agrc" in tone with the demoeratic feeling which we all profess to have on the matter of the franchise.

Mr. LAND (Balonnc) : Bcfo_re this dPl1ate comes to a close I desire to say a few words on the Bill. I am perfectly satisfied that if the Government start"d out with th' express ot-jert of disfranchising a grc.1t number of people in C)ueensbnd, they could no.t have Eucceedrd bettPr thDn thf"'Y will Go in pa~sinr; this Bill in the form in which it i.; now l-dore the House. 1'\fy vin· e, after carefully reading the Bill, have bcC'n impressed upon me from tho rt.'nrlnoint of a great number of ll' ople that I represent~~ that .is, the country r1\"\ople. By SOtnC lllOnlbcrs on the Govern­ment sirlo they arc called "wanderers" a;nd "nomads," and, in some insi-anccs, cyen worse name' than that. Rcfcrrinc: to the floatinp; populaticn. I can nf,•ly r.ay that tlv· gr<'at 1najority of tJ~om ,'~rc pioneers of tho \Y cst.f'rn country. Supposing a. ''an -,-·ith money went out in the earlv days, took up land and f:tocked it, aud lie v.-as nnabJe to gL't labnur, it would haye been impossible for him to rnak._\ a succc .:; of tho undcrt::t}:ing. Com~o­qucntl;~-. I look upon the floctinf;· population as of as much importance to this State as the settlers. Take a shearing-shed at 'hearing time-. ThNe mav be as manv a.s 200 ''10n employed during- ehearing, inclli.din- f..hcrrrors, shed hando, and ,:]nrs, but if you call0d

Elcvtions Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1133

rou:nd at that station a day or two after shearing is completed, you "ould find, per­haps, only half a dozen men there. That go:•o to provo that it is the floating pnpula­tion that does the work of the district. Per­haps it is quite true that they a;·e nomads or wanderers, but many of them are married 1neu, ancl have ,..-rive.:; and fan1iliPs in somo other district. The very fact that tho Bill al~o'- s any man or wo1nan to become an elector irrespective of their calling, is suffi­cwnt proof ihat thev should be allowed to vole on election day.- L:nder this Bill it will be very hard to gd on the roll, and, after huvin•.: got on tho roll, it is verv hard t<J keep there, and very hard for mm1.y of those v.ho are on the roll to be able to vote on Plcction day. Thoro are many people who are not in their o·.vn district on election dav and thBy should be able io vote, no TI:;atter where they arc on election day. L:nder the absentee vote, I suppose, we had a bigi('er percentage vote than ever we had before. In fact, so many people voted that it frightened the Gm-ernmcnt and their supporters. The abwntcu vote& came ir, so long afto1 the elec­tion, and in such numbers, that they fright­ened the Government, and my opinion is that tlw Govcr,nmcnt think that, if they do not Cilter tho Act and make the provi­sions 1nor? stringent., many more 1ncn and W?men will vo.to on elt>ction day than they Wish. In the country districts a great num­ber of people cannot arrange to get to the polling-hooth on election day, but a big per­centage of men and women are able to record their votes by mean" of the absentee vote, and I am against tho repeal of the absPnh'e vote fo.r that reason. I notice that the posta.l vote is to be substituted for the absentee vote, but great prc>caution is being taken so that no one but those who are entitled ;;re allowed to vote. In the country di,tricts the po,tal vote will be of wry little u~e indeed. \Yo are told that the postal pro­visions v:ill be availed of to a greater extent in the conntr., than anvwherP else. but it will be almost impo.ssiblc for electors to use tho postal vote, as thc>y will be unable to get their application form sent in and get the postal vote back in the time at their disposal. Consequently, the postal vote, as provided in the Bill, is not Df much use to those people who it is supposed will use it. \s reg-ard' qualification, I think that twf'h-e months is too lon<, for a rnan to re"'ide in the country before bcin~ entitled to apply to get on the roll. Mauy people come from the other States. and under tho provisions of tlw Bill thcv will have t.a remain here twelve months before they become (Jualific d to apply to get on the roll. I think six months is quito sufficient. If we take into considPration the fact that a person has to b0 two month.< in a district, after having been twelve months in the StatB, before he C'an applv to get on the roll, it might mean fiftcpn months and oven more in some parts of Quef'n,,land bc>fore they are entitlca to vok. They might porhape, be eighteen months in the counti·; before the:<· are able to get a vote. and t think six months and one month is quito sufficient. I do not think there is am- harm in canvassing on election day. provided it is carried on properly; in fact, I think canva'B­ing at our polling-booths is more a benefit to the public than otherwise. J\Iany people are not quite sure about the c-ystem of votin:;. and in manv cases a number of votes ha\·e to be recm:ded on different subjects, so I think it is a good thing to allow those who are there to tell the people about the methods

of votin_g, and give them their numbers, and so on, m order to ,ave time. I haYe taken part in can;;assing rnany tin1es n1yscl£, at different pollini('-booths, and it helps t<J pre­vent delay. I do not think it is wise to have too many restric.tions. In rBiercnce to dis­turbances at public meetings, I have seen so1ne ro,vdy 111eetings in the country dis­tr·icts, and, in my experience, most of the trouble has been houg'ht o.n by the candi­dates themselvp·,. In the early day.-, before there was any Labour party at all, there were great disturbances at mauy of lhc public meetings. At that time, when blackthorns "ere first introduced into Quoeusland, it would not do to be too ready to throw men out of tho n1eetings. _\ great deal nHJrO con~ sideration should he shov.·n by tho candidates, who, if they would not induho in w many pcrsonaiities, would get on much better than tll'oy do at the prBsent time. I am of opinion that it is thl·ir own fault. \Yhen we g:•t into l)o.mmittee I would like to sec the rc·,ic!Pnce qualification defint'd. I know that, in many cases, rBgistrars in the past haYe held d1fferent views with re;;ard to residlmce. I have kno·.o,·n a gn:,t number of electors v:ho were placed on tho roll for hotels in different towns. :Ylany of the elt,ctors-e"pecially the {!oating pc:1lation--rnake a co,untry town for tho time being their horne. They have pcr­nwnent honH.:-s in other districts, but \vhen the,- are aw.'v from their own homes, follo>'­ing- their callings, they haYc to makB some place their home, and if a man gets his letters addressed to him at an hotel in a iown, that should be con,.ith•recl his rP,idPnce. 1 hoard the Home Secretary interject the other night that he knew of a great number of electors who claimed "lll hotPl as their resi­dence. 'That is a good thing. They ma:v be in an hotel which mav not accommodate more than thirty o.r forty people, and perhaps 120 people claim that hotel as tlwir place of resi­dence, as it is their abode while they are in tov·n. It is only a fair thing that people should be allowed to claim a hotel or a coarding-house in a country town as their rosidl'nCl'. Under the old Act the regis­trars ver;,~ often presided at annual revision courts, which I rlo not think is a proper thing. 'The registrar should not revise, as it were, his own work. Some independent person, such as a magistrate, as far as possible. c;ho.uld be deputed to preside over annual revision courts. I think there should be an amend­ment in the Elections Tribunal Act. I ha vc known n1anv men in tho past '"'ho have con­tc steel an election before the Elections Tri­bunal. and thov have been practic~.ll:;' ruined. I think that. where a dispute arises, the judge would be quite sufficient to d<>cid<e the matter, Prople should not be put to the heavy cost of contesting an election before the Elections 'Tribunal. If this Bili passes in its present form it will, in my opinion, giYe no more satisfaction to the people of Queensland than ,-h"t the Licensing Act did last year.

::\Ir. C.:AI:'-JE (B01ren) : I should like to express my approval in relation to the second readino: of the Bill. I think that this Bill, ham<'d as it is. is a verv o-ood measure to bring before the House, although I hope that, before it pas'e'. amendments will be intro­rluccd which will add matoriailv to the advan­tages which the country will gain. It is -urely our obje0t in introducing' legislation of this kind to endeavour to bring about a state of affairs under which the correct Pxpression of opinion of doctors is obtained. In saying the electors, I mean thos<' pPrsons who are justly and reasonably entitled to vote at an

Mr. Caine.]

1134 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

election. \Vith regard to enrolment, the first thing is tG see that persons are put o.n the roll who should be tbere, and it is just, or almost, as important to see that no one who is not entitled to be on the roll sho.uld be there. I think this measure contains very good provisions. First of all, the matter of residence is clearly defined, and I think that that i'• a very excellent provision. Y\' e want to see persons who have some stake in the country, whether it is in conncc:ion with their business or in regard to tho labour they arc doing-that, practic.tlly, the right of voting is confined to these people. IV e do not want people '' ho have no stake in thu counh"y, or who are moving from :State to Sbte. to get on the roll. \1-P do not Yant to wide'< our fr<.Lnchis~ in that direction. I do ll{JL

think any hon. memlwr would wish to do th.·,t. \Yo clo not want tourists to ct on the roll. It is a Yary rnatu·ial and ·, ,__,fy useful provil:lion that cny per.:on rnust LaY<~ resit!ecl in the St.ttc for twelve months. That is a rcasona bh~ reriod for ~., man to be in thr, St:tte b·•foro he ha. a vote. He wan's to know som0thing of the affairs of the ::lh1e. If a 1nan has an interc"lt in a co1npany, h"! would not like the affairs of the company to be de~idE>d bv pon.ons outside who !mo.: nothing· aho.ut" the companv. Just in the same way the affairs of the State should only he contwllPd by p8rsons v·ho have some know­ledge of the State.

:',Jr. GILLIES: By persons who have a stake in the country.

::ilr. CAI::'\E: By p0rsons \Yho have a stake in tlw sense I mean. \Vhothor theY are busi­ne'S men or working men, thev ,.J1ould have an intere'l in the country. ·The question may ari~'"" that a man n1ay have res~dcd pr;­viouslv in tho State for years. and that he may have gono avvay and rebuned again. I would like to see an amendment exempt­ing such a man from the twelve months' residence. With regard to the two months' residence in an electorate, I certainly think that is a very good principle. \Ve know perfe<'tly well that in manv cases the in­terest of a man in the State rests on his interc~~t in a particular electorate to a o-reat extent. Further, is it reaoonable that ~men who have no interest in an electorate should como along and s>~ amp that electorate? I certainlv think that is not reasonable. I grant tl1at difficulty may arise in cases, but I do not agree with one hon. member on the other side who referred to carriers and drovers. As a rule, those men have a home somewhem; and I take it shearus have a home, as a rule. There mav be an odd case where a 1nan rnay reside, a; one hon. metnR ber on the other side said, for one month in one electorate, and one month in another electorate, and so on. I would ask that bon. member what electorate a man like that should be enrolled for? Is he to have his choice of e lectoratcs? Is he to remain on the roll aftr·r he le,vcs 9 If "O, he is given an advantage over the man who lives all the time in that electorate.

Mr. McComL\CK: There are hundreds of men in your own electorate who will be dis­franchised by this Bill.

Mr. CAIKE: I do not think so. There ma'" be cases of men who come from New South \Vale'' for three or four months and then go back again.

Mr. McCORliiACK : Plenty of them stay for six months.

Mr. CAINE: In all probability, they are on the roll in New South Wales. w that they will not be disfranchised. What right

[.Lifr. Caine.

has a man who moves rapidly from electorate to electorate tD get on tho roll for any of those electonates? It appears to be the con­tention on tho other side that he should have his choice of electorates, and that he should remain on a roll as long a,, he likes. If that is so, what i ~ the use of providing th.,t, \;hen a man leaves an electorate, he ."hall bo removed from the electoral roll of that electorate? It would be absolutely un­fair that he should have a vote for an elec­torate in which he no longer re<idos. I think the provision that every application for enrolment uust be lodged at least forty­eight hours before the sitting of tho court is a very reasonable one. There should be O)J!J•)rtunity for inquiry b:;· the court. Again, the provi~:ion for the publication in some no~-~ ,,papl·r of all cla~ms for enrolnH .. nt is undouutcdh· a valuable one. It means a li• tl- expense, but it will do a great deal of good. It has bc<?n urged by some bon. me,ubers on the other side that it is a very serious matter that ladies' .age-; should be disclosed. I wo•dd nck han. members who rai · ,, an objection to suggest something by \• ay of amendment. lYe might omit the age of tho lady, and say that the information could be obh1inN! in the electoral office, if required. But I hardly think that hon. mom­ben can seriously raise that as an objection to the system. It is just as necessary to make provision for getting names off the roll as for getting them on the roll, and in that respect I think the Bill does not go far enough. \Yo v.ant more frequent revision courts. :!YL own idea is to have a half-2 ''arly revision court in place of the present annnal rovision courts. .A .. t any rate, there should be more opportunities gh·en for look­ing into the state of the roll. If we want a full roll, we also want a clean roll. \Vhich­ev-cr side of the House we may be on, we '.Vant to se•.1 that those who vote are justly entitled to vote. The hon. member for Bu­rancla referred to the matter of compulsory registration and compulsory voting. To my mind, the electoral system will not be com­pldc nntil we have it introduced. It may not. appeal to most hon. members, but I think it will do good, although, in the first in,,+ 3nce. it may go against the party which brings it about. Having considered tJ:e matter of enrolment, the next quE>shon rs '' ho is to vote, and the additional questions in the Bill. mch as that regarding the <?lector's agP, are likely to prove very useful. So also is the nrovisron that the Ekcrions Tribunal can dis-allow the vote of ant- person who is found not to be entitled to have a vote. Several hon. members have sugge,ted the ad­visableness of introduc;ng the elPctor's right svstem. To mv mind, there are more dis­a'dvanbges coniwcted with that system than adv-::tntagp,.-, and, at any rate, it would be dangerous to introduce it without due con­sirlera+ion. The system has been tried in other States, and it has been abolished. \Ve should now consider how we shall see that everY 1wrson who is entitled to vote gds a vote: Some years ag·o a very reasonable provision was made bv which postal voting was allowed. It was found that, like other systems, it was very open to abuse; but, strange to say, it W3S decided that becausA the sv"'tern was liable to abuse-as almost all • vste;,1s are-the best wav to attack the ~buse was to abolish the system. That was an unwise proceeding. I thought so at the time, and I think so still, and I am very pleased indeed to see that it is now proposed to reintroduce the principle,

Elections Acta [3 SEPTE:.\IBER.] Amendment Bill. lli55

and enable a man or a woman who is ill, or who io ,o far from a polling-booth that he or she cunnot reasonably be expected to attend, to vote by post. I grant that limitations are needed, and I hope that every limitatior; that is nece~sary will be placed upon th1s method of exercising the franchise. But I hope to see this provi-,ion rcn1ain in the Bill, be~ause I for one think that it is going to do a g1:em de:cl c,f good. It is ridiculous to hear statemeut made thm: pcrcons who arc ill will bG too ill to rec=>rd their votes. It is not neccssar·; to go into the qll<''tion at anv lencrth to se:e th<lt there will be a great · perc~ntao-e of people, like tho,-=e in hospitals, who in be able to r-"' <lrd their votes if a postal vote is granted. There must be some who will not be able to vote, I grant.

:Mr. FoLEY: \Yhv not have a booth for the hospitals? ·

Mr CAIKE: I understand that they do have ~ polling-booth at the hospitab. I see no obJectiOn to that at all. But it will mct•n that we shall have to have a larcre number of polling-booths, bec'.lu•e there :re private hospitals, and there are a great many people who are ill who do not go into either private or public hospitals. I submit that the idea of givil]g them a postal vote is an excellent one. Then, again, there are a numbur ,,f people who live at a great distance from a polling-booth. Why should they be excluded from voting?

Mr. HARDACRE: How are you going to make it secret?

::\lr. CAINE: According to the provisions of the Act, there is nothing to prevent the postal vote from being absolutely secret. Just because people act in an illcgal way, that is no reason why we should wipe out the system altogether. Persons are 110t supposed to se0 how other people record their votes, but \VO know that they do see at t1le present time, and it is ag-ainst the law to do that. Because such a thing as that happens in some · instancu, that is no reason why we should abolish it altogether. '!'here is one difli­cultv in connection ith the postal vote, whwh has bnen referred to by the Premier, and we understand by an interjection that was made that an amendment will be intro­duced to meet that. According to the Bill at the pn, -ent time, it will be difficult for a man or a woman absent from his or her electorate to g-et a postal vote, and we want to make tho Bill so that it will be quite easy for them to obtain the postal vote and record it at an election. I am g-lad to hear that an amendment to bring that about will be introduced by the Home Secretary.

:Mr. FoLEY: It would be unfair to your electorate.

Mr. CAINE: It will have an unfair effect <Jn the electors generallv if it is not amended. Our object is to get a true expression of the opinion of the people. \V e do not care one way or the other whom the people vote for so long a' we know it is their true opinion. \Ye arc just as anxious on this side as hon. mcmbBrs on the other side of the House to see that electors have an opportunity of recording their true opinions at the poll. Hon. nH"nbers onnosite throw insinuations across the Chamber that we are on a dif­ferent plane altogether to them with refer­·ence to this matter. They say that whatever we do in connection with a measurB of this kind we have some ulterior motive in doing it. I do not say that there is any ulterior

motive behind the object of the hon. members opposite, but I claim that we are just as :!lterested in making this Bill a good Bill for the people as hon. members opposite are. A clifticulty that has been pointed out is whether there ,,·ill be any more polling­bGotlh prGvided. I sincerely hope that there will be additional polling-booths. I see no reason vchy there should not he every oppor­tunih· giwn for O''tablishing fre,h polling­booths wherever they are roquir:•d. I feel sure that no difticulty will arise in that con­ne<:tion. Then there is the que.tion of a C? ndidate dying before an election takes place, and a new election being ordered. \Ve know that such cases as that have happened, end it is a matter of great importan .. o to th,l electors. It is only right that there o.hould be a new election, because, if a candi­date diPd, the other man would be elected without obtaining any opinion at all from the electors. I mifl'ht instance a Labour elec­tor,tr•' in tho \Vest. Suppose a Labour and a Liberal werfl running for a Labour con­stituency in the \Ye·,t, and the Labour candi­date dies. \Vhat would the Labour members say about the Liberal being returned to Par­liament? It would be ridiculous. Taking thn opposite case, it would be equally ridi~u­lous. That is not one of tho main provisions of the Bill, but it is a very useful addition, indeed. I think that tho idea of just declar­ing the nominations by publication rather than declaring them in a public way, as was the case in the past, is an improvement. \Vith rr gard to the way electors arc called upon to vote by placing an "X" against the name of tho candidate they want, instead of crossing- out the name of the candidate they don't want, I think that the innovation is a g-ood one, more particularly as it will bring it into line with the system of voting in con­nection with Federal elections. Another useful innovation which I would like to have seen, and which perhaps is not so important now that we have decided to put an "X" against tho name of the candidate we want, is to have only the surnames of the candidates on the ballot-paper, except where the surnames are the same. Under the present law, a pre­siding officer has to put his initials on every ballot-paper, but there is a provision in the Bill to do away with the initialling of the ballot-papers by the prPsiding oflicPr. That is an improvement, because ballot-papers have been declared informal in the past when the presiding oflicor neglected to put his initials on the back. There is one serious matter which I do not see provided for, and that is, that, in the event of a ballot-raper being destroyed, a fresh ballot-paper will be issued. I think a provision should be inserted in the Bill whereby a fresh ballot-paper should be provided in tho event of a ballot-paper being- destroyed. The system of compulsory preferential and contingent voting is an im­portant one, and should certainly be inserted in this Bill.

Mr. THEODORE: It will rendm a number of .votes informal.

Mr. CAIKE: It may render a small num­ber informal, but at the present time a large number of ballot-papers are absolutely informal, because, when there are three candidates running and the contingent .vote is not· used, then the persons voting for the loweet candidate aro absolutely disfmnchised, as these electors do not r:ive thPir opinion regarding him at all. A great deal less harm would be done by having compulsory con­tingent voting, because it would ob.viate the

ll!r. Caine.]

ll36 Elections Acts [ASSElVIBL Y.] Amendment Bill.

necessity of having two elections. To leave the system as it is, without providing for a second election, is really making it useless.

~lr. THEODORE: The optional contingent vo •. mg system 1s a good one.

:VIr. UAINE: The optional system is not a good one. Take any business transaction; we. have often heard of an exhaustive ballot bemg taken. 'There are repeated elections, unt1l one man gets an absolute majoritv In the case of elections we should have a s:;,~tcm ?f oompu!s.ory contingent voting, and" then 1t w11l obv1ato the nccessih of haviniT more than ono election. The V\:hole thing b would be done at once.

}1r. THEODORE: The contingent vote is used now. Members have boon elected on the contingent vote. . Mr. CAI;\fE.: But very frequently the con­

tmgent vote 1s not used at all, an<l that shmvs that the electors are not using their \'Otes completdy. \V o want them to record their votes completely. With re"'ard to the Elc'Ctions Tribunal, the Bill proposes to do away \dth the system of electing members of Par;iamont as assessors. I think that that ll"O!Josul is a very good one. Something has been sa1d abo':'t tho provision compelling a man to dcpos1t £200 on .appealing to the Elections Tribunal being too high alto­gether. L'nder the pre•r,,nt lmv the man appealing to tho Elections Trib~nal has to deposit £100, and he knows he runs the risk of losing that £100, and another £100 as well, if he loses his case. vVo know that when J, man loses his case he has to pay that amount, or else be in debt to that extent. There is no objection whatever to makin"' the ~mount £200. So far as the Labour party lS concerned. they w1ll have no trouble what­ever in raising £200 to take a case to the Elections Tribunal. There is far more diffi­cult; on the Liberal side to raise it. There is n;:> difficulty in raising £1,000 on the Labour s1dc, 1t seems .to me. At any rate, it is

adnsablo to havr; a subtantial [7.30 p.m.] sum that will act as a deterrent

of. what other.< ise "auld ,imply be ~ pen···cubon of hen. mem!Jcrs. Now, I :rotrce that according to the Bill provision IS mad'>. that not only may a judge sit in an Elcdwns Tnbunal and hear the procccd­!ngs, but also ': barrister of five years' stand­mg. ;\[ow.' w1thout saying anything what­over agawst members of that honour­e.l~:e profession-which I should certainly not Wlf·h to do for one momcnt-I think that even n1ombers of the lt>g·al profo"\·ion­althou~h I may be ?ontradictod-are human, .and that even barnsters take an interest in political affairs; thcrc>forc, I do not think 1t \Vould be reasonable, under the circum­stances, to appoint one of those "'entlemen to sit in cases of that nature. \Ve ~vant men of experience-judicial experience-who have strug<;'lod as mucl1 as possible to keep them­seh·ps hee from political questions, and I, for one. would very much regret to see the measure passed as it stands at present in that r(h.ped. I think we would have no difficult;.· in getting the judicial business of the co~mtr.v. done by the judges, and if a':' actmg JU~ge has to be appointed. let h1m he appomted to <lc>al with work of another nature. I think that if we have the expenence and the absence of bias of a judge on the Elections TribunaL we shall be very :nueh better. off. I notice later on that there 1s a prov1s10n b:v wh1ch a judge must sit alone-without the appearance of counsel.

[Mr. Caine.

Now, that provision does not appeal to me. The judge 1s appointed to hear the case. It is rocommondod by the Bill, and I think it is. a good thing. One reason for it is that the· tribunal will haYo the advantage of his. judicial training; but at the same time, when a judge sits on other cases, he is very glad to huve a legal man to assist him. It is a very gTeut help to him. He would not care t ' sit without the assistance of counsel, and I contC'nd that in this case thoy must be of very grcut assistance to hin1 nJso. I have no time to cover the matters which oven now the judge will have to deal with-matters. of law-because if there were no matters of law to be decided, why is there provision for an appeal on a question of law? There are undoubtedly very many matters with which he might have to deal with of that nature . I notice that affidavits may be received, and that witnesses have to be called, and then, again, there is the general cross-examination of witnesses. An appeal is only on a ques­tion of law. The matters of fact have been deci<led once and for all. I say that the <lecision will not have the same weight, and the judge will be very much handicapped, if he has not the assistance of counsel. It is argued that the abonce of counsel will save cxpens(,, but cvcn on the score of expense alone I do not think the proposal will be effective. I think, on th':' other hand, that expense may only be mcroased, bc>cause it mav be found that the case will not stop .n."t the decision of the judge. and that an appeal will be made, when the assist­ance of counsel can, of course, be obtaine<l. But, unfortunately, according to the Bill as it now is, onlv a question of law can be dt><tlt with on· appeal. I conten<l that this is distinctly an important matter, and I hope that what I may call tho almost natural prejudice of tho layman towards the Ia wyer should not be allow<:>d to enter into the .questi~n, because, to my mind, the ex­cluewn of counsel from the tribunal will be

·injurious, not only to the candidate 'but also to the electors, who in this case, ·and in every other ca ... e. arc the persons to be considere<l. As I montion<:>d previously in this House, it seems to me that provision should be made that, wh':'re there is no fault on the part of the canchdate. and a case has been brought and fought out, and it is apparent to the judge that there was n<'od for the case, in conse­quom·e of tbe fault of a returning officer or a presiding officer, he may in his dis­cretion recommend that the co,cts should be paid to one or both parties out of the cc:r:solidated revenue. I c_ontend that pro­nswn should be made m the Bill to enable him to do so. It appears to me that if the judge certifies that the case has Lcen broug-ht through no default on the part of thr· party, it is only fair and reason­able to award the costs up to. say, £200 to one or both parties. I notice that one or two roforcnces have been made bv members on the other sid" of the House to "which I would just like to call attention in conclusion. I notice. that tl~o leader of the Opposition, r~ferm;.g to his own C?ol and dispassionate dlReusswn of th~ Blcctrons Act· "\mcnciment Bill, expressed the hope that han. members -pre,umably referring to hon. members on this side of the House-would discuss the matter in the same cool and dispassionate way. Tho hon. member, of course> did not wish to insinuate that th0y would ~ot do so, but I take it that we on this side are just as able to discuss a question in a dispas·

Ele.~tions Acts (3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1137

sionate and impartial way as hon. members on th.·ct si·de of the House, even the hon .. and learned leader. Something has been said about the intimidation of electors. But can anybody lle serious in talking of intimidation of Labour electors? If they meant intimi­dation of Liberals there would be something in it. The Labour man flaunts his colours, has no fear whatever, but the Liberal man­particularly if he is .a business man-is afraid to open his mouth, unless he talks" Labour." There is nothing whatever in a suggestion of that kind. Then we are told that we are going to prevent electors from exercising their votes. We are going to do nothing of the kind. We are going to try to prevent people who are not entitled to be on the roll or who have no votes from purporting to record their votes. We are told that we are going to object to people getting on the roll and to people remaining on the roll, and we do not have any hesitation in saying that we do not want to have people on the roll who ought not to be there, and that if there are any on the roll who should not be there we want to get them off .as quickly as possible, and use our best efforts to do so.

Mr. GILLIES: And to keep them off.

Mr. CAINE: And to keep them off until they are entitled to get on, certainly. We are told also that we are attacking the prin­ciple of "one ·adult one vote." I think we are only standing up for it. What is the position? \Ve want our rolls clean, and if they are not clean what is the value of a man's vote?

Mr. THEODORE : You are perpetuating the property qualification.

Mr. CAINE : I was not referring to the property qu·alifiootion-let us have one thing at a time. But with regard to that I do not hesitate to say that I consider an .amendment is desirable. But that is going away from what I am dealing with.

Mr. GILLIES : Will you move an ·amend­ment?

Mr. CAINE: We are speaking of "one adult one vote "--one thing at .a time. One has only to consider the position, "What is the value of a man's vote?" He is only one in so many, and if you are going to allow others who should not be there to share his privilege with him, it only requires a simple calculation to see that the value, even of the vote of the good hard-working man, is so much less than it should be. In trying to get the roll clean we are trying to work in the interests of persons entitled to be on the roll, be they workers or be they other people, because we are practically enhancing the value of the vote of each. Now, I say that we are in the measure now being introduced doing our best for the electors generally, ·and I hope that the Bill. with amendments of the kind suggested, will be carried. There are just one or two other remarks made by hon. members to which I wish to refer. One was that the object of this Bill was to prevent Labour getting into power. Now, surely nothing is farther from our object. We are just as willing to let Labour get into power ns a.nybody, so long .as they get there legiti­mately, .and so long as they represent the true expression of the people of Queensland. And I, for one, say that so long as we can get that true expression we will never have them here, and it is only by having the rolls un­clean--

1913-4 A

An OPPOSITION MEMBER : That is a shame-ful thing to say. '

Mr. CAINE: I have one other condition. It is only in that way and by voters not re­cording their votes that the Labour party will ever get into power. We are told that. we are afraid to face the great court of the­people of Queensland. We are not afraid if we are to face the people on the merita of this Bill, for we will certainly receive a most favourable verdict. If we have to face them at an election on thE' franchise as it will be under this Bill, and the opinion expressed by the electors be unfavourable to us-which do not fear-we are prepared to accept the answer we receive.

Mr. BARBER (Bundaberg): I de,ire to make a few remarks on this Bill. I must say that the hon. member who has just re­f ~med his seat, although he appc·ared to be in P:trnest and spoke with evident sincerity, seemed to be very much disturbed in hia mind because he thought it would be pos­sible to keep on the electoral rolls the names of people who ought not to be there. The hon. member talked a very great deal about people having a stake in the country, but I noticed particularly that he made no refer­ence at all to the old days, when certain individuals had as many as twelve and four­teen, and, in the case of one individual, seventeen, votes in different electorates. We have heard some most remarkable state­ments from members on the other side dur­ing the course of the debate on this Bill. First of all, we had the usual breezy and characteristic speech of the Home Secretary, who placed this measure before the House as the very last thing in electoral re' orm. According to the han. gentleman, the Bill was absolutely perfect; but since it h.ts been under discussion, the hon. gentleman nr.d his chief have announced that it is their in­tention to accept certain amendments. \Vhat­ever may be the result of this measure as far as affecting the next general election is concerned, I am of opinion that the object in introducing it was to prevent as far as possible a large number of men in different electorates from exercising the franchise. I know that that statement will be contra­dicted, but it appeared to me at the time the measure was introdnced that the Govern­ment were in a state of blue funk over the result of the recent Federal election.

The HolliE SECRETARY : Will the hon. mem­ber define " blue funk " ?

Mr. BARBER : The Home Secretary is the best judge of that matter in this House.

Tho HoME SECRETARY : Do I suffer from it? Mr. BARBER: Because the hon. gentle­

man gets into a state of blue funk more often than any other member in the House. In my opinion, the result of the polling in eonnection with the Federal campaign in May last simply gave the Government and their Tory supporters such a shock that they felt it necessary to cast about for some means or method of defeating tho Labour party at tho next election. Of course, I quite admit that it is the duty of the Government to keep the Opposition out of office. At the same time, I would point out that the Oppo­sition, or Labour party, have always had adult suffrage in the forefront of their pro­vramme. 'Ve have heard on several occa­sions during this deb.ate members on the other side claiming that the Liberal Govern­ment gave adult franchise to the people of Queensland. Are we to understand that hon. members who expressed that sentiment mean

Mr. Barber.]

U38 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Biil.

that the present Government gave adult suffrage to Queensland? I know that that is the inference which han. members wish electors outside to draw from their remarks, because, at tho last general election, the party at present m office issued a pamphlet containing a kind of Liberal programme headed, in very large type, "What the Lib­eral Government have dono." From one en,l of Queensland to the other it was stated bv the 'Tory candidates that this Governmen-t had granted adult suffrage to Queensland. Nothing could be further from tho truth. " Hansard " simply rooks ith speeches and vote" given by members on that side of tho Houso in opposition to the principle of adult suffrage. The record in " Hansard " show,; that prDtty well tho majority of the mem­ber" who to-da, sit on the Government side of tho House "have opposed adult >uffrage over and over again. If we take the per­sonnel of tho Cabinet, it cannot be .,aiel that this is the Government v. hich gave the coun­t!'Y adult l·uffrago, L•,cause, with the excep­tiOn of tho Premier and the Minister for Educatiun, all the other members Df the Cabinet were oppo•8d to adult suffrage. Tho Minister for Lands certainly gave a. sort of half-hearted support to the adult ,uffrag·e principle when it was introduced by the Morgan Government, but the Minister for Railways and the Treasurer-in fact, four out of the six members of the Government­who were in opposition at the time, oppnsed adult suffrage.

Mr. KESSELL: Who gave manhood suf­frage?

Mr. BARBER: Is the han. member's abysmal ignorance of such a character that he does not know what Government wa, in office when adult suffrage "as passed in this House? The han. member for Port Curtis, in common with other mem­bers, went round the country at the last election, and from every platform in the Port Curtis electorate he told the people that the present Government had given adult suffrage to Queensland.

Mr. KESSELL: I did not say any such thing; YO'cl are mad to 'ay that.

Mr. B"\RBER : Let the han. member go through his .cpoeches and read what he rDally did say. vYhy, even the historic Ananias a1mo··,E p:de into insignificance cornpared ·with tho han. member in some remarks that he made. Tho han. member is endeavouring to take the place of the political _\nanias in this Assembly. Is he qualifying for a dual position? Already he occupies an impreg­nable position as expert purveym of Go­vernment political carrion. I repeat that only two membm;s of the present Govern­ment were in the Cabinet that gave adult suffooge to Queensland.

The HOME SECRETARY: I rise to a point of order. Is the han. member for Bundaberg in order in likening the han. member for Port Curtis to a political Ana­nias?

Mr. LAND : What did he say himself? The SPEAKER: With regard to the point

of order, I am of opinion that members should not use such terms in Parliament, as they are not of a character that is calculated to preserve decorum in debate and maintain the dignity of the Chamber.

Mr. BARBER : I asked the han. member whether he was qualifying for that position. If you turn to " Hansard," and to the speech of the han. member for Port Curtis, you will

[Mr. Barber.

sec the charges he made with regard to the party on this side, and I then interjected that what the han. member said was in­correct.

The SPEAKEH,: Tho hDn. member is not in order in attributing untruths to any han. member.

Mr. BARBER: I did on that Dccasion, 2\lr. Sptc~tkor.

The SPEAKER : And I <;ailed the han. member to order for doing so.

Mr. BARBER: You did, Mr. Speaker; but when tho han. member says this party belie 1·es in voting early and often, and as often as you pleas-e, the han. member knows very well that that is not a correct statement.

l!Ir. KESSELL l \Vho said that?

Mr. BARBER: Let the hon. member road his speech. I doubt very much ,, hcther the han. member knmvs what he did say.

I\1r. KESSELL: YDU know, apparently.

:i'.lr. BARBER: I was under tho impres­sion, when tho session vva.:~ opened, and we re.td in the Gm ernor's Spovch that the Government inb;nded to introduco a Inea::_,ure of electoral reform, that we would get a comprehensive measure that would deal "ith th0 whole system of elections in the State. In·,tead of that, with one or two exceptions, the Government have not touched some of the more serious problems, as far as the franchise question is c,1nccrned, and which certainly require refDrm. They have sought, in this measure, certainly, to incor­porate provisions that will be the means of disfranchising thowcands Df the hardest workers and most respectable people in Queensland. I know the Home Secretary repudiatcco that stato:aent. Tho Bill provides that a person must be twelve months resi­dent in the Stat'" befmo being able to get his name entered u non the electoral roll. Under our present system of bi-monthly elec­toral courts, it is quite possible that an elec­tor may be here seventeen and probably eighteen months bc·f01·e he will be able to cl-aim tho right to vote. \V e know that on diffen nt occasions-take, for instance, the 1908 and 19J9 elections. On those Dccasions there were thousands of people whoso names "•::re rr·g-i,tored at the February court. Those names were passed at the next bi­monthly CDurt. The elections took place at tho latter end of April, and, owing to the short period betwc8n the sitting of the April bi-monthly cledions court and the day Df election, in 1908, there were about 7,000 duly qualified elector.s who were disfranchised, and under the same set of circum'•tancos in the following year there were somewhere about 10,000 electors ,,-hD wore un, ble to vote. The same thing will operate if this Bill is carried in its present form, and I am of the opinion that some amendment of the Act is nece,sary as far as the bi-monthly courts are concerned. It would have been wise if the GDvernment had reduced the period to one month. Under section 3 of the WDst Australian Act, it is possible for the electoral registrar to enter the name of an elector, if he possesses the necessary qualifications, on the rDll within fourteen days of the poll. If there is any dispute or doubt as to the person's qualifica­tion, the law gives the registrar power to place that name on the roll; but against that name he must put a special mark, and when the elector comes along and claims the right

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill.

to vote, the pr0siding officer is compelled to ask him certain questions, and the elector must make a declantion that he is duly qualified to record his vote. If he docs net ~ake the necessary declaration, the elector rs refused a ballot-paper. If we take a very large section of the workers in the sugar industry, we find from experience that thousands of those men will never be able to claim bona fide residence under the provisions of this Bill. I know that to some e'Ctent the same thing will apply in the metropolitan area, and, probably, to a kcser deg'rce, in some of thD larger centres of population in Queensland, because, 11ithin a radius of 8 or 10 miles of the post office in Brisbane you have some twelve or fourteen different elec­torates. Take those men and women follow­ing tho profession of shop assistants and other permanent wor kc:·s ; they probably board, say, at a boardmg-hou•.e situated in the e]cctorate of Brisbane six weelc, or perhaps SIX months, and at th•e end of twelve months tho ~am,~ peolJle n1ay have lived in four, five, or s1x Ulfferent metropolitan electoratco. \Ye find the same thin:; operating more so in thB su:;rar districts. 'rhe practice, in the paRt, of hundreds of men who follow up canecutting, year after ye.u, has been, hen thov como to a p_lace like Bundaberg, to go to the first boardmg:house that they sight. In making that thur home for the necpo;sary tim<', thho people, in the past, have been able to get on thB roll; but under this amending Bill none of those people will be able to give a sati••factory answer to the question in ref0r­enco to bona fide residence. The peonle may ~avo been working outside, but that board­mg-house has been considered to be their homo, and the electoral registrar, I presume in all the sugar districtS-at anv rate I speal~ with authority as regards Bundaberg-has re­cognised that the place where these workers have left their swags and portmanteaus­everything they possess in tho world-in their home. Probably during tho sugar season thr·e people will be compelled bv various exio-en­cies-the work may have given out in °one part of the district-to sock emplm rnent in a different pert of the district, and· tho con­sequBnca will be that thrv will have to h

conlinuall.1 shifting r· ·md, and [8 p.m.] wry few of them will be able to

fulfil the residence qualifications laid down in tho Bill. The Home Sccrci:.rv visits the various electorates and I think h.c must recognise that th•·re ~rc thouecmls of people who come under tho categorv I am referring to. At the bi-monthh· electoral court for tho Musgrave <?loctorate which is held in Bnndaberg, I have &F~Jn fr~1n t\V(':ltv to 100 objections placed before the returning officer. The men have fulfilled tho qualifica· tion, awl been therB long enough to ha vc their names enrolled, and yet the politied agentb of the Tory party now occupying the Treasury b0nches in this State have gone round and ob}ected to these noople being enrolled. .v cry few of th<·'o,e men, although they arc m the same electorate, have re­ceived a notice stating- that their nanws ha ye

been obj ccted to. J nst prior tc the lab'' election, nin~ty-four objections wore placed be:fore the bt-monthly court in Bundalwrg, the whole of which, with the exception of about twenty-scYen, were upheld, and that large number of men was disfranchised. I presume that to some extrmt the same thing would apply in other electorates also. li seems to me that this is tho second occasion .Qn which the Government has penalised thee,'

people. First they were penalised under certain provisions of the Industrial Peace Act, and now they come down with this Bill, which embodies a provision to prevent these people from exercising the franchise, even wh0n they are qualified to do so. The ques­tion has been raised as to why no provision h11s been mado to allow the inmates of Dun­wich to have a vot~. OnA hon. member, speaking the other night, said that this v. as practically tho first tim thnt the matter has been raised, but ho will find by turning up " Hansard" for 1904, when the adult suffrage or Llectoral Franchise Bill was before the House, that tho matter ''as discub·ed pretty fully, an.l tho suggestion rnado that these pc<>ple should be allO\• ed to be registered on the roll of the electorate from which they camll. That was as far as the matter g-ot. Then the question was asl:cd the. oth,,r night why thn J'\ow South \Vale:, and tho \Vestern A_ustr<J.lia Labour Go-.-crnn1cnts had not en~ hanchi,;·d the inmates of their honnolent institution •· Anyone who has fol!m:ed up the legislation introdu.v,_~d in the sister Pnrlia­mc<1t of New Sou'h \Yale, for the p.1st t;.;·o or throe years will see that the 11cGowen Government sought to give the fr,c~1chi'3 to th2 inrnatC's of the boneyolcnt institutions thc;"e, but the Bill \Yas t hro\Yll out b.v the Lc>;;islativc Council. On the statc>J:wnt being n.1adc h·-,r.~ th.~ other week, one of n1y collea­g-ues wir·•d Lo the Premier of \Y('stcrn ..t'lus­tralia, asking v~ThJt the position \\Tas there, and he got the following repl0 :-

"Your \Yirc even date. \Vhen in Oppo­sition cnd<o:tvoured to include in Act pro­po;;al included in amending Bill this session."

That has always been the objeLt of the LabOtlr party. Because thos'l people who haY() r •"CCI the pioneers of the various States reside in a bor:'lvolent institution, we do not c.c)nsiLLr that that should disfranchise them, and d<>privc tlwm of the rit ht that every free r~itizon ought to enjoy. t\nrdy \vith their cO:llbinc!l \YisJon1, the prc-<'nt Cabinet ean fc,quul:J .. te :--'HC -' n1r ans by -,\·hich tho poor old pio11 ·L·rs \YO bt;ar so n~uch nbori.t flon1 hon. Hl' ~.:Jbers opposit.o, and \Vho are in our bcne­voknt and cb::uitablc i!J';,;_ utions at tho pte­sent tirne, will have tho opportunity to exercise their yoto without in any way sw<Lmpillg any of the electorates. As a matter of justice and common humanity, tlws; old people should be allowed that right. T!,cro is another matter that I have not hc·onl any hon. mBmbor refer to, and pro­b~bly it has nevBr been mentioned to the Home Srrrotary. Under the absentee vote, which was in operation at the last election, a considerable number of electors who "ere entitled to vote had their votes made informal b ,rau··' they had not filled in the proper Chrictian name when forv. arding their ballot­papers. Tlwre are numbers of people in this State who have more than one Christian name. They have probably registerBd on the roll as James Smith, when possibly their name was James Thomas William Smith, and when voting by the absentee system have forgotten tho name by which they are re>gis­tered on the roll, and because the Christian name which they sign on the ballot-paper has not tallied with the name on thB roll, tho returning officer had no option but to dtdare the vote informal. In a great many C\.1ses, to my knowledge, the returning officera have known that it was onB and the same person, but because the Christian name on the ballot-paper did not tally with the

Mr. Barber.]

1140 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

Christian name of the person on the roll, the vow had been declared informal. I submit that is unfair. At the general election before last there were about seventeen of these ballot-papers made informal in Bundaberg for that reason. It seems to me that that is distinctly unfair to these people, when the returning officer is satisfied that the proper and legitimate elector has recorded his vote by post, or by the absentee principle. I want to ask the Home Secretary if he could not make some arrangements whereby these votes in future should be counted. I have not much more to say on the Bill, as some of the sting has been taken out of it owing to the fact that the Premier has declared his willingness to accept certain amendments. The Bill seemed to me tD be introduced in a most bitter and almost vindictive manner; but the Premier has promised to accept amendments in Committee which will tone down some of the more drastic provisions, and I hope that the Government will be pre­pared tD amend other provisions which we consider unjust to a large number of the people of this State.

Mr. FOLEY Pf u' dingburra.) : It is amus­ing to me to hear han. members on the other side declare that the only reason why they are in favour of the re-enactment of the postaJ voto is becauee it may enable sonw poor sick person, or so1ne person who is 5 miles from a polling-booth, to record a vote-an opportunity that they have not pos­sessed since thC' abolition of the postal vow. ·we are told that the postal vote is to be surrounde-d by such safeguards that nobody will be able to vote who is not entitled to do so. Such safeguards were supposed to ~urround the old po'tal voting system. It was not intended that anyone should vote by post who was able to gD to a polling­booth on election day, and yet we know hun­dreds of people who werP living within easy distance of a polling-booth, and who were quite well and able to walk to a polling­booth, voted by post, and on election day were actvally canvassing and working for candidate,. One of the safeguards proposed by the Bill is that the ballot-paper is to be made of paper that no one will be able to see through. It will not be possible to dis­cern whom the person voted for by looking through the ballot-paper. That safeguard was overcome when the last postal voting system was in vogue by the canvasser hand­ing tD the voter a bit of clean blotting­paper with which to blot the ballot-paper, and then he collected the blotting-paper as well as the ballot-paper. The ballot-paper wus folded up and put into an envelope, but all that was nec•:•sPary was to hold the blot­ting-paper in front of a looking-glass, and they could see whom the elector had voted for. These things can be overcome very easily. As I said before in this Chamber, so well was the thing worked in Townsville that our opponents could tell to a vote how many votes they had in the postal ballot­box. I am surprised to hear han. members on that side accuse han. members on this side of opposing the postal vote because we are opposed to women having the franchise. If there is any party in this State that fought for the women getting a vote, it is the Labour party. I had a petition out twenty­five years ago on the streets in Townsville endeavouring to get signatures in favour of adult suffrage, and from that time on the Labour party fought to get women the vote until it was granted. For han. members on that side to claim that they are the people

[Mr. Barbtr.

who gave the women the vote is very amus­ing indeed, because, if anybody fought against female franchise, it was the mem­bers on the other side.

The TREASURER: You must know that that is absolutely incorrect.

Mr. FOLEY: I am sure that what I am saying is absolutely correct, and it cannot be denie-d, because that is the party that has always opposed the female franchise--

The TRE.\SURER: That iS' not a fact.

Mr. FOLEY: While the party on this side were always fighting for it.

The Hm!E SECRETARY : It was the then member for Carnarvon who introduced the mBasure proposing to give the franchise to females. That is a record of the House.

M1·. Bow;rAN : That is the babv vote you are talking about. ·

Mr. FOLEY: I am prepared to say that, if a member on that side proposed that the females should get a vote, it was only when he knew that the Yoice of the country de­manded it, and they could not very well get out of it.

The HOME SECRETARY: I suppose that is why yoct opposed the vVork<'rs' Dw,llings Act.

Mr. FOLEY: Who opposed it? The HOlliE SECRETARY : Your party did, and

then you went to the <'ountry and claimed credit for introducing it.

Mr. FOLEY: There are many provisions in the Bill that will alter the policy of the Elections Act as we know it. It was cer­binly expected that some amendments would be made in the Act, but not such drastic amendments as the Government propose to make by this Bill. The country are laugh­ing at the attempt of the Government to keep thcmscln:a in office for another term. This has been stigmatised as panic legisla­tion. Thcv saw the result of the last Fodera,! election and the result of the last State elec­tion, and they got so frightened about it that the_,- introduced this measure to keep themselves in office for another three years.

Mr. KESSELL: \Vhat was wrong about the last State election?

Mr. FOLEY : The people see through this little dodge of the Government, and thev are preparing for it. We know that this purg­ing of the roll that han. members on the otl!cr side hav~ seen such necessity for is gomg to make 1t hard for people to get on the roll, and harder still to keep on the roll when they are there. Just imagine a native of Queenslan-d, who has lived here all his life and has reached the age of twenty-one years, and makes his claim to get his name on the roll. He is asked if he is twenty­one years of age ; if he has residrcl in Queensland for twelve months; if he ha,-< resided in the electorate for two months · and all these other questions that have t'o he answered before he can lodge his claim. Hi-s claim may be put in just after the court has sat, and he has to wait two months unti-l his claim is received by the court. Then he has to wait another two months to see if any objections are lodged against his name be_m_g enrolled ; so that, before. he is actually eltg1ble to vote, he has to wait at least six­teen months after he gets to · the age of twenty-one years.

Mr. KESSELL: Nonsense t Mr. FOLEY: That is a fact. Mr. KESSELL: Absolutely not.

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1141

Mr. FOLEY: I say, supposing an elector puts in his claim just after the court sits. The courts only sit eve~y two months. Say that the court has sat the first Tuesday in February. He puts his claim in on Wed­nesday. That is to remain there until the first Tuesday in .\pril, when the court re­ceives it, and he has to wait then until the first Tuesday in June before his vote can be registered.

Mr. KESSELL : That is four months. Mr. FOLEY: Yes, but he has to be twelve

months in the State before he can be en­rolled.

Mr. KESSELL: He was here twenty-one yonrs.

Mr. FOLEY: Cnder the old Act, if an €lector moved from one electorate to an­-other, he had to wait one month before he couiJ apply to be enrolled for the new elec­torate. L:nder this Bill he has to wait two months before he can apply to get on for the now electorate. There are a number of .electorates in Brisbane which are divided by streets. For instance, the street I live in at Spring Hill divides Paddington on the one side from Brisbane on the other. If an elector left the Paddington side of the 'treet and shifted over to the Brisbane side, he would have to wait two months before he could apply to get on the Brisbane roll, after which he may have to wait four months before his name was enrolled, and he would be disfranchised for that time. A man living with his parents on one side of the street might get married, and shift over to the other side of the street, and although, per­haps, he lives in the same street where he was born, still, if he happens to cross over to another electorate, he has to wait two months before he can apply, and perhaps another four months before he is enrolled. I consider that the amendments which are in­troduced into this Bill are for the purpose of preventing people from getting on the roll, al­though they are legally entitled to do so. We know that the clerks of petty sessions and electoral registrars are called upon occa­sionally to purge the rolls, .and knock off the names of those electors who are not entitled to be on them. I know the clerk of petty sessions at Townsville, who was an old man, used to have a system of his own for purging the rolls. He said that he had to carry out his duties, when he was instructed to purge the rolls, and as he did not go up the streets very often, he did not know who had left the town. The system which this cl.erk of petty sessions adopted was this : He used to take a >Certain number of names from each letter of the alphabet on the elec­toral roll. He would advertise those names, and also serve notices at the addresses given in connection with them, stating that he had reason to believe that they had left the elec­torate, and that he intended to cross their names off the roll. \Vhen these people saw their names advertised, they would come and tell him that they had not left the electorate at all.

The Hmrn SECRETARY: That is a most extra­ordinary statement.

Mr. FOLEY: I am stating what I know to be a fact.

The HOME SECRETARY: He was " pulling your leg " pretty extensively. (Laughter.)

Hon. R. PHILP : How long ago was that? Mr. FOLEY: About fifteen years ago. The HOME SECRETARY: It must have been

in the prehistoric days. (Laughter.)

Mr. FOLEY: The hon. member for Towns­ville can bear me out when I say that I have been in Townsville for thirty years, yet I got a notice from this very clerk of petty sessions, telling me that he. ha_d reason to believe that I had left the d1stnct, and that he was going to strike my name off the r?ll. I went round to see him, and I sa1d to h1m, "·what rc>:.""Jn have you got to believe that I have left the di,trict ?" But he could not answer the question. He then told me th~t he was ordered to purge the rolls. and,_ m order to carry out his duties, he had JUSt struck off a number of names from ea"h letter of the .alphabet. At the sam? time, he advertised the names he struck off m a news­paper, and if no one came along and to!d him that these people wore entitled to remam on the roll, their names would be struck off.

The HoME SECRETARY: You must have been very young to believe that.

Mr. FOLEY: That is what this clerk of petty ,~,,,,:ions did when he was told to purge tho roll. We know very well that if he struck off the nam" " John Smith " b£·cause he had reason to believe he had left the district., and if " John Smith " did not take tho trouble to go and tell him that he had not left the district, his name would be struck off the roll. I would like to ask the Home Secretarv how it is that he has instructed the police to go round striking names off. the roll while at the same time he has not g1ven an_v' instructions to put any names on the roil?

The HO}!El SECRETARY: Because they are doing it .all the time.

Mr. BOWMAN: They are not doing it. Mr. FOLEY: They are not doing it on

this occasion. The HOME SECRETARY: They are alway;

doing it. Mr. FOLEY: The police are only striking

off those who have no right to be on the roll, and I say they should also put on those who are entitled to be on the roll. The Home Secretary should leave this mat~er in t_he hands of the police. If the pol:ce are H?-­structed to strike off names ad hb., then 1t will mean that a number of people will be disfranchised. I lmo)V' a number of people in Townsville have been struck off the roll when they should not have been.

Mr. PAYNE: They are struck off as dead.

Mr. FOLEY: Yes, dead and left. It is not fair to these people to strik: them off the rolls through no fault of theJr own. A man may live in an hotd in .a street for three months, and perhaps he may shift to another hotel in that street.

Hon. R. PHILP: A man may live in an hotel only for one night.

Mr. FOLEY: Yes, thttt is so. He may be living in one hotel, but he may remove to another, or to a boarding-house, and the letter goes to the hotel where he was when

he applied to have his name put [8.30 p.m.] on the roll. The postman says

that the man has gone, the letter is returned and that man's nttme is struck off. He k~ows nothing about it. I have seen scores of such cases.

The TREASURER : It is surprising the num­bers of people who have stayed at one board­ing-house for a night.

The HOME SECRETARY : There was one with eleven bedrooms and 124 votes. (Laughter.)

Mr. Foley.]

ll42 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY. J Amendment Bill.

Mr. FOLEY: I deny the innuendo that men go to an hotel for a night in order to get their names on the roll, and then go else­where.

The HOME SECRETARY: You admitted it a moment ago in reply to the interjection of the hon. member for Townsville.

Mr. FOLEY: He said that ·a man might be there one ·night, but he does not go there to get his name on the roll. vVhat I want to point out is that the system which prevailed in the days of which I mn speaking was a bad system, because then1 were scores of men in one electorate who remoYed to another and had their names struck off the roll.

The HoME SECRETARY: That is why we are going to alter it.

Mr. FOLEY: I do not know that you are. Mr. BoWMAN: You have a motive for

altering it.

Mr. FOLEY: These men were struck off the roll without their knowledge. I think some other system should be adopted. If the policB are put on to purge the rolls, why should they not be also told to put names on the roll?

The Hmm SECRETARY: You advocated that the matter should be left in their hands.

M1·. FOLEY : But vou are not te:ling them to put names on the roll ; you are only telling them to strike them off.

The. HOME SEORET.\RY: Who is telling them to str1ke them off? The instructions were to get information as to whether the persons are in the electorate or not and whether they are living or not. '

Mr. FOLEY: I will meet the Home Secre­tary in his priYato office on this question, but hero I am not allowed to go outside the Standing Orders. I want to touch on the abolition of. the absentee vote. I think the clause in this Bill which proposes to abolish it is most pernicious. There are hundreds of '!'en in my el~ct<;>rate who go away from the1r homes perJOdJCallv to work either on the sugar plante.tions of the North or down at Ayr, or at the meatworks at Torrens Creek or the Burdekin. And these people under this Bill, are not going to be able t~ get a vote.

Hon. R. PHILP : They can vote by post. Mr. FOLEY: No.

Mr. FORSYTH : \Vhy can they not?

Mr. FOL~Y: Because they cannot get a postal vote lf they are out of their electorate.

Mr. FoRSYTH: Oh, Yf'', they can.

Mr. FOLEY: Not under this Bill.

Mr. FoRSYTH: It is going to be amended.

.Mr. FOLEY: That seems t<J be the trouble w1th hon .. members opr:osite-they seem to have hurrwd through this Bill without know­ing what is .in it .. A voter can only get a P<?Btal vote If he s1gns a certificate that he will be more than 50 miles from his elec­torate on the day of the election and then he must vote in his electorate befdre he goes away.

Mr. FoRSYTH: That is going to be altered.

Mr. FOLEY. We are told that it is going to be altered, but we must see the alteration beforf' we are going to believe it. I am

fJir. Fole;y

going to fight very hard against the abolition of the absentee vote, because there will be hundre-ds of men who will be away from their olc.,torake on polling-day.

Mr. FonsYTH: They can vote outside their electorates as well as inside.

Mr. FOLEY: Not under this Bill. Mr. FORSYTH: We are told distinctly that

it is going to be altered.

Mr. FOLEY : I am dealing "ith the Bill as it is. The Premier said something about amending it, but I do not know in what direction it is going t<J be altered.

Hon. R. PHILP: Have a little patience.

Mr. FOLEY: I have got a fright over this Bill, because I know it is going to affect the election.

Mr. KESSELL: Hear, hear !

;l,lr. FOLEY: It will not only affect me; it will affect members on the other side as well. What I wish to point out is that the men of who,n I was speaking are bound to go away to earn their living. The han. member for J\1ount Morgan, speakmg last night, said that he ;vould do away with the nomads-he would make them all settle down. I would like to ask that hon. member what theY are going to do if they do not go where the. work is? Take the instance of building a new railway. There are not sufficient people in tho district for that purpose unless nomads go there. Neither are there suffi­cient in the W pqtern districts for the shear­ing nor in the cane districts for canecutting at barYP,t time, nor in the meatworks dis­h·icts when the work starts there. These men have to go out of the Pettled districts to get work and when they are away an unscrupu­lous Government might spring an election on them, and deprive thousands of men of their ,-oks. What remedy would they have? Un­less the Government altBrs it as promised­tho Hon. the Premier at least int..,rjocted that he would alter it-it will simply disfranchise thoueands of workers in Queensland. There is another proposed amendment of .a practice which has always been allowed up to the present. Men have always been allowed to put in their claims for enrolment even on the day of the court. I cannot for the life of me understand what objection the Home Secretary has to that. He says now that the claim must be in the hands of the registrar of the court at least forty-eight hours before the court sits. vVhat is the reason for it? As I said before, the claim has to remain for two months, so that any objection that can be made may be made. Now, if there aJ'e> two months within which to lodge an objec­tion to a man's claim, what is the reason for demanding that the claim shall be in forty­eight hours before the court sits? I know that there have been many cases in which the court has be0n good enough to allow claims to come in oven at the last hour, or while the court was sitting. But now we have a Bill to deny that right. I think it is an amendment that could be very well left out. I know of no reason why it should be made, unless it is to put another obstacle in the wev of getting on the roll. There is another thing in tho Bill to which I wish to call attention, and that is the proposal to demand that everybody shall state on the claim the date of his or her birth. Now, many women, when votes for women were first inaugurated, refused to fill in the claims because they

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1143

were afraid thev would have to state their <lges. There are hundreds of women-at ,any rate scores-who would r<lther not have a vote at all than tell their age. (Laughter.) There will be such a tirade against tho Government when tho women come to hear of it that they will be sorry they introduced it.

The Hmm SECRETARY : I will keep my hair cut, and grow no whiskers. (Laughter.)

Mr. FOLEY: I wish to refer to a very important clause-that dealing with a man's r·esidenco. Some time ago I received a letter from Townsville to the effect that the ele'0-toral oflicer there was refusing claims from people living on \ooard vflssels. I think the hon. member for To·Tnsvillc will lcear mo out when I say that there arc many men in Townsville who live on board the vesseh which trade between Townsville and the Northern rivers·-vessels like the "~Iouril­yan" and the "Lass o' Gowrie "-and have their home on the ship. \Yhen the ship is in port they may go up town for a while, but they go back to the ship to sloop; in fact, they eat and sleep and have their home on bDard the vessel. I know some men who have lived o.n those '·hips for years. The el?c­toral registrar in Townsville is refusing to accept these vessels as the homes of the men, though they have no other home, and I want to knmv what the Homo Secretary ·is going to dD about the matter. ·

The HOME SECRETARY: I have taken a note of the hon. member's statement, but I can scarcely credit it.

:Mr. FOLEY: The last Act provided that a man living on bDard a vessel should be entitled to a vote.

Hon. R. PHILP: YDu can't stop him get­ting a vote now.

J\Ir. FOLEY: They are rejecting claims, at any rate.

The HOME SECRlTARY: You put your com­plaint in writing and I will inquire into the matter.

:\lr. FOLEY: The hDn. gentleman can get the information from the Principal Electoral Registrar in Brisbane. I took a letter to the Principal Electoral Registror, and he told me that he could not say definitely whether those men were entitled to have their names put on the roll, but that he would submit the matter to the Crown Law Officers. Later on I got a reply to the effect that thDse particular men came right on the edge of the Act, and that the court could refuse to accept their claims if it thought fit.

Tho HoME SECRETARY: There vou ar.J. It is a matter fo.r the court. ·

Mr. FOLE,Y: \Yhon the Bill gDes into Com­mittee I shall ask the Home Secretary to insert an amendment providing that men who are living on bDard ship in the nL:nncr I have described shall be entitled to f!et th'Cir nameo on the roll. 11r. Jue·ice Chubb, when asked in cDurt a qucstiDn al'D-_lt rcsider.cc, said that if a man was living under a grasJ­tree he was entitled to. ha vc his name put Dll the roll, as that was hi,' home. (Hear, hear!) Yet in the cases I have nwntionPd, men have their claims rofueed by the electoral officer because they happen to live on ships. There is a provision in this mcasur(J tD punish any­one who is diSDrderly at an election meeting. I shDuld like to. knDw what is disorder at an election meeting. From time immemorial electDrs have always had the right to indicate their assent to or dissent from the views of

the speaker by way of interj?ction, and . I have noYer yet kno\vn a n1eotn1g t<:? be ~hs­turbed while the speaker was confinmg hi,n­self to. the truth. (Laughter.) . Ho?-· m,em­bers may laugh, but the question IS: \\hat is disorder at a politicalmeoii1 g? If a speaker stands up and tells all sorts of tales." hich the audicmce knmv arc not true, and If they interject and tell him they a~e n?t true he " gets his hair off," as the saymg IS, and the n.ore he raves the mon they laugh at hnn. The Pr01nier u1rr1.o to Tcnvnsvillo on one: o.cca­sion, and he V>a·, telling the electors a talc which the v did not celieve, and \'.'hich, as a matter of fact. they k:cw was not true, and some memb'crs of th·· audience intcr­j.-dcd to that effect.

Hon. R. PHILP: Wl1D ''as their leader? 1\Tr. FOLEY: The Premier had not less

than oichteen po)icemon in the hall in order to k<:cp. order and decorum, as he called it. The hon. gentleman callcod the electors all kinds Df namc•s and at la't Dne elector got up and said, '" \Ye \Von't stand this any longer; cDme out, follow 1110," and a large number of persons left the room, so th t, out of an audience Df about 800 Dr DCO. the Premier was left 'vith so.mc forty. 'l'he hon. gentl~,man said, " LDok at the dumb driven dogs.

The Hmm SECRETARY: You lmDw that of most Df them that is true.

Mr. FOLEY: It was a good job that the Premier was not outside when he said that, or he wo,nld have SDDn found out wh~ther it was true or nDt. I sav that the Premier was more insulting than "the electors when he called them "dumb driven" dDgs," and that he could scarecly expect to get a quiet hearing after that.

The Hol\IE SECRETARY: But he did, didn't ho?

J\lr. FOLEY: If the Government insert a provision in this Elections Bill for the pur­pose of preventing disorderly con?uct at political me('tings, they should also msert a clause preventing candidates from bemg disorderly and impudent to the electors. (Laughter.)

Mr. KESSELL: That would stop all your peDple frDm speaking.

Mr. FOLEY: \Vould it? Whatever audienc" we have to address you never hear of any disturbance of that kind taking place at Dur meetings. (Laughter.) Why .is that.? I will tell hon. members why it IS. It IS because, generally speaking, when a Labour member is addressing a meeting he tells the truth-(loud Government laughter)--and even those who are Dpposed to him oannot deny by interjection what he says. People never interject at our meetings. (Renewed !~ugh­tor.) If the Government see the necessity of preventing disorder at meetings they should also see the necessity of warning candidates that, in o.rcler to get a quiet he,ring, they should a.t least cDnfine themselves tD the truth. I remember on one -occasion, when the Hon. Alfred Cowley came to Rm·s Isl~nd tD speak, the people could. no.t stand him, and a gentleman in the audience got up and said. " I think if Tom Foley was here he ,·.vuld stop vDU people from talking." I happened to he there, but I did not say any­thing to them because I co.uld not suffer the statements that were being made at that meeting.

Mr. FIHELLY (Paddington): I am not at all surprised at the introduction of such an Elections Bill by the Home Secretary.

Mr. Fihelly.]

1144 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

In fact, when he was campaigning in the Fassifern electorate a little time ago, that hon. gentleman described every Labour can­didate as a drunkard, and every Labour voter as being a frequenter of public-houses.

The HOME SECRETARY: The hon. member knows that is distinctly untrue.

Mr. FIHELL Y: I c;.,nnot hope to over­come such a noi .e as that, but, at the same time, I must assBrt on b•chalf of myself, that, at the time I am speaking of, he was ad­dressing a mE·•"ting of live; one was J\Ir. Cecil Roberts, the president of the Farmers' Union; another was the pr€sent· member for Fassifern, who is absent to-night; and the other three wore equally influential, or equally obscure-! do no! know ,,·hich terrn I should use when speaking of the sitting mBmber, and of ::'.1r. Roberts, who conduct·• the legislation here-we clo not know wheth r the person is frnuous or obscure-b~..tt th'-.;1'0 are the persons to whom the Home Sccr-c~ary made that sttttement on that night Very probably the Home Secretary does not bP­lieve that he s"id it. I am perfectly satiJfied that in the exuberance of an elections cam· paign--

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. FIHELLY: I maintain I am perfectly

in order, and I intend to say that--The SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. FIHELL Y: We are dealing with an

Elections Bill, and the hon. member at that time '"'s addre"ing the people in connec­tion with an impending election. He made certain Jctaten1ents, and I an1 bringing those statemenht to Lear in EO far as their relation to this Bill is concerned. At that particular mPeting the hon. member was probably exubentnt. After a Ion g motor ride at the SttLto's expf'nse, he v•·ent in the usual way, and €xhumed a dear relative for party purposes. The hon. gentleman always goes to the German settlements at election time, and talks about a dear relative of his own. I am sorry he does so, and I am sorry he makes political capital--

The Hoi.IIE SECRET AllY: You need not ex­press any sorrow at all, because he is proud of it.

Mr. FIHELLY: I am sorry the bon. gen­tleman exhibits the memory of this relative, who is now dead, and attempts to make

_political capital out of it. The HOME SECRETARY: That is one thing

the hon. member will never be able to do as far as he is concerned.

Mr. FIHELLY: As usual, we have the roar of the lion, but we do not know whether it is really the roar of a lion or a noise made by a mechanical figure.

The HoME SECRETARY: It is better to have the roar of the lion than the howl of the dingo.

The SPEAKER : Order ! The Home Secretary is distinctly out of order, and the member for Paddington is also out of order. I ask him to confine his remarks to the second r<·ading of this Bill, and not to go into personal details such as he is indulging in.

Mr. FIHELL Y : I regret vBry much if I have pa,ved the bounds in my few remarks on this Bill so far.

The SPEAKER: Order! Will the han. member confine his remarks to the second reading of the Bill ?

[Mr. Fihelly.

Mr. FIHELL Y : If you allowed me to go for a moment--

The SPEAKER : Order ! I must ask the hon. member to confine his rc·marks to the Bill.

Mr. FIIIELLY: Then I will leave it en­tirely alone \Vhen you say that--

The SPK\KER: Order ! I am afraid the hon. member i> not going to obey the order of the Chair. I shall not allow that under any circumstance~;. The Homo Secreta_ry was di.stinctly out of order, and I called hnn to order for interjecting. Tho h~,n. member may be able to play upon his words at a public meetino-, but he must not play upon those words when '·'peaking in this Home.

Mr. FIHELLY: I trust I will uphold the dignity of the Chair.

The SPEAKER: Order ! '\Vill the hon. member speak to the second reading of the Bill?

::\Ir. FIHELLY: I am making an effort-

The SPEAKER: Order! Mr. l<'IllELLY: :Might I be permitted to

say one word? I trust I will receive the same courtesy from the Chair that other hon. mem­bers receiYe. If so, then I will go ahead. This Bill se,c:ms to have arisen exactly from the circumstances that I just mention_ed, ~ut,. un­fortunately, o\\ ing to several mter]ect1~ms from hon. members, I am unable to dcvolOp that argument further. Howeve:, this Bill is really mon&irous in so far as 1t ~ttempts to hamper the ordinary individual m exer­cising the franchise. It would be a sad day for Parliarrwnt if, for a mon1ent, \VC n1en1-bers imagined that the people were made for us. It would be a sad day indeed. \V e are here simply as the rcprc:centa,t~v('~ of the people, and the moment we begm to g_erry­mander with the franchise and restnct 1t, or limit it, to suit party purposes, then it is time our little place was knocked out-that the bauble was taken away, and a few com­mis9ionors appointed to rule the ~ountry. Already it is true that Parliament 1s not a cl.clibetat.ive assernblv. Thoro are ll1'·Inbcrs sitting on this side vcho reprc,cnt a minority of the people-they really rcprese:1t a ma­jority at the last Federal elcctwns, _but t1ley represent a minority at the electwns eighteen months back. They a:e n?t heard. They have no say in the legJSlatJVe hmc­tions of the State. A majority over there­a brutal majority-can do what they wish and say what they wish. They can put you, Mr. Speaker, in the chair, or they can Pl!-t von out of it which shows the extent of thc1r !)ower. They can dictate to us in every pos­sible way, and we cannot get an amendment in any Bill unless we have their _concurre::>ce. With the evolution of this partwular. thmg, the people are suffering, and Parhament seems to imagine that it . made t~1e people instead of the people makmg Parhament. A few vears arro we had the spectacle of the Premier at ~that time introducing a baby vote-also to catch a few people for party purposes.

'The TREASURER: I have hf'ard about a baby bonus.

Tho SPEAKER : Order ! Mr. FIHELL Y: I am sure the hon. gen­

tleman ha,, and I hope he will tak.e a~van­tage of the Commonwealth generosity m so far as these babies are concerned.

'l'he TREASURER: \Veil, your turn will come. The SPEAKER : Order !

Elections Acts [3 SEPTE:\IBER.] Amendmutt Bill. 1145

l\ir. FIHELLY: I am glad that you are gomg to protect me, Mr. Speaker. To illus­trate this particular method, which, to a lay

mind, appears to be only bri­[9 p.m.] bery, I mention the baby vote of

a few years back wherehv it was thought that a father ·11ho happened "to have a couple of babies should have a couple of votes, ai..:d the taxpayer received no considera­tion; but this party, frightened at the result of the late refcr,mda, arc coming at it in a different way. The Home Secretary laughs again-that loud and vacant laugh.

Tho HmiE SECHETARY : I never knew that the fathms had babies before. (Laughter.)

Mr. FIHELLY: Just to humour the hon. gentleman, I may S·ay that I have a baby, and it is more intelligent than the hon. gentleman, although it is only two weeks old.

The HOolE SECRETARY: It does not take after its father, then. (Loud laughter.)

Mr. FIHELLY: I join issue with the hon. gentleman there. However, I leave that particular species of bribery. I might men­tion, also, that the han. member for Port Curtis made a very bitter speech a few weeks ago.

Mr. ~IORGAX: \Vhat are you going to do with the bonus?

Mr. FIHELL Y: I will probably invest it in prickly-pear land. (Laughter.) The per­Hm sitting as member for Port Curtis was addressing the intelligent electors of that district a little while ago, and using some <Of his vote-catching methods. He took a person up named Fowles, who adorns an­<:Jther Chamber. Mr. Fowles was speaking by and large, and telling the electors why they should return Mr. Kessell. ·I am men­tioning this w that the Elections Bill will not include such things as this. Mr. Fowles Mid that Gladstone would be like Mackay. Mackay had asked for a third of a million to make an artificial harbour, and would get it bectmse the district was represented by Messrs. Paget and Swayne. (Laughter.) They have not got it, but that shows the particular form of corruption which can creon into an Elections Act. That, under the Co~mon­wealth Act, would be punishable by a fine of some descdption-if any member of the Cabinet made representations to such an ex­tC'nt, 01· attempted to buy votes by promises of millions. Of course, the Secretary for Railways is not in a very happy position. He has been making promises for the last three years, some of which have been ful­filled. Mr. Swayne is not quite as much in the-

'l'he SPEAKER : Order !

Mr. FIHELL Y: However, to continue, Mr. Fowles said that they would get a high 0chool and a technical college at Gladt'tone if the Liberal candidate were returned. I do not know what the Secretary for Public In­struction would say about the matter. This is an extract from the "Courier "-it will be remembered what the " Courier" wrote during the elections-

" They would get a high school and a technical college here if the Liberal can­didate were returned."

Perhaps Mr. Kessell has overlooked 'one or two things.

The SPEAKER : Order ! The hon. mem­ber must refer to the hon. member for Port Curtis by his parliamentary name.

Mr. FIHELL Y: The hon. member for Port Curtis. Mr. Fowles was probably mak­ing promises at that stage. He said-

" The Government had kept its pro­mise~. Let that be remembered, for they would do what Mr. Kessell promised."

I do not wish to detain the Hom:<J with these extracts much longer, because they are more reminiscent of "' Punch " or " Puck," or some other such paper, than of a responsible person talking to intelligent people. The hon. member for Port Curtis himself referred to the assistance given to men on the land, and said that, if elected, he would get aid for the people in the Gladstone district. I do not think he has done so.

The SPEAKER : Order ! I must ask the hon. member to show how his remarks are relevant to the Bill.

Mr. FIHELL Y: I hope that they may have some influence, or at least some effect, on the Bill itself, in this particular way. (Laughter.) The Bill proposes to wipe out the nomadic vote. 'I'he hon. member for Port Curtis was probably feeling that wan­dering vote at the time, when he gave out promises as to why they should vote for him. There arc other ways which will appeal to your own intelligence, Mr. Speaker, in that particular resped, in connection with an Elections Bill, which deals with elections, and also with the Elections Tribunal, which Mr. Kessell afterwards faced-you will probably see that I am perfectly in order. To con­tinue, Mr. Kessell-I am talking about the person who was not the -member for Port Curtis at the time-said-

" They were sure to have long haulage rates from the \Vest to Gladstone."

I do not think they have had them. If my memory is correct, the hon. member for Port Curtis voted against those long-haulage rates. In continuation, he said-

" A gentleman had promised him if he could get the long-haulage rates, wool store9 would be built at Gladstone."

The SPEAKER : Order ! I must ask the hon. member for the second time to show the relevancy of his remarks to the subject­matter of the Bill.

Mr. FIHELLY: I was going to say that the Bill deals with the qualifications of the persons who arc going to vote. This par­ticular person I am speaking of was appeal­ing to the persons who had those qualifica­tions at that particular time. They returned h;m t-) Parliament, and afterwards he faced the judge on the Elections Tribunal, and he was able to have the sitting member un­se-ated: Mr. Kessell also said-

" If elected, he would urge the con­struction of a light railway to Mount Larcombe, and would promise to get a water supply in six months."

That water supply has not arrived. He also said that if the Labour man was elected, there was no chance of getting the water supply. He also said-

" The rule was that Government repre­sentatives would get help first, and there was no chance that Mr. Breslin, if elected, could get the water supply, and then the Callide Railway."

I thirrk that the last paragraph vindicates the action I have taken here, and also my

Mr. Fihelly.l

1146 Elc<:tions Acts [ASSEM:BL Y.] Amrndment Bill.

attitude. I think it also demonstrate" to you, Illr. Speaker, . tJ::<tt I have been perfectly in or:Jer. Tho sittmg member for Port Curtis said at that time that there was no chance of. Mr. Breslin, if elected, getting these thmg~, and surely that is a good reason why l sho.uld qu?te his words, and say that ~h1s Eloctwns Bill should be purer than it IS. I have now, I think, satisfied you thor­o~ghly u~on that particular matter, and I will not discms the matter any further. The vote calle~ th~ postal vote-or the postal not<'. I thmk 1t should be. better called the postal note than the postal vote, because the postal note seems to buy the postal vote that is going to be inflicted on the people of Queensland.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: On your side? Mr. FIHELL Y: Do I hear a noise? Mr: BEBBINGTON: Is your side going to

buy 1t?

Mr. FIHELLY: The hon. member is talk­ing about buying votes.

Mr. BEB!liNGTON: You said so first.

Mr. FIHELL Y: I would suggest to the h~m. member~ i_n passing, that he look to his own plebisCite,. and Mr. Cecil Roberts, ~nd perhaps he will m~ke a fair bargain, If he knows how to buy It. Tho postal vote, or postal note, was introduced for the sake of invalids-to give them a chance to exer­cis0 the franchise. But the invalids and the ?ountry people had. no chance of even using It. Perhaps they d1d not bother their heads about it; but in Charters Towers where polling-booths si:t;"ply run up against a man at every corner, 1t was used to the extent of thousands. Ministers on the other side-and for instance, the honorary Minister in th~ other House, the Attorney-General as well as the ~1inister for Education, a~d other nondescnpts, who I won't mention-they all opposed the postal vote, and meant to abolish it. They sit with their friends, such as the Treasurer, who bitterlv attacked the Attor­n~y-Gene:·al in this Ho'use, and almost called hun a ha~, but in different phraseology. They can Sit toll'e~her to-day, cheek by jowl, and vote for this mfamous vote.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: The wolf lying down with the lamb.

Mr. FIHELLY: Another int<:'rjection has ?orne from the corner where the chec>a corner 1s supposed to exist. I hope that the hon. member who has interjected and who gene­rally. helps to . keep. the House cheerful at ?erta!n :Jepre,smg times, will refrain from mter]ectll.'g and disturbing my speech, or else I will have to talk to him about tho choose ;'end, of which he sc0ms to be the C<;Jntrollmg factor. Tho postal vote is re­VIved by !hcse people who attacked each other so biitcrly a few years ago over it­the Home Secretary, for instance who is a P:otege of Mr. Kidston. I thin'k I heard h1m at a local authorities' conference sav that whatever he was Mr. Kidston shou.'d be thanked for it. \Vell, that was not m~ch of ": compliment for Mr. Kidston. At the same t~me, thP hon. gentleman said so. At that time Mr .. Kidston was Premier, and the Trea· surer. sa1d hB had been " drummed out of Fallnrk." That was proved to be untrue.

The SPEAKER : This is the third time I have to ask the hon. member to make his remarks to the sec<.md reading of the Bill. I shall not warn h1m again.

GovER:omKT MEMBERS: Hear. hear!

[Mr. Fihdly

Mr. FIE ELL Y : Well, I shall ha vo to make one more attempt. I am doing the best I can in this matter. Of course I recognise there is nothing sublime about my line of argu­ment, but if I can point out to the House that members on tho Treasury bench oppo.,d this measure and that other members supported it, and that to-day some members on either side are agreeing to it, then I think that is good argument for tho House. If it is not a good argument, I am prepared to sit down.

Tho SPEAKER : The hon. member will b8 quite in or<ier if he confin(·3 himself to an argument of ·that nature.

Mr. FIHELL Y: The Treasurer accused Mr. Kidston of being " drummed out of Fal­kirk," and he al'o opposed tho postal vote. Afterwards he took ofiice under Mr. Kidston, about whom he told this untruth, and he was quito willing to accept the abolition of th<:> postal vote. Between such a conglomeration over there-such a mixture of political adven­turers-opportunists-\' hat can we expect, and what c1n tho people expect? I say again that the people seem to be n:ade to be ex­ploited by thc Parliament-not Parliament made for the benefit of the people. I regret to have to bring those matters into tho House, bnt we must show the electors outside the pernicious influences-if you, Sir, will pardon n1o for using the \Vord "pernicious," \vhich i~ very often US•ed in this House-the per­nicious influencPs which have led to tho intro­duc>ion of this Bill. I wish to do that by pointing out ho" these politicians--these mere adventurers~-

The SPEAKER : Ordet ! 1\lr. FIHELL Y: Whoever th0y may be­

bring in what suits themselves and not what suits the general taxpayer. I do not appear to be getting on too well with that topic, Mr. Speaker. May I sup-gcc>t a change? May I suggest some item to bring the Bill into conformity with the Commonwealth mea­sures--some itl'm which will save some money, and give the Treasurer 1nore n1oncy to jugQ'le with-more money, so that, in­stt\1d of using it to rcd··om the old loans, he n1av transfer certain iten1s to rovr,nufr account? I would suggest some nmendment bv which we \Vould abolish the electoral estab­lishment in Queensland and hand it over to the Federal authorities, because, if theirs is fair, it ought to satisfy us, and also, if ours is fair, it ought to satisfy them; and, seeing that the Treasurer thinks tho Commonwealth Bank should not have como into competition with the State Savings Bank, I thmk, to show his consistency, he should not allow the State Electoral Office to come into competi­tion with the Commonwealth Electoral Office. 'I'his would enable him to save more money, and \Ve want very badly to save more money. You may have noticed, Mr. Speaker, that we have had very early adjournments this ses­sion. To my mind, that is the main reason for the introduction of this Bill. It show& tlo' Government have no business. 'I'hoir administration, or their legislation, during the current session has been perfectly innocu­ous. Last session was the first that I had the­honour of being present amongst you. \Ve rarely adjourned before 11 o'clock, and very often we stopped herf' all night and saw the jacarandt trees blooming in the garden in front. This session~-

The SPEAKER: Order! I have allowed the hon. member for Paddinr,-ton unusual latitude, and I now calJ upon the hon. mem­ber to resume his seat.

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill, 1147

Mr. FIHELLY: Mr. Speaker, I have an anwndment to moYe. I think it very unfair of you-very unfair, indeed.

Mr. BERTRAM (Jlurce): I rise for the PL!l'PO''e of exr~ressing my di,approval of this Illll, and particularly of the provision which sr,eks to re-enact the, postal vote. Tho Bill and the debate, to my mind, arc rcmarkabl<, for t_hrec thing d. First of all, the retro­grc·'}sive n:~ture of tho mca.surc provt·.;;; to me tha; the term "Liberal party" as applied to the pai·tv sitting opposite is an absolute m.is­nomor---it rhou!d be called tho " Tory pa:·ty." It also provo·, tlwt what ''as known as the old ponsorvaliv Philp party has again captured t ne Tr(\ :t3nrv benches becB use it will be noticed that no lr ;, than fi,:o of the gentle­men who were members of the party led bv t~e. han .. member .f?r Townsvillo when he ",:'s srttmg m Opposrl!on aw no,_,, on the front Troasnry br•nch. Th• debc.to has alco shown tho roma1~I~fi;Ll0 i~lconsis1 nne~,, and I might say tho po1thcal drshonosty, of sor..t1c members w~o are sitting behind tho Government. I wrll. endeavour t? show that by quotcng from theu spo:>ch·:s m " H:mc:lrd.'' \Vhilc the ~1on. men1~:"r for l\1undingburra \V1S speak~ ll1f:, he Sl!!d that the Trea~urcr had oppoE.:d the g-ranhng of the franchrsc to women and the Trc:burc•r replic d that tho statement was not true. )Yow, I wctnt to quote from "Han­~ard" to show that, when the measure was m~roducod which sought to confer the fran­chise on women, an amendment was moved by the ho_n. membc;· for Toowong, which was moved wrth the obJect of defeating the Bill and that amendment was supported by th~ Treasurer. \Vhen the han. gentleman re­enters the Chamber I propose to read the amendment moved by the han. member for Toowong and also the divi«ion list I have said that tho debate has shown th~ remark­able inconsistency and political dishonesty of some member; who are sitting behind the Government, and I propose to quote from the speeches of such han. members to show that that is so. The leader of the Govern­ment of the day, Mr. Kidston when this Bill was introduced, referred t~ the postal vo~e as a blemish on the Bill, and he also sard-

" I consider it is the dutv of the House to wipe out the postal :Vote root and branch, and wipe it out at once."

When the Hon. Thlr. Kidst<Jn gave utterance to those sentiments, he was leader of the qovernmer:t, and he was supported by some e;ght or nme members who are now sitting behind the present Government. I find that the clivi,ion list on the second reading of that Bill contains tho names amongst the " Ayes" of Messrs. Blair, Gunn, Grant Mackintosh Thomas 0' Sullivan, Rankin, 'and Roberts: I _wonder how _those han. gentlemen are gomg to reconcile their attitude on that ocea~ion with their attitude on this occasion.

Lleut .. Coionel RANKIN: Probably the same as :J\Ir. Fisher has donp. . lV~r. BERTRAM: I am glad of that inter­Jection from the han. member for Burrum I~ g.ives ';lle the opportunity of showing hrs mconsrstency. If there is one gentle­man more than another who should receive the palm for inconsistency, it is the hon. member for Burrum. In 1907 when the Bill was introduced in this Chamber it sought to abolish the postal-voting pro­visions of the Act. The han. member for Burrum voted for the second reading of that Bill. At a later stage, the han. member for Townsville, :1-Ir. Philp, then leader of the

Opposition, moved an amendmcdt in Co,m· mittee, which sought to reinsert the postal­Yote provi8ions; a.nd the hon. mmnber for Burrum, notwithstanding the fact Gmt a day or two before he voted to abolish the po.stal vote, voted on tha,t occasion to reinsert the postal vote. In the followin~ s,.ssion of Par­liament the Bill was reintro,duced whioh sought to abolish the postal vote, and the hon. member for I3urrum supjcorted it at every stage. Now, only a few yours later, whc·n it is sought to reintroduce the postal vote, the han. member for nurrum is sup r;-orting the Government which seeks to reintroduce it. The han. member has been so inconsistent that I hope, when we move an amendment in Committee to provide for the wiping out of the po<.tal vote, the han. member for Burrum will be found voting with us.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Hear, hear ! J\Ir. MORGAN: He is almost as bad as Mr.

Fisher. Mr. BERTRA11: Quite a number of mem­

bers on that occasion spoke of the Il)alprac­tice and corruption in connedion with the postal vote, and supported the GovHnm<mt which then sought to repeal it. The han, member for Fitzroy, Mr. Grant, spoke a• follows:-

"No one who had had the least experi­enc8 of the postal vote at the last electioH would desire to retain it . . . it de­stroyed the secrecy of the ballot. . . There had been so much bribery and conuption that he thought it better to wipe the postal vote out altogether."

I wonder how that hon. gentleman is going to reconcile that statement with the vote which he gave the other evening here. The han. member for East 'l'oowoomba, Mr. Roberts, on that occasion, according to " Hansard " said-

" The secrecy of the ballot was only possible by the abolition of the postal vote. Nothing else would make it secret. .... Ho was satisfied that if the postal vo,te was retained at the next election. it would just be one system of canvassing and taking the postai vote at the same time. For that reqson he would oppose the postal vote."

The hon. member for Carnarvon, who is usu,ally consistent, said on that occasion-

" At the last election the provisions of the postal vote were greatly abused, and sooner than see that abuse continue, it would be better to wipe it out alto­gether."

That han. gentleman also favoured provi· sio.no being made to enable absentees to vote. The han. member for Cunningham, Mr. Grayson, was also opposed to the postal vote at that time, and so also was tho han. member for \Vandck, Mr. G. P. Barn0s.

Mr. HUNTER: "What about the han. member for Camboo.ya?

Mr. BERTRAi\1: The hon. member for Cambooya-he is tho han. member for Pitts­worth now-voted on that occasion for the abolition of the postal vote.

Mr. M~CKINTOSH: It is only a fool who does not change his opinions occasionally. (Laugh­tor.)

Mr. BERTRAM: I have said the hon. member for Cunningham was opposed to the postal vote at that time, and I find, on look­ing through "Hansard," that he spoke as

Mr. Bertram.

1148 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

follows on an amendment moved by the han. member for Townsville to reinsert the postal vote in the Elections Bill :-

" He could not see his way to vote for the amendment .... At the declaration of the poll for Cunningham he stated emphatit:all:y that he would use every m•~·ans Ill Ius power to abolish the postal vote .... He was pre,ent at the declara­tion of th" poll at the Warwick election when he heard the present n1en1ber ~tat~ that hll was opposed to the po·<tal va,te and would do his utmmt to have it abolished. He also. heard his opponen+, 1\Ir. Barnes, who was equally emphatic in his objection to the postal vote, Fay he hoped It. would be aco]i,,hed at the fir,t opportunrty."

It will be interesting to note how the Han. T. O'Sullivan and the Han. A. H. Barlow and a number of other gentlemen in anvther Chamber arr• going to vote when this Bill reaches that Chamber. I have said that wh3t was known ?-S '• the old Philp party" is now the predonunant party on the other side of the HouF•J. (Hear, hear:) Th,, fact that no less than five 1\linisters are men who ,,at Qn this side of the House when the hon. member for 'l'owncville was ,leader of the Opposition is the :strongest possible evidence that the party opposite is no longer the Liberal party, but what is known as "the old Conservative Philp party." I am surprised that the han. members from whose spr•eches I have quoted are now found supporting a measure which they condemned only a year or two ago. It only goes to prove to my mind that many of these han. gentlemen ani, as the hon. member for Merthyr said ]apt night, men who have not the courage of their convictions or they are politically dishonP">t in now supporting a measure which they strenuo.usly condemned a. year or two ago. (Hear, hear!) They either have not~ the cour;,ge of their convic­tions, or the:y have been brvught to heel by the party wlup on the other side or they are politically dishonest and inconsi~tent in' sup­porting a measure that they condemned as they did a year or two ago." I am at a lops to un.derstand why an attempt is being made to remtroduce the postal vote.

Mr. FoLEY: Becanse they cannot win an election without it. ·

Mr. BERTRAM: It must be because they cannot win an election without it. Thev fear the result of the next election. This is'bcing done to restrict the franchise.

Mr. MORGAN: What about the last election? Mr. BERTRAM: The last Federal election

proved that the Liberal party have lost the confidence of the people, and when an appeal ill made to the electors I am confident that the party on this side of the House will increase in sufficiently large numbers to enable them to form a Gover!lment.

'\Ir. MoRGAN: We have heard that for twe.nty years.

Mr. BERTRAM: The han. member for Townsville, speaking the other evening said the postal vote was abolished when th~ Kidston party were being supported by the Labour party, and that the han. member for Fortitude Valley was " the power behind the throne." There is a good deal of truth in that. The position is altered to-day. The power behind the throne is not the han. member for Fortitude Valley, but the hon. member for Townsville, and the difference is this : While the han. member for ForWude

[J{1·. Bertram.

Valley was the power behind the throne we were getting good progres:sive legislation, but since the hon. member for Townsville has been the power behind the throne we got nothing but retrogressive legislation-the In­dustrial Peace Act and the Elections Acts Amendment Bill. A further proof that cor­mption is attached to the postal vote is to

be found in the message that this [9.30 p.m.] Chamber sent to the other Cham-

ber when, in 1907, the Upper Hou"e refused to pass an Elections Acts Amendment Bill abolishing the postal vote. Han. members will remember that the postal vote was first enacted in 1905.

Han. R. PHILP: By the Labour party.

Mr. BERTRAM: Not by the Labour party, but by the Kidston party, supported by the Labour party.

Mr. MORGAN: They were the power behind the throne.

Mr. BERTRA::\1: I said that the han. member for Fortitude Valley w«s the power behind the throne when the postal vote was repealed. ~What I wanted to show was this : That in two years the experience of the Act was sufficient to show that there 11as so much corruption attached to the postal vote that this Assembly passed a Bill repealing it, and the only opposition to the amending Bill c&me from what was known <ts the old Con­,,ervative Philp party. The Bill passed through this Chamber, and it wont to the other Chamber, ''·here the postal vote "as reinserted. This House disagreed with their amendment for reasons set out in a message. I prope'e to read the m<',o,age, because it gop' to show just what this Chamber thought of the postal-vote provisions. The message reads as follows:-

" The Legisl<ttive Assembly having had under consideration the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Elections Acts Amendment Bill, beg now to intimate that they-

" Disagree to the omission of clause 3, because the retention of the provisions relating to the postal vote threatens the secrecy of the ballot and affords facilities for intimidation and undue influence."

That message shows that this A'sembly was of opinion that it destroyed the secrecy of the ballot, and afforded opportunities for intimidation.

Mr. BEBBINGTON: Not the members of this Assembly.

Mr. BERTRAM: No fewer than a dozen members who now are sitting behind the Government. supported that message. The message was sent to the other Chamber, and the other Chamber still insisted on inserting the postal-vote provisions. This Chamber sent another mes•mge, which reads as follows:-

"The Legislative Assembly having had under consideration the Legislative Council's message, of 24th October, rela­tive to the Elections Acts Amendment Bill, beg now to intimate that they insist on their disagreement t-o the amendments made by the Legislative Council, because by the retention of the system of postal voting women electors might be deprived of the free exercise of the franehise, inas­much as the facilities for intimidation and the opportunities for interference with the secrecy of the ballot would undoubtedly act as a deterrent, and

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1149

because the difficulties of obtaining evi­dence renders conviction a matter of extreme difficulty."

It shows that this Chamber was in favour of wiping out tho postal-vote provisions because of the corruption to which they were open, and I am surprised-I reiterate it-that a number of members on that side of the Hou'' who spoke as they did in support of this postal vote on the present oooasion sup­ported its abolition, and now sit behind the Government and tolerate its re-enactment. V\T.hile the Home Secretary was speaking the other evening, he made what, to my mind, was a remark that certainly reflected dis­credit on a number of members of his own party, and I ,am surprised that not one of them has resented it. I find that he spoke as follows :-

"You are aware as well as I am, Mr. Speaker, that when the Government of that day found that a certain vote was against them, they determined to have it wiped out, and having the support of the Labour party at their backs-for that is a necessary conjunction-were pre­pared to make practically any statements with the object of carrying those repeal­ing clauses into operatigri."

Hon. R. PHILP : Perfectly true. "We know that the Government party

at that time, supported by the Labom· party, were determined to bring about the repeal of those clauses, and it did not matter what was said to justify them, or to apparently justify them-for it was a very eerious matter to deprive the very large number of persons who from that time on have been unable to record their votes-and they had then to make out as good a ca>e as they could."

Let me remind the Home Secretary that his colleague, the Secretary for Public Instruc­tion, then was supporting the Government that repealed the postal-vote provisions. Let me also remind him that the Hon. T. O'Sullivan and the Hon. A. H. Bar­low also were supporting the Government: of the day, and that the hon. member for Tooweomba, the hen. member for Fitzroy, and the hon. member for Burrum, and other hon. members were all supporting the Go­vernment of that day. I am surprised that none of thew hon. gentlemen have got up and resented what I may call the insulting remarks of the Home Secretary. Now, it is not my inh'ntion to take up a great deal of time in discussing this Bill. I am hopeful that when the Bill reaches the Committee si;age a number of hon. members on the other side will be found voting for amend­ments to be moved by members on this side of the House. But before I leave the Bill, seeing that the Treasurer again is in the Chamber, let me again refer to his vote in 1904 on the Electoral Franchiee Bill. When the hon. member for Mundingburra was speaking, he stated that the Treasurer had opposed the granting of the franchi!e t>o women, and the hon. gentleman interjected, "That is not correct." Now, the Electoral Franchise Bill of 1904 sought to confer the franchise on women, and the hon. member for Toowong, Mr. 1'.1:acartney, moved an amendment, as follows:-

" This Act shall not come int<l force or hav.e any effect until the coming into operation of an Act to be passed by the Parliament of Queensland, whereby pro­vision should be made for the reduction

"'of the number of the members of the Legislative Assembly to a specified num­ber, and the redistribution of the State into electoral districts upon the basis of a quota of electors ascertained by divid­ing the whole number of electors m the State by such specified number of mem­bers . with such reasonable margin of allowance as should be specified, and for the return by each such district of a mem­ber or members in accordance with such quota.''

Now, the object of that amendment was to defeat the Bill. There was no doubt about that.

Hon. R. PHILP and GOVERNMENT MEMBERS' No, no!

Mr. BERTRAM: It may be said that the object was to delay the Bill, but the obje"Ct was to defeat it.

Hon. R. PHILP : You know nothing about i~ .

• Mr. BERTRA::\1: There is no doubt that that was the object of the amendment, and I find that the following members supported the amendment-again the gentlemen who are known as the members of the old Con­servative Philp party :-Mr. Barnes, M1·. Campbell, Mr. Cribb, Mr. Forrest, Mr. Fox, Mr. Hanran, Mr. J. Leahy, Mr. P. J. Leahy, Mr. Macartney, Mr. Paget, Mr. Philp, and Mr. Stodart.

The TREASURER: You certainly have not proved your point.

Mr. BERTRAM: If I have not proved my point, it is not possible to prove it. (qo­vernment laughter.) But the fact remams that had that amendment b('iln carried the women would not have had the vote to-day, and there is no disguising the fact that _the party that was in opp'?sition at that time was against the grantmg of the vote to women.

The TRE>\SURER : That is not so.

Mr. BERTRAM: It is all very well for the hon. member to say that that is not cor­rect, but, to my mind, it is. clear that that party was opposed to grantmg the vote to women. There are ~orne things in the Bill of which I approve. I am glad to note that it is proposed to adopt the same system of voting as is used in the Commonwealth elec­tions. I regret that the Government has not tried to make the Bill more on the lrnes of the Commonwealth Act, for I believe that they could have copied that Act to a much greater extent than they have, w;th advantage to the Bill. However, I hope that when the Bill reaches the Committee stages, a number of hon. gentlemen on the ot!"ter side of the House will be found supportmg the amend­ments which are to be moved by members on this side. I note that it is proposed to revert to the old system of advertising the names on the roll in the Press. I am not going to say that that is alt?gether a bad thing, but I am n<;>t :yet satiS;fie~ t~at the expense which it w11l mvo_Ive IS JUStified. I am inclined to look upon It as a sop to the· Press by the Government. The practice was discontinued because it was thought that the· expense was not justified. I believe that at the time that provision was made for a~-.:er­tising the roll~ the expense of ad vertrsmg­was something like .£5, 000 or .£6, 000 per­annum, and at that time there were only 90 000 names on the roiL I believe there are n~arly three times that number on the rolt now, so that it is not unreasonable to assume-

Mr. Bertrarn.]

1150 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

that the expense will run into £15 ood' or £16,000 por ammm, and I am not ~atis(ied that that expenditure will bo justified. I do ~ot prv;lue to say anything further just now, nut shall conclude by movmg an amendment. I move that the word " now" be omitted ?-nd that after tho word " time " there b~ mserteJ the words " this day six months."

A GOVERXMEKT ME)IllER: Tho same old gag.

Mr. BERTRAM: The object of the amend­~ent is obvious, and I need not take up the time of the House by further dilating upon It. I now formally mo·, e the amendment.

Mr. HU;\JTER (J[aranoa): I rise with "'Onle. ht,::litution to a.ddre~<3 n1y.'''2lf to the questiOn before the House, because we have had hom lll?mhers on the other side speeches of qmte a d1vers,. character, and I .am rather ~nxw1;s t-o ~:arn on what terrns \Ve are going mto C;n~mJttee OJ?- tho Bill. I am not quito ,sure o, tne attitude of the Government with regard to tho measure.

Hon. R. PHILP : Take a vote and you will .sec hhat it is. '

Mr. H Ci-JTER: I do not propose to trust .to anythmg of th.: sort. I have had some exper1ence before in the matter of votes, and I prefer to 8X!Hess my views on this Bill befo~e the_ question goes to a division. If one 1s to Judge by the speeches which have been deliYered by members on the Govern­ment side of the House, one mw't come to the conclusion that the party on th" other side. are eith~r repudiating the Bill or trying to s1de-step 1t. There can be no question as to what the Bill means, or what the Home Secretary meant when he introduced tho Bill Clearly the Bill and the speech went weli together, but we do not find that that will be the ca·'e with a number of the sneeches delivered by other members on that 'side of the House. No one would imagine for a moment, from the speech delivered by the Home Secretary, that he was not in favour of the Bill. The hon. gentleman left no .doubt in the minds of his listeners as to what he meant; he came down and de:lared in trumpet tones that there was a great deal of electoral corruption, that the whole electoral _sy~tem needed wiping out, 'and that restncl!ons must be imposed in order to purify the electoral rolls, and ensure that polling throughout tho State was properly guarded and protected. This Bill, the hon. gentleman intimated, was the last word on electoral reform. It was tD determine for all time who should vote, how they should vote, and how they should obtain the right to vote. It was the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end of all things as far as electoral reform is concerned-as far as Tory democracy is concerned. vV e have this peculiar circumstance : that the Home Secretary is continually proclaiming th? democracy that he and his party enter­tam.

GOVERNMENT ME1IBERS : Hear, hear !

Mr. H"GNTER: A democracy peculiar to gentlemen sitting on that side of the House who repre~cmt the Tories of Tories. '

Mr. BEBBINGTON: \Ye represent the electors.

Mr. H"GNTER: I quite believe that it is the last word on electoral reform, .as far as the Tory democracy is concerned. Those words are to my mind trnly prophetic, be­cause I think this is the last time the present Tory Government will have an opportunity of

Jjjfr. Bertram.

dealing with the rights of the people in the way they propose to deal with them in this Bill.

The SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE: You should be very glad.

~~Ir. HuNTER : I am glad, but I feel '"omewhat sorry for my friends opposite. Let us sco what their democracy is worth. What does the Home Secretary propose to do in this Bill? He propose~, first of all, to re­peal the absentee vote. Why? Then he pro­poses to reintroduce the reprehensible system of po1tal voting, which has been condemned by every member sitting on that side of the House who has any pretension whatever to­wards Liberalism. The :Minister for Public Inbtruction sat as Attorney-General in the Kid,·ton Government, which repealed this yicious postal-voting system.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIO INSTRUCTION : The principles are not the same.

)Jr. HUNTER: Doe' tho han. gentleman me em that his principlEcs are not the same?

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : I would not make any comments on yours.

J\Ir. Hl.;'?\TER: The hon. gentleman can rnako any co!nlnt:mt he pleases on my prin­cipk··; I am perfectly content to hear any­thing the hon. gentleman may have to say regarding my principles. I say that the hon. gentleman sat as Attorney-General on the front Trcasnry bench, and supported the Government who repealed the vicious system of postal voting.

The S~CRETA!lY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : That was quite consistent with my present attitude.

Hon. R. PHILP: It was repealed with your support.

Mr. H"GNTER: I have seen the postal-vot­ing system at \1 ark; I have heard other members in this Chamber who have had ex­perience of it state what they think about it; I have read of the experience in con­nection with postal voting in other Stutes; and I have not heard or read of any person who can suggest a remedy by which you can get rid of the evils associated with postal voting. If we are to ha vc a pure roll and honest voting, we cannot get it under that system. Those who have had experience of it must surely know that. The Home Secretary propo:>es to reintroduce that sys­tem, and to make the residential qualifica­tion so strict as to prevent nearly every bush-workm from getting on the roll. He proposes to bombard persons desiring to be registore l with inquisitorial and usr~·less que'tions. He has decided to preserve the property vote with all its iniquitous powers and privileges.

Mr. M9RGAN: What are you reading from?

Mr. HUNTER: I am reading something that the hon. member could not write. He also proposes to simplify the method of re· moving nam<"s from the electoral rolls. These are some of the provisions that this Tory-Democracy is aiming to bring about in Queensland-this Liberal-Tory-Democratic Government. Let us undcTstand something of what all this means to Queensland.

'Th,• SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC IKSTRUCTION : Hear, hear! That is a good idea.

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1151

Mr. HUNTER: The hon. member says "It is a good idea." I dare say, <tS far as he is concerned, that it will not be a bad thing in practice, and that is probably why we lind the Government doing the things they propose to do under this Bill. We find that there is no perfect agreement amongst the party opposite, or else we cannot take .their speeches seriously. Either the Bill is going to be altered, or else it is going to be dropped. The han. member for JYiurrumba stated tho other night that this is not the Bill that is going to be passed. I hope it is not. ThB Chief SBcretary said he heard the call for electoral reform, and he seemed to indicate, aftBr the speech of the leader of the Opposition, that therB was something the matter with the Bill-th<1t the Bill was not what he oon•,idered it should be--and then WB begin to find out something different. It may be that they stiil intend to pass this measuco in its present form. The han. gentk:nan said he heard tho call for elec­toral r' form, and he was going to give every person a. vote who was entitled to a vote, <1nd ev""Y person W<ts going to get on the wll if he was entitled to get on the roll. But l< t ns url !co· stand the mnthod. Tho hon. gc_·ntleman was to ~J.Y \\ ho "\Vas entitled to get on the roll, ;•nd he YC'lS alP'l to sav how they whould vote. I£ the hon. gent'lcrnan vvould a1lo--<r n1o to make n1y O\Yl1 conditions, I could 1na ~-:-c all sorts of pro1nises and hedge them round with ail sorts of cr n­cl.ition-:. That is >Yhat this Bill pronosu to do. The leadnr of the Govc,-nmcl:t mid: " \V c propose to allow them to do it unr~·c•r proper conditions." He w:-s to be the J\Ios<es who \Y:u going to kad the neonlc of hracl out of Egyptio,n bondage. I'i:e \vas ~Coing to cut th<eir shackles and give them TlOlitical freedom. -

The Hm!E SECRETARY : You are to be Pharaoh.

Mr. HUNTER: I think the han. o-entle­man will be Pharaoh. (Opposition laughter.)

The HOME SECRETARY: It is the fair road to reform, anyhow. (Loud laughter.)

~r. HUXTER: Instead of leading the chrldron of Israel, he was speakin.,. for the host of Pharaoh, who wishes to e;slavo the people, and who wishes that they should have no political freedom except what he himself is prepared to grant t·hem. He wishes to strike them off the roll. He refuses to allow them to get on the roll, and if they do happen to get on the roll he tries to '}re­ven~ them from recording their votes. After te!lmg us that he had heard the call -for political reform, he told us that domicile according to him, was the essence of th~ Bill. What did that mean? It me<1nt the prevBntion of a large number of electors from getting their namPs on the roll. Then, he told us that one of the most sacred things was the prope.rty vote-that men who had secured by their industry, after twenty-five or thirt:y ye3;rs, a P!ece of property, had a sacred nght ror aJl trme to have their names on the roll, and have it where they pleased. The labourBr, on the other hand who took his work where it was required was un­worthy of consideration, and the' leader of the Opposition, because he darBd to suggest that this class of worker took his work where he could obtain some sort of support for his family, was told that he had no regard for the welfare of the rural dweller-that he had .a contemptuous disregard for the man who

had a fixed place of abode. I have yet to learn that because the leader of the Opposi­tion, or any member sitting on this side, or, as a matter of fact, on that side of the Honse, if by accident it should occur, was broad­minded enough to have rega.rd for the wel­fare, not of any particul<1r body of peoplB, but for the whole community-that on that : ,r:_8unt Le has a contemptuous disregard for some bpecial interests. Members who speak on those lines have very little respect for th~ obligations that come to them as represBnta­tivH of tho people. \Ve were told that these n1en vvho arc call-ed '• no1nads " are not entitled to " vote.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUD-riON': Th~t is not so.

\1r•. HUNTER: What el'e does it mean? Tl1<1t because they have no place that they can call home, tend because they arc .unable to remain long enough in one electorate to gf t their n.unes on the roll, or are not able to stay there lc.ng· enough to <.nable them to vote, they shr.mld he dep,-ind of a vote, and tho only means by which they can g~t a Yolo-by means of the absentee vote-1s taken aw<1y, and a system which makes it impossible for them to get a vote is sub­stituted.

The SECRETARY FOR Pt:BLIC INSTRUCTION : That is a most inaccurate statement.

Mr. HUNTER: It is not an inaccurate statemenL It has been clearly shown that tho carriLr, the droycr, the shearer, or the s1ega.r-workor, whose vocations call them from one part of tho State to .another, cannot get on the roll, and when they are on the roll they are liable to be struck off because they have no permanent abode. In substituting tho postal vo!.;, for the absentee vote, the Government are certainly 'hawing a whole­c:nne disn•gard for the ordinary bush worker, who is unable to get permanent emp'oyment, and, indeed, it would be a very bad thing for a number of industries in this State if those m<>n were not available. It would be a bad thing for tho industries of Queemland if these men were co:1tinuously in employment in ono nlacc. Our industric s are of such a nature -that men are required in variou& parts of the State for a few months at <1 time-they cannot be permanently employed in one place-and they must be prepared to move ahout the State and take employm(lnt where thPy can get it. Those are the men who are marked out by the Government for th 1 purpose of being deprived of their votes. Then, on the other hand, they propose to violat0 thn secrecy of the ballot by insisting upon the provisions of the postal vote, which h<1s been proved to be most corrupt in its operutiDn. This is tD be done by a Govern­rnent led by the Chief Secretary, who de­thwned the 'l'ory party, and whD helped to give us adult suffrage-and I say that that was to his credit-which is to-day enjoyed iu Queensland. Now we find an attempt bning made to take awav tho nrivil~ges then gin,n, and to once rrwre strengthen the buh•:arks of conservatism.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : How can you say that?

Mr. HUNTER: HDw can I say anything else? I ask anyone who examines the Bill in its present form, whether it is not a step back intD a darker period of our history? 'l'he Peace Preservation Act which the han.

Mr. H-unter.}

1152 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

gentleman pa~scd last session '.vas also a step Lack. Onc0 more, the power which has con­trolled the Treasury benchr• for years is prepured to do anything to deprive mo.st of th~ people of the privileges which they cnJoy-tD take one thin9' aftt~r another from the people of the Stab:~ If that is not so, and if this Government arc in favour of univerc,'Ll suffrage-and that is what we are led by the interiections of the Home Secre­tary and the Sec"rctary for Pnblic Instruction to. under•tand-in hinging a Bill down like th~s, there shoul.d, at any rate, be three prmmples rccogmsed. First there should be facilities for enrolment. Eut we find that the Bill requir<c·s that the neonle in order to get a vote, shall be longer ;,.sident in this State than in any other State of the Commonwealth. "While it is six months in Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania, and only three months in New South Wales, we are h~re asking that in Queensland it shall hil twelve months. Formerly we only asked that, if a person removed from one elec­torate to another, he should live one month in that electorate before he was enrolled, but in this Bill we are asking that he should be two months in the electDrate. Are not these instances which will make it more diffi­cult than ever to get on the State roll 1 If the Government are in favour of adult suffrage, it would be expected that the oppor­tunities for the exercise of the franchise should be given as freely as possiblP, but the Government are restricting those oppor­tu_nities. Then, another power~ taken by the B1ll should be the prevention and detection of any offences against the Act. The three principles I have mentioned should be the governing principles in any measure of elec­to.ral reform, but instead of that we find that the case is quite the opposite. This measure is not g-iving facilities for enrolment; it is not giving opportunities for the exercise of t·he franchise. after people arc enrolled ; and !ns~ead of. try~ng to detect and prevent crime, 1t Is malnng 1t necessarv almost for crime to be committed. Anothe~ ol,jection I have to this Bill is that it is a reactionary measure in all respects, except in regard to the Elections Tribunal; if possible. it makes the day further distant for the possibility of securing. uniform electoral rolls in the State and Common­wealth, which, I think, is very important. We are told by the Horne Secretary that the reason for this Bill is the desire to ret political purity. I ask, which party in: this Chamber stands for political purity 1

Mr. KESSELL: The Liceral party.

Mr HUNTER: Where is there a Liberal party? Not in this Chamber. There is a Labour party on this side, but there is a Tory party on the opposite side. If anybody in this country .were asked to-day which o.f these two partws-the Tory partv or the Labour party-stood for political pi'Irity, the answer would undoubtedlv be that the party which has stood for political purity for the last twenty years is the !)arty sitting on this side of the Chamber. In times gone by owners and ~anagers of stations \vho acted as returnmg officers considered it a solemn duty to see that every absentee on a station recorded his vote on Dolling-day. It is ra!hcr interesting to refer to some of the thmn that were done in thP early days with regard to. double voting. The following is an Pxtract which I have taken from a local paper:-

" Jhe battle for supremacy between the old-c1me squatter who wanted to consoli-

[Mr. Hunter.

date his run by means of dummies, walking-fences, pre-ernptives, and auction sales, and the other feilo w went steadily on _for twenty ::oars until Moil vvraith and Gnffith cau1o to "an honourable under­standing·." Since then politic,; haYc be­come a' inextricably mixed as a basket of livf'- cr L. The means to the end­that of securing the election of the favoured candidate-may vary in detail from the old-time style, but. taken as a whole, there is a close resemblance. Now, as then, men vote for abent friends, and ofttimes oblige total strang·ers, either of the quick or dead. Of course, tho oppor­tunities were greater then than now, but the present crowd is doing very well in the way of knocking out a political antagonist. ·when I read of how votes are polled in tho name of some other unit of the body politic, I shudder to think how public opinion would be recorded if you had the opportunities granted to us forty. years ago. Then the revision courts were not too inquisitive, and very little notice was taken of th()c demise of a voter. Have known a voter in your Raff street, whose name remained on the roll for nine years after he was. laid to rest in the Dalby cemetery. But his vote was never wasted; it was reli.giously recorded ~t every election. Th1s was only followmg- out the usual custom, for w'hen we felt a doubt about the safety of our candidate we comman­deered the cemeteries for all available votes. Knew one man in 1873 who voted three times for himself and sixteen times for as many dead friends. And yet Davenport was leagues behind Pechey for the Aubigny election contest."

That is an article which appeared in the [laper belonging to the Secretary for Public Lands, written by "Ben Bolt,'' one of the "old timers," and I am sure the hon. gentle­man would not have allowed it to appear in his paper if it were not true.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Didn't yo•1 assist in polling those sixteen votes 1

Mr. HUNTER: At the time of which the han. gcntkman is speaking, I did not have a vote at all.

ThB SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : Didn't you use your influence to get those votes 1

J\tlr. HUNTER: No; distinctly not. I never used my influence in favour of a can­didate for the party to which the hon. gentle­man belongs in my life. I never canvassed for any one representing the other side.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS : I know better than that.

Mr. HUNTER : The han. gentleman do!l>l not know better than that.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC LANDS: Yes. I have your telegram to that effect, too. (Go· vernment laughter.)

Mr. HUNTER: The hon. gentleman may have my telegram asking him to ask Mr. Morgan whether I was the endorsed candi­date for the Morgan Darty or not. That is all that the telegram he got from me asked, and he can publish it in his rag to-morrow if he likes.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear! and Go­vernment laughter.

Elec'ions Acts [3 SEP'l'E~fBER.] Amendment Bill.

Mr. HUNTER: Neither he nor anv other member of the party opposite can turn up any telegram or letter from me in which I committed myoelf to tho Tory Government or party. My contention is_ that the party !Yluch. has, alwa:ys stood for political purity m th1s State 1s the Labour party. \Ve ~re told th<;> rea•on why this postal vote 1s to be remtroduced is to enable certain people who are. remote from a polling-booth, or who have w1vos who are unable to go and vote, and that sort of thing, to record their votes. ~ow, what is the experience of the postal-vote? It was in the big centres that the post"'] vote was taken advantage of, "hi!'" in the scattered centre•; it was not u•ed at all. At the election in 1907 or 1908 when the postal vote was used, in Barcao-'-which is a scattered district-there were only fifty-three votes recorded ; in Balonne--one of tho most. scattered electorates in the State-there were only forty-seven; in \VDothakata.-another very sc.atte,red district-there were only 30 ; wh!lst m Charters Towers there were 1, 748: and m ToowoDmba something like 1,500. We know from experience that the postal vote was not used m the countrv districto. The cou!'ltry people travel long d!stances to record th01r votps. ) .. t my first election -Jne wuman rode 50 miles with her husband to voce for me.

A GovERNMENT MExiBER: And I suppose she would travel 50 miles now to vote against you. (Government laughter.)

Mr. HUNTER : It is not nece'''sary for her to travel so far now, but she ha'> voted everv time cinco in the same way. She has enough sense to turn down the Government candidate when one cDmes along. \Ve know that the postal vote has also bee-n tried in the Com­monwealth elect:ons, and I wish to quote the following remarks made bv the Hon. Mr. Roberts, M.H.R., Hon. Minister in the late Fisher Government:-

" We know that the postal voting sys­tem was provided for the benefit of those who were about to become mothers. And ye~ it is _shown that this person actually caJoled smgle women into sio-ning before h_im, as a justice of the pe~ce, declara­tions that they were married and that their condition prevented them from going to the poll to record their votes. Do honourable members want further proof of a more extensive fraud. or of t~e. possibilities of fraud, under the pro­VlS!Dns of an Act which permitted of these soulless and CDnscienceless individuals deceiving women and inducing them to s1gn statements of that description? Hon. members opposite know that the postal voting provisions of the Commonwealth Ac~ were abused at the general elections whwh took place three years ago. Are they prepared to say that in one elec­torate in Victoria there were more women ill than there were in practically the who!<; of mme of the other Stateq? They certamly say that they were if they al­lege that the postal voting s:vst.em was not ab:.~sed at the general elect1 'n of 1910. The re-enactment of the postal voting s:vetem will not give greater facili­ties for honest voting, but it will increase the facil:ti"' for fraud. It will enable the unscr,Ipulous to take advantage of the innocent. The system certainly doee enable a certain class of individual to stuff the ballot-box. When canva<sing in dis­tricts outside my own electorate-and we do this work ourselves; we do not pay other people to do it for us-I have

1913-4 B

been astounded, on going froin d110r to door and reminding the lady inmates W'lO

""',lOndcd to my knocking that it was election day, to have the statement made to me, " Oh, we voted before Mr. So­and-so, two weeks ago. Mr. So-and-so is the paid agent of tho Liberal side." In the circumstances, we felt justified in removing from the Eledoral Act the pro­vision· for postal voting, and in giving: to the electors greater facilities for the· exercise of the franchise. Our conduct­has brum judiiied by the faJt that at the r<>cent elections there was a higher per­centage of votes than at any previous election during the Federal life."

The experience of Queensland has been the experience of mo;t places where the postal vote has been tried, and I think we would be wise to take notice o£ that. Hon. mem­bers opposite must have forgotten the great trouble there was in connection with the postal vote. vVe know that a person wanting to vote by post had to make application to the returning officer, and it might take a week for the application to reach the return­ing officer. Then the ballot-paper had to go back to the applicant; then he had to find some p<>rwn who was qualified to witness it, and it had then to be sent back to the return­ing officer. I regret that it should nDw be proposed to revert to a system which proved beyond all doubt to be a system capable of no end of corruption. I would like to see, if it were possible, the privilege granted to those who arc sick or who are unable to a!tcnd a polling-booth, if it could be dDne under proper restrictions.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : That is what it is proposed to do now'.

Mr. HUNTER: \'\'hen the hon. gentreman was Attornev-General he could not find the means to do it, fD how can he do it now when he is Secretarv for Public Instruction? FivP or six y{_ars ago, vvith all his po"\vers, intellectual and otherwise". he was not able to copB with it.

The SECRE1'ARY FOR Pl:BLIC INSTRUCTION : Fiv" or six years ago it was not suggested.

Mr. HUNTER: I was in this Cham bel' fivC> or ·:ix years ago when it wa' suggested by the hon. "member for Townsville, speaking very much from where I am speaking nDw, that it was possible to hedge the postal vote round with restrictions, and the hon. gentle­man said that it was not possible.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTJO)l : I never said anything of the sort.

Mr. HUNTER: Well, that was what was said by the hon. gentleman's leader, and the hon. gentleman voted with him, so that it amounts to the same thing. ThE' Secretary for Public Instruction said that it was not possible to hedge this round with sufficient precautions, and, therefore, he said they should let it go by the bnard. I suppose his leader consulted him on that occasion, and asked him if he could find some legal way of hedging it round. He did not think there was a way then, but he asks us to do it now. There may be some object in it. I would be sorry to think that there was some motive underlying this. I am satisfied that it is a good thing to amend the Elections Tribunal Act. I was on the panel of asses­sors for a number of years, but I have never acted in that capacity. I am glad that I did not act, when we have members like the hon. member for Port Curtis saying that only party men went on the panel of

Mr. Hunter.]

1154 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

assessors. If there were many members like the hen. member for Port Curtis on the panel of assessors at 'the Elections Tribunal, it would be sufficient.to turn the whole thing into a party concern. It would be turned by the example of the hon. member for Port Curtis himself. The better plan would bG to appoint a judge to preside and adjudi­cate on these questions. I am in favour of that. It is the only thing that I can find in this Bill that I am -in favour of.

Mr. KESSELL interjected.' ' Mr. HUNTER : I cannot catch the hen.

gentleman's interjection, but it is sure to be either oom<ething insulting or something foolish, and this is not the time for me to· S>lter into a debate with him. I would like to <tsk the hon. member for Fitzroy, who maqe a point in his speech of accusing Labour men of intimidation, if there is not gr<>ater intimidation in connection with the Liberal party than there is in connection with any other party? Look at the treat­ment meted out to the late Speak<er of the New Soutli \Vales Parliament because of the votE} ,he . gave and because he accepted the ::}pc:gtkership outside of his party. There -is no greater case of hounding down -a man than that, and no greater case of intimidation, so that members of the Libeml party have no room to throw mud at us in connection with these matters. We should try to deal with this question as to what is in the best interests of the State. The legislation we pass through this Chamber is a very serious matter, particu­larly with regard to the r-ight of the people to say who shall govern them. We should give the people all thB eleqtoral freedom they wish to enjoy,· and let them say who shall govern them; and if they decide in favour of hon. gentlemen opposite I have no fault to find with them. I am quite will­ing to allow the people the right to do it, and abide by the result. I would not quarrel with the people of Queensland if they decided that they preferred to be governed by the. hen. members opposite.

The SECRETARY FOR PUBLIC INSTRUCTION : How could you 1

Mr. HUNTER: The hen. gentleman evid<ently does, for he is not willing to give them the opportunity. Why not say £o the people, "You are free citizens, and you shall have the right to select whom you wish to govern you 1" This Bill does not propose to do that. The hen. gentleman knows perfectly well that this Bill does not propose to do that. This Bill does not pro­pose to give them freedom, but it proposes to bind and shackle them as no free British-, 1 ~ J 1 1 1 T T 1 l 1 uuru bUUJ-eCL MlUUJu ue. J. nave rnuun p1easure in seconding the amendm<ent.

At 10.25 p.m., The PREMIER: I move that the question

be now put. Mr. RYAN: The question has not been

stated yet. : Question stated.

The PREMIER: I move that the question be now put.

Mr. RYAN: Mr. Speaker, I propose to support the amendment moved by the hen. in<ember for Maree.

The SPEAKER: Order ! The Chief Sec­retary has moved that the question be now put. . I think that there has been sufficient debate upon· this question. · [~ r .. H.ffnt,m·~

Mr. RYAN: I have not spoken on this question yet. This is a new question.

The SPEAKER: When 'the order of leave to introduce this Bill was proposed, no less than forty-three members spoke on it and on the amendments. On the second reading of the Bill thirty-six members have spoken, and the speeches are largely a reiteration of the arguments used in the previous de­bates. I am of opinion that the question has been sufficiently debated.·

Mr. RYAN: You have not_heard any argu­ment from me at all on this question. This question has not been discussed at all.

The SPEAKER : The question is that the question be now put.

Mr. RYAN: It is absolutely scandalous. There has been no discussion at all on this question ; none at all.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS : Gag, gag !

Question-That the question be now put­put; and the House divided:-

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P.

Barnes, W. H. , Bebbington

Blair Booker Bouchard Bridges Uaine Cribb Denham

,, Forsyth Grant Gunn Kessell Luke

, Mackay

AYES, 33. Mr. Mackintosh

Macrossan Morgan

, l'aget Petrie Philp Hankin Roberts Somerset Dteven.s

n Stodart Swavne Tolffiie Trout Walker White

Tellers: Mr. Swayne and Mr. Walker.

Mr. Adamson Barber Bertram Bowman

, Coyne Fihclly Foley Gilday Gillies Hamilton Hunter

NoEs, 21. ;\Jr. Huxham

Land Larcom be

·" May ,, McCOrmack

O'~ullivan Payne Hyan Theodore Winstanley

Tellers: Mr. Bertram and Mr. Larcom be.

PAIRS.

Ayes-Mr. Williams, Mr. Douglas, and Mr. Macartney.

Noes-Mr. Lennon, Mr. Murphy, and Mr. Kirwan.

Resolved in the affirmative.

Question-That the word proposed to be omitted (Mr. Bertram's a.mendmwt) stand part of the question-put; and the House divided:-

Mr. Appel , Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, \V. H. , Bebbington

Blair Booker Bouchard

,. Bridges ,, Caine , Cribb

Denham , Forsyth

Grant Gunn Kessell

, Luke , Mackay

AYES, 33. Mr. Mackintosh

, Macrossan " j\.forgan

Paget Petrie Philp

,, Rankin Roberts Somerset

,, Stevens Stodart

,, -Swayne , Tolmie ,, Trout , Walker , White

Tellers: Mr. Caine and Mr. Morgan.

Elections Acts [3 SEPTl!lMBER.] Amendment Bill~ 1155

Mr. Adamson , Barber " Bertram , Bowman , Coyne , Fihelly , Foley , Gilday

Gillies , Hamilton , Hunter

Tellers: Mr.

NoEs, 21.

Mr. Huxham Land

, Larcompe , May

McCormack , 0' Sullivan

Payne Ryan

, Theodore , Winstanley

Barber and Mr. Huxham.

PAIRS. Ayes-Mr.

Macartney. Williams, Mr. Douglas, snd Mr.

Noes-Mr. Kirwan.

Lennon, Mr. Murphy, and Mr.

Resolved in the affirmative.

Mr. BOWMAN (Fortitude Va~ley): I do n<;>t propose .to allow this Bi~l to go through w1tho:'t ~avmg a word on 1t, Mr. Speaker, even ill vww of your numbering the speakers who have spoken on it. Each member I think, is allowed 4.0 minutes by the Standing Orders, and . I thmk every member is en-

titled to get that time if he de­[10.30 p.m.] sires it. I think there is one

patent reason for the introduction of this Bill: To my mind it is very clear indeed that when the last Federal general election took place there was a scare on that side of the House, and the result is that this Bill has been brought in to try to check any efforts that the Labour party might make at the forthcoming general election. When the Home Secretary introduced this Bill he said in his eulogy of it, that it would be one of the best pieces of legislation that had found their way ~n to the statute-book of Queens­land, but smce then both he and the· Chief Secretary have indicated that it is far from being as ~atisfactory as they would have this House thmk, and that amendments will be allowed during the Committee stages of the Bill. A good deal has been said by han. members on the Government side about the Bill, and. about the desire to give the fullest opportumty to every man and woman in Queensland to vote. I agree that it is the duty of any Government to allow the electors of the State to have the fullest privilege of exercising their vote when they get on the roll, but there IS the other privilege of which we must not lose sight--that every oppor­tunity should be given to every elector to q11alify to get on the roll and to vote and in this Bill we are not doing that. A ~near­ing rema~k was made by one hon. member 01} that s1de of the House last night about nomads-about ·the men who travel from one part of Queensland to another and may have to go outsld!) of Queensland to follow their occupations. I have had some experience of what the Western country is like. I know exactly how the shearers and labourers out there have to travel from 'one State to another, and in this Bill, as it is submitted to us, these men will be deprived of their right to get on the roll. And is there any han. member hero who thinks it is a fair thing to do that to the men who by their work have pioneered Queensland ? There is no bodv of men-and I think you know that as wei! as any other hon. member in this House, Mr. Speaker-who are so hospitable and have done so much to develop Queensland as the Western workers and the miners of Queens­land. The same thing applies to those who are engaged in the sugar industry, and yet

we are told that the Government is going to amend the electoral law. by providing that where a month previously was sufficient to enable an elector to transfer from one elec­torate to another, now it is- going to be two months. That, perhaps, will not affect the town workers so much, or myself as a candi­date in the town; but I am not eoncerned about myself so much as I am about the men who are in the outside districts and want to exercise their franchise. A challenge was thrown out to-night that the police were going round the electorates crossing out nam.cs from the rolls, but the Home Secretary saig that they wer.e instructed to put names on. Now, that is absolutely untrue. I know that the police came to my house to see whether the names were on the roll, or whether there were any names to be struck off, and they said that they had no authority to put names on the roll-that their orders were to cross off the names of people who had left.

OPPOSITION MEMBERS: Hear, hear ! Quite right.

At 10.40 p.m.,

The CHAIRMAN OF CoMMITTEES (Mr. Stodart, Logan) relieved the Speaker in the chair.

Mr. BOWMAN (continujng) said: I do not object to the police knocking off the roll the names of those who have left the electorate for which they are enrolled, bu.t I think the Government would do well to follow tho example set them by a former Premier, .Mr. R;idston, who authorised the police to perform the function of putting names on the roll as well as knocking off the names of perwns who became disqualified for a particular electorate. A good deal has been said about the recent Commonwealth election. The inquiry made by the Federal authorities· proves beyond doubt that the ideas of hon. members opposite with regard to the alleged duplication of votes and cor­ruption during that election are imaginary, as the evidence shows that the percentage of duplicated votes w·as small. \Ve have had similar things in connection with our State elections; but in view of the overwhelming defeat hon. members opposite suffered at the last Federal election, they desire to spike the guns of the Labour supporters and pre­vent them repeating at the next State elec­tion what they did at the recent Federal election. That is the motive which has in­fluenced the Government in introducing this Bill. We might very well follow the simple method of putting names on the roll adopted by the Commonwealth. lJnder that system a person has simply to fill in a card and post it to the electoral registrar for the district, and he is then entitled to have his nama put on the roll. The postal vote has been very fully discussed during the course of this debate, and members· opposite have said a good deal by way of interjection as to the attitude they are now taking up as com­pared with their action in supporting the repeal of the postal vote. No one knows better than many members opposite what abuses were perpetrated under the postal vote system, .and how the system was con­demned by members on both sides of the House. I was one of those who voted for the postal vote in the first instance, but after seeing what took'. place in the metropolitan area, and hearing from other tp.embers what took place in the North, particularly in

Mr. Bowman.l

1156 Elections Acts [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Hill.

Charters Towers, I came to the conclusion that it was a soandal to any legislative body to allow such a system of voting to continue.

Mr. MA<;:ROSSAN: Why did you vote for it in the first instance?

Mr. BOWMAN: Because I believed that the principle was a good one, and that it would give an opportunity to vote to those who could not otherwise exerci~e the fran· chise.

Mr. MACROSSAN: Isn't the principle good now?

Mr. BOW:\iAN: I 'admit that, if we could have the postal vote system in operation without the abuses which were associated with it previously, the harm would not be as great as it was in the past. But, while prohibiting justices of the peace or the agents of any candidate from witnessing a postal ballot·paper, the Government propose that a pe1· on who is sick must have his paper certi· ficrl lo lF a medical practitioner or a quali· lied nurse.

Mr. MACROSSAN: Isn't that a safeguard?

Mr. BOWMAN: It may be a safeguard, but I suppose there are many constituents in tho hon. member's electorate who are too poor to pay lOs. 6d. or £1 ls. for a medi11al oertificate in order to vote.

Mr. MACROSSAN: I suppose they belong to lodges?

Mr. BOWMAN: Quite a number of them do not belong to any friendly society, and there are many others who may be unable to pay a medical fee in the event of their being sick. No one complains about the provision as applied to those who arc able to pay, but my contention is that it will inflict a hardship upon poor people. I am rGminded by tho hon. member for Mitchell that there are nlaces in the \Vest and North of Queensland ·where people would have to go many miles to get a medical man or a qualified nurse to witness a ballot-paper.

Hon, R. PHILP: What do you suggest?

Mr. BOWMAN: I suggest abolishing the provision altogether.

Mr. MACROSSAN: But you say the principle is good.

Mr. BO\VMAN: There are many prin· ciples which are good, but under which abuses are ofttimes committed, and the hon. member knows that just as well as I do. I do not think any complaints have been made with regard to the operation of the absentee vote during the last State election, and I believe it has enabled many men and women who were absent from their respective elec­torates to record their votes when they would otherwise have bccen unable to do so. Some hon. members may say there is a likelihood of abus"'S arising under that sys­tem. There is a likelihood of abuses occur­ring under almost any legislation we may pass; but I do not think there is one hon. member who can give half a dozen cases throughout the whole of Queensland where the absentee vote has acted against what is considered justice and fair play. I think that is one of the best systems, because a man can be here from \V estern Australia or Tas· mania, and he can exercise the franchise for the Senate or for the House of Representa-

f.,Mr. Bowman.

tives, which I think is an admirable oppor­tunity of giving those people the right to exercise the franchise on behalf of the men they thought would best serve them, and to get an expression of opinion. It is wise for the Government to consider that there is such a thing as fair play, and that while they may get a temporary advantage by introducing legislation of this kind. that it might recoil against them perhaps much stronger than they think. Apart from nam­ing any party in this House, I think the dPsire of the House should be to make the Bill as liberal and as broad as possible, so

. that everv nerson in Queensland who is over the age o.f twenty-one years should haYe the right and the easiest means of getting their namPS on the roll, and also the easiec<t means of exercising the franchise when their names are there.

Mr. MACROSSAN: That is •a very diffe•rent attitude to the last amendment proposed.

Mr. BOWMAN: I am giving expression to what I think is the best thing to do. and I only hope that the hon. member for Wind­sor will be one that will help to bring that about.

Mr. MACROSSAN: You may be sure he will.

Mr. BOWMAN: There are many ques· tions to be asked on the application form to get on the roll that I consider to be idiotic. The Government, when framing this Bill, went out of their way to make difficulties. When the Old Age Pensions Act was first passed, many questions were asked. The same applies to the Old Age Pensions Act at the present time, and I quite understand that it is necessary to prevent fraud, and to prevent a person who is not entitled to re· ceive the o!.d age pension from getting it. But, merely to get a vote. I think it is un· necessary to answer all ti..e questions con· tained in the Bill. The simpler the appli­cation form the better it will be for all con· cerned. There is another matter that I think is altogether wrong. Seeing that at the present time every State in the Common­wealth, with one exception, considers that six months' residence is a sufficiently long time for a person to be in the State before being able to exercise the franchise, I think we chould make the same provision in this Bill. Tho hon. member for Bowen, when speaking on this question, said: "We wanted to know what they we,.e like." Those that came here wnre strangers, and he wanted to know what the people were, and that they had a right to be here twelve months befor<> they were allowed to exercise the franchise. Ile stated the case of a business man, and ooid the same thing applied to persons who came here.

Mr. CAINE : I said they wanted to know something of the place.

Mr. BOWMAN: The Commonwealth he.s never que,tioned the number of immigrant• that have been brought to Australia as to what they are, any more than that they have to be oortified to by an elector or a justice of the peace, and I think six months is a suffi. ciently long time for any man or woman who comes to this State to remain here he­fore being entitled to get on the roll. Whv­keep them off for twelve months? ·

Elections Acts [3 SEPTEMBER.] Amendment Bill. 1157

Mr. CAINE: Why keep them off for six months 1

Hon. R. PHILP : Why keep them off for one month 1

Mr. BOWMA::\f: Simply because in all the States there is a. law which states that six months is a fair time for them to be kept off.

Mr. Ml.CROSSAN: Who passed th3 twelve months?

Mr. BOWMAN: I did not. Hon. R. PHILP: You supported it.

Mr. BOWMAN: I supported six months. I am not r<'sponsible for everything that Kidston did. I wa' one who supported the postal vote, because I believed it was right, but I arn opposing- it now because I know from experience what it may mean in the way of corruption during an ·election cam­paign.

Hon. R. PHILP : I do not.

;\;1r. BOWMAN: I think you got enough evidence• !rom some of your own supporters when that Bill was before the House to satisfy any living man. At any rate, we learn by experience, and I think that the knowledge th·.t we have of what the othc:r States are doing, and of what the Common­wealth arf' doing, is sufficient. \Yhv, we are following the Commonwealth system in regard to voting.

Han. R. PHILP: I am opposed to that.

;"vir. BOWMAN: I know you are opposed to it--

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. member must address his remarks to the Chair.

Mr. BOWMAN: I say the hon. member disagrees with the system of making a cross to bring our law into <:onformity with that of the Commonwealth, and he believes in using the pencil to rub the name out so that it will be totally obliterated. I believe the best thing is to try and get the whole of our State electDral laws on a par with the laws of the Commonwealth, because I believe that they are the simplest, I believ~; that they arc the best, and I believe that they arc the broadest that we have in anv part of Australia. I wish to move ·as an amendment that the words "read a second time" be omitted, with a view of inserting the word q withdre.wn."

Mt. GILDAY (Ithaca): I rise to second the amendment. I have listened with a good deal of attention to the variDus speeches that have been delivered in regard to the matter before us. When we analyse the attitude taken up b_y the various speakers-particu· larly those who a.re looked upon as political jugglers-we cannot expect to get much satis· faction from a Bill of this kind. It has been

brought in for one particular [11 p.m.] purpose-that is, for the present

Government to get a further lease of life in the near future. Last session there was no talk about intrDducing an amendment of the Elections Act, but since the last Federal election the GDvernment have come together to see if they can manipulate things to bring about a better result. The Home Secretary made statements in the deb<lte on the Address in Reply with regard to the cor-

ruption which took place at the Federal elec­tion; but I propose to quote the report of the Commonwealth Electoral Registrar on this matter. There are a good many features in the Bill which will mean the disfr.anchise­ment of a large number of the electors in Queensland. As the hon. member fDr Forti· tude Valley said, tlre ·western people are reluctantly compelled to move to different parts of the State to. earn a livelihood, and the sugar-workers and the workers in the meat industrv hetYC to do the same. A large number of people are away from here in the North for perhaps seven months in the year, and under the Bill thev will be disfranchised altogether. Instead of giving every person who is entitled to· vote an opportunity to vote, it is gDing tD prevent them from voting. TD show that thNe was no ground for the charge of corruption in ccmneotion with the Commonwealth election, which was made by the Home Secretary, I will quote a few extracts from the report of the Chief Elec­toral Registrar of the Commonwealth. The n•;Jort states-

" \Vhile the average number of apparent duplicatiDns is less than three per 1.000 voters, it will be noticed that in one divi­sion (Ballarat) the number reaches 175 in a poll of 32,818. and that in anDther division (:\Tacquario) the number falls tD eleven in a poll of 23,323."

In mv DWn electorate during tho State dec­lion we had something like thirteen double votes out of a total 'of 3,800 votes. The returning officer pointed out that it was C!nly the fact that the names were somewhat simi­lar that caused the duplications, and still it was a greater number than what there wore in the electorate of Ballarat in the Federal election. He goes on to say-

" \Vhile a margin of between two and three errors per 1, 000 voters wDuld not appear to be excessive, having regard to the number of similar names appearing on the rolls, it could not, of cDurse, be ac,sumed that, where the average is either above or below, fraud either has or has not entered into the elections.

. "In some divisions the whole of the apparent duplications could probably be cleared up without disclD•,ing any fraud. In other cases a prolonged investigation involving tho tracinp; of the movements on polling-day of tho persons concerned, would be necessary before an official pro­nouncement could be made."

The PREMIER: I rise to a point of. order. 'J'he point of order is that already an amend­ment has been movecl that tho word "now" be omitted, and the House has resolved that the word proposed to be omitted stan~ nart of tho question. Th" amendment was, That tlw Bill be read this day six months." I call att<mtion to Standing- Order 247, in which there are certain limitations given, which may be adopted by the House. It roads-

" Amendments may be propDsed to such question, by omitting the word 'now,' and at the end of the questiDn adding 'on this day three months,' 'on this day six months,; or any other time, or that the Bill be withdrawn or rejected."

The hon. member who moved the amend­

Han. D. F. Denham.]

1158 ElectionB Ac!s [ASSEMBLY.] Amendment Bill.

ment earlier in the evening did so, I presume, with the cognisance of his leader.

Mr. RYAN: To whom you did not give a chance to speak.

The PREMIER: The amendment was "That the Bill be read this day six months," and the House decided that the Bill should be now read a second time.

Mr. RYAN and OPP'OSITION MEMBERS: It did not.

The PREMIER: The House decided that the words proposed to be omitted should stand part of the question.

Mr. RYAN: That is the word "now." He is not moving to omit that now.

The PREMIER: It is quite competent for hon. members to discuss the second reading, but already the House has voted that it be read a second time. Now the motion is that it be rejected. My point of order is that the amendment is entirely out of order, the alternative having been selected.

Mr. RYAN: The only matter the House has decided so far is that the word " now " shall stand part of the question. It was pro­posed to omit that word, but the House has decided that it shall not be omitted. The present amendment is to omit the words '' a second time," and put in " withdrawn." That is to givo an opportunity of discussing points made by the han. member for Merthyr last night when he suggested that the Bill should be read this day six months. I do not wish to take advantage of the point of order to make the speech which I was prevented from making on the last amend­ment, except to say that I cannot understand why the Premier should have moved the "gag" on the last amendment when he saw that I wished to speak, when nobody had spoken on the amendment except the mover and seconder. 0£ course, if the leader of the Government is prepared to adopt tactics of that sort, he will have to be prepared to get paid rack with some of his own coin.

The HoME SECRETARY : A thre,<t?

Mr. RYAN: Not a threat, but a warning, because I ·am always prepared to be as rea­sonable as possible.

The PREMIER: Have I not been reasonable too?

Mr. RYAN: Not to-night, because the Treasurer has told the han. gentleman not to be. so. I was sitting beside the Premier last mght when the Treasurer interjected a certain . thints, and ~ho policy he then sug­gested .Is be.mg carrted out to-night. If that policy ts gomg to be adopted, wo will simply have to cut off negotiations between the leader of the Government and the leader of the Opposition, and just carry on the busi­ness "on our own," and the Premier will find that he will not get on with his business as well as he is now doing.

Mr. GRANT: With regard to the point of order, I agree this time with the Premier. "May," on page 471 of the 11th edition, says-

" The ordinary practice is to move an amendment to the question by leaving out the word ' now,' and adding ' three months,' ' six months,' or any other term beyond the probable duration of the ses-

[Hvn. D. F. Denham.

sian. The postponement of a Bill in this manner is regarded as the most cour· teous method of dismissing the Bill from further consideration, as the House has already ordered that the Bill shall be read a second time; and the amendment, imtead of reversing that order, merely appoints a more distant day for the second reading. The acceptance by the House of such an am~ndment bei.ng tantamount to the rejectiOn of the B.!ll, if the session extends beyond the periOd of poctponement, a Bill which .has been ordered to be read a second time upon that day ' three months ' is not replaced upon the notice-paper of the House."

Tho Opposition took the _usual wa:l; of at­tempting to disn:iss the ~Ill by mov!,ng that it be read " this day stx months. That amendment was rejected by the House, and therefore the present amendment is merely a repetition of the one which has already been moved.

Mr. RYAN: What do you think of the last ruling 1

Mr. GRANT: I have my own opmwn about the last ruling; but in this matter I think the Premier is right, and that this is mere! v an obstructive motion, and that it is entirely out of order, seeing that the pre­vious amendment was rejected by the House.

Mr. HARDACRE: It is quite tr'!e that the previous amendment has been disposed of. An amendment to read a Bill "this day six months " is the usual oourteous method of disposing of a Bill, but it is not the only method and we are entitled to adopt any or all of the methods set forth in Standing Order 247. The amendment which has just be_en moved is quite differ~nt from the. last. If the Bill is withdrawn, It may be remt.ro· duced during this session. The Standmg Orders of the House of Commons only 17pply when our own Standing Orders are silent, and on this point our Standing Orde:s are not silent at all. I would call attention to the fact that the first word in Standing Order 247 is plural-" Amendments." Any or aU of tho•e methods may be adopted.

The PREMIER: No-they are merely alter­natives.

Mr. HARDACRE: They are not alterna­tives. We may adopt any of them.

The H011E SECRETARY : The effect is the same.

Mr. HARDACRE: There might be certain reasons why one of them should bG reject~d, but there might be reasons for adoptmg: another of them. Standing Order 248 says--

" Any other amendment may be pro· posed to such question provided that the­amendment is strictly relevant to the­Bill."

So that all the different forms of amendment are open to us.

Mr. MACROSSAN' The Standing Orde_r to which the Premier has referred is obv:I­ouslv bBing nsed on the present occasion fol" a p;:,rpose for which it was never intendeq. If this amendment be not out of order, .rt will be quite in order to move that the Br!I be rejected.

Mr. RYAN: A motion that it be "now'" rejected would be in order.

Elections Acts (3 SEPTEMBER,] Amendment Bill. 1159

Mr. MAC,ROSSAN: Although this House has affirmatrvely pronounced that the Bill be not postponed at all. but that it " be now read a second time? ;,

Mr. RYAN: The House has not decided that question.

Mr. M~CROSSAN: The words proposed to be omrtted were " the Bill be now read a second time."

Mr. RYAN: No-only to omit the word "now."

Mr. MACROSSAN : The amendment was " That the Bill be read this day six months "; and the House having affirmed that .the .word " now " stand part of the questron, rt has said that " the Bill shall be now read a second time," otherwise what was the use of affirming that the word " now " shall be left. in? Now, notwithstanding the fac~ that thrs House has affirmed that it is desrrable to now read the Bill a second time that i~ may be proceeded with now member~ opposr~e say that it is in order to ;nove that th~ Brll be w;thdTawn, or that the Bill be reJected, or th!Lt it may be read this day three months.

Mr. RYA.N: It is in order to move that it be now wrthdrawn.

Mr. MACROSSAN: Precisely, although you have ha1 a pronouncement by the House ?n the questwn. The word " now " remains . m, and that means that the second reading must now be proceeded with.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order ! The hon. member must address the Chair.

Mr. MACROSSAN: Notwithstanding the fact that th1s House has affirmed the desir· ability of leaving in the word "now " or that this ,Uous~ shall immediately proc~ed to the consrderatron of the second reading of the Brll r.row, members opposite say that it is strll rrght for the House in contravention of their own affirmation, t'o say that the Bill should be withdrawn. I have been referred to "May," page 294, which says~-

Mr. Mc(_JORMAC~: The Premier has given you your mstructrons.

Mr. MACROSSAN: Yes; and, unlike the h.on. member, I am not above taking instruc· twns, from those able to give them. (Hear, hear :) "lYlay" says~-

" In the case of the second reading or other stage of a Bill, however, it is not allowed to add words to a question after the House has decided that the words proposed to be left out shall stand part of it."

GovERNMENT ME:UBERS: Hear, hear !

Mr. MACROSSAN : That seems decisive and conclusive.

Mr. RYAN: Vfc are not adding words to it.

Mr. MACROSSAN : You are adding the words '' that the Bill be now withdrawn.''

Mr. FIHELL Y : I would just like to add o~1e sr;1all item. The Chief Secretary with h;s pm_nt of or:der rs perfectly logical from h1s pornt of new. He mstructed the late speaker on one particular point last session,

and he said that what the late speaker said was piffie-mero piffie.

Mr. MACROSSAN : That is quite worthy of you.

Mr. LARCOMBE: I think the Premier is very discourteous by raising his point of order against the hon. member for Ithaca, because that hon. gentleman was also speak­ing to the main question.

The PREMIER: He can still do that. His opportunity to speak on the main question still remains.

Mr. LARCOMBE: I suggest that you de· fer your ruling, Mr. Speaker, until after tho hon. member for Ithaca has spoken.

The DEP'CTY SPEAKER: I have listened attentively to the arguments on both sides, and I have no hesitation in saying that I rule the amendm.0nt out of order.

GoVERNMENT MEMBERS: Hear, hear! At 11.25 p.m.,

. Tho SPEAKER resumed the chair.

Mr. GILDAY: I understand that I can now take up my .remarks on the main que£· tion, and I intend to take my full time.

The PRE :IllER: We are not concerned about that. ·

Mr. GILDAY: All kinds oi tactics have been used by members opposite to prevent us from following the ordinary line of discus· sion .

Lieut .. Colonel RANKIN interjected.

Mr. GILDAY: The hon. member for Burrum has lost his punch since Mr. Cecil Roberts has brought him into line, and the noble thirteen are whipping the Govemment along as fast as they can. A good deal has been said by the hon. member for ToWIJ,S· ville about what the Labour party did m 1908 in reference to the Dunwich vote and what the Labour party did in connection with legislation at that time, but we find to·day that the country party are forcing the -Go· vernment for all they are worth wrth regard to legislation that suits themselves. vVhen members on this side were speaking on thi~ question they were heckled by the Home Secretary, and I would like to give some quotations from where I knocked ofl' when the Prcnlicr roAe to his point of order to refute what the Han. the Home Secretary said. Sen<ttor Pearce, speaking in regard to the recent Federal election, aaid-

" I have obtained from the Electoral Office and from the Census Olliee the actual number of names on the rolls in the one case, and a rough and approxi· mate estimatn of the number of adults who were entitled to be enrolled for the last election in the other. I find that in New South \Vales the number of electors on the certified !isis at 31st May last was 1,036,187, whereas tho adult population was 970,000, an excrc's of 66,187, or 6~ per cent. In Victoria, the number of electors on the certified lists was 830,391, whereas the population was set down at 768,000, an excess of 62,391, or 7 k per cent."

I think these figures will prove that what the Home Secretary said was incorrect.

When a Minister gets up and [11.30 a.m.] makes statements like that with·

out showing the grounds he has for making them he should get up and with­draw them when they are refuted. (Hear,

Mr. Gilday 1

1160 Elections A t '• et :., Bill. [A.SSEMBLY.] Adjournment.

hear!) In r<efercnce to the residence: qualifi­cation in this Bill, I am given to understand that an amendment will bo mo 1·ed to alter that. Still, we have to deal ''··ith the Bill as it is before us at tho present time. I think it is a crying shame for any Minister to suggest such a qualification as we find in this Bill. It means that a man who had to re­n•ove from one lodging-houoe to another three or four times in a year, notwithstand­ing that he is living in the same ekctorate, will have absolutely no chance of getting on the roll.

The IIo •,m SECRETARY: The han. member knows that that is not correct, b0caum it specifically says that it need not be in one particular part of the electoratD.

Mr. GILDAY: But suppose that he lives in a street one side of which is in one electora to and the other side in aaothcr, is it not pos­sible that he cannot get on the roll? 'I'ho object of this Bill is to deprive what ma-,- be called the bird of pas~-ab'~ of a vot·e, I k!1ow that the llomc Secretrrrv is fairlv gou.l u,t a little bit of bluff, and I 'can ·endorse what the hon. HHU:~ bPr for Paddington said in regard to hi,; n·rytarb at tho F'losi; •r01 election. He uocd words at Engclburg which I do not think =yone else would usc under such circum­stances, and one of his own supporters told us that he did not tlunk much of the state­ment made by the hon. member. I think that this pa~ty is as temperat~ as any party in Austra}1a. How~ver, that 1s only by the way. Now, m connectiOn with the provisions relat­ing to getting on the roll, I wonder that a subclause has not been proposed to take the finger-prints of all claimants, because when you come to analyse the qucstior.:; that are put to them and see how many there arc of them, it must appear that the Government has . forgo.tten that particular one. In con­nec~IOn wrth th: Federal elections, it is much easr~r for an eJector to get on the roll, and I thmk that thrs Government would be doing the right thing if they copied moru from the Commonwealth law. It is a Parliament that has a great many more p(·ople to deal with than we have, and a great deal more monev to snend, t•nd yet have this Governmen't ridiculing: their electoral Ia ws and bringing in thrs P· rl1P'lOUS amnrdment to try to make th., law . wo have worse than it is at present. I thmk th~t th.e sooner we have uniformity the better rt wrll be for Queensland. Everv­body admits that the number of electors wlio vnted at the last Federal election in (lueens­land was .a credit. to the people of Queens­land, partrcularly the numbers of those who voted for Labour candidates. But I suppose that is all the more reason why we find the Govr•rnment ini~iating a; sc~reme to try to pre­vent tb.at occurrmg agam rn the near future. There 1s no doubt that the reason for the Bill is a d:·siro to hoodwink the electors and make it possible- to use intimidation. It has been said that intimidation was not used under the postal vote provisions on a previous occasion but I know for a positive fact that ther~ were factories in Brisbane where it was used and the "'?Pl?yers comp~lled the employee~ to vote therr trcket-the L1beral ticket or tho conservative ticket, as it should be call~d. \Vo have the Minister in charge of this Bill say­ing that he desires that evervbody should have a vote in Queensland, ancf another hon. member· stating that the rolls should be cleared. There is no doubt about that. He wanted to clear t)re rolls of all those por­S?ns who were gomg to vote the socialistic trcket. If those are the tactics of a Liberal ,Government, I think that the sooner ParlL:

[Mr. Gilday.

ment is dissolved the better. We know from the speeches of Liberal members that corruption did exist under the postal-vote provisions, and that fact should bo quite enough to convince a man of con1mon sense that it should not be repeated. \1 hy are hon. members on the Government side so silent on this question? I expected to hear a good deal from the hon. member for Wind­sor, who took a great interest in the point of ord,•r, and I think that, when he votes, he will be found on this side-just as be has voted on this side of the House before. I have no desire to labour this question any longer, but I re"ret that more has not been said by members on the Government side. Apparently, members on that sido are good as voters, but, unfortunately, they do not express their opinions as freely as they might.

Question-That the Bill be now read a' sr•cond time-put; and the. House divided:­

Ans, ill!. Mr. Appr! ,, Barnes, G. P. , Barnes, '\V. H. ,. BPbbington

BPI! Blair BookPr

,, Bouchard , Bridges ,, Caine , Corser, B. H.

Cribb ,. Denham ,. Forsyth ., Grayson

Gunn ,, Kessell

Luke Tellers: Mr. Gunn

NoEs, Mr. Adamson

Barber Bertram Bowman

,. Coyne Fihelly

Mr. Mackay Mackintosh 1\facrossan

, }.forgan , Faget

Petrie ,. Philp

nankin , J{oberh

Somerset ,, Stevens

Stodart , .Swayne , Tolmie

Trout Walker

,, 'Vhite

and Mr. Kessell.

21. Mr. Hunter , lluxha.m

Land Larcornbn

, McCormack O'Sulli"an Payuo

;: Ryan , ThC"odore

Winstanley

, Foley Gilday Gillies Hamilton Hardacre Tellers: Mr. Gillies and Mr. Hamilton.

PAIRS.

AyC's-1\Ir. '\Villiams, Mr. Doug]as, Mr. Macart· nPy, and Mr. Crawford.

Nops-:\fr. LPnnon, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Kin\~an, and Mr. May.

Resolved in the affirmative. The committal of the Bill was made an

Order of the Day for to-morrow.

RABBIT BILL. MESSAGE FROM COUNCIL.

The SPEAKER reported the receipt of a message from the Council returning this Bill with amendments.

On the motion of the SECRETj.RY FOR PL.:BLIC LANDS (Hon. J. Tolmie, 1'oo­u·oont•ba), the consid<>ration of the message was made an Order of the Day for to-morrow.

ADJOURNMENT. The PREMIER: I moYe that the House

do now adjourn. The first business to­morrow will be the resumption of Committoe of Supply for the consideration of the Finan­cial Statement.

Question put and passed. The House adjourned at fourteen minutes

to 12 o'clock.